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ADVICE ON SGU vs. ROSS vs AUC

Discussion in 'General International Discussion' started by twinklerolly, Apr 9, 2002.

  1. twinklerolly

    twinklerolly New Member

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    From the research I've gathered, I have found that most people feel that these three schools are the "better" of the carib. med schools. I hear a lot about SGU on this forum and a little about Ross but not much on AUC. I am still waiting to hear from all three of these schools but does anyone have any advice on AUC. I would like to go to SGU and my second choice was Ross but after my interview with Ross the school didn't really impress me and I don't know if I can "tough it out" in Dominica. would AUC be a good alternative (?) because the living conditions are better but i want to make sure the quality of education is there as well. thanks! :) :)
     
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  3. chesspro_md

    chesspro_md Member

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    Make sure that you do a lot of research before you go to AUC. Also make sure where you will do your clinicals. I am a ross student. I know a lot of people from AUC because when they fail out of ross that is where they go a lot of the time. I can't tell you whether ross or sgu will give you a better education. I can tell you that they are both very good schools with excellent rotations. And to answer your question, you can hack it in dominica. Its not that bad. The neuro prof at ross came from sgu and he said that there isn't much difference between the islands. So my advice would be to look at the rotations that the schools have and see which school has the best. I'm sure that both ross and sgu have about the same education standards and board pass rates. I know that you can't go wrong with ross. I just took my step one and i don't think that i could have been better prepared for that test. But i'm sure that sgu students feel the same way. I hope this helps.
     
  4. roadie

    roadie Member

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    I can't comment on ross or AUC as I have never been a student there. I am very happy at SGU and would highly reccomend it. Let me know if you have any specific questions.
     
  5. kowboy

    kowboy Junior Member

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    From my experience investigating those schools mentioned, I'd say SGU is definitely the best, then AUC, then Ross a distant 3rd. I've heard too many horror stories from Ross students complaining about the education, professors, drop out rate, etc. I'm sure it's what you make it, but I'd rather goto SGU or AUC if I had the choice. Good luck!
     
  6. twinklerolly

    twinklerolly New Member

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    Kowboy...thanks for the advice about the schools. I am still waiting to hear from st.georges but if i don't get in there i need to make a decision between ross and auc and that is my problem! Do you know students that go to AUC or did you go there? I am getting mixed responses so i'm just trying to make an educated decision. any additional advice would be great!
     
  7. WonderBoy

    Physician

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    Twinkly Rolly,

    I would go to SGU, if i had to choose between the three. Both AUC and Ross have their problems. Even though SGU is expensive, at least you know you are getting a good education and you have an environment conducive to learning. Check out this Ross board for honest opinions of program their. <a href="http://planetross.tripod.com/." target="_blank">http://planetross.tripod.com/.</a> Go to the main forum. Good luck in your decision.
     
  8. WonderBoy

    Physician

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    meant to say Twinkle Rolly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
     
  9. ApacheIndian

    ApacheIndian philomath

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    None of the above. Do whatever you have to do... re-take the MCATs, wait another year, WHATEVER... but DO NOT GO TO A "FOREIGN" school. Sorry to sound so cynical, but I speak from experience. The trials and tribulations you'll face as an IMG (it's a dirty word) are just not worth it. Good luck.
     
  10. Careofme

    Careofme Senior Member

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    ...so go US D.O. over M.D. Foreign, right?

    Careofme
     
  11. ApacheIndian

    ApacheIndian philomath

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Careofme:
    <strong>...so go US D.O. over M.D. Foreign, right?

    Careofme</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmm... now THAT'S somewhat debatable. I personally would rather go the "foreign" MD route than the U.S. DO route, but I'm certain that MANY people on these boards would emphatically disagree with me.
     
  12. Careofme

    Careofme Senior Member

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    Dr. Cuts,

    I'm in a position to make that decision and would be curious to hear your rational.

    Thanks,

    Careofme
     
  13. ApacheIndian

    ApacheIndian philomath

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Careofme:
    <strong>Dr. Cuts,
    I'm in a position to make that decision and would be curious to hear your rational.
    Thanks,
    Careofme</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">lol, I'm not actually a doctor yet... just an MS III (Caribbean)... don't want to mislead anyone.

    I was hoping no one would ask me this b/c I'm certain that lots of people will disagree with my rationale (and it's not really all that rational rationale <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ). Here's what I think: As long as one isn't shooting for one of the ultra-competitive residencies (CT/Neuro Surg, Derm, Plastics, etc.), that [supposed] slight edge gained by being a DO vs. a Caribbean MD grad just isn't worth it in my opinion. Why, you ask? Well, assuming both these grads get the residencies they want, the scorecard will be even EXCEPT that the DO will always be a "DO" and never an "MD." Why does that matter? Well, although I think it's very silly and illogical, DO's are for some reason percieved as 2nd rate docs in America. True, Caribbean students are probably percieved as being even inferior to them, but after graduation and residency acceptance, no one will ever ask, know, or care where the "MD" went to medical school... they'll just know that he is indeed an MD. How will this affect the DO's career? Who knows... maybe it won't, but maybe it will. My opinion is that I wouldn't want to carry this unfair, inaccurate stigma with me for the rest of my career.

    I don't mean to offend anyone by any of this, and if anyone can shed some more light on the topic, I too would be interested.
     
  14. Catherine

    Catherine Senior Member

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    I can understand where dr_cuts is coming from, but I don't agree. Don't underestimate the pressures of going foreign. Med schools apps are at an all time low (since 1990) and there are going to be 2 more DO schools. For the applicant that failed to get into MD or DO school going abroad isn't going to help - if you can't get into med school with the odds in your favour then you won't be able to cope with the added pressure of going foreign and being a poor academic.

    If you can't face going DO then do a master's or something - retake the MCAT.

    As for quality of education - well it's pretty much down to the individual no matter where you are. Although, I imagine without any structure it just makes life more difficult.

    One point about having a badge with DO - at least everyone knows you went to a US school. With MD you could have gone anywhere - ok, if you've got an American accent then the odds are on your side - but what you going to say when someone does ask you where you went to school? Are you going to hang your certificate on the wall in your office - or will you be more "embarrased" than the DO?

    There's an awful lot of people out there who went foreign, failed, and left with nothing except huge debts.

    The carribean's great for a beach holiday - not an education.
     
  15. steiner19er

    steiner19er Senior Member

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    This is a dumb question... But is anyone at any caribean Med School who got accepted to an american Med school?? Just wondering
     
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  17. ApacheIndian

    ApacheIndian philomath

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Catherine:
    <strong>
    The carribean's great for a beach holiday - not an education.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey :D I like that... I'm gonna use that...
     
  18. Careofme

    Careofme Senior Member

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    Okay,
    Well, not only have I found that I agree more with the DO philosophy but I am also interested in a more competitive residency you mentioned above. I think I'll go US DO then.

    Thanks for you candid opinion though, its nice to see on here! :)

    Take care and good luck on your rotations - let me know how they are going.

    Careofme
     
  19. ApacheIndian

    ApacheIndian philomath

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Careofme:
    <strong>Okay,
    Well, not only have I found that I agree more with the DO philosophy but I am also interested in a more competitive residency you mentioned above. I think I'll go US DO then.
    Thanks for you candid opinion though, its nice to see on here! :)
    Take care and good luck on your rotations - let me know how they are going.

    Careofme</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Will do... good luck.
     
  20. ajy521

    ajy521 New Member

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    Steiner

    Not a dumb question, and yes I got into a couple DO schools as did my roomate but chose SGU instead. If you would like to hear my reasons behing my decision I'd be more than happy to provide them.

    AJ
     
  21. Careofme

    Careofme Senior Member

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    Ajy,

    I'm not "steiner" but please PROVIDE... :cool:

    Careofme
     
  22. steiner19er

    steiner19er Senior Member

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    ajy521 :
    I think it would be cool to know. I asked this b/c a few years back a buddy of mine (you know the guy that is in every class with you), swears he got accepted into a US. med school (MD) but chose to got to Ross instead. He swore he thought they had a better program then this US med school, and that Ross's board scores were comparible. He ended up going to Ross, dropping out (medical reasons he says) by Christmas time. I ran into him the next year, he had reapplied and was accepted into another US med school (again MD) and is currently there as a M2. Now I hate to be a doubter, but his whole story, how he got accepted to this first US med school is questionable, unless that is if Ross is better then the average midwestern US med school that he supposedly turned down.
     
  23. ApacheIndian

    ApacheIndian philomath

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Catherine:
    <strong>For the applicant that failed to get into MD or DO school going abroad isn't going to help...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's a false assumption Catherine... you should know that the vast majority of American Caribbean med students never applied to DO schools. Rather, they chose Caribbean Allopathic med schools first.
     
  24. Atlas

    Atlas Senior Member

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    What are your feelings regarding Ross's policy that if you fail a class, you must repeat (and pay tuition for) the entire semester all over again?
     
  25. Skip Intro

    Skip Intro Registered User

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    I'm going to be a M2 starting at Ross in about 2 weeks. I just finished my first year and I wanted to post a response, in particular, to Catherine's excellent post.

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Catherine:

    ...

    Med schools apps are at an all time low (since 1990)...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, I think they were at an all time low in 1995-96. They may actually be back on the rise, especially with the U.S. economy turning a bit sour.

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For the applicant that failed to get into MD or DO school going abroad isn't going to help - if you can't get into med school with the odds in your favour then you won't be able to cope with the added pressure of going foreign and being a poor academic.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree. If you are a poor academic, you're going to struggle no matter where you are. Ross is no cakewalk, I can tell you. Plenty of students fail the courses, mainly due to poor study habits. But, it's not as many as you think and there is an opportunity to repeat courses (without having to repeat an entire semester). Fortunately, I've passed all mine so far.

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you can't face going DO then do a master's or something - retake the MCAT.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure, that's great if you have time. Personally, I'm a bit of an "older" student (let's just say 30+) and couldn't afford anymore time. Likewise, I didn't even bother applying through the AMCAS system this time. I applied originally in 1993 and was not accpted. After working for several years, I decided that this is really what I wanted do and Ross offered me a quick opportunity to matriculate.

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As for quality of education - well it's pretty much down to the individual no matter where you are. Although, I imagine without any structure it just makes life more difficult.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with this statement.

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">One point about having a badge with DO - at least everyone knows you went to a US school.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And, with an M.D. no one knows where you went to school unless they ask... (you address this below).

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">With MD you could have gone anywhere - ok, if you've got an American accent then the odds are on your side - but what you going to say when someone does ask you where you went to school? Are you going to hang your certificate on the wall in your office - or will you be more "embarrased" than the DO?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes; there is definitely the "shame"/"hide your shingle" factor involved with any U.S. who goes the I.M.G. route. I think many say, when asked, that they did their training in New York (or whatever state they did 3rd and 4th years) or state where they did their residency. I'm not going to misrepresent the fact that very few are proud that they went off-shore for their education.

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There's an awful lot of people out there who went foreign, failed, and left with nothing except huge debts.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, but not as many as you think. And, these folks probably did not get into a U.S. school for good reason. Still, there are many who are now practising in the U.S. and have even achieved some coveted positions at large hospitals and teaching institutions. Again, like you said, it's all up to the individual. You need to seriously consider going the Caribbean route before you commit.

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The carribean's great for a beach holiday - not an education.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You have OBVIOUSLY not been to Dominica. :D There's really nothing to do there except study and, maybe if you have a little free time, SCUBA dive or hike. It's a pretty place, but it makes you miss the U.S. and what we all take for granted.
     
  26. Skip Intro

    Skip Intro Registered User

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by steiner19er:
    I think it would be cool to know. I asked this b/c a few years back a buddy of mine (you know the guy that is in every class with you), swears he got accepted into a US. med school (MD) but chose to got to Ross instead. He swore he thought they had a better program then this US med school, and that Ross's board scores were comparible. He ended up going to Ross, dropping out (medical reasons he says) by Christmas time. I ran into him the next year, he had reapplied and was accepted into another US med school (again MD) and is currently there as a M2. Now I hate to be a doubter, but his whole story, how he got accepted to this first US med school is questionable, unless that is if Ross is better then the average midwestern US med school that he supposedly turned down.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Steiner:

    We've got a guy in my class at Ross who has pretty much said the same thing... except, his reason was that it was so much more expensive to go U.S. private than to go to Ross. This guy is VERY bright and has great course scores (supposedly), but I think there are a lot of fish tales that go around that place too.

    I don't think anyone, myself included, would've gone to Ross had we gotten accepted pretty much anywhere in the U.S. (with maybe one or two exceptions that I won't name here - and, I wouldn't have gone at all if that had been the case).

    Personally, I think that the Ross board scores are a bit exagerrated. Everyone likes to show-off their posterchild for excellence, but this doesn't necessarily reflect the mean scores. There was a student last year who scored a 266 on Step I. Of course, the University was very proud of this fact and plastered it on every official news release and University publicationt they could. The kid, I heard, transferred to Tulane starting M3.

    What this does is make other students think, "Yeah, I'll go to Ross, get done quickly, and still get a 240 on Step I." I just don't see the evidence that it works like that. Now, they have a very rigorous pre-clinical program that is, in my opinion, excellent. They get you off the island in 16 months. And, if your GPA is below a 2.6, you have to take and pass the NBME comprehensive shelf before you can continue to the 9 week Miami program.

    Fine.

    This still does not mean that every student (like many currently and wrongfully believe) is going to score 240+ on Step I. The majority will score, I believe, in the 190-210 range. A few may get into the 220-230 range. And, yes, we've got a few geniuses who (how they didn't end-up with a U.S. spot I'll never know) who are going to easily break 230. But, that is rarer than the school would like people to believe, in my opinion.
     
  27. ajy521

    ajy521 New Member

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    Careofme and Steiner,

    I did a lot of research and asked many doctors about whether to go DO or go to SGU. I got a lot of different answers. However they all said that regardless of where you go, get an MD residency because that will open the most doors. For example the hospital I work at has a policy that says that they won't hire anyone who has completed a DO residency. I decided that in order to get a good MD residency I would have to do well on the USMLE. SGU prepares its students extremely well for the test as the numbers show, so that was a plus. There were a few other reasons behind my decision like location of the schools etc.. but ultimately I felt that what matters the most is going to the school where you think you will be the happiest and where you see yourself doing well. I went down to vist SGU and really liked it there and was impressed with everything I saw and thus definitely felt I would do well there. I didn't feel this way after visiting the DO schools. In the end it wasn't about the DO vs. Offshore MD thing but where I thought I would do the best because that's what ultimately will decide my future, not whether I am DO or a foriegn graduate. Those are just my thoughts, sorry its kind of long.

    AJ
     
  28. The Pill Counter

    The Pill Counter Senior Member

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    Could an SGU student clarify this, because it's been debated before, and I didn't get a straight answer: What is the tuition costs of SGU. My impression was that it is ~$28000 per academic year for a total of five academic years all done within four calendar years. Is that correct? I had gone through the app. process, but pulled out towards the end. By the way, I've met DO's and SGU grads who've gotten great spots in MD residencies in the States, but the DO friend himself said the situation is very different now than a few years ago, and that medical subspecialty fellowships have become much more competitive.
     
  29. ajy521

    ajy521 New Member

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    Steiner,
    Sorry I didn't fully address your question. Yeah, I know the type of guy your talking about. He's the guy who said that you couldn't get into med school w/o an A in Organic and basically perpetuated all the premed rumors there are out there. I too would be very skeptical hearing a story like that. I know I was when someone from another carib med schoold told me he got into a US MD school. One of the reasons he said he went offshore was because of lowered cost which made me even more skeptical. All I can say is that while down visiting SGU many students said that they never considered DO schools, some said they got in but chose not to go, and many said that if they had been accepted to DO they would have gone. So I guess it's really up to the individual. As I mentioned in my previous post my goal is to get a MD residency because I would like to come back and practice in the general area of where I live now. Unfortunately DO residencies are not recognized here. On top of that a lot of allopathic residency programs don't accept the COMLEX only, especially for the specialties I'm interested in. Since I'm shooting for a good USMLE score I want to go where I'll be the most prepared for it. The first time pass rate for DO students on the USMLE is not that great which is understandable since their education is not geared towards it. In closing, If all allopathic residency programs accepted the COMLEX, if where I wanted to practice medicine accepted DO residencies, and if I thought I wouldn't do well living in the carribbean there is absolutely no question I would go to a DO school. Hope this helps.
    AJ
     
  30. dbiddy808

    dbiddy808 Senior Member

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    You know that you can go to a DO school, take the USMLE and do a MD residency, right?
     
  31. Catherine

    Catherine Senior Member

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    The applicant figures are available at the AAMC web site from 1992-2001 :37,402,42,806,45,360,46,586,46,965,43,016, 40,996,38,443,37,089,34,859

    A friend of mine went to SGU and is now PGY1 fam practice - but it's been an uphill struggle for her and her loans are around 180k - that's just for med school. Sure you will find people that transfer and people that get great residency spots, but for US FMG's that's not the norm.

    I believe that many of the people who drop out of places such as SGU and Ross would have made it through a DO school. Also, the individual that makes it through SGU/Ross would have made it through a US MD school. People fail to get into US med schools for many reasons. If the main reason was academic then they will fail out of an off-shore program.

    In such a case you're better off at a DO school. More support and structure, and COMLEX is easier than USMLE. You're also eligible for scholarships and loans that off shore students can't get. Why make life tough on yourself?

    You also need to be level headed about medicine - consider my friend - 180k in loans, 30 years old, in family practice. Really, that just doesn't make sense. It's like having a mortgage and no house to show for it. The salary in fam practice is not all that.

    Off shore schools are there just to make big profits for the immoral people that run them. They prey on people who have hopes, dreams, and ambitions. But, in many cases, those individuals would be better off taking a good look at themselves - a career in medicine isn't all there is to life, it's a job - you need balance in your life. People with such obsessive personalities need to carefuly examine their true motivations, other interests, and feelings of self worth.

    I remember seeing a document showing the high levels of default loans attributed to students that had dropped out of off shore med schools. This isn't surprising. What is surprising is that once this was identified why didn't the government stop backing such loans? Basically, huge amounts of tax dollars are going straight into the pockets of greedy and selfish individuals who could care less about your dreams and future.

    But, if you really have to go off shore it seems that SGU is the only school worth considering. Over the years all other off shore schools, including Ross, have had some pretty severe problems. Granted, the tution is outrageous, but that's just a personal opinion.
     
  32. dbiddy808

    dbiddy808 Senior Member

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    I don't think Catherine knows much about offshore schools. I agree that these are for-profit businesses. I also agree that FP is not the most financially wise thing for anyone to do, regardless of where you went to school, but there is more to life than money (as there is also more to life than being a doctor). I'd say that being happy is the most important thing, and if being an FP is what makes you happy, then more power to you.

    Not all caribbean grads go into FP. I went to Saba and will be doing internal medicine in my home state with plans of doing a fellowship afterwards. I expect to make at least $250K when I am in practice. Internal medicine and internal medicine fellowships are wide open for caribbean grads. Even competetive fields such as cardiology and gastroenterology are obtainable, as I know several PGY-2/3 IMGs who have already accepted fellowships in these fields. Many other fields are easy for us to obtain, such as general surgery, ObGyn, pathology, psychiatry, PM&R, and many other relatively lucrative fields.

    If a caribbean student is bright and works hard he/she will have no troubles getting through basic sciences, getting good USMLE scores (mine were well above the US national average) an they will be able to get a good residency and a good job afterwards. Most people make contacts during residency that lead to future jobs. Most of these contacts will know your skills first-hand and if you are good, they won't care what school you went to.

    If I could do it all over again, I really don't think I would change a thing. I never worked hard as a high school or college student, but I always knew that whenever I really wanted to excel at anything I could. I enjoyed life. As a result of not pushing myself early, I feel that I still have alot of energy to study and work hard as an intern/resident. Also, I think that I am a much more well-rounded person than most of the over-achievers who have spent their entire lives worrying about being number one.

    And as far as being ashamed of being an offshore grad (like mentioned in previous posts), I think this is bs. If some uptight a-hole gives me attitude I won't give a ****. I don't have time for these types of people. All that matters is how good you are at what you do. Your co-workers, staff and patients will see this first-hand and that is all that matters.
     
  33. njdevil

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    This is always an interesting topic. I have worked with students from MD schools, DO school, Off-shore schools and foreign schools. The actually kind of doctor you are depends on how hard you work, how much you care, and of course naturally abilities.

    My off-shore friends complain about money. There are a lot of extra hoops they have to jump over such as CSA exams etc. A large portion from some schools match. There board scores are really important. More important than a US MD or DO. Generally they take a lot of time off to study for them and maybe even spend money on courses. They need to because as someone coming from out of the country the application is looked at differently and the 2 scores are very meaningful. As US students, many do not even take step II before the match. So the foreign grad has to nail that score to match.

    In regards to match, matching to a program as an US MD or DO is not the major concern. The concern is more the quality of program. Ther are programs that do not take foreign grads, some that do not take DOs (but that is pretty rare, places like Harvard or Cleveland Clinic have DO faculty and residents now), there are hospitalss that do not take MDs. There are hospitals that have programs that are all foreign grads even into the fellowship...whether it is a good program,not for me to judge. Of course there are specialties that are easier to match: peds, fp, IM...but you have to look at the program.

    As far as DOs are concerned, I think the philosophy and training need to be considered before you apply. Do you want to learn manipulation? If that is of no interest, a being a DOC is what you want then goto school where you can.

    This is a sensitive topic and many will disagree with me, but no need to be defensive, just passing on what I have seen and learned along the way.
     
  34. Catherine

    Catherine Senior Member

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    I think Devil's Advocate is spot on. I have often wondered what the DO schools do with massive profits they generate - there can be no justification for fees around $25k with such low overheads and low faculty numbers. I don't see any difference between DO schools and off shore schools - except DO schools are in the system, which has to be a plus.

    As for what dbiddy808 has to say. I am quite familiar with off shore schools thank you. You simply strengthen my case. Yes, you did well - but you would have passed in a US school as well. You simply decided not to retake MCAT / do masters or whatever. So, the system works fine for you. But there are plenty of people who drop out of off shore schools - people that should not have been admitted in the first place. But these schools are always happy to take their money. Some times people need protecting from themselves - dreams and ambitions are healthy aspects of a driven personality, but hurdles such as the MCAT serve a useful function in identifying those at risk of future failure. For off shore schools to accept students with poor or no MCAT scores is simply for their own ends - it doesn't do the student any favors.
     
  35. Skip Intro

    Skip Intro Registered User

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    Catherine:

    With all due respect...

    I scored at 27 on my MCAT. Not stellar, but it's not a 19 or 20 either. And, I have friends who scored the same (and one who scored a 25) and were accepted into U.S. medical school programs. I personally did not want to play the AMCAS game again, nor did I want to waste my time or money with some suprefluous master's degree that I was never going to use. Your words appear to come from little life experience and a false over-confidence in things you do not quite yet have a full grasp upon. I'm in my mid-thirties and, after working years in a job in which I was over-qualified, underappreciated, and miserable at, I decided after much deliberation to pursue an education at Ross. I understood full-well the hurdles, hardship and obstacles. For me, D.O. was not an option, not because I think it's an inferior degree or anything of the like, but because I didn't want to have to explain to every new patient that I saw that I was indeed a "real" doctor.

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Catherine:
    <strong>Some times people need protecting from themselves...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Come on! Do you REALLY believe this, Catherine? I would seriously like to be there after the first few years you're practicing medicine so I can watch you bang your head against the wall as your patients lie to you, ignore you, don't do what you ask... If you honestly believe that your life mission (or anyone else's for that matter) is to protect people from themselves, then you are going to live to be a generally frustrated and very disappointed person.

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Catherine:
    <strong>...dreams and ambitions are healthy aspects of a driven personality, but hurdles such as the MCAT serve a useful function in identifying those at risk of future failure.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you seriously believe that the MCAT score is a good predictor and indicator of what kind of physician someone will be? PLEEAASSE!

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Catherine:
    <strong>For off shore schools to accept students with poor or no MCAT scores is simply for their own ends - it doesn't do the student any favors.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What (reputable) offshore programs do this? (Also, see above comment again.)

    Getting into medical school is a game, Catherine. Personally, I know at least one person back in school during my undergrad years who cheated his way through Organic Chemistry and is now a practising physicians. I happen to know several other instances of people who were admitted to U.S. medical schools because they were either personally famous/well-known, knew someone who could pull strings, had a parent who made a sizable donation to the university... I could go on. Do you honestly believe that all the people who got spots in U.S. medical school "deserved" those admissions?

    Seriously, Catherine (and again, with all due respect), you are going to have a rude awakening when you get out into the real world.
     
  36. Skip Intro

    Skip Intro Registered User

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    I think that this is the most controversial thing you said...

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Devil's Advocate:
    <strong>they outsource all the costs of running clinicals to other hospitals, mostly rural medical centers in BFE (just like offshore schools do).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is Kern Medical Center in Bakersfield California in BFE? What about Queens Hospital in NY? Or, Prince George's Medical Center in Maryland? St. Agnes' in Baltimore? These are all places that Ross does their clinicals. I suggest you do some homework at Ross' website before you lump them in with all other "offshore" schools.

    Also, when there, why don't you check out some of this year's residency placements?

    <a href="http://www.rossmed.edu/Medical_School/Residency2002.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.rossmed.edu/Medical_School/Residency2002.pdf</a>

    There's 304 students already listed for this year. Most are at universities and large teaching hospitals in the U.S. A large number are internal med and family practice, but there are also a couple Emergency Medicine and more than a few Surgery spots as well, including an orthopedic placement.

    What's my point? Don't lump Ross and SGU in with the other "offshore" programs. While we'll always be IMG's in U.S. eyes, these two programs are tantamount to the 127th and 128th U.S. medical schools. Hey, I can tough out 20 months in Dominica for anyone of those appointments listed above. And, so what if they're for profit? Give me one good reason why that should be an indictment against ANY medical program. And, while you're at it, tell me why almost 30% of ALL doctors practising in the U.S. are IMGs/FMGs. Then, tell me why the AMA is still attempting to sell the line that there's a doctor surplus in the U.S. I know a guy, fresh out of residency, who just got a $400,000 signing bonus to open a family practice in northern Oklahoma. Hmmm... what's wrong with this ENTIRE picture?

    Again, what's my point? D.O., M.D., US school, IMG... does it really matter where you go to school in the end?
     
  37. Skip Intro

    Skip Intro Registered User

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    One more thing...

    We had a guy (M3) who came back to talk to us about Ross' clinical program. He scored in the 220's on Step I and was at St. Agnes' in Baltimore. He did his psych rotation, side-by-side and elbow-to-elbow, with both University of Maryland AND Hopkins students.

    Just wanted to add that.
     
  38. dknykid1980

    dknykid1980 Senior Member

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    I'm with SKIP INTRO

    This september I'm planning on going to Ross ( i got accepted, but i havent paid the deposit yet).

    i want to go to Ross because I want to be a doctor....I dont want to get one of those master's degrees---my goal is being a physician, not a lab rat (not that there's anything wrong with that). Honestly, Devils advocate and catherine, the reason why i want to go to ROss is because I really dont want to take a year off. true, i'm only 21 right now, however, life is short! plus i want to help ppl, i dont care where i get my MD from. Plus ross and SGU are known for pruducing some of the finest docs. They are usually just as qualified as kids that get into US schools but were just not lucky enough. YES, i used the term LUCK...the whole process is totally luck, there's no rhyme or reason to it! Also, did you know that the highest score EVER achieved on the USMLE step 1 test was by a ROSS student? I'm sure the kid was smart, nevertheless, he must of gotten something from Ross teachers. Almost all of Ross' faculty are from IVY league schools and are at teh school to teach, not to do research and get published.

    listen to the above poster and visit their website.

    hope that helps
     
  39. Skip Intro

    Skip Intro Registered User

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    Well... let's not get carried away here. It wasn't the highest score ever, but it was a <a href="http://www.rossmed.edu/Medical_School/Medical_School_News_Updates/Ross_Reporter_Index/Fall_2000/RUSM_Student_Scores_266_on_USM/rusm_student_scores_266_on_usm.html" target="_blank">266</a> which is pretty damn near impossible to get considering the test only goes up to 270. Needless to say, his graded score was 99. He also transferred to Tulane at the start of M3.

    But, one of the physiology professors told our class this past semester that she just wrote a recommendation for another student who'd just scored a 255. Not everyone is going to score that high, granted. But, the program does prepare you. Most will probably score between 190 and 210. That's still passing...

    I know others have suggested the high "fail out" rate as being a deterrent to pursuing an education offshore. But, it just isn't the case. I'm going back in one week to start semester 3. I'm not a bad student, I put in the time studying, and second semester (which I just finished two weeks ago) was a nightmare. But, I've passed all of my classes so far and am, by Ross standards, achieved the grades that make me an above average student. And, I spent some time this break already beginning to review for Step I.

    Anyway... don't be deterred by the naysayers. But, do your homework, know what you are getting into, and be willing to take a risk. As one of our Histo professors told us in 1st semester, we're the "green berets of medicine." Certainly, what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. And, besides, it's not that bad. It's hard, yes, but it IS medical school still, you know?
     
  40. The Pill Counter

    The Pill Counter Senior Member

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    When Catherine said some people need protecting from themselves, I think she was speaking about the person who is 'all ambition and no talent'. MCAT's aren't the end-all and be-all of medicine, but are used because of their value in predicting success in med school. I don't want a thousand responses on the evils of MCAT, I just said they're ONE way to gauge a candidate.
     
  41. Skip Intro

    Skip Intro Registered User

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    rsk77:

    I guess we'll just have to somewhat agree to disagree. BTW, Ross (as well as UGA and SGU) now requires that incoming students take the MCAT. Ross is also doing a study of all incoming students in an attempt to see what factors correlate with success in medical school.

    Also, I'm sure many if not most of us would've done fine in U.S. medical school. But, unfortunately we weren't afforded the chance.

    Just recognize that admission to U.S. med school is all a game. I've known and worked with several foreign-trained MD's. There's no difference between them and the U.S. trained ones in my opinion.

    As far as "all ambition and no talent"... well, I'd argue that there are a lot of U.S. doctors (again, some of whom I know personal) who'd fit that category as well.
     
  42. Careofme

    Careofme Senior Member

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    I just got my formal acceptance to SGU. YEAH. :) Unfortunately, now I have the tough decision of picking which school to go to, DO or MD. I know I'm very luck to have any "choosing" -which I didnt expect at all!

    I know that SGU is great. No one need to convince me of that. Ive looked at the residency matches and compared to my DO schools they are leaps and bounds better.

    Here are my issues and I hope someone who is a current student at SGU can help me out:

    1) Right now Im interested in surgery. If I do well, score high on the USMLE and keep it all together, how much will being a FMG hold me back? Were there many students who wanted to match in surgery but got their last or near last choices?

    2) Is research that is not in a combined programs (such as MD/MSc or MD/MPH) available to those who want to seek it - perhaps at WINDREF?

    3) What are the teaching facilities like? I see many pictures of the dorms and cafes but what about the lecture halls and library? Do the lecture halls have internet hookup for laptops, etc.? Does the island even have internet?

    4) Can rotations be done at non-affiliated hospitals if you want to set them up? For example, if one knows of a doctor at a hospital who would teach them will SGU allow this? Does the U.K. requirement still stand?

    Sorry for all the questions but I'm anxious to make my decision so I can move on and enjoy the last of my "free time" :)

    Thanks,

    Careofme
     
  43. njdevil

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    You have to be cautious when it comes to surgery. There are two types of positions categorical and preliminary spots.

    My friends that are top-notch SGU students match to mid-level surgery categorical spots which means they are set to do a five year program.

    My friends that were mediocre at SGU, which by the way...you can work really hard at any medschool and be mediocre, got prelim spots. This means that they may move into a 2nd year position at there program but more than likely, they will have to apply for 1st year spot at there own program or another. So typical surgical residency for an American takes 5 years. FMG's sometimes are PGY-6s or 7's because of the pyramid system.
     
  44. Careofme

    Careofme Senior Member

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    njdevil,

    What about transitional? And how can someone have both a preliminary and categorical match?

    Careofme
     
  45. pimmar

    pimmar Member

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    Hi,
    I am just finishing my 3rd year at SGU, and can provide some insight, since this is a pretty long thread I will be general in my response. I personally know of a handful of students who transferred from my class at the beginning of 3rd year to places in Ohio, Syracuse, and GW. I also know people who scored in 240's and 250's who actually chose not to transfer. I think a lot of us feel very appreciative of our school and have come to have a certain pride about doing well despite the IMG stigma. I can also tell you that there are a lot of people from previous classes who have gone into categorical surgical spots, ortho spots, radiology, etc. You don't need to do research, only do it if you are really interested in doing it not to make yourself more marketable. In the end do what you like, and many of you will see that it will definitely change during your 3rd year. I was gun-ho surgery, and worked hard thinking I needed to be really competitive. However, after I did it, I decided it wasn't for me. So yes if you work, you will do well, and it will show. It won't be easy there are a lot of hurdles, extra tests, financial burdens, some closed minded institutions won't even look at you if you are an FMG, but you will be suprised by how many top programs will because of your diverse experience. I think that going to a caribbean school you will have an experience that not many people will have, and it will definitely make you a better rounded person, you will come to appreciate the opportunity you have been given and not take it for granted. I have seen much in my 3rd year that makes me so glad about my choice of going into medicine, and I can't wait to start my 4th year electives! I never applied to a US school, I had actually deferred dental school as a backup, took my MCATS didn't think my scores were competitive enough, applied to SGU, I knew of others who had gone through it. And I have done so far much better than my MCAT scores would have predicted. I say you go for a semester and give it a shot, if it doesn't work out, you tried. That what I did, I decided if I can make it past my first term there then I would be ok, and it would be money well spent. It is a lot of money, I will probably graduate with about 160K in debt, however I wouldn't trade my experience for anything else. Aside from being in the caribbean I experienced summer selective in Prague which was great, and I am looking foward to doing some electives in other parts of the US. We have clinical centers where we can do our cores for the entire 3rd year and then we can move around if we wish to. England is not an enforced requirement, although I hope to get a chance to go at the end of my 4th year to get some great physical diagnosis skills prior to intern year. Well good luck!
     
  46. Brerwolf

    Brerwolf Junior Member

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    Hey Twink I don't know about AUC but I think Ross makes you repeat all courses of a semester if you fail one. I am looking at St. Matt's
     

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