Advanced TEE..no cardiac fellowship

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I am enjoying this conversation. Something I am very passionate about. I work in academics
and I do cardiac and echo. VADs ecmo transplants cabg valves. Do it all. I did not do an accredited cardiac fellowship. Finished fellowship last July. I have it pretty good where I am at currently, I realize that. If I were to look for a new job and they said I needed to be certified I would laugh. My CV training was excellent. My echo training second to none. I could mop the floor with a recent CV fellowship grad.

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DrBeaker -

I also finished fellowship last July. I also do all those things you listed in your current practice. Why would you mop the floor with me?
 
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DrBeaker -

I also finished fellowship last July. I also do all those things you listed in your current practice. Why would you mop the floor with me?

I did NO fellowship, and I'll mop the floor with both of you bitches.
 
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Full of janitors around here. ;)
 
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Meant it more as just because I didn't do the accredited fellowship, doesn't mean I can't do cardiac/echo.
 
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I think it is certainly possible to do hearts/tee without a fellowship, but there is no sense in arguing bc changes are here to stay. I am very glad to have invested the extra yr and will recommend it for current grads. Def better job opportunities with the fellowship.
 
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I am enjoying this conversation. Something I am very passionate about. I work in academics
and I do cardiac and echo. VADs ecmo transplants cabg valves. Do it all. I did not do an accredited cardiac fellowship. Finished fellowship last July. I have it pretty good where I am at currently, I realize that. If I were to look for a new job and they said I needed to be certified I would laugh. My CV training was excellent. My echo training second to none. I could mop the floor with a recent CV fellowship grad.

Is your fellowship in cardiac? Just non acgme. Is it in CCM?
 
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So you did a cardiac fellowship, but not ACGME accredited?

If so, I really don't understand your point

BTW, my training was also "second to none"

Cardiac/echo with more on the echo side I guess. We don't have an ACGME fellowship yet. It's in the works.
 
I am enjoying this conversation. Something I am very passionate about. I work in academics
and I do cardiac and echo. VADs ecmo transplants cabg valves. Do it all. I did not do an accredited cardiac fellowship. Finished fellowship last July. I have it pretty good where I am at currently, I realize that. If I were to look for a new job and they said I needed to be certified I would laugh. My CV training was excellent. My echo training second to none. I could mop the floor with a recent CV fellowship grad.

Where I work, we would make an exception for someone like you based on work history and the fact that you have done a fellowship, provided you have passed the advanced PTEexam. However for the OP and those deciding now it is better to do an ACGME accredited fellowship so you can get NBE certified.
 
Everyone thinks their echo training was second to none. I'm not sure how anyone even comes to that conclusion?
 
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I was being purely sarcastic. Forgot the stupid emoji

Definitely a running joke around here about every program is second to none
 
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besides an oversized ego, what makes one's echo training, "second to none"?
 
I disagree that a cardiac fellowship is required to do TEE and big excellent at it. Its physics but not rocket science. The practical ability to learn to diagnose valvular issues is easy, deciding if its P1 or P2 can get more complicated, but a good surgeon relies more on what he sees in vivo than the TEE. Myself and all of my cardiac Anesthesia colleagues have learned TEE in practice and have passed the advanced exam. The decisions on whether to replace or repair a mitral or when to ring the TV in the setting of Mitral disease are currently being tested in the literature and have nothing to do with ones ability to acquire an image. Having asked for a second opinion from a cardiologist on rare occasions have proved less than useful as they are often even less skilled at TEE than we are.

IN my opinion the certification rule regarding needing to do a fellowship was only to give weight to the fellowship. Every surgeon over 50 has had to learn while in practice how to do new things i.e. robotics, laparoscopic colectomies, TAVR. Not one of them went back to do a formal fellowship.

Also what is a cardiac anesthesia fellowship really? It a year when you spend reading, doing hundreds 0f exams and having mentors to bounce questions off of. Sounds like how my first couple of years of working in private practice.

Anesthesia has created a standard which will only serve to push older providers out, when they decline to pursue the pursuit of paperwork. We , modern america, seem more focused on documentation of purported skill than actual skill. Although the trend is moving toward looking at clinical outcomes.

I agree with this very much.

I'm admittedly biased because I do mostly bread and butter (occasional dual valve with low EF) cardiac without a fellowship. Eventually, I'll attempt testamur but I realize it will take a lot of work.

I also think the surgical analogy is perfectly applicable. Robotic thoracoscopy? You think that guy did a "fellowship" in robotic surgery? No, he/she embraced a new modality/tool. We are, in some ways, shooting ourselves in the foot on some of these issues.

Also, I'm in the MidWest, and aside from the major centers, most of the cardiac being done out in the community (with some very good surgeons mind you) are done by people without a fellowship. That's just my bias, but also experience.
 
Doing both fellowships back-to-back is becoming more common. When I interviewed at Wash-U for CCM, most of my interview group were interested in the dual-fellowship track. With increasing interest in the current product, programs have no incentive to invent creative solutions that only benefit the applicant. I would love to do an 18 month dual fellowship, and save six months, but that's not going to happen now.

This thread is rather depressing, by the way. When I was a resident, quite a few of my attendings at the three hospitals where I did CT rotations were not CT fellowship trained, but just had a strong interest or did six months as resident, like I did. I thought that was the norm, and that practice model would still be open when I got out. I've spent the last three years, and a fair bit of money, teaching myself a new skill, and getting better at doing hearts on my own, but the general consensus here is that it's all for naught. If I want to keep cardiac as part of my practice when I leave the Army, I'll have to do a second fellowship.

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Not necessarily. Look at the opportunity cost. I will never say having a fellowship is a waste of time or will "hurt you" from a clinical perspective. But, I also don't necessarily think it will make you good, if you aren't already. It will improve on your fundamental abilities to be sure, and in most cases (as in Cardiac, ICU, Pain) they will give you new skills.

My issue with cardiac is that while it's an extra year of very good cardiac training, MOSTLY, it seems to be about becoming certified in a TOOL. i.e. Echo. It's just a tool, and let's be real, the hot shot echo stuff isn't that practical. Any good surgeon (looking at the damn valve) is going to use his/her decision making, while relying less on TEE. Perhaps the younger generation of cardiac surgeons may rely more on TEE than the older guys. I can see that.

I just think that if you are GOOD at cardiac and have decent or good TEE skills, you shouldn't be prohibited from using that TOOL for such cases, just like the General Surgeon (no fellowship) we have today doing his Robotic Cholectomy shouldn't be prohibited from doing so because of lack of fellowship in minimally invasive or robotic for that matter. The guy is good. Let him do his job. Same for us.
 
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Not necessarily. Look at the opportunity cost. I will never say having a fellowship is a waste of time or will "hurt you" from a clinical perspective. But, I also don't necessarily think it will make you good, if you aren't already. It will improve on your fundamental abilities to be sure, and in most cases (as in Cardiac, ICU, Pain) they will give you new skills.

My issue with cardiac is that while it's an extra year of very good cardiac training, MOSTLY, it seems to be about becoming certified in a TOOL. i.e. Echo. It's just a tool, and let's be real, the hot shot echo stuff isn't that practical. Any good surgeon (looking at the damn valve) is going to use his/her decision making, while relying less on TEE. Perhaps the younger generation of cardiac surgeons may rely more on TEE than the older guys. I can see that.

I just think that if you are GOOD at cardiac and have decent or good TEE skills, you shouldn't be prohibited from using that TOOL for such cases, just like the General Surgeon (no fellowship) we have today doing his Robotic Cholectomy shouldn't be prohibited from doing so because of lack of fellowship in minimally invasive or robotic for that matter. The guy is good. Let him do his job. Same for us.

What is the impractical hot echo stuff you are referring too?

3-D? I do find it practical and easy to use on an every day basis.
 
Not necessarily. Look at the opportunity cost. I will never say having a fellowship is a waste of time or will "hurt you" from a clinical perspective. But, I also don't necessarily think it will make you good, if you aren't already. It will improve on your fundamental abilities to be sure, and in most cases (as in Cardiac, ICU, Pain) they will give you new skills.

My issue with cardiac is that while it's an extra year of very good cardiac training, MOSTLY, it seems to be about becoming certified in a TOOL. i.e. Echo. It's just a tool, and let's be real, the hot shot echo stuff isn't that practical. Any good surgeon (looking at the damn valve) is going to use his/her decision making, while relying less on TEE. Perhaps the younger generation of cardiac surgeons may rely more on TEE than the older guys. I can see that.

I just think that if you are GOOD at cardiac and have decent or good TEE skills, you shouldn't be prohibited from using that TOOL for such cases, just like the General Surgeon (no fellowship) we have today doing his Robotic Cholectomy shouldn't be prohibited from doing so because of lack of fellowship in minimally invasive or robotic for that matter. The guy is good. Let him do his job. Same for us.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Let's not go trying to encourage people to invent more uses for the robot that don't actually benefit the patient. Okay?
 
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Not necessarily. Look at the opportunity cost. I will never say having a fellowship is a waste of time or will "hurt you" from a clinical perspective. But, I also don't necessarily think it will make you good, if you aren't already. It will improve on your fundamental abilities to be sure, and in most cases (as in Cardiac, ICU, Pain) they will give you new skills.

My issue with cardiac is that while it's an extra year of very good cardiac training, MOSTLY, it seems to be about becoming certified in a TOOL. i.e. Echo. It's just a tool, and let's be real, the hot shot echo stuff isn't that practical. Any good surgeon (looking at the damn valve) is going to use his/her decision making, while relying less on TEE. Perhaps the younger generation of cardiac surgeons may rely more on TEE than the older guys. I can see that.

I just think that if you are GOOD at cardiac and have decent or good TEE skills, you shouldn't be prohibited from using that TOOL for such cases, just like the General Surgeon (no fellowship) we have today doing his Robotic Cholectomy shouldn't be prohibited from doing so because of lack of fellowship in minimally invasive or robotic for that matter. The guy is good. Let him do his job. Same for us.

How often do your echo findings influence the procedure? What specific things do your surgeons ask you for prior to the case? It may be cultural where I am, but our surgeons like to know our findings and I've seen the entire case changed or even cancelled. The TTE, in some patients is not great.
 
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Meant it more as just because I didn't do the accredited fellowship, doesn't mean I can't do cardiac/echo.

A non accredited fellowship is also a different scenario than someone right out of residency who is going to pick up the echo skills on the job. I've seen people that never did any type of fellowship, but over the years taught themselves echo. I would argue though, that just like someone else pointed out, how many patients suffered / inaccurate assessments were made because of the learning curve during the years spent to get up to speed.
 
How often do your echo findings influence the procedure? What specific things do your surgeons ask you for prior to the case? It may be cultural where I am, but our surgeons like to know our findings and I've seen the entire case changed or even cancelled. The TTE, in some patients is not great.

This is my experience as well.
 
Out of curiosity, how many non-fellowship trained folks out there are fascile with 3D and guide their proceduralists in the cath lab?

If you don't currently, would you feel comfortable guiding mitraclips, watchmann, trancsther mitral and tricuspid, fixing perivalvular leaks, etc?
 
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This is my experience as well.

I point this out only because I feel like the sentiment from prior posts is "ah just look at the squeeze and make sure there isn't any color flow going the wrong way....any other details can be figured out by a good surgeon"

Which I disagree with.
 
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I could mop the floor with a recent CV fellowship grad.

With your echo skills?

If you are leaps and bounds ahead of where a recent CT grad is in terms of echo knowledge, then that means there is a high level of echo skill to achieve. Which means means that it takes a dedicated year, then years of experience, dedication, and the volume to get there. Which somewhat goes against much of the sentiment on this thread.

If you mean clinical skills, then that's a different story.
 
I will be eating chips n donuts in the lounge while you guys are mopping the floor with each other.
 
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Out of curiosity, how many non-fellowship trained folks out there are fascile with 3D and guide their proceduralists in the cath lab?

If you don't currently, would you feel comfortable guiding mitraclips, watchmann, trancsther mitral and tricuspid, fixing perivalvular leaks, etc?

I don't currently, nor would I feel comfortable doing so. I have no reservations admitting that.

I would submit, however, that those are not (yet??) common in the community and I would guess that most of those are being done at larger, tertiary care institutions. Of which there are many. But, there are many more places out in the community doing more routine cases, and even if they wanted to, they would have difficulty recruiting a cards fellowed doc. Not to mention those docs in the community doing hearts would balk at the idea that they are suddenly "unqualified".

However, should the case acuity/procedural acuity become out of sync with the skill level of the doc, then efforts to obtain those skills would and should occur, and if that means a fellowed doc, then so be it.
 
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I don't currently, nor would I feel comfortable doing so. I have no reservations admitting that.

I would submit, however, that those are not (yet??) common in the community and I would guess that most of those are being done at larger, tertiary care institutions. Of which there are many. But, there are many more places out in the community doing more routine cases, and even if they wanted to, they would have difficulty recruiting a cards fellowed doc. Not to mention those docs in the community doing hearts would balk at the idea that they are suddenly "unqualified".

However, should the case acuity/procedural acuity become out of sync with the skill level of the doc, then efforts to obtain those skills would and should occur, and if that means a fellowed doc, then so be it.


I believe that structural heart/cath lab procedural volume will grow and surgical volume will continue to decline. Which will require a higher level of "echo skill".

I also believe that most of what we have assumed to be true based 2-D metrics/measurements is false and 3-D will be more heavily emphasized in the future guidelines. Also will require a little more advanced skill.

In regards to the routine community cases, I understand the natural response to "balk" at the idea that they can't do those cases. At the very least, it creates a headache for the group. BUT...I think we have to look at why the hospital admin or AMCs are asking the groups to have ct fellowship trained docs with echo skills covering their cardiac cases. In some instances I'm sure it's BS, but I bet there are places out there where the "routine" cardiac case turned out not to be so routine. And at some point the surgeon wanted the answer to a clinical question that hinged on the tee findings. And when the doc who does basic tee couldn't answer, then the surgeon went and complained. Or maybe something was blatantly missed on the echo and that caused the surgeon to start pointing fingers.
 
I believe that structural heart/cath lab procedural volume will grow and surgical volume will continue to decline. Which will require a higher level of "echo skill".

I also believe that most of what we have assumed to be true based 2-D metrics/measurements is false and 3-D will be more heavily emphasized in the future guidelines. Also will require a little more advanced skill.

3D may become more important in the future. But as technology improves it may actually take less skill. There's no reason a computer can't be taught to do a lot of what we do. Do I really need to draw the line on the lvot velocity curve? Also the modeling continues to improve. I could see in the future pushing a button and getting an accurate ef or a valve area.
 
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I believe that structural heart/cath lab procedural volume will grow and surgical volume will continue to decline. Which will require a higher level of "echo skill".

I also believe that most of what we have assumed to be true based 2-D metrics/measurements is false and 3-D will be more heavily emphasized in the future guidelines. Also will require a little more advanced skill.

In regards to the routine community cases, I understand the natural response to "balk" at the idea that they can't do those cases. At the very least, it creates a headache for the group. BUT...I think we have to look at why the hospital admin or AMCs are asking the groups to have ct fellowship trained docs with echo skills covering their cardiac cases. In some instances I'm sure it's BS, but I bet there are places out there where the "routine" cardiac case turned out not to be so routine. And at some point the surgeon wanted the answer to a clinical question that hinged on the tee findings. And when the doc who does basic tee couldn't answer, then the surgeon went and complained. Or maybe something was blatantly missed on the echo and that caused the surgeon to start pointing fingers.

I'm never going to be the guy that says a certified advanced perioperative echo with fellowship is a bad way to go. Quite the opposite. I'm simply saying that there are many of us out in the community who do hearts, and doing rather well.

Where I trained, the TAVRs and clips were done by the cardiologists (the TEE).. Not sure if it's still that way. I don't have all the answers, and I sure don't have a crystal ball.

I do agree with the other post below that indeed further technology can make many aspects of TEE automated, and thus more accessible, and not less. But, I can also see a point when that information becomes almost moot as the ultimate determinant of outcome is surgical technique/technology, and the surgeon his/herself. That's just my opinion.
 
I've definitely noticed the younger surgeons tend to be more reliant on TEE findings than the older ones.
I'm sure technology will make TEE easier at some point, needing less human skill.
 
I point this out only because I feel like the sentiment from prior posts is "ah just look at the squeeze and make sure there isn't any color flow going the wrong way....any other details can be figured out by a good surgeon"

Which I disagree with.

I think this is colored by the types of cases being done. I work at a place now where we do very few chip shots, there's no way I would survive here without the echo training. My previous job (before fellowship) had no advanced certified docs, the surgeons were old school and didn't care much about the echo. They also heavily selected out the patients who were even remotely complicated and sent them to the academic place down the road.
 
My issue with cardiac is that while it's an extra year of very good cardiac training, MOSTLY, it seems to be about becoming certified in a TOOL. i.e. Echo.

It's interesting that you mention that. When I was looking for a cardiac fellowship program, I got the feeling that I could put almost every program pretty firmly into one of two categories:
1) an echo fellowship
2) a cardiac anesthesia fellowship
 
Throwback Thursday, ok.

In reply to anes121508s posts, I would be interested to hear how many anesthesiologists, period, are good at 3D TEE. I'm rather facile, myself, but recognize that I haven't done the echo for interventional cardiology procedures, so would have to observe or have assistance with several before I felt comfortable enough going solo. I would say the same about some other things like floating my own CS cannula under TEE guidance. It's not that I can't do it, it's that I haven't done it before, but understand the anatomy and principles, so would have to ask for help for a few to get comfortable. Interestingly, I am far more facile with 3D echo (and some of the 'newer' things like diastology) than my former colleague who completed CT fellowship from a very highly regarded program years ago. The point in that statement is that not every practicing CT fellowship trained anesthesiologist learned these things when they became mainstream after they finished fellowship, yet those anesthesiologists are allowed to be certified, while guys like me are not. Procedures (like TEE) can be learned by anyone with the time and desire to do so (it may just take longer, as in my case, as I wasn't doing hearts every single day).

Regarding job prospects, in the year since I wrote my last post in this thread, I've found several practices that continue to have generalists do basic CABGs, valves, TAVR, Watchman, etc.

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It's interesting that you mention that. When I was looking for a cardiac fellowship program, I got the feeling that I could put almost every program pretty firmly into one of two categories:
1) an echo fellowship
2) a cardiac anesthesia fellowship
Let me fix that for you: "2) a cardiac anesthesia fellowship residency".
 
In a true fellowship, the fellow functions mostly as a junior attending, directing residents and intervening only when they need help. That was my CCM fellowship (and many others'). Centering the fellowship on thinking and seeing as much as possible, not just manually doing, allows the fellow to be exposed to much more pathology and decisional experience. (We also had hundreds of hours for reading during my fellowship. Priceless.)

What I am beginning to see in ACTA fellowships is more along the lines of "superresidency", where the fellow is a glorified resident who just does cases. Fellowship is the time to focus on advanced TEE and case management, not to sit cases, IMO.
 
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In a true fellowship, the fellow functions mostly as a junior attending, directing residents and intervening only when they need help. That was my CCM fellowship (and many others'). Centering the fellowship on thinking and seeing as much as possible, not just manually doing, allows the fellow to be exposed to much more pathology and decisional experience. (We also had hundreds of hours for reading during my fellowship. Priceless.)

What I am beginning to see in ACTA fellowships is more along the lines of "superresidency", where the fellow is a glorified resident who just does cases. Fellowship is the time to focus on advanced TEE and case management, not to sit cases, IMO.

I have no doubt that what you're saying is true of CCM fellowships. Critical care is by its nature the care of many patients in parallel, and there's surely far more value for a fellow in the thinking and decision making ,rather than direct care of the patients in the rooms. The residents, interns, students, NPs, etc should be doing the information gathering, consult chasing, scut work, and most of the procedures.

I feel that cardiac is different and I deliberately chose a program where I would not be supervising. (I'd also spent the previous years supervising residents as an attending, and wanted some alone time, so to speak.) A cardiac fellowship where the fellow actively supervises two residents at a time, increasing the number of cases the fellow is exposed to over the year, might have some advantages. But that doesn't actually appear to be the reality of the "supervisory" cardiac fellowships. The ones I talked to and visited had the fellows supervising one case at a time ... and you know what the fellows did when they weren't in the room? Had pretty relaxed days.

The advertised "value" of the supervisory programs was more time out of the OR during "boring" periods. But you know what? Much of anesthesia training is preparing for rare events, and avoiding them, and recognizing them quickly when they do occur, and handling them on your feet. And you've got to be present to experience these events during training. I think we go a little overboard dismissing the stool-sitters, and I think every new grad would benefit from some time when they're doing their own cases solo and just have time in the OR.

I'm a little weird in that I refuse almost every break I get offered. But I can't tell you how many times this year I've declined a break only to have a decision point, small or large, come up minutes later. Even during "boring" periods when nothing is supposed to happen. There's just no substitute for time in the OR, and everywhere I went that had fellows supervising residents, the fellows spent an awful lot of time not in an OR.

But they had plenty of time to look at pictures of echoes, and float through rooms to put their hands on probes.

I've supervised a resident about a dozen times this entire year, yet I've had superb TEE training and am approaching a certain comfort level with the sickest patients and most complex procedures (all the while being mindful of Dunning-Kruger pitfalls ... few people can be as dangerous as a doctor who's almost done with a period of training).

There have been times when I've felt overly micromanaged, and occasionally some days were filled with more work than learning, but if I had it to do over again, I still wouldn't choose an ACTA program that had more than occasional supervision.
 
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A non accredited fellowship is also a different scenario than someone right out of residency who is going to pick up the echo skills on the job. I've seen people that never did any type of fellowship, but over the years taught themselves echo. I would argue though, that just like someone else pointed out, how many patients suffered / inaccurate assessments were made because of the learning curve during the years spent to get up to speed.

I enjoyed this thread a while back and am again enjoying the discussion. Admittedly, I was somewhat defensive of the career path I chose to take back when the thread was first going.

In response to you anes, I would say I think/hope no patients suffered and no inaccurate assessments were made. My fellowship allowed me to staff cases with a resident and I had back up as well, much like an accredited fellowship. I had a lot of experience as a resident performing TEE and making calls in the OR during a variety of procedures including mitralclip, TAVR, as well as the usual cardiac stuff. I passed the advanced TEE exam during residency.

I apologize again for the mopping comment. Nice to see it getting requoted though.

I perform 3D in all my exams. Sometimes out of necessity, sometimes just to practice. I hope we use 3D color more in the future as the technology gets better. Anyone see how nice it looks on a Philips Epiq and the new X8-2T probe?
 
I have no doubt that what you're saying is true of CCM fellowships. Critical care is by its nature the care of many patients in parallel, and there's surely far more value for a fellow in the thinking and decision making ,rather than direct care of the patients in the rooms. The residents, interns, students, NPs, etc should be doing the information gathering, consult chasing, scut work, and most of the procedures.

I feel that cardiac is different and I deliberately chose a program where I would not be supervising. (I'd also spent the previous years supervising residents as an attending, and wanted some alone time, so to speak.) A cardiac fellowship where the fellow actively supervises two residents at a time, increasing the number of cases the fellow is exposed to over the year, might have some advantages. But that doesn't actually appear to be the reality of the "supervisory" cardiac fellowships. The ones I talked to and visited had the fellows supervising one case at a time ... and you know what the fellows did when they weren't in the room? Had pretty relaxed days.

The advertised "value" of the supervisory programs was more time out of the OR during "boring" periods. But you know what? Much of anesthesia training is preparing for rare events, and avoiding them, and recognizing them quickly when they do occur, and handling them on your feet. And you've got to be present to experience these events during training. I think we go a little overboard dismissing the stool-sitters, and I think every new grad would benefit from some time when they're doing their own cases solo and just have time in the OR.

I'm a little weird in that I refuse almost every break I get offered. But I can't tell you how many times this year I've declined a break only to have a decision point, small or large, come up minutes later. Even during "boring" periods when nothing is supposed to happen. There's just no substitute for time in the OR, and everywhere I went that had fellows supervising residents, the fellows spent an awful lot of time not in an OR.

But they had plenty of time to look at pictures of echoes, and float through rooms to put their hands on probes.

I've supervised a resident about a dozen times this entire year, yet I've had superb TEE training and am approaching a certain comfort level with the sickest patients and most complex procedures (all the while being mindful of Dunning-Kruger pitfalls ... few people can be as dangerous as a doctor who's almost done with a period of training).

There have been times when I've felt overly micromanaged, and occasionally some days were filled with more work than learning, but if I had it to do over again, I still wouldn't choose an ACTA program that had more than occasional supervision.

I fully agree with this and this is how I chose my fellowship program as well. I totally understand the utility of a supervisory fellowship, but as pgg says it takes a very motivated, adult learner to stay actively involved throughout the case and not just roll in for TEE insertion and coming off CPB. We have a supervisory fellowship at my shop and while some fellows are around and actively participate, some would disappear. That's not what I wanted for myself.

Also, my group does solo cases for hearts so I wanted to gain comfort doing everything myself including the TEE exam and incorporating it into management. I don't feel like I'm doing another residency or being scut like a (very grumpy) FFP describes at all - I'll be honing my overall skill set and adding new facets as well. I don't want "hours" to read - to me that time isn't priceless in fact I feel the opposite, I want to be engaged in a case. That's a large difference that CCM has.

I also love the description of fellowship programs as cardiac anesthesia or echo-based. Some of my colleagues are more drawn to the echo-centric programs, which may be great for them and their career goals especially if you'll be at a supervisory academic center. It's largely a personal decision about which path to take.
 
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I perform 3D in all my exams. Sometimes out of necessity, sometimes just to practice. I hope we use 3D color more in the future as the technology gets better. Anyone see how nice it looks on a Philips Epiq and the new X8-2T probe?

Me too.

I just gave a lecture to a room full of cardiologists and cardiac anesthesiologists about the value of 3D TEE.

Love 3D color. We can find with a high degree of accuracy where the leak(s) may by in 2d. But 3D with color cropping leaves no ambiguity in the right study. Show your surgeon the en face 3d Color regurgitant jet and the communication between anesthesiologitst and CT surgeon is done via a clip. Mark my words... at some point there will be a grading system for MR that is based on 3D color Vena Contracta Area.

Live 3D is a useful tool as well. Especially for structural heart procedueres. Mitral clips are largely TEE based and 3D TEE is a large part of this procedure.

The automation that is coming out with some of the machines is actually quite impressive.
 
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Me too.

I just gave a lecture to a room full of cardiologists and cardiac anesthesiologists about the value of 3D TEE.

Love 3D color. We can find with a high degree of accuracy where the leak(s) may by in 2d. But 3D with color cropping leaves no ambiguity in the right study. Show your surgeon the en face 3d Color regurgitant jet and the communication between anesthesiologitst and CT surgeon is done via a clip. Mark my words... at some point there will be a grading system for MR that is based on 3D color Vena Contracta Area.

Live 3D is a useful tool as well. Especially for structural heart procedueres. Mitral clips are largely TEE based and 3D TEE is a large part of this procedure.

The automation that is coming out with some of the machines is actually quite impressive.

sevo, in your practice what quantitative and qualitative data do you prioritize to quickly decide between mild vs moderate paravalvular leak after MVR? Usually there's not a lot of time to go through the full mitral exam with calculations like you would pre-op...
 
PVL is a whole lecture in and of itself, but a quick a dirty way to look at it is:

*Do not accept anything over mild PVL*
  1. If you are replacing, then know what the normal washing jets look like for the particular valve you are placing.
  2. During the MV repair/replacement was there any surgical issues that may have complicated the procedure?
  3. Evaluate leaks under awake conditions (don’t measure leaks with your typical low BPs you see after bypass). Drive up the pressures to normal conditions to get a good exam of your PVL. Everything looks better with a BP of 80 systolic and under GA.
  4. 2D: Are all the leaflets opening and closing, is the valve well seated or is there any rocking motion? 2D CFD: Eval the full specturm of 0-180 degrees. Is it low velocity or high velocity? Symmetrical jet or asymmetrical? How far does the jet extend into the LA- is it a deeply penetrating jet? Eccentric jet? with coanda? What’s the VC, is there a pisa shell present on the other side of the valve, if so how big? Inside or outside of the sewing ring? How dense is the jet when looking at CWD? Save a clip… play back and forth frame by frame. You can look at pulmonary venous flow for extra credit, but I rarely do.
  5. 3D: Either with live 3d or 3D zoom (higher frame rate), you can REALLY examine the suture ring and the PVL. Start with a good en face view. Look for dehiscence, rocking, etc. Then rotate your 3D image so you are looking into the anterior commissure and then the posterior commissure then 6 and 12 o’clock. You can slowly rotate 360 degrees to examine every segment of the sewing ring from every angle with extreme detail adding magnification if you need to (do the same for a BPV). When you locate a problem look at it from both the atrial and ventricular views. Next do 3D color exam and crop down to where your leak is emerging so you can get great definition of the pathology. At this point you can rotate the PVL in all dimensions to get a good feel for it and measure cross sectional lengths, areas as well as getting a good view of the surrounding stuctures that may be involved.

This all sounds like it takes time. It doesn’t. If it’s Moderate-Severe or Severe, the decision making takes no time at all.

Mild to Moderate deserve close attention to detail, but in general… anything over mild isn’t an acceptable repair or replacement (exception is Mitral clips where =/<2+ is considered adequate when you are dealing with severe MR in a 90 y/o as they will get resolution of alot of their symptoms).

Also, keep in mind a lot of the mild PVL go away after protamine.

paravalvular-leak-3D.gif
 
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I know there is still a lot of skepticism surrounding 3D.
I still believe in it's power and ability to add significant relevant information to our exams (2d, pwd, cwd, cfd).
At the very least... they are some of the prettiest pictures in medicine.

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