Advice much appreciated/needed

[jdspk863]

Hello,

I applied to PhD/PsyD programs last year. Interviewed at a PhD program (wasn't accepted), and got into a PsyD program. I deferred my acceptance because of the huge price tag that comes along with it. I was told that the reason I didn't get interviews at more PhD programs was because of my GRE score being too low. Now that apps are nearly upon us again, I'm debating what to do next.

I'm fairly sure I just want to practice therapy. Maybe a little research here and there, but I'm currently a full time research assistant at a top-university and have very little interest in continuing a major career in research. Since you guys have been down this road, what would you reccommend? If I know that I pretty much only have an interest in being a clinician, is a Masters of Social Work or Counseling a better route? Or even a PsyD? I would like the opportunity to do assessments and direct a clinic of some sort, or maybe a private practice. I've read thread after thread about MSW vs. Psyd Vs. PhD vs. god knows what else, and it seems like everyone has a different view point. So, any and all advice is much appreciated.

Thanks!

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[KillerDiller]

The price tag on that PsyD program isn't getting any smaller, and (in my opinion) you were right to be hesitant to go into so much debt in this field. If you have NO interest in continuing to do research, then a masters degree is cheaper and less labor intensive way to become a therapist. If you can see yourself enjoying the research component and applying it to fully develop evidence-based clinical skills, then try again for one of the balanced PhD programs.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

Hello,

I applied to PhD/PsyD programs last year. Interviewed at a PhD program (wasn't accepted), and got into a PsyD program. I deferred my acceptance because of the huge price tag that comes along with it. I was told that the reason I didn't get interviews at more PhD programs was because of my GRE score being too low. Now that apps are nearly upon us again, I'm debating what to do next.

I'm fairly sure I just want to practice therapy. Maybe a little research here and there, but I'm currently a full time research assistant at a top-university and have very little interest in continuing a major career in research. Since you guys have been down this road, what would you reccommend? If I know that I pretty much only have an interest in being a clinician, is a Masters of Social Work or Counseling a better route? Or even a PsyD? I would like the opportunity to do assessments and direct a clinic of some sort, or maybe a private practice. I've read thread after thread about MSW vs. Psyd Vs. PhD vs. god knows what else, and it seems like everyone has a different view point. So, any and all advice is much appreciated.

Thanks!

I hate to be "that guy"...but, while KillerDiller does bring up some very valid points and important ones to consider, they are not the only ones to consider, and depending on your current abilities to attain your goal(s), these variables could be considerably different and more important than others. The Psy.D. is a very expensive path to take to become a licensed psychologist, this is probably the most obvious fact you have noticed, however, the Psy.D. accepts on average larger cohorts than a Ph.D. program will (even your top Pys.D. programs will admit roughly 16-20 people vs. the 4-12 that most Ph.D. programs fluctuate between). You probably already realized the Psy.D. emphasizes a more practitioner approach in applying psychological science, however, as KillerDiller mentioned, there are a select FEW "balanced" Ph.D. programs out there, off the top of my head I can list you one of the more famous ones: Northwestern University (medical school-based program) that accepts 2.2% of applicants out of 300+ applicants. Again, statistically, your odds are against you, the selection process is nowhere near 100% objective in selecting candidates, but none-the-less, it's the best psychology has. If you have lower GRE's or GPA or possibly lacking research experience, many Psy.D. programs are more forgiving in these qualities to some degree. In my opinion, I think you should look at programs that typically yield higher APA internship match rates, have faculty members that are well known for their field of emphasis (i.e. neuropsychology, forensic psychology, etc.). Also, most Psy.D. programs (I want to say all, but I am not 100%) qualify for the extended tuition (instead of $20,500 a year, you should qualify up to $36,000...somewhere around that for a total of $224,000 in aggregate loan costs vs. the $130,500). Also, much like any professional program (law, medicine, etc.) you have the ability to serve underrepresented areas to have portions if not majority of your loans paid off in addition to your salary.

I figured I would at least provide you with an alternative perspective because you will get majority of respondent telling you to not even consider this path. Doing a simple BLS search will yield a new average salary for today's psychologists ($84K vs. $60's that has been quoted since the most recent revision of BLS data). Our field is changing, statistically, you will have a higher salary than an average social worker or LPC (this is excluding outliers). If approaching human behavior and treatment of abnormalities in human behavior via psychological science perspective is your cup of tea, I would still consider this path. If you believe you have other strengths elsewhere that could be equally applied (such as I/O psychology or medicine) then you could pursue that as well. These are simply my opinions, I have been an underdog my whole life and have always stayed the course despite opposition and have been successful at them...I hope this shines some light from another perspective.

 

[WisNeuro]

there are a select FEW "balanced" Ph.D. programs out there

I guess it depends on how you define "balanced," but I would contend that there are a TON of them out there. The thought that PhD's are more research than clinical focused is from a bygone era.

 

[463951]

Hello,

I applied to PhD/PsyD programs last year. Interviewed at a PhD program (wasn't accepted), and got into a PsyD program. I deferred my acceptance because of the huge price tag that comes along with it. I was told that the reason I didn't get interviews at more PhD programs was because of my GRE score being too low. Now that apps are nearly upon us again, I'm debating what to do next.

I'm fairly sure I just want to practice therapy. Maybe a little research here and there, but I'm currently a full time research assistant at a top-university and have very little interest in continuing a major career in research. Since you guys have been down this road, what would you reccommend? If I know that I pretty much only have an interest in being a clinician, is a Masters of Social Work or Counseling a better route? Or even a PsyD? I would like the opportunity to do assessments and direct a clinic of some sort, or maybe a private practice. I've read thread after thread about MSW vs. Psyd Vs. PhD vs. god knows what else, and it seems like everyone has a different view point. So, any and all advice is much appreciated.

Thanks!

It depends...the PsyD school you got into – is it a FSPS? University based? What are the cohort sizes? The match rates?

 

[MCParent]

there are a select FEW "balanced" Ph.D. programs out there

This isn't really correct. Most PhDs go on to clinical careers; it would be impossible for most PhD programs to be training primarily researchers (there are nowhere near the number of professorships for that to be possible).

...that accepts 2.2% of applicants out of 300+ applicants. Again, statistically, your odds are against you..

Also, this isn't really an accurate presentation of the data. Yes, individual funded PhD programs accept ~2-5% of applicants. But most people are not applying to just one program, so the acceptance rate is much higher than ~2-5%. So, simplified example: if those 300 applicants were applying to, say, 10 sites each, and each of the 10 sites takes, say, 7 students, then there are spots for 70 students and that means a 23% acceptance rate.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

That's the issue I have with the idea that applying to 10 sites that take 7 students leads to a potential 23% acceptance rate. This is assuming that all variables are considered equally. Given that, to quote a solid 23% is giving an absolute value to a not-so absolute phenomenon. A great example is someone who is going to apply to 15-20 funded Ph.D. programs with a GPA: <3.5 or a GRE: <50% and maybe gets one interview but not offer out of all of those programs. Again, this is only assuming for that type of demographic, this wouldn't assume someone else who has stellar GRE's vs. poor GPA, poor LOR or 0 research experience. Perhaps their credentials (i.e. undergraduate college alma mater) provide them an unfair advantage in the application process...these are all subjective forms of potentially evaluating a candidate's probability to A. get an interview, B. get an offer of acceptance. I think this is a big issue psychology as an applied field faces, the lack/ confusion in training future mental health professionals at the doctoral level applying the science of psychology.

 

[MCParent]

I wasn't saying 23% is the number, clearly; I said it was a simplified thought experiment. I was illustrating why the idea that extrapolating an individual program acceptance rate to the overall acceptance rate is not correct. The acceptance rate is obviously not going to be randomly dispersed among all applicants and will tend to go to higher gre/gpa, better fit, more research, etc. But it's far higher than 2%.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

I wasn't saying 23% is the number, clearly; I said it was a simplified thought experiment. I was illustrating why the idea that extrapolating an individual program acceptance rate to the overall acceptance rate is not correct. The acceptance rate is obviously not going to be randomly dispersed among all applicants and will tend to go to higher gre/gpa, better fit, more research, etc. But it's far higher than 2%.

Right, there are many programs that fluctuate between that 2-8% rate (give or take some). I think that applying to a multitude of program types (Ph.D. in clinical and counseling as well as Psy.D.) will help even out the odds for some people. As social/behavioral scientists, we also should take into consideration that while someone on paper looks like a "functional idiot" when evaluating their GRE scores or GPA, other factors may be neglected in the admissions process. A good example is: while every Texas Ph.D. program I have personally called or emailed gives you the cliche disclaimer "we don't have minimum GRE scores, we don't dismiss an applicant due solely to one criteria"...there are administrative staff members who spend their day filtering applicants on a spreadsheet via GRE cutoff scores. At the end of the day, a faculty member will never see what could have been a great fit to the program, or, they could have been the undesired person they previously labeled, either way, they didn't have a fair chance to plead their case.

I think Psy.D. programs provide that mobility to people in that situation as well as people who may want to learn and implement psychological services in a different perspective have a chance.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think Psy.D. programs provide that mobility to people in that situation as well as people who may want to learn and implement psychological services in a different perspective have a chance.

What different perspective is that?

 

[Sendtrees]

OP, what is your question, really? You mentioned that you've read threads on this topic, so I'm sure you have an idea of the kind of responses you're going to get. Your situation is not that different from most of the other people with similar questions--that is, you (wisely) do not want to go into ruinous debt for a PsyD, but you don't think you can get into a PhD program. The only thing that stands out to me about your situation is that you were thwarted by the GRE. There are many funded PhD programs that do not require extremely high GRE scores, so unless yours was way below average, there are probably other gaps in your CV. But if GRE was truly the barrier last time, why wouldn't you have invested whatever time and money you could into raising it? I can say this, any ambivalence you have now to spend 5-7 years making virtually no income (the best case scenario, not even considering debt) will only be magnified in graduate school.

 

[jdspk863]

OP, what is your question, really? You mentioned that you've read threads on this topic, so I'm sure you have an idea of the kind of responses you're going to get. Your situation is not that different from most of the other people with similar questions--that is, you (wisely) do not want to go into ruinous debt for a PsyD, but you don't think you can get into a PhD program. The only thing that stands out to me about your situation is that you were thwarted by the GRE. There are many funded PhD programs that do not require extremely high GRE scores, so unless yours was way below average, there are probably other gaps in your CV. But if GRE was truly the barrier last time, why wouldn't you have invested whatever time and money you could into raising it? I can say this, any ambivalence you have now to spend 5-7 years making virtually no income (the best case scenario, not even considering debt) will only be magnified in graduate school.

Believe, I've thought about investing more time and money into my GRE score. However, I have a visual processing LD that effects my mathematical abilities, therefore there is an enormous disparity between my verbal and quant GRE score. My verbal is above average and my quant is way below it. I have multiple poster presentations, pubs, worked in 3 research labs over the past 5 years and I'm currently a fulltime RA at a top-tier university. I was told by multiple schools that the only reason I didn't get in was my GRE score- I simply didn't reach the cut off mark.

The problem here is, I'm not sure that even if I do invest more time and money into my score, that I'll be able to raise it. I have a learning disability and that isn't going to go away. So I'm pretty much weighing my options. Yes, a PhD is preferable to a PsyD or MSW but I'm really unsure that I'll get in again. I'm wondering if a program that puts less emphasis on the GRE may be a better route (such as a PsyD).

 

[jdspk863]

I hate to be "that guy"...but, while KillerDiller does bring up some very valid points and important ones to consider, they are not the only ones to consider, and depending on your current abilities to attain your goal(s), these variables could be considerably different and more important than others. The Psy.D. is a very expensive path to take to become a licensed psychologist, this is probably the most obvious fact you have noticed, however, the Psy.D. accepts on average larger cohorts than a Ph.D. program will (even your top Pys.D. programs will admit roughly 16-20 people vs. the 4-12 that most Ph.D. programs fluctuate between). You probably already realized the Psy.D. emphasizes a more practitioner approach in applying psychological science, however, as KillerDiller mentioned, there are a select FEW "balanced" Ph.D. programs out there, off the top of my head I can list you one of the more famous ones: Northwestern University (medical school-based program) that accepts 2.2% of applicants out of 300+ applicants. Again, statistically, your odds are against you, the selection process is nowhere near 100% objective in selecting candidates, but none-the-less, it's the best psychology has. If you have lower GRE's or GPA or possibly lacking research experience, many Psy.D. programs are more forgiving in these qualities to some degree. In my opinion, I think you should look at programs that typically yield higher APA internship match rates, have faculty members that are well known for their field of emphasis (i.e. neuropsychology, forensic psychology, etc.). Also, most Psy.D. programs (I want to say all, but I am not 100%) qualify for the extended tuition (instead of $20,500 a year, you should qualify up to $36,000...somewhere around that for a total of $224,000 in aggregate loan costs vs. the $130,500). Also, much like any professional program (law, medicine, etc.) you have the ability to serve underrepresented areas to have portions if not majority of your loans paid off in addition to your salary.

I figured I would at least provide you with an alternative perspective because you will get majority of respondent telling you to not even consider this path. Doing a simple BLS search will yield a new average salary for today's psychologists ($84K vs. $60's that has been quoted since the most recent revision of BLS data). Our field is changing, statistically, you will have a higher salary than an average social worker or LPC (this is excluding outliers). If approaching human behavior and treatment of abnormalities in human behavior via psychological science perspective is your cup of tea, I would still consider this path. If you believe you have other strengths elsewhere that could be equally applied (such as I/O psychology or medicine) then you could pursue that as well. These are simply my opinions, I have been an underdog my whole life and have always stayed the course despite opposition and have been successful at them...I hope this shines some light from another perspective.

Do you know the livelihood of receiving the tuition reimbursement in exchange for working in underrepresented areas? Is it very competitive?

 

[WisNeuro]

Do you know the livelihood of receiving the tuition reimbursement in exchange for working in underrepresented areas? Is it very competitive?

I would advise against banking on this strategy at the outset. For one, some of these are 10 year based programs. So you have to be ready to live/work in one of those underrepresented areas for that long. Two, many of these are federal programs, and change agencies, change funding, change rules, etc. Hoping that they will remain unchanged for the next 20 years is something I would not be optimistic about. Before you make any decisions, be sure to crunch the numbers. Most people woefully underestimate how hard the loans will be to pay back.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

Do you know the livelihood of receiving the tuition reimbursement in exchange for working in underrepresented areas? Is it very competitive?

I can give you at least one example, it is obviously just one among several options out there, but the National Health Service Corps offers in addition to a $50K salary, that for a two year contract they will pay an additional $50K towards your private or federal student loans. If you reapply beyond those two years, the going rate for that should be $30K every year applied towards your loans. So, theoretically, if you had about $200+K in loans, working 7-8 years in under this program will have you squared away. However, they only award this to roughly 4500 candidates a year, and you would be competing against physicians, nurse practitioners, master's level mental health clinicians and dentists.

You would want to take all of the appropriate measures in finding a good Psy.D. that would make you competitive to be employed by the government, because they also assist in tuition repayment such as the Army or Navy, while they may not pay as much as the NHSC, it is still an amount of money that was paid that you didn't have to fork out. Another option is the Public Service Loan Repayment Program, they consolidate your loans to a reasonable payment per month, after 120 payments any remaining balance is forgiven. Whether or not you believe that is morally acceptable, you will have to make that judgement on your own, it's not mine to enforce upon you, but I should add that psychologists are not the primary benefactors of this program, many physicians and other health professionals take advantage of this as a tool to reciprocate for the advanced training they received and their ability to provide quality services to populations that may have otherwise not been able to afford to attain their skills or level education themselves.

What different perspective is that?

I think that was an incoherent thought on my end...sorry about that.

 

[MCParent]

Believe, I've thought about investing more time and money into my GRE score. However, I have a visual processing LD that effects my mathematical abilities, therefore there is an enormous disparity between my verbal and quant GRE score. My verbal is above average and my quant is way below it. I have multiple poster presentations, pubs, worked in 3 research labs over the past 5 years and I'm currently a fulltime RA at a top-tier university. I was told by multiple schools that the only reason I didn't get in was my GRE score- I simply didn't reach the cut off mark.

I'm aware of some people having problems getting accommodations for dyscalculia, etc., on the GRE, though I'm not sure how widespread those difficulties with accommodations are.

One suggestion would be to send out your "are you taking anyone" emails, and ask about the GRE cutoffs and your disability (which is documented?). Sometimes graduate schools impose hard cutoffs but faculty can keep an eye out for your app if you aren't below a hardline rule. I wouldn't want to have a super qualified applicant unfairly cut due to a disability, particularly if you have multiple pubs (presumably, demonstrating that your disability affects your standardized testing ability but not your performance in data cleaning, analysis, etc.?).