Advice for a Younger Student?

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6zebo6

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Hi all,

I have an unusual situation and could use a little help from the “hive-mind” that is this forum. I appreciate the collective wisdom present here, and would really appreciate a helping hand.

I will graduate from a local public university at the age of 18 (I am 15 now) with a biology pre-med degree and both a chemistry and music minor. To be clear, I am not looking for judgement and/or disapproval of my grade accelerations, there is no way that I can give you my life story via a medium such as this, so just rest assured that my education has been guided by many professionals and is done with the agreement of all parties involved. This is not a result of parents “pushing” me, I am very independent with regards to my education and, in fact, my parents have tended to be the voice of reason :). Thank you in advance for understanding.

A little background info: I will be entering my sophomore year of college this fall. I am looking to enter a MD/PHD program after graduation, and know that it may be difficult to get schools to accept me due to my age. I will have all the other needed attributes for my application (strong ECs, shadowing, clinical experience, research, etc.) My GPA (as of now) is a 4.0, and as I’ve taken many of the more difficult science courses already (organic chem, cell bio, etc.), I don’t expect it to change much. Assuming a high MCAT score (if I don’t get a high score I have many years to retake :)), I will be looking to attend a top-tier university.

My questions are as follows:

1) Do you know of anyone who went through a similar situation to mine who would be willing to give me some advice?

2) If you were on an applications committee looking at my application, what would you want to see to show maturity and social competence, to help counteract concerns that would be brought up with my age?

3) What issues, if any, would you foresee coming up with a significantly younger person in a medical class (besides maturity of the subject matter)? Now, one of the reasons I have chosen an MD/PHD path (besides my love for research) is that it will “catch me back up” in age so that my M3 and M4 I am the same age as most of my non-PHD counterparts. Because of this, I don’t foresee clinical appropriateness being as much of an issue either.

4) Does anyone know of ways to get clinical experience under the age of 18? I have a few ways but I am looking for more ideas.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions you may be able to offer. I appreciate any insights that you can provide :).

6zebo6

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First off, kudos for really crushing life thus far. You're obviously very smart, and comparing you to where I was when I was 15 (or even 22 for that matter) is almost embarrassing from my perspective.

That said, I wasted a lot of years of my life gunning for something I thought I really wanted and I was almost double your age before I realized it. I rushed to finish college in 3 years, went straight into a top 10 law school, and busted my ass working 80-100 hours a week in finance for almost a decade. I hated every single second of it, but kept telling myself that it was just a means to an end. Well, I got to the end, with the 7 figure income that goes with it, and still hated it. I became incredibly depressed and suicidal thoughts were just a way of life for me.

Eventually I met a girl (now my wife), that really changed my perspective and encouraged me to pursue a different path. This was the best decision I ever made; even though I now have zero income, and work just as many hours, I love every minute of it because it's something I'm truly passionate about.

The moral of the story is just take a minute and slow down, because if I did it would have saved me almost 15 years of misery. You're way ahead of curve, and if I were you I would finish college at 18 and take a year or even two years to just enjoy yourself and experience the world outside of academia. Find out what you're really passionate about -- it might be medicine, it might not. Even if you enter med school at 20, you'll still most likely be the youngest in your class. I know this wasn't the advice you were looking for, but I felt compelled to offer my perspective because you sound eerily similar to me when I was younger.
 
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You seem very mature from the way you write, so that's a plus. But in terms of showing your maturity to a third party, one of the only ways I can think of is to have your LOR writers emphasize that. Also maybe try volunteering in something like hospice/palliative care? That's a pretty emotionally taxing field from what I hear, and I feel if you can get a good LOR from your supervisor that'd be good. Not sure if they accept people your age though, but just something to keep in mind. For other clinical experiences, I know some have age limits, so you'll have to do a bit of your own research to see what's in your area, but plain old shadowing should always be an option.

I can't comment on the other questions, since I don't have much experience there.

Just out of my own curiosity, were you homeschooled? Or did you just skip grades?
 
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First off, kudos for really crushing life thus far. You're obviously very smart, and comparing you to where I was when I was 15 (or even 22 for that matter) is almost embarrassing from my perspective.

That said, I wasted a lot of years of my life gunning for something I thought I really wanted and I was almost double your age before I realized it. I rushed to finish college in 3 years, went straight into a top 10 law school, and busted my ass working 80-100 hours a week in finance for almost a decade. I hated every single second of it, but kept telling myself that it was just a means to an end. Well, I got to the end, with the 7 figure income that goes with it, and still hated it. I became incredibly depressed and suicidal thoughts were just a way of life for me.

Eventually I met a girl (now my wife), that really changed my perspective and encouraged me to pursue a different path. This was the best decision I ever made; even though I now have zero income, and work just as many hours, I love every minute of it because it's something I'm truly passionate about.

The moral of the story is just take a minute and slow down, because if I did it would have saved me almost 15 years of misery. You're way ahead of curve, and if I were you I would finish college at 18 and take a year or even two years to just enjoy yourself and experience the world outside of academia. Find out what you're really passionate about -- it might be medicine, it might not. Even if you enter med school at 20, you'll still most likely be the youngest in your class. I know this wasn't the advice you were looking for, but I felt compelled to offer my perspective because you sound eerily similar to me when I was younger.

Thanks. I definitely like to keep my mind open to new ideas, but I honestly fell in love with biology the 1st second of my first class. I don't want to be defined as the youngest, so gap years and such are not much of a concern (in fact, I've already been slowed done twice :)). However, I do think that an MD/PHD program will help get my age back in line with peers, while allowing me to pursue the PHD option (which is a must for me). Research has truly been my calling, and I believe that starting an MD/PHD program earlier keeps me from starting residencies, internships, etc. at the drastically later time that most MD/PHD students begin such programs (compared to a typical 4 year MD student).

You seem very mature from the way you write, so that's a plus. But in terms of showing your maturity to a third party, one of the only ways I can think of is to have your LOR writers emphasize that. Also maybe try volunteering in something like hospice/palliative care? That's a pretty emotionally taxing field from what I hear, and I feel if you can get a good LOR from your supervisor that'd be good. Not sure if they accept people your age though, but just something to keep in mind. For other clinical experiences, I know some have age limits, so you'll have to do a bit of your own research to see what's in your area, but plain old shadowing should always be an option.

I can't comment on the other questions, since I don't have much experience there.

Just out of my own curiosity, were you homeschooled? Or did you just skip grades?

It's actually quite complicated. I've been shipped back and forth between homeschool and public school, whatever served the school district. Many courses were taken online. Grade skipping was a major part though, and had to be for multiple reasons I won't go into, for fear of writing a novel :).
 
Wow! Kudos, OP, on doing such a great job so far. As someone who also graduated from college at 18, I can only offer my retrospective perspective. Throughout college, I really thought that I would be ready for medical school, but when I applied...let's just say it didn't go well. It's challenging to get the life experience that most people acquire in 22 years with only 18 years under your belt. If you would like to PM me, I'd be happy to discuss it with you, but for anonymity's sake, I'd rather not post publicly.

Also, just FYI, you can volunteer at many hospitals even if your are under 18. You can also shadow physicians, work in a research position, and do general community volunteering. These are all extremely useful for expanding your understanding of a physician's role in treating patients. Also, volunteering/research will allow you to solidify your interest in medicine as a career.

Funny story for all SDNers: The worst part of going on medical school interviews at 18 years old is that, if you make a reservation and don't double check to make sure that people under 21 can actually stay alone in that particular hotel, you can land in the most unfortunate situation of getting to a large metropolitan area late the night before your first medical school interview and having the concierge politely tell you that your reservation is invalid because "we serve alcohol here."
 
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There are some that have done what you're suggesting, though the only one I know personally lives far, far away and does not have great introspection and self-awareness - alas, he's not doing terribly well. You sound much more self-aware to even be considering these ideas.

If you hadn't suggested MD/PhD, that would have been first on my list for exactly the reasons you describe, so I think that's a great plan.

Also do please consider @Azete 's good advice about exploring other options while you plow ahead. As a no longer young person, it's shocking how much my current passions diverge from my youthful ambitions. I'm comfortable that I am where I'm supposed to be in life, but also have the perspective to see how the circuitous route was a much more beneficial and enriching path.

For that reason, and since you do have the time, I'd suggest you consciously build some "walkabout" time into your plan. Travel overseas. Join the Peace Corps or teach English. Follow your music. Volunteer on an archaeological dig. Learn Spanish or Arabic or Chinese. The life lessons learned will unfold for years to come --

Then dive into your MD/PhD plan with fresh eyes and a clear head --
 
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Have you thought about getting your PhD first? You could have a less rushed PhD experience that many would consider more luxurious, and you wouldn't feel pressured to wrap it up and get back to your clinical training. You would also potentially have more options from a PhD program perspective than what would be available through MD/PhD programs. You could finish with a top flight PhD in anything you want, and still be right on time for medical school in your age cohort without any of the concerns you have mentioned. The only downside there is that your PhD research field would march on without you for a longer time before you'd have a chance to return to it, but a couple of years doesn't really matter too much when you're looking at being out of the lab for residency anyway.

Why do you want to be a doctor? You mention how much you love research and treasure the PhD. Most MDs don't do high level research, and you don't need an MD to be a good scientist (nor do you need a PhD, but one or the other does open doors). The biggest concern I'd have on an admissions committee is that you're shooting for the top of the ladder, without a clear idea for why. Whatever you do after "college", make sure it helps you figure out what you want to do with your life, and that it demonstrates to others that you know what you're doing. Getting a PhD first would advance your research-first goals, and also give you perspective about the value of a medical education on top of a scientific one, should you choose to continue after that.

Edit: also, some very prominent PhD researchers don't want graduate students on a MD/PhD track, because they're less likely to contribute to their pedigree down the road. A straight PhD would have more options at some select places, including international sites like Oxford or Cambridge (although by the time you'd be done out there you'd actually be older than your MS1 classmates).
 
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Wow! Kudos, OP, on doing such a great job so far. As someone who also graduated from college at 18, I can only offer my retrospective perspective. Throughout college, I really thought that I would be ready for medical school, but when I applied...let's just say it didn't go well. It's challenging to get the life experience that most people acquire in 22 years with only 18 years under your belt. If you would like to PM me, I'd be happy to discuss it with you, but for anonymity's sake, I'd rather not post publicly.

Also, just FYI, you can volunteer at many hospitals even if your are under 18. You can also shadow physicians, work in a research position, and do general community volunteering. These are all extremely useful for expanding your understanding of a physician's role in treating patients. Also, volunteering/research will allow you to solidify your interest in medicine as a career.

Funny story for all SDNers: The worst part of going on medical school interviews at 18 years old is that, if you make a reservation and don't double check to make sure that people under 21 can actually stay alone in that particular hotel, you can land in the most unfortunate situation of getting to a large metropolitan area late the night before your first medical school interview and having the concierge politely tell you that your reservation is invalid because "we serve alcohol here."

It's so great to hear from someone who was in the same boat :). I'll definitely PM you. I am a volunteer at my local hospital and am working on getting a math differentiation program in place at my local elementary school. I will spare my other ECs for sake of anonymity :). And LOL I'll keep the hotel thing in mind xD.

There are some that have done what you're suggesting, though the only one I know personally lives far, far away and does not have great introspection and self-awareness - alas, he's not doing terribly well. You sound much more self-aware to even be considering these ideas.

If you hadn't suggested MD/PhD, that would have been first on my list for exactly the reasons you describe, so I think that's a great plan.

Also do please consider @Azete 's good advice about exploring other options while you plow ahead. As a no longer young person, it's shocking how much my current passions diverge from my youthful ambitions. I'm comfortable that I am where I'm supposed to be in life, but also have the perspective to see how the circuitous route was a much more beneficial and enriching path.

For that reason, and since you do have the time, I'd suggest you consciously build some "walkabout" time into your plan. Travel overseas. Join the Peace Corps or teach English. Follow your music. Volunteer on an archaeological dig. Learn Spanish or Arabic or Chinese. The life lessons learned will unfold for years to come --

Then dive into your MD/PhD plan with fresh eyes and a clear head --

When I first heard about an MD/PhD, I couldn't believe how close it was to perfectly suiting my needs :). My education has been slowed down several times (about 2 years total), so please know that "walkabout" time is something I've always strived for. However, I don't believe that entirely stopping my formal education is something I would consider. I do try to expand my horizons, I'm currently learning Spanish and creating a math differentiation program at my local elementary school for both high and low performing kids. The way I think of it, I can take my education at a slow, but steady pace, and if I want to turn back or change my mind it's not like I'm running out of time to do so :).
 
Have you thought about getting your PhD first? You could have a less rushed PhD experience that many would consider more luxurious, and you wouldn't feel pressured to wrap it up and get back to your clinical training. You would also potentially have more options from a PhD program perspective than what would be available through MD/PhD programs. You could finish with a top flight PhD in anything you want, and still be right on time for medical school in your age cohort without any of the concerns you have mentioned. The only downside there is that your PhD research field would march on without you for a longer time before you'd have a chance to return to it, but a couple of years doesn't really matter too much when you're looking at being out of the lab for residency anyway.

Why do you want to be a doctor? You mention how much you love research and treasure the PhD. Most MDs don't do high level research, and you don't need an MD to be a good scientist (nor do you need a PhD, but one or the other does open doors). The biggest concern I'd have on an admissions committee is that you're shooting for the top of the ladder, without a clear idea for why. Whatever you do after "college", make sure it helps you figure out what you want to do with your life, and that it demonstrates to others that you know what you're doing. Getting a PhD first would advance your research-first goals, and also give you perspective about the value of a medical education on top of a scientific one, should you choose to continue after that.

Edit: also, some very prominent PhD researchers don't want graduate students on a MD/PhD track, because they're less likely to contribute to their pedigree down the road. A straight PhD would have more options at some select places, including international sites like Oxford or Cambridge (although by the time you'd be done out there you'd actually be older than your MS1 classmates).

The main reason I would like to attend the MD/PHD combined program is, of course, the financial outlook. Not being burdened by piles of debt is a very compelling reason :). I've always wanted to help people, and whatever research I do has to have an obvious connection to making someone's life better. That's the main reason I want the combined MD/PHD, the application of the science to helping others. I would definitely want to practice, and the MD also leaves more doors open, something I can definitely afford to do at my age :).

Thanks for the perspective on admissions. I'm going to try and get as much clinical experience as possible, so I can show adcoms how much I've really thought this through and know what I'm getting into. Thanks again, it really does help a lot.
 
On those occasions in which we have accepted very young (<18) applicants, we learned that a PhD first was less harmful to their development than completing the MD before 21. Medical school can be an alienating experience in the best of circumstances. Being much younger than peers was more than any of them could bear without significant and apparent damage. It doesn't begin to describe the clinical challenges (performing pap smears and DRE's on people twice one's age...). Recalling what we did to these students still breaks my heart. I don't feel good about any of what happened. I strongly suggest deceleration in an engaging pursuit. Medical school will still be here.
 
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On those occasions in which we have accepted very young (<18) applicants, we learned that a PhD first was less harmful to their development than completing the MD before 21. Medical school can be an alienating experience in the best of circumstances. Being much younger than peers was more than any of them could bear without significant and apparent damage. It doesn't begin to describe the clinical challenges (performing pap smears and DRE's on people twice one's age...). Recalling what we did to these students still breaks my heart. I strongly suggest deceleration in an engaging pursuit. Medical school will still be here.

Thank you for your reply. The way I understand it, M1 and M2 are more classwork-based, and then I would be caught back up in age by the clinical M3 and M4. Is this correct? Are the clinical challenges you describe present in M1 and M2, and if so, would you mind elaborating on that a bit? All your insights are so greatly appreciated, I want to know as much as possible so that I can create the best possible educational path for myself. Thanks again!
 
Thank you for your reply. The way I understand it, M1 and M2 are more classwork-based, and then I would be caught back up in age by the clinical M3 and M4. Is this correct? Are the clinical challenges you describe present in M1 and M2, and if so, would you mind elaborating on that a bit? All your insights are so greatly appreciated, I want to know as much as possible so that I can create the best possible educational path for myself. Thanks again!
Clinical training is now even more integrated into all 4 years than it was in the cases I'm describing.
Discussing sexual function and dysfunction are just the tip of the iceberg. Breast, genital and rectal exams do not wait until third year.
 
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Clinical training is now even more integrated into all 4 years than it was in the cases I'm describing.
Breast, genital and rectal exams do not wait until third year.

Thank you for your insights, I had heard about this new initiative, but did not know to what extent. This information is very helpful, thank you.
 
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On those occasions in which we have accepted very young (<18) applicants, we learned that a PhD first was less harmful to their development than completing the MD before 21. Medical school can be an alienating experience in the best of circumstances. Being much younger than peers was more than any of them could bear without significant and apparent damage. It doesn't begin to describe the clinical challenges (performing pap smears and DRE's on people twice one's age...). Recalling what we did to these students still breaks my heart. I don't feel good about any of what happened. I strongly suggest deceleration in an engaging pursuit. Medical school will still be here.

But all da money will be gone! RVUs will now be worth -50 dollars each!

My only regret is that I did not go into investment banking and stick a finger up the world's arse circa 2008 before embarking on sticking fingers into literal rectums. All that money woulda done me good, and I would have let out a lot more rage and resentment for having to deal with a-holes all day long for a paltry sum.
 
But all da money will be gone! RVUs will now be worth -50 dollars each!

My only regret is that I did not go into investment banking and stick a finger up the world's arse circa 2008 before embarking on sticking fingers into literal rectums. All that money woulda done me good, and I would have let out a lot more rage and resentment for having to deal with a-holes all day long for a paltry sum.
You are not helping OP.
 
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The main reason I would like to attend the MD/PHD combined program is, of course, the financial outlook. Not being burdened by piles of debt is a very compelling reason :). I've always wanted to help people, and whatever research I do has to have an obvious connection to making someone's life better. That's the main reason I want the combined MD/PHD, the application of the science to helping others. I would definitely want to practice, and the MD also leaves more doors open, something I can definitely afford to do at my age :).

Thanks for the perspective on admissions. I'm going to try and get as much clinical experience as possible, so I can show adcoms how much I've really thought this through and know what I'm getting into. Thanks again, it really does help a lot.

First off congrats on your scholastic achievements thus far. I would definitely suggest in your case completing the PhD first since it will really change your perspective on life and certainly help focus what you'd want out of a medical career. Also, if you are this advanced at 15, I can't imagine you won't be able to win some substantial scholarship for med school due to your academic performance. If you still want to do the combined degree, I would suggest you take a research tech position for like 2 yrs + travel for a yr before starting the MD/PhD. This would allow you to get some valuable life experience, more research skills, plus you'd still be ~ 3 yrs younger than the avg MD/PhD student.
 
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You are not helping OP.

I was not the one who posted that (I believe that's what the acronym 'OP' means :)).

First off congrats on your scholastic achievements thus far. I would definitely suggest in your case completing the PhD first since it will really change your perspective on life and certainly help focus what you'd want out of a medical career. Also, if you are this advanced at 15, I can't imagine you won't be able to win some substantial scholarship for med school due to your academic performance. If you still want to do the combined degree, I would suggest you take a research tech position for like 2 yrs + travel for a yr before starting the MD/PhD. This would allow you to get some valuable life experience, more research skills, plus you'd still be ~ 3 yrs younger than the avg MD/PhD student.

Thank you for your suggestions! Everything is taken under advisement :).
 
I was not the one who posted that (I believe that's what the acronym 'OP' means :)).
:).
I know. I was responding to the self absorbed resident. He wasn't being helpful to you (OP).
 
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Have you thought about getting your PhD first? You could have a less rushed PhD experience that many would consider more luxurious, and you wouldn't feel pressured to wrap it up and get back to your clinical training. You would also potentially have more options from a PhD program perspective than what would be available through MD/PhD programs. You could finish with a top flight PhD in anything you want, and still be right on time for medical school in your age cohort without any of the concerns you have mentioned. The only downside there is that your PhD research field would march on without you for a longer time before you'd have a chance to return to it, but a couple of years doesn't really matter too much when you're looking at being out of the lab for residency anyway.

Why do you want to be a doctor? You mention how much you love research and treasure the PhD. Most MDs don't do high level research, and you don't need an MD to be a good scientist (nor do you need a PhD, but one or the other does open doors). The biggest concern I'd have on an admissions committee is that you're shooting for the top of the ladder, without a clear idea for why. Whatever you do after "college", make sure it helps you figure out what you want to do with your life, and that it demonstrates to others that you know what you're doing. Getting a PhD first would advance your research-first goals, and also give you perspective about the value of a medical education on top of a scientific one, should you choose to continue after that.

Edit: also, some very prominent PhD researchers don't want graduate students on a MD/PhD track, because they're less likely to contribute to their pedigree down the road. A straight PhD would have more options at some select places, including international sites like Oxford or Cambridge (although by the time you'd be done out there you'd actually be older than your MS1 classmates).

OP, keep in mind if you take this route that you will likely end up having to pay for your MD, which can result in several hundred thousand dollars of debt if you fail to get a scholarship. If you get accepted into an MD/PhD program you will not have to pay for the MD and so I would advise you to continue your pursuits for an MD/PhD position. Although he is an outlier, there has been a person who started an MD/PhD program at age 12. Sho Yano (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sho_Yano) joined the UChicago MD/PhD program at age 12 and graduated with a PhD in Cell Bio at age 18 and the MD at age 21. Don't let people on here discourage you or tell you that you are too immature. Follow your passion and you will succeed. As for maturity, I second an earlier poster's suggestion about hospice volunteering. You must be able to demonstrate to adcoms that you are mature enough to deal with emotionally complex situations and I believe dealing with end-of-life or palliative care may do a good job of demonstrating that.
 
OP, keep in mind if you do this you will likely end up having to pay for your MD, which can result in several hundred thousand dollars of debt. If you get accepted into an MD/PhD program you will not have to pay for the MD and so I would advise you to continue your pursuits for an MD/PhD position. Although he is an outlier, there has been a person who started an MD/PhD program at age. Sho Yano (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sho_Yano) joined the UChicago MD/PhD program at age 12 and graduated with a PhD in Cell Bio at age 18 and the MD at age 21. Don't let people on here discourage you or tell you that you are too immature. Follow your passion and you will succeed. As for maturity, I second an earlier poster's suggestion about hospice volunteering. You must be able to demonstrate to adcoms that you are mature enough to deal with emotionally complex situations and I believe dealing with end-of-life or palliative care may do a good job of demonstrating that.

Thank you so much! I understand that others may have doubts or reservations, which are appreciated just as much as any other posting, but it does feel nice to have someone telling me to "go for it" :). Don't get me wrong, I appreciate everyone's responses and insights, and I am considering everything proposed. I certainly have a long time to make my decision :). Hospice volunteering is an excellent idea, and is something I would have most likely not thought of without the help of this forum, thanks again!
 
I know. I was responding to the self absorbed resident. He wasn't being helpful to you (OP).

Actually it was an admonition not to rush into medicine, which is an inevitably frustrating and unrewarding (from my standpoint) field. There are better ways to spend your youth, than in the bowels of some hospital or patient.
 
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Actually it was an admonition not to rush into medicine, which is an inevitably frustrating and unrewarding (from my standpoint) field. There are better ways to spend your youth, than in the bowels of some hospital or patient.

What would you have changed? Thanks!
 
What would you have changed? Thanks!

Like I said, I would have done:

1) Some banking, for profit business, entrepreneurship to experience cold calculating avarice, make/save some money, and practice being a leader.
2) Traveled and explored and lived in the world more, so that I could actually see how people live and the contexts from which they come.
3) Had more relationships and fooled around a bit more to really understand how people work a little better and to be a bit more vulnerable and know loss a bit more deeply.

Just realize that in medical school many if not all of these things are stripped from you: (The rant comes below. You've been warned).

1. You will be perpetually poor for years and nothing you do will be for your own economic profit: everything you do will be pretend or for the sake of someone else doing less work. AKA hospital profiting on your service for a paltry sum (fast food workers will make more than you). Your attendings profiting from your service -- can you imagine them rounding at 5am and taking care of pages from nurses? In almost every other white-collar service profession, on-the-job learning is a defacto cost to the employer. Here it is taken out on you -- 80 hrs/week for 50k? because you're "learning?" That's 25k a year for the normal wage earner, why do that when the banking industry supplies you on the job training and a hefty BONUS. You'll work just as hard, start with as much ignorance, and your employers will profit just as much. Don't think not for profit hospitals aren't a big business? Guess again. The bottom line is still their biggest concern.

Some attendings will try to tell you that they are suffering an economic loss because they must take the time to teach you. Wrong - they get compensated for that. I've also yet to see any attending complain that they are suffering a loss from billing for the 50-100 central lines that residents put in each month, bedside echos that are done each month, morning rounds done without attendings every day. Ask any current attending now about the good old days when you could supervise a resident OR case from home. "Call me if you get into trouble, okay?" The same thing still pervades our public hospitals - "resident run service" means that you do whatever the f you want and someone else bills for it. Don't believe the BS they shove down your throat to make you believe you are a burden to them... they would bleed money hiring PAs and NPs to cover their patients if you weren't around.

2. you will lose the ability to ever be in charge of anything of significance -- including your own schedule. Good luck choosing when and where you can travel and move. It just gets progressively more restrictive. The best part will be residency where they may tell you MUST take a month off at some randomly chosen time for vacation and then work continuously for the remaining 11 months. Want to be a leader? Whoops - gotta wait till your chief year (final year of training). Even then, you got attendings telling you what to do. The only escape is when you become a private practice attending when the customer is your only boss.

You say you really want to help someone? You can't, cuz the hospital and your attendings aren't into doing the right thing for the uninsured patient. Do they really need an operation but have shiet insurance? Maybe I will send them for "outpt follow up" first at the free clinic cuz that way, I won't have to do pro-bono work. Or maybe I operated on someone, they had a bad outcome and have no insurance? Guess I'll dump him on the resident clinic cuz he can't pay my actual fees. It's all BS -- these application essays that everyone is fretting over? Do you realize how superficial they are? The whole application process is predicated on doing these checklist activities to show you did some background research on a life in medicine -- A week of shadowing or a month in some foreign country and you think you know what's up? Ever get the crap beat out of you by your parent/spouse/warlord? Ever live in abject poverty and develop every parasitic disease known to man? Ever live on the south side of Chicago, where 50+ people get shot in one night? It's a farce. And that's why I advise you to actually go out and see the world - the dark dark dark side of the world, so that when you enter this field you're not shaking your head or calling a patient "non-compliant" or "crazy." They may not actually be awful, but may just have awful history/circumstances, but doctors forget that all the time.

3. Your relationships will take a beating. I guarantee you that. Whether they survive or not is totally up to chance. Our profession has egregious rates of divorce, suicide, drug abuse, depression, etc. You're going to spend 10 years chasing this? Your child is sick? Nope can't stay home with them. Your parent passed away? Okay, you can grieve for ONE day, then you gotta take call for 27 hours, okay? Your grandpa broke his hip? Nah, he's not dead yet, can't take time off to visit him. Need to move? Nope, good luck. Wanna run a race or see a concert or go on a date? Nope, your case/rounds went late. Here's some extra scut too!
 
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Like I said, I would have done:

1) Some banking, for profit business, entrepreneurship to experience cold calculating avarice, make/save some money, and practice being a leader.
2) Traveled and explored and lived in the world more, so that I could actually see how people live and the contexts from which they come.
3) Had more relationships and fooled around a bit more to really understand how people work a little better and to be a bit more vulnerable and know loss a bit more deeply.

Just realize that in medical school many if not all of these things are stripped from you: (The rant comes below. You've been warned).

1. You will be perpetually poor for years and nothing you do will be for your own economic profit: everything you do will be pretend or for the sake of someone else doing less work. AKA hospital profiting on your service for a paltry sum (fast food workers will make more than you). Your attendings profiting from your service -- can you imagine them rounding at 5am and taking care of pages from nurses? In almost every other white-collar service profession, on-the-job learning is a defacto cost to the employer. Here it is taken out on you -- 80 hrs/week for 50k? because you're "learning?" That's 25k a year for the normal wage earner, why do that when the banking industry supplies you on the job training and a hefty BONUS. You'll work just as hard, start with as much ignorance, and your employers will profit just as much. Don't think not for profit hospitals aren't a big business? Guess again. The bottom line is still their biggest concern.

Some attendings will try to tell you that they are suffering an economic loss because they must take the time to teach you. Wrong - they get compensated for that. I've also yet to see any attending complain that they are suffering a loss from billing for the 50-100 central lines that residents put in each month, bedside echos that are done each month, morning rounds done without attendings every day. Ask any current attending now about the good old days when you could supervise a resident OR case from home. "Call me if you get into trouble, okay?" The same thing still pervades our public hospitals - "resident run service" means that you do whatever the f you want and someone else bills for it. Don't believe the BS they shove down your throat to make you believe you are a burden to them... they would bleed money hiring PAs and NPs to cover their patients if you weren't around.

2. you will lose the ability to ever be in charge of anything of significance -- including your own schedule. Good luck choosing when and where you can travel and move. It just gets progressively more restrictive. The best part will be residency where they may tell you MUST take a month off at some randomly chosen time for vacation and then work continuously for the remaining 11 months. Want to be a leader? Whoops - gotta wait till your chief year (final year of training). Even then, you got attendings telling you what to do. The only escape is when you become a private practice attending when the customer is your only boss.

You say you really want to help someone? You can't, cuz the hospital and your attendings aren't into doing the right thing for the uninsured patient. Do they really need an operation but have shiet insurance? Maybe I will send them for "outpt follow up" first at the free clinic cuz that way, I won't have to do pro-bono work. Or maybe I operated on someone, they had a bad outcome and have no insurance? Guess I'll dump him on the resident clinic cuz he can't pay my actual fees. It's all BS -- these application essays that everyone is fretting over? Do you realize how superficial they are? The whole application process is predicated on doing these checklist activities to show you did some background research on a life in medicine -- A week of shadowing or a month in some foreign country and you think you know what's up? Ever get the crap beat out of you by your parent/spouse/warlord? Ever live in abject poverty and develop every parasitic disease known to man? Ever live on the south side of Chicago, where 50+ people get shot in one night? It's a farce. And that's why I advise you to actually go out and see the world - the dark dark dark side of the world, so that when you enter this field you're not shaking your head or calling a patient "non-compliant" or "crazy." They may not actually be awful, but may just have awful history/circumstances, but doctors forget that all the time.

3. Your relationships will take a beating. I guarantee you that. Whether they survive or not is totally up to chance. Our profession has egregious rates of divorce, suicide, drug abuse, depression, etc. You're going to spend 10 years chasing this? Your child is sick? Nope can't stay home with them. Your parent passed away? Okay, you can grieve for ONE day, then you gotta take call for 27 hours, okay? Your grandpa broke his hip? Nah, he's not dead yet, can't take time off to visit him. Need to move? Nope, good luck. Wanna run a race or see a concert or go on a date? Nope, your case/rounds went late. Here's some extra scut too!

So in a nutshell: the hospital administration is selfish and corrupt beyond repair... and your personal life would end up in a mess.
 
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@gyngyn Do you think it's the grittier facets of patient care e.g. perineal care, toileting, and facets of geriatric/debilitation care that younger students have difficulty coping with?
 
@gyngyn Do you think it's the grittier facets of patient care e.g. perineal care, toileting, and facets of geriatric/debilitation care that younger students have difficulty coping with?
I think it is dealing with sick and hurt people while learning things about yourself that occur in this time period. Couple this with an inevitably thin support system from your peers who have already moved past your developmental milestones and you have a set up for alienation.
 
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I think it is dealing with sick and hurt people while learning things about yourself that occur in this time period. Couple this with an inevitably thin support system from your peers who have already moved past your developmental milestones and you have a set up for alienation.
Tbh it's an issue across the board for all age groups. It's the reason why a lot of CNAs in nursing homes have high turnover rate. Put a single assistant with 15-20 residents for toileting needs, showering, and dealing with patients telling you that you're the one putting them in constant pain while getting the equivalent of minimum wage deeply wears down on you. Learning that you won't always be appreciated at work by the patients you are trying to assist is a big reason why I see a lot of doctors feel their profession is thankless and not compensatory. I suppose maturity lends a certain degree of grit where we reaffirm that our passion, interest, or belief that we're doing something bigger than a 9-5 day job gives a buff. But I still agree with @Goro that I think not everyone is cut out to become a physician and it's a calling for those who thrive in that environment.
 
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OP...I graduated high school at 16, and because of AP and some summer classes, graduated college this past year at 19. I applied MD/PhD only this past year (as a rising senior year, albeit a rising senior with only two years of college under my belt at the time). I had a 4.0 gpa, a 518 MCAT, two full years in the same lab and was third author on a paper in a pretty prestigious journal. I applied to 14 schools, had two interviews and no offers. Both schools that interviewed me were top tier schools. When I called to find out why the rejection, both places said that they felt like to make the MD/PhD commitment they thought I should be older (not more mature.... Both places were pretty clear that my interviews were good and both suggested I reapply this year, with the only real difference being that I will have another year of "life experience"). Now, of course, I am only one example, but in hindsight I think my age, combined with the fact that I wasn't a traditional rising senior, didn't help me. I can't remember if you said you will take four full years to get your degree, but I think that will definitely be a plus. PM me if you have additional questions. Good luck!
 
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"Life experience" is a real thing -- And you simply don't get to speed through it because you're extra intelligent. Some things you just need to experience:
broken hearts,
death, both sudden and prolonged,
babies, planned and oops!
being dumped,
finding the courage to dump a really nice person because they're just not 'the one' or you're not in the right place,
being on the receiving end of bad news and having to cope with it,
delivering bad news when necessary, even when you know you're the messenger who will get blamed,
finding your way around bureaucratic obstacles,
working for a jerk,
learning to recognize abuse and stand up for yourself and not take it,
learning to take it when you have to and recognize when that is,
learning to spot phonies, narcissists, douche-bags and gold-diggers,
being the boss with all the fun that entails,
finding your own resilience,
learning how to relate warmly and genuinely to people with half your IQ score,
learning to accept and like who you are - whole package - and not cherry-pick just your strengths.
These things just take time...
 
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"Life experience" is a real thing -- And you simply don't get to speed through it because you're extra intelligent. Some things you just need to experience:
broken hearts,
death, both sudden and prolonged,
babies, planned and oops!
being dumped,
finding the courage to dump a really nice person because they're just not 'the one' or you're not in the right place,
being on the receiving end of bad news and having to cope with it,
delivering bad news when necessary, even when you know you're the messenger who will get blamed,
finding your way around bureaucratic obstacles,
working for a jerk,
learning to recognize abuse and stand up for yourself and not take it,
learning to take it when you have to and recognize when that is,
learning to spot phonies, narcissists, douche-bags and gold-diggers,
being the boss with all the fun that entails,
finding your own resilience,
learning how to relate warmly and genuinely to people with half your IQ score,
learning to accept and like who you are - whole package - and not cherry-pick just your strengths.
These things just take time...
Good examples of the milestones I was referring to!
 
"Life experience" is a real thing -- And you simply don't get to speed through it because you're extra intelligent. Some things you just need to experience:
broken hearts,
death, both sudden and prolonged,
babies, planned and oops!
being dumped,
finding the courage to dump a really nice person because they're just not 'the one' or you're not in the right place,
being on the receiving end of bad news and having to cope with it,
delivering bad news when necessary, even when you know you're the messenger who will get blamed,
finding your way around bureaucratic obstacles,
working for a jerk,
learning to recognize abuse and stand up for yourself and not take it,
learning to take it when you have to and recognize when that is,
learning to spot phonies, narcissists, douche-bags and gold-diggers,
being the boss with all the fun that entails,
finding your own resilience,
learning how to relate warmly and genuinely to people with half your IQ score,
learning to accept and like who you are - whole package - and not cherry-pick just your strengths.
These things just take time...

Essentially what I was saying above. Got live life to see life at it's worst and be able to deal. That's healthcare for you.
 
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So in a nutshell: the hospital administration is selfish and corrupt beyond repair... and your personal life would end up in a mess.

Your reductionist thinking is missing the point. Also good attempt at trying to trivialize things - you're real smurt.
 
Thank you everyone for your input. However, while I appreciate everyone's insights and advice, I believe that this thread has divulged from my original question, and, believe me, the message to slow down has been heard loud and clear :). Rest assured that I will not be attending medical school if others gauge me to not be competent in maturation and/or social abilities; rather, I am trying to leave as many doors open as possible, so, if by junior year I feel confident enough to apply to MD/PHD programs, I have the option to (not having to cram ECs, clinical experience, volunteer hrs, etc.).

Like I said, I would have done:

1) Some banking, for profit business, entrepreneurship to experience cold calculating avarice, make/save some money, and practice being a leader.
2) Traveled and explored and lived in the world more, so that I could actually see how people live and the contexts from which they come.
3) Had more relationships and fooled around a bit more to really understand how people work a little better and to be a bit more vulnerable and know loss a bit more deeply.

Just realize that in medical school many if not all of these things are stripped from you: (The rant comes below. You've been warned).

1. You will be perpetually poor for years and nothing you do will be for your own economic profit: everything you do will be pretend or for the sake of someone else doing less work. AKA hospital profiting on your service for a paltry sum (fast food workers will make more than you). Your attendings profiting from your service -- can you imagine them rounding at 5am and taking care of pages from nurses? In almost every other white-collar service profession, on-the-job learning is a defacto cost to the employer. Here it is taken out on you -- 80 hrs/week for 50k? because you're "learning?" That's 25k a year for the normal wage earner, why do that when the banking industry supplies you on the job training and a hefty BONUS. You'll work just as hard, start with as much ignorance, and your employers will profit just as much. Don't think not for profit hospitals aren't a big business? Guess again. The bottom line is still their biggest concern.

Some attendings will try to tell you that they are suffering an economic loss because they must take the time to teach you. Wrong - they get compensated for that. I've also yet to see any attending complain that they are suffering a loss from billing for the 50-100 central lines that residents put in each month, bedside echos that are done each month, morning rounds done without attendings every day. Ask any current attending now about the good old days when you could supervise a resident OR case from home. "Call me if you get into trouble, okay?" The same thing still pervades our public hospitals - "resident run service" means that you do whatever the f you want and someone else bills for it. Don't believe the BS they shove down your throat to make you believe you are a burden to them... they would bleed money hiring PAs and NPs to cover their patients if you weren't around.

2. you will lose the ability to ever be in charge of anything of significance -- including your own schedule. Good luck choosing when and where you can travel and move. It just gets progressively more restrictive. The best part will be residency where they may tell you MUST take a month off at some randomly chosen time for vacation and then work continuously for the remaining 11 months. Want to be a leader? Whoops - gotta wait till your chief year (final year of training). Even then, you got attendings telling you what to do. The only escape is when you become a private practice attending when the customer is your only boss.

You say you really want to help someone? You can't, cuz the hospital and your attendings aren't into doing the right thing for the uninsured patient. Do they really need an operation but have shiet insurance? Maybe I will send them for "outpt follow up" first at the free clinic cuz that way, I won't have to do pro-bono work. Or maybe I operated on someone, they had a bad outcome and have no insurance? Guess I'll dump him on the resident clinic cuz he can't pay my actual fees. It's all BS -- these application essays that everyone is fretting over? Do you realize how superficial they are? The whole application process is predicated on doing these checklist activities to show you did some background research on a life in medicine -- A week of shadowing or a month in some foreign country and you think you know what's up? Ever get the crap beat out of you by your parent/spouse/warlord? Ever live in abject poverty and develop every parasitic disease known to man? Ever live on the south side of Chicago, where 50+ people get shot in one night? It's a farce. And that's why I advise you to actually go out and see the world - the dark dark dark side of the world, so that when you enter this field you're not shaking your head or calling a patient "non-compliant" or "crazy." They may not actually be awful, but may just have awful history/circumstances, but doctors forget that all the time.

3. Your relationships will take a beating. I guarantee you that. Whether they survive or not is totally up to chance. Our profession has egregious rates of divorce, suicide, drug abuse, depression, etc. You're going to spend 10 years chasing this? Your child is sick? Nope can't stay home with them. Your parent passed away? Okay, you can grieve for ONE day, then you gotta take call for 27 hours, okay? Your grandpa broke his hip? Nah, he's not dead yet, can't take time off to visit him. Need to move? Nope, good luck. Wanna run a race or see a concert or go on a date? Nope, your case/rounds went late. Here's some extra scut too!

Thank you. However, with all due respect, I don't believe these concerns you have have anything to do with an age and/or maturational issue; rather, you seem to be taking your frustrations with the overall structure of current medical education and applying them to a situation that is neither relevant nor applicable to my current education. That being said, I do appreciate you taking the time to express your concerns to me.

I think it is dealing with sick and hurt people while learning things about yourself that occur in this time period. Couple this with an inevitably thin support system from your peers who have already moved past your developmental milestones and you have a set up for alienation.

The only thing I will comment on this (and I thank you for expressing your concerns respectfully and civilly), is that my accelerations have always been done considering my maturity and development, along with academic achievement. I get along much better with my college-level peers than I do kids my own age, and, often times, most students do not guess, although they may suspect, my age (I like to keep it under wraps if possible :)). I have never felt more at home than I have at university. Basically, what I am saying is that developmentally, I, in more ways than not, function better in a group of college freshman than I do with those my own age. If any of this sounds conceited please know that that was not intended, but I am trying to give a fuller picture of my education up to now (without giving away identity).

OP...I graduated high school at 16, and because of AP and some summer classes, graduated college this past year at 19. I applied MD/PhD only this past year (as a rising senior year, albeit a rising senior with only two years of college under my belt at the time). I had a 4.0 gpa, a 518 MCAT, two full years in the same lab and was third author on a paper in a pretty prestigious journal. I applied to 14 schools, had two interviews and no offers. Both schools that interviewed me were top tier schools. When I called to find out why the rejection, both places said that they felt like to make the MD/PhD commitment they thought I should be older (not more mature.... Both places were pretty clear that my interviews were good and both suggested I reapply this year, with the only real difference being that I will have another year of "life experience"). Now, of course, I am only one example, but in hindsight I think my age, combined with the fact that I wasn't a traditional rising senior, didn't help me. I can't remember if you said you will take four full years to get your degree, but I think that will definitely be a plus. PM me if you have additional questions. Good luck!

Thank you for sharing your story. I will be taking four years to degree (AP credits allowed me to pursue both the music and chemistry minor for my last semester). I will PM you.

"Life experience" is a real thing -- And you simply don't get to speed through it because you're extra intelligent. Some things you just need to experience:
broken hearts,
death, both sudden and prolonged,
babies, planned and oops!
being dumped,
finding the courage to dump a really nice person because they're just not 'the one' or you're not in the right place,
being on the receiving end of bad news and having to cope with it,
delivering bad news when necessary, even when you know you're the messenger who will get blamed,
finding your way around bureaucratic obstacles,
working for a jerk,
learning to recognize abuse and stand up for yourself and not take it,
learning to take it when you have to and recognize when that is,
learning to spot phonies, narcissists, douche-bags and gold-diggers,
being the boss with all the fun that entails,
finding your own resilience,
learning how to relate warmly and genuinely to people with half your IQ score,
learning to accept and like who you are - whole package - and not cherry-pick just your strengths.
These things just take time...

Sadly, I have had to go through many of these experiences (partly, I believe, why maturity-wise I tend to do much better than the average grade-accelerated child). Like I said above, please know that I will NOT be attending med school if I do not feel as if I have enough life experience and maturity to handle it. I have a lot of people that can give me a more accurate evaluation of my maturity, as they can see my whole life picture and story, something I cannot divulge for fear of losing anonymity.
 
IMHO getting a PhD just to make tuition free is dumb

you should get a PhD because you plan to have a research career

you should not get an MD just to "open" doors - it doesn't do that, it's a trade degree for providing medical care

it's hard to appreciate how much life experience you need, until you actually have it
 
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