Advice needed

[gto5point7]

I am writing because I am trying to make some difficult decisions and thought some here may be able to help. I finished my first 2 years of undergraduate study an avg. student (3.1 GPA) but turned my academic career around my last two years to finish with a 3.44. (including 3.98 sr. year) I was able to make this transition because of my determination to go to a PsyD program, and ended up getting into my top choice (an offer I accepted) The program is university based, but lacks funding. The match rate is rather low from 2001-2006 (about 70) but has been in the 90s in recent years. Although I made every attempt to research my options, I failed to realize the extent to which I am going to be in debt due to this program. I am very excited about this opportunity, and have worked extremely hard to achieve it. However, I am having second thoughts as to whether or not this is the best decision for me to make. I will soon have to accept my first dispersement of student loans for the education, and it appears that the total amount I would have to take out will approach 120-150 thousand dollars (before interest). While I have looked up the average salaries for psychologists through the APA and the occupational outlook handbook, I don't know how these numbers reflect actual earning potential for psychologists. If, as the numbers indicate, I can expect to earn 50-65k annually while trying to pay off 150k in student loans, I believe I will have a very difficult time; especially if I live on the east coast. While my GRE's (1160) were sufficient for a 2nd tier university based PsyD, I dont think they would compete for admission to a PhD program. As I do enjoy research as well, I am wondering if I should examine potential fallback plans, such as social or school psychology. While clinical psychology private practice has been my primary objective, I do not know that I necessarily would enjoy it 150k more than another subdiscipline of psychology in which I could find a funded program and enjoy some degree of financial success upon graduation. Thanks guys...

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[JockNerd]

Your GREs are on the low side, but that can be rewritten. Do you have any experience in research or are you willing to get some over the next year or two? That would be the bigger factor in your PhD competitiveness. You do a lot of research in a PhD program but a large proportion of grads still end up in private practice, so you'll still be able to do what you want to do.

That's an astounding amount of debt. You could be paying that off for decades if you went down that road. I think looking at other options is a good decision.

 

[gto5point7]

I do have some research experience. I performed an undergraduate thesis and did a poster presentation of it at the southwestern psychological association conference. I hired a tutor for the quant section and really studied hard for the GREs last time around, and I really felt like it was the best I could do. However, I suppose giving it another go would be a gamble worth the 100k+ it could save me in debt.

 

[psychanon]

Maybe you should seriously consider doing an MSW. If your primary goal is private practice, you could achieve that perfectly well as an MSW (whereas you could not with a social ph.d.), and the salaries are almost as high. It will only take 2 years, meaning far less debt. While your credentials may make it difficult (but not at all impossible) for you to get into a funded Ph.D. program, I bet they could get you into a top MSW program. I think the MSW route makes more sense than the Psy.D. for those interested in practice-- less time, less debt, similar career prospects.

An alternative is to apply for funded counseling Ph.D. programs. They are somewhat less competitive than clinical Ph.D.s, but offer similar training.

 

[clearcolor]

Don't take the loans. Don't start the program. With this much anxiety a few months before classes start, it will likely increase once you are in school. Get out now before you have any debt.

I think the MSW idea may be a good one. What do you think?

 

[KillerDiller]

Before you decide to completely give up the ghost on this school, I recommend contacting the financial aid office and asking if there are any graduate fellowships available at the university. Sometimes you can obtain partial funding outside of your department if you work in admissions or human resources or student activities for a few hours a week.

 

[ny1020]

For those interested mainly in practice, I would vote for a MSW. I've talked to a lot of LMSW's who are in private practice, graduating with moderate debt, from great schools, and not regretting not getting a phd/psyd at all. If I were interested in practice, that's the route I would go. Most insurances will pay for your services, as long as you're licensed.

I think the real question is, what do you want to do? If you want to teach at a university level, do research and practice, then I guess a doctorate is the only way to go. But for practice alone, MSW's are incredibly versatile. You can work at hospitals, clinics, private practice, high schools (I know someone who is teaching Spanish and running afternoon groups at a private high school with his LMSW.)

I don't know much about counseling phd's, unfortunately. Wish I could help you there!

But, sorry to be cliched, trust your gut. No need to walk into 6 years of training with dread.

 

[JockNerd]

For the OP: Decent cumulative GPA, very good last 2 yrs and psych marks, and research experience including a poster presentation... I'd say you'd be competitive at a funded PhD or PsyD program, esp. if you brought your GRE up and spent the interim year doing something meaningful to your application (work as an RA, which shouldn't be hard to get with your experience, maybe enroll as a special student and take one or two grad lelvel courses, if possible).

Frankly, I think your tutor was probably not very good. Did he/she have experience tutoring for the GRE? It's really not a test of math ability as much as a test of ability to do a particular *kind* of math problem. You really have to learn the tricks and shortcuts that come up over and over in the quant section more than the math itself. I'm certainly no math genius (and I HATE algebra and geometry in particular) but I was able to do very well just learning the quant section tricks from a study guide.

An alternative is to apply for funded counseling Ph.D. programs. They are somewhat less competitive than clinical Ph.D.s, but offer similar training.

Psychanon: Is this your experience? My experience is that all well-funded programs--Clinical PhD, Counseling PhD, PsyD--are all very competitive, and to about the same degree.

MSWs are great. My thesis advisor was actually an MSW. Her position allowed her to engage in practice most of the day (which she loved), host seminars and workshops (she's very well known across Canada for her homophobia-on-campus awareness workshops), train the University Peer counselors, and do research using the Uni. resources whenever she felt like it. Plus she has tenure, working in the Uni. counseling centre. Great gig if you can get it.

 

[gto5point7]

Thanks a ton guys, this insight is very helpful...I have a lot of thinking to do over the next couple weeks. Although I really want to do this PsyD program, I think taking a year off to look at other options and strengthen my resume may be the best thing for me. As for the MSW, my thinking was that the PsyD may give me a higher ceiling (such as administrative roles) and prestige. I also very much enjoy studying psychology and was looking forward to further study of it.

 

[psychanon]

Psychanon: Is this your experience? My experience is that all well-funded programs--Clinical PhD, Counseling PhD, PsyD--are all very competitive, and to about the same degree.

I don't have any direct experience with this, but I've heard that counseling Ph.Ds are somewhat less competitive than clinical (although still competitive-- I don't mean to imply otherwise). I think they get somewhat fewer applications. They're still tough to get into, but maybe are worth a shot, esp since the OP's credentials are pretty decent.

Thanks a ton guys, this insight is very helpful...I have a lot of thinking to do over the next couple weeks. Although I really want to do this PsyD program, I think taking a year off to look at other options and strengthen my resume may be the best thing for me. As for the MSW, my thinking was that the PsyD may give me a higher ceiling (such as administrative roles) and prestige. I also very much enjoy studying psychology and was looking forward to further study of it.

I think you made the right decision in taking time off. I do think you should avoid falling into the "prestige" trap. It is NOT worth 6 years of your life + $150K in debt to be called doctor. From what I hear, the thrill of being called doctor wears off in a couple of months. You would still be studying psychology as an MSW student-- just in a different school. I'm not sure if it's true that PsyD's get a higher ceiling. I think that's a misperception (although there may be MSWs/PsyD's out there who know more than me about this). I used to work in an environment where MSWs, Ph.D.s (counseling and clinical), and Psy.D.s all worked together, and nobody even knew who had what degree unless they took a very careful look at the person's ID badge. In fact, the head therapist-- who was in charge of everyone else-- was an MSW.

 

[gto5point7]

o.k...so the best thing for me seems to be to try again for a funded program. With my GPA (3.44), is it essential that I retake stats class? Although I got a C plus first time around, I have gotten a's in research 1, ,2, and 3 since. I also think I can get a RA before ap time comes around. Not taking stats would allow me to focus more on getting those GRE scores up (520 V, 640 Q), which would give me a great shot, I think.

 

[sicologia]

I think you're making a wise decision to retake the GRE while looking at your other options. The one thing that worries me is that so often people think it would be a good idea to resort to School Psychology in the event that their scores don't qualify. My advice would be to go for what you set out to be! School Psychology is not necessarily an easier degree. In fact, to many, it may prove more difficult if it's not their first interest. I've read and heard it before. People have made this suggestion throughout these threads, but I think it would likely make someone who is primarily interested in Clinical Psychology a good bit frustrated.

 

[terrybug]

Just to play Devil's advocate - what if the PsyD is really the perfect way to get you to where you want to go?

Are PsyD programs only for 2 kinds of people: the very rich who can handle the tuition; and the very clueless who have no idea what their education will cost?

Are there really no students AT ALL in these programs who know what a PsyD will cost and at the same time aren't full of cash?


I don't know what the answer is. Maybe a PsyD really is strictly for the rich or those with a high tolerance for risk.

 

[JockNerd]

Just to play Devil's advocate - what if the PsyD is really the perfect way to get you to where you want to go?

Are PsyD programs only for 2 kinds of people: the very rich who can handle the tuition; and the very clueless who have no idea what their education will cost?

Are there really no students AT ALL in these programs who know what a PsyD will cost and at the same time aren't full of cash?

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe a PsyD really is strictly for the rich or those with a high tolerance for risk.

Well, I think the OP expressed in the original post that he or she knows what a PsyD *can* cost, and isn't full of cash. He or she seems to me to be competitive for a funded program (with a GRE boost and in interim year spent doing some RA work), so I say go for the funded prog.

I think the OP wasn't so much expressing that the PsyD wasn't a fit as much as he or she was expressing that the expense of a nonfunded program wasn't a fit. I think that's a reasonable and mature decision.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It sounds like a PsyD fits what you want, but if you want a fully funded option, you are going to have to really work to get one of the handful of funded spots. Definitely work on your GRE, which is low for clinical standards. More RA experience can only help (I interviewed at half PsyD's and half PhD's, and I was competitive in PhD and seen very favorably against the PsyD applicants bc of my strong research background)

-t

 

[gto5point7]

Do you guys think it will look bad to other schools if I withdraw an acceptance at this point?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

No.

It may not be ideal (so late in the game), but committing yourself to something for the next 5-7 years that isn't the right fit for you, is not in your best interest or that of the program.

-t