Advice on matching Osteopathic NS

[judasreznor]

Having looked up on the Opportunities site that there are only about ten programs (now that LIJ has been converted to an Allo program) and noticing that that leaves a very few spots for Osteopathic students to apply to, how does one separate themselves from others in the DO NS match besides COMLEX scores? Is there any particular advice for matching? Also, is research a necessity to match?

It appears that there was only a 50% or so match rate from the 2011 DO GME data.

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[james2333]

Yeah neurosurgery is still competitive even in the AOA world. I think <50% who apply for it get it. A lot of those applicants will have backup specialties. I'd say you def. need >600 on COMLEX. Of course there are the exceptions but usually those students are well connected or they spent a year doing a transitional year/internship first. Some programs may deny it, but depending on who the PD is they may look at your USMLE score to see how competitive you are. The AOA applicants who are personally know that matched were within the top 10% of their class, >600 COMLEX, honors on rotations, and had some form of research experience. There are a few programs that don't care about research however. If you want match ACGME the standards are even higher...and the match will be a crapshoot, your USMLE needs to be >245 to even have a chance. Letters of Rec are also very important as well so make sure you secure those early on in your 4th year.

Another factor to consider is the possible ACGME/AOA merge. From what I hear some programs won't make it past ACGME's accreditation standards so be weary of that.

 

[InTheMaking]

Yeah neurosurgery is still competitive even in the AOA world. I think <50% who apply for it get it. A lot of those applicants will have backup specialties. I'd say you def. need >600 on COMLEX. Of course there are the exceptions but usually those students are well connected or they spent a year doing a transitional year/internship first. Some programs may deny it, but depending on who the PD is they may look at your USMLE score to see how competitive you are. The AOA applicants who are personally know that matched were within the top 10% of their class, >600 COMLEX, honors on rotations, and had some form of research experience. There are a few programs that don't care about research however. If you want match ACGME the standards are even higher...and the match will be a crapshoot, your USMLE needs to be >245 to even have a chance. Letters of Rec are also very important as well so make sure you secure those early on in your 4th year.

Another factor to consider is the possible ACGME/AOA merge. From what I hear some programs won't make it past ACGME's accreditation standards so be weary of that.

I would be wary of speculating far ahead about what the ACGME/AOA merger will do. With so few spots and usually 30-50 applicants per year, I would advise you do as much as you can as early as you can. Many osteopathic schools are not located close to the programs so during your first two years crush all your classes and score well on your COMLEX. You can try and read intense neurosurgery texts but you will not remember them, so you need to focus on neurologic exam (knowing how to localize), dermatomes, etc.

Your third and fourth year should have at least 3 audition rotations and early. Each rotation should be at an AOA program and you should get a SOLID letter from each program director. If you'd like to know exactly what I did, you can contact me through my blog "TheParamount". Pick where you go well, it is well known which programs are flourishing and which are not.

I think research sets you apart, but it is not make or break like ACGME (don't even think of ACGME without a solid research CV).

While it is true that many candidates are >600, top of their class... this is not guarantee for neurosurgery. I have seen many candidates that are 550, top 25% etc, that WOW in interviews and do very well in residency.

Honestly, just as in med school, grades, scores, etc get your foot into the interview. The interview (and any audition rotation) with the program is what gets you into the program.

You can ask me specifically if you have exact questions.

 

[judasreznor]

@InTheMaking

Some specific Q's:

1. How do you get research if your school doesn't have an NS dept and doesn't really have one close by?

2. Is there still a shot even if you're not top of your class (maybe top 40-50%) if you do well on COMLEX?

3. Where should you rotate if you have those deficiencies (i.e. where are places that aren't super high on numbers)?

4. What if you don't match? Is doing a prelim year at a place with an NS program and reapplying a smart idea?

 

[InTheMaking]

@InTheMaking

Some specific Q's:

1. How do you get research if your school doesn't have an NS dept and doesn't really have one close by?

2. Is there still a shot even if you're not top of your class (maybe top 40-50%) if you do well on COMLEX?

3. Where should you rotate if you have those deficiencies (i.e. where are places that aren't super high on numbers)?

4. What if you don't match? Is doing a prelim year at a place with an NS program and reapplying a smart idea?

1. Its difficult. You could contact program coordinators for the osteo programs to see if there is any opportunity. You could also wait to get on a rotation and ask a resident.

2. Yes very much so. Your grades and COMLEX scores get you in the door to interview and you finish the job with how you do in the interview.

3. There is no right answer here. I would take a look at all the programs (I think there are only 8-9 now with the loss of Long Island, Dayton and Chicago). I would rotate at the ones that offer two spots since that offers you a better chance at getting in. I think based on previous years that the city of brotherly love is pretty big on scores.

4. I don't know about this. I've seen one person do that successfully. I matched so I'm not sure what I would have done. I do know that its important for you to know what your backup plan is though.

 

[judasreznor]

1. Its difficult. You could contact program coordinators for the osteo programs to see if there is any opportunity. You could also wait to get on a rotation and ask a resident.

2. Yes very much so. Your grades and COMLEX scores get you in the door to interview and you finish the job with how you do in the interview.

3. There is no right answer here. I would take a look at all the programs (I think there are only 8-9 now with the loss of Long Island, Dayton and Chicago). I would rotate at the ones that offer two spots since that offers you a better chance at getting in. I think based on previous years that the city of brotherly love is pretty big on scores.

4. I don't know about this. I've seen one person do that successfully. I matched so I'm not sure what I would have done. I do know that its important for you to know what your backup plan is though.

Thank you for your help. It seems like matching is an incredible crapshoot, especially with not having many programs and probably having the same number of applicants per year. I had no idea that all of those programs had closed (had heard about LIJ, but not the others). I know you said you're not sure what you would have done, but what can one do? It would be really tough to scramble into another surgical spot, even general surgery. That's pretty scary.

 

[InTheMaking]

Thank you for your help. It seems like matching is an incredible crapshoot, especially with not having many programs and probably having the same number of applicants per year. I had no idea that all of those programs had closed (had heard about LIJ, but not the others). I know you said you're not sure what you would have done, but what can one do? It would be really tough to scramble into another surgical spot, even general surgery. That's pretty scary.

I'm not sure if they are officially closed but I dont think they are accepting. For the most accurate info contact each program individually

 

[DrPapa]

I applied to both DO and MD programs and I can say the biggest factor is your audition rotation. Your scores and grades can help or hurt your chances, but they can both be overlooked if you absolutely kill your audition rotation. Most AOA programs won't even look at you if you don't rotate there.

I had a 665 and a 244, top 2% in my class and two publications. I only received interviews at the AOA programs in which I rotated. I went on a total of three AOA interviews & 7 ACGME. Nothing made up for the impressions I made and relationships I established during my rotations there.

The gen surg prelim to neurosurgery route has been done before. I believe the current intern at Carilion did it. Of course, it is not easy, but getting into neurosurgery isn't easy no matter which route you go. I got extremely lucky to get my spot, just happened to do the right rotation and got along we'll with the people there.

I think ACGME is becoming slightly more DO friendly as well, but that will all depend on your rotations too. I had many places reject me straight up because I was a DO, but there were some that were willing to give me a shot. Unfortunately, places that currently have a DO may not be willing to take another, so you have to find the DO friendly ones that don't currently have a DO in their ranks (or find one willing to take two).

A few that come to mind are MUSC, Minnesota, UC Davis, SUNY, New Mexico...