Advice to Medical students on clerkships from a resident

[CaliforniaAppli]

Now that I am on the other side I realize how awkward I was as a medical student,

Best advice I can give:

We can see through your facade. Stop trying so hard. The problem is some med students try way to hard and don't realize that they are hurting themselves more than helping.

If I can see myself working with you/ you are a nice person , have a decent knowledge base, work hard, I will likely give you a good grade.

If you annoy me and ask me annoying questions, I will give you a bad grade.

We have a lot on our minds as residents. We don't nitpick on every mistake you make unless it is memorable to us. When I fill out my evaluations, I often think " did this med student make my life better or worse during my shlt life as a resident" .

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[ChordaEpiphany]

.

 

[NontradCA]

Now that I am on the other side I realize how awkward I was as a medical student,

Best advice I can give:

We can see through your facade. Stop trying so hard. The problem is some med students try way to hard and don't realize that they are hurting themselves more than helping.

If I can see myself working with you/ you are a nice person , have a decent knowledge base, work hard, I will likely give you a good grade.

If you annoy me and ask me annoying questions, I will give you a bad grade.

We have a lot on our minds as residents. We don't nitpick on every mistake you make unless it is memorable to us. When I fill out my evaluations, I often think " did this med student make my life better or worse during my shlt life as a resident" .

Point to the spot the bad medical student touched you.

 

[Pathman1000]

Look at OP's history. Third time reapplicant with awful board scores and subpar evaluations. I think you should take a long look in the mirror before you judge people likely more qualified to practice medicine than you.

 

[jcorpsmanMD]

Look at OP's history. Third time reapplicant with awful board scores and subpar evaluations. I think you should take a long look in the mirror before you judge people likely more qualified to practice medicine than you.

What is with the negativity? Whether what he said is right or wrong is a whole different issue but you go look through this individuals post history just so you can berate them?

 

[McDreamy123]

What is with the negativity? Whether what he said is right or wrong is a whole different issue but you go look through this individuals post history just so you can berate them?

If he is truly in path residency than he is likely feeling sour about the dismal job market outlook in path right now...lol. Take a look at the path forum on this site....talk about depressing.

 

[sazerac]

Are pathology rotations a thing? I ran into a couple pathologists during my Heme/Onc rotation. They seemed nice enough, but I don't think I ever had a pathologist (resident or attending) grade me for anything.

Cool microscopes though.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Now that I am on the other side I realize how awkward I was as a medical student,

Best advice I can give:

We can see through your facade. Stop trying so hard. The problem is some med students try way to hard and don't realize that they are hurting themselves more than helping.

If I can see myself working with you/ you are a nice person , have a decent knowledge base, work hard, I will likely give you a good grade.

If you annoy me and ask me annoying questions, I will give you a bad grade.

We have a lot on our minds as residents. We don't nitpick on every mistake you make unless it is memorable to us. When I fill out my evaluations, I often think " did this med student make my life better or worse during my shlt life as a resident" .

I think you are too quick to forget how awful third year actually was. Cut them some slack, they are just trying to do a good job

 

[Doctor Strange]

Look at OP's history. Third time reapplicant with awful board scores and subpar evaluations. I think you should take a long look in the mirror before you judge people likely more qualified to practice medicine than you.

Woooooow.

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[neusu]

Now that I am on the other side I realize how awkward I was as a medical student,

Best advice I can give:

We can see through your facade. Stop trying so hard. The problem is some med students try way to hard and don't realize that they are hurting themselves more than helping.

If I can see myself working with you/ you are a nice person , have a decent knowledge base, work hard, I will likely give you a good grade.

If you annoy me and ask me annoying questions, I will give you a bad grade.

We have a lot on our minds as residents. We don't nitpick on every mistake you make unless it is memorable to us. When I fill out my evaluations, I often think " did this med student make my life better or worse during my shlt life as a resident" .

I'd argue the opposite, you have a fiduciary duty as a resident at a teaching hospital to teach the medical students.

Your attitude as the instructor sets the tone of the interaction. Given the tone of this post, it seems self-evident, this is the reason for the post itself.

 

[FindMeOnTheLinks]

Look at OP's history. Third time reapplicant with awful board scores and subpar evaluations. I think you should take a long look in the mirror before you judge people likely more qualified to practice medicine than you.

Lol. Savage. But pretty irrelevant. There is no gradient of "qualification" to practice medicine. Either you are qualified as deemed by meeting the requirements, or you are not qualified because you didn't meet the requirements.

 

[DrSnips]

Lol. Savage. But pretty irrelevant. There is no gradient of "qualification" to practice medicine. Either you are qualified as deemed by meeting the requirements, or you are not qualified because you didn't meet the requirements.

There might be a strict cutoff for being able to legally practice medicine, but as to having the skills to secure a job that anyone would actually want, well that's more of a gradient situation.

 

[Gorne]

I've never seen someone get so thoroughly destroyed before.

 

[FindMeOnTheLinks]

There might be a strict cutoff for being able to legally practice medicine, but as to having the skills to secure a job that anyone would actually want, well that's more of a gradient situation.

You're right. Maybe that's what the guy was trying to say. Either way, the idea that a resident shouldn't judge a med student because the med students are somehow "more qualified" to practice medicine than him is forking stupid.

 

[Affiche]

If you annoy me and ask me annoying questions, I will give you a bad grade.

It bothers me tremendously that anyone thinks this is okay.
Anyone who thinks this way is in no position to be teaching and grading.

 

[sloop]

I think that people with this attitude towards med students or who think med students shouldn't "ask stupid questions" shouldn't apply to residency programs at academic centers that have medical students. If you work at an academic medical center, teaching the medical students and answering their questions even if they are "stupid" is part of the job. If you can't handle it, don't work there. People who can't teach but go to an academic medical center because they think it will look better are screwing students out of the education they pay a lot of money for and as a result are incredibly selfish.

 

[Gurby]

If you annoy me and ask me annoying questions, I will give you a bad grade.

It bothers me tremendously that anyone thinks this is okay.
Anyone who thinks this way is in no position to be teaching and grading.

I read this as "don't ask me questions that you could have easily found the answer to in 30 seconds on Google", or "we see through you when you ask questions you already know the answer to in an effort to impress us". Seems reasonable to me, but maybe I'm interpreting too optimistically.

 

[Affiche]

I read this as "don't ask me questions that you could have easily found the answer to in 30 seconds on Google", or "we see through you when you ask questions you already know the answer to in an effort to impress us". Seems reasonable to me, but maybe I'm interpreting too optimistically.

Giving someone a poor grade in clinicals can really, really **** them over. Doing this to someone because you subjectively found the effort they put in to be "annoying" isn't reasonable or okay. OP sounds like he's overwhelmed with work and can't be bothered to teach med students, so he hands out grades based on who he likes/dislikes.

 

[bannie22]

Yeah, unfortunately evaluations are extraordinarily subjective like OP suggested.
Even worse, you have people that grade 4-5/5 and some that grade 0-5/5, and some that only gives 5s...

luck of the draw my friends.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

It bothers me tremendously that anyone thinks this is okay.
Anyone who thinks this way is in no position to be teaching and grading.

You guys, let's wake up to reality a bit. OP clearly has been burned by some malignant residents. We've all dealt with them.

I think we all get why they are saying what they're saying.

Now, what's the sense in propagating the hurt we all felt? Will we feel better by being mean and spiteful to next gen. Medical students?

I propose that we allow every medical student the benefit of the doubt and start them off a rotation with the idea that they have are at 100 percent, and that its theirs to keep. Better to be motivational than punitive in this situation.

Being a medical student can be very tough sometimes. Just because we are at a point where we can see the @Light at end of tunnel doesnt mean we should forget where we came from.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Lol why did you quote me and tag yourself?

Time to make these threads a bit happier and sunnier.

I feel like I wanna bang my head on the wall from all the negativity.

Plus, I mean it was almost perfect.

 

[Merely]

No offense, but OP seems like a complete tool

 

[Mr Roboto]

You guys, let's wake up to reality a bit. OP clearly has been burned by some malignant residents. We've all dealt with them.

I think we all get why they are saying what they're saying.

Now, what's the sense in propagating the hurt we all felt? Will we feel better by being mean and spiteful to next gen. Medical students?

I propose that we allow every medical student the benefit of the doubt and start them off a rotation with the idea that they have are at 100 percent, and that its theirs to keep. Better to be motivational than punitive in this situation.

Being a medical student can be very tough sometimes. Just because we are at a point where we can see the @Light at end of tunnel doesnt mean we should forget where we came from.

No, OP sounds like a malignant resident.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

OP sounds hurt and angry. Looking to exact revenge. Once a mere mortal as a medical student, now a god as a resident. Look out world.

We can inflame and reinforce negativity, or we can help balance things out. If not for OP, then for the sake of the medical students who will unknowingly enter his/her domain.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Look at OP's history. Third time reapplicant with awful board scores and subpar evaluations. I think you should take a long look in the mirror before you judge people likely more qualified to practice medicine than you.

damn... that was kinda dickish bro.

 

[takeurmeds02]

Was really not expecting this thread to take the turn that it did lmao

 

[CaliforniaAppli]

i didn't mean this thread to turn out the way it did . Not sure how i came off as angry or hurt and apologize for conveying that. And for the record I give most of my medical students honors and that is simply because they are decent human beings , I don't judge them based on how well they "perform" necessarily

I was giving honest advice . Grading is subjective in clinicals and that is how it should be . We are human beings not scantron readers. Life is not a test for you to get an A in . Your personality matters a lot mow .

By annoying questions , I meant all non medical questions like " what time are rounds again? " (when then attending told us yesterday )

I don't mind teaching at all.

Btw , I am secure in my past failures , dont mind people knowing I reapplied.. I am happy with where I am now.

 

[username456789]

i didn't mean this thread to turn out the way it did . Not sure how i came off as angry or hurt and apologize for conveying that. And for the record I give most of my medical students honors and that is simply because they are decent human beings , I don't judge them based on how well they "perform" necessarily

That's almost as bad. What the hell is the point of honors, then?

You are all over the place here.

 

[Affiche]

i didn't mean this thread to turn out the way it did . Not sure how i came off as angry or hurt and apologize for conveying that. And for the record I give most of my medical students honors and that is simply because they are decent human beings , I don't judge them based on how well they "perform" necessarily

I was giving honest advice . Grading is subjective in clinicals and that is how it should be . We are human beings not scantron readers. Life is not a test for you to get an A in . Your personality matters a lot mow .

By annoying questions , I meant all non medical questions like " what time are rounds again? " (when then attending told us yesterday )

I don't mind teaching at all.

Btw , I am secure in my past failures , dont mind people knowing I reapplied.. I am happy with where I am now.

I think the problem here is that you legitimately believe subjectivity > objectivity. Regardless of how your personality meshes with another's, you should be able to objectively assess the effort put it and the performance level of the student. Anything less is unprofessional.

 

[ProfMD]

My advice, as an attending:

Ask questions, but pick the right time to do so.

Look for ways to contribute to the team. This may mean "scut work" but that's ok.

Know your patients backwards and forwards. Read about each disease process they have. Get to know the patient by rounding on them.

Be on time.

Don't make excuses.

Be honest.

Be polite. Show respect to patients, other med students, residents, fellows, attendings.

 

[intubesteak]

As a med student I can confidently say that med students are annoying. It just goes with the territory. I think the better ones realize this and minimize their annoyingness, which is exactly what OP is talking about.

 

[CaliforniaAppli]

There is a whole lot of nitpicking here with a whole lot of misunderstanding and assumptions into what I am saying.

Was giving advice , not trying to debate about larger topics . You may not agree with how grading should be , but once you are on the otherside you will see that what distinguishes med students and what is important to making a good doctor. I intended no malice in this post

 

[azmang108]

I think we all need to shape up right meow. Here we are, sitting at the top of the totem pole as medical students staring down at helpless residents and attendings with no regard for the fact that we will be there one day. In our ivory towers, only meow and again taking a stroll down the trestles to grace the plebians (residents/attendings/CFO) with our awe inspiring presence. Behold, the glory of the short white coat.

 

[cellsaver]

What is with the negativity? Whether what he said is right or wrong is a whole different issue but you go look through this individuals post history just so you can berate them?

it is what we see in our nation today whether it be in politics, "news"media outlets academic university settings and clearly the internet.

our world has evolved technologically but regressed culturally (paraphrase Pope Francis)

 

[Tenk]

I've given this advice on other threads but I will give it here as well, keys to being a good medical student that will pretty much always work on any rotation:

-Show up 5 min before you are supposed to be there.

-Don't ask to go home (unless the resident is pretty chill and you have been on the rotation a while. Ill advised to ask this of an attending unless the attending is me in which case I will tell you I don't care, go home if you want.)

-Don't ask any question you can answer with a google or UpToDate search. Example of bad question: what is the dose of toradol? Example of a good question: why did you choose toradol instead of morphine? (This highlights a more complex practice method rather than a simple knowledge fact).

-Don't ask questions just to ask questions.

-Dress professionally.

-Don't whine.

-Smile a lot. Be professional. Be kind.

-If you are asked a question, give it a shot. If you are wrong, tell them you will look it up. Simple as that. Don't take this to heart. Most residents and attendings forget they ask five seconds after they do.

-Show that you are interested in whatever the rotation is about, even if you have to fake it.

That's a pretty good list I think to get through any rotation. I think people get so hung up on pimping and other metrics that they forget to sometimes just small chat with residents and attendings. I once talked to a trauma surgeon for almost an hour about WW2 once. (Was not on rounds though because I think everyone would have tried to kill us haha). I didn't do it for a grade. I did it because it was a fun conversation. Don't overthink just try to have fun and the grades will follow. Good luck!

 

[Kahreek]

tldr:
it is just impossible to please your perceptor. They will not give you a good grade because they have no empathy, see you as their inferior and dont know **** about didatics and evaluating.

 

[cellsaver]

I read this as "don't ask me questions that you could have easily found the answer to in 30 seconds on Google", or "we see through you when you ask questions you already know the answer to in an effort to impress us". Seems reasonable to me, but maybe I'm interpreting too optimistically.

i read it as you. what we are seeing is an honest attempt by the OP to give some friendly mature advice. it appears OP has matured a great deal since medical school and she/he is just offering some pointers.

look at the thanks she/he gets

 

[Lawpy]

I've given this advice on other threads but I will give it here as well, keys to being a good medical student that will pretty much always work on any rotation:

-Show up 5 min before you are supposed to be there.

-Don't ask to go home (unless the resident is pretty chill and you have been on the rotation a while. Ill advised to ask this of an attending unless the attending is me in which case I will tell you I don't care, go home if you want.)

-Don't ask any question you can answer with a google or UpToDate search. Example of bad question: what is the dose of toradol? Example of a good question: why did you choose toradol instead of morphine? (This highlights a more complex practice method rather than a simple knowledge fact).

-Don't ask questions just to ask questions.

-Dress professionally.

-Don't whine.

-Smile a lot. Be professional. Be kind.

-If you are asked a question, give it a shot. If you are wrong, tell them you will look it up. Simple as that. Don't take this to heart. Most residents and attendings forget they ask five seconds after they do.

-Show that you are interested in whatever the rotation is about, even if you have to fake it.

That's a pretty good list I think to get through any rotation. I think people get so hung up on pimping and other metrics that they forget to sometimes just small chat with residents and attendings. I once talked to a trauma surgeon for almost an hour about WW2 once. (Was not on rounds though because I think everyone would have tried to kill us haha). I didn't do it for a grade. I did it because it was a fun conversation. Don't overthink just try to have fun and the grades will follow. Good luck!

Nice! Thanks for this! This works well with @mimelim suggestions elsewhere

My advice, as an attending:

Ask questions, but pick the right time to do so.

Look for ways to contribute to the team. This may mean "scut work" but that's ok.

Know your patients backwards and forwards. Read about each disease process they have. Get to know the patient by rounding on them.

Be on time.

Don't make excuses.

Be honest.

Be polite. Show respect to patients, other med students, residents, fellows, attendings.

Also thanks for this. I'll update the directory to include both.

 

[cellsaver]

Behold, the glory of the short white coat.

May I borrow this from you? Please?! I promise to give you attribution.

 

[Redpancreas]

Now that I am on the other side I realize how awkward I was as a medical student,

Best advice I can give:

We can see through your facade. Stop trying so hard. The problem is some med students try way to hard and don't realize that they are hurting themselves more than helping.

If I can see myself working with you/ you are a nice person , have a decent knowledge base, work hard, I will likely give you a good grade.

If you annoy me and ask me annoying questions, I will give you a bad grade.

We have a lot on our minds as residents. We don't nitpick on every mistake you make unless it is memorable to us. When I fill out my evaluations, I often think " did this med student make my life better or worse during my shlt life as a resident" .

I think this is a terrible scheme. As students, we're not residents b******, we're students. It's not our job to make your life easier, it's our job to learn from you while not getting in your way, and only when it's not too much trouble, we'd love to do small favors here and there especially if it helps things go smoothly. Secondly, we're basically graded on whether or not "we perform at the level of an intern (5) vs. performing at the expected level of a medical student (3) so you better believe some of us are stressed, trying hard, and when rounds last forever and we're not being involved, you better expect us to ask you some questions to help us understand what's going on. In exchange, we'll strive to be the most competent we can be, study each day so we can contribute to our team without giving interns/residents more work, and try to make our notes usable by residents to cut down their workload. The beauty of this is it it's a win-win if done right. We learn how to be residents while you all put a little effort into teaching to serve as an introspection of your own knowledge base and possibly have less work if you teach us notes/etc. The traits highlighted above promote a favoritism culture where people grade others based on their past experiences and what personalities they liked or disliked in med school/etc.

 

[failedatlife]

awful board scores

This was by far the worst comment on this thread. As someone who only scored like 10 points better than the OP, you made me feel terrible about myself when I read this. I started to cry. Thank you.

 

[failedatlife]

My advise as a 3rd year medical student:

Study for the Shelf exams ALL the time. They are the ONLY thing that matters third year. Medicine and Surgery are a standardized exam.

When rounding, bring your phone and do UW questions.
Don't write notes, instead read BRS with your time.
During surgeries scrub out and read Pestana.
Leave early to go home and study.

Remember, what you do on these rotations does not matter, what matters is what percent you get right on that 110 question test at the end of it.

 

[ortnakas]

i read it as you. what we are seeing is an honest attempt by the OP to give some friendly mature advice. it appears OP has matured a great deal since medical school and she/he is just offering some pointers.

look at the thanks she/he gets

I took OP's advice the same way, so shout-out to @CaliforniaAppli, I appreciate what you were trying to do. The advice wasn't to sit down and shut up and to never ask questions. The advice was on how to not be awkward: to quit sucking up, quit asking questions just for the sake of asking questions, figure out when to try to be helpful and when to stay out of the way, and to try to be a normal likable human being.

My advise as a 3rd year medical student:

Study for the Shelf exams ALL the time. They are the ONLY thing that matters third year. Medicine and Surgery are a standardized exam.

When rounding, bring your phone and do UW questions.
Don't write notes, instead read BRS with your time.
During surgeries scrub out and read Pestana.
Leave early to go home and study.

Remember, what you do on these rotations does not matter, what matters is what percent you get right on that 110 question test at the end of it.

This is terrible advice. Nobody do this.
--You need to be learning to be a clinician, not just a multiple choice whiz. You're going to write a billion notes as a resident, best get feedback now.
--Surgeons don't appreciate it much if you scrub out mid-surgery.
--Don't be the kid on their phone all the time. You may know you're on UWorld or UpToDate but everyone around you is going to assume you're on Facebook.
--If you ignore the part about learning clinical medicine and are purely grade motivated-- like it or not, a good chunk of your grade is based on your evaluation (60% at my school). Your strategy is a good way to ace the shelf but fail (or not A/honor at least) your rotation because you're terrible to work with.

@failedatlife you passed boards with a below-average-but-respectable score. You need to quit obsessing over that score and move on with your life. Also nobody was making fun of you.

 

[mcloaf]

I'm going to go jump off a bridge now because people on the internet are making fun of my board scores.

This is either a wildly inappropriate joke or you need to seek help immediately.

My advise as a 3rd year medical student:

Study for the Shelf exams ALL the time. They are the ONLY thing that matters third year. Medicine and Surgery are a standardized exam.

When rounding, bring your phone and do UW questions.
Don't write notes, instead read BRS with your time.
During surgeries scrub out and read Pestana.
Leave early to go home and study.

Remember, what you do on these rotations does not matter, what matters is what percent you get right on that 110 question test at the end of it.

This is great advice if you want to get terrible clinical grades. Unless your final grades are based solely on shelf scores (I don't believe most schools do this) you're just sabotaging yourself.

 

[fetorius]

I think many med students are awkward on rotations because they have no real defined roles. There are rotations with either made up roles where you semi work, meaning it's already being done by someone else, or rotations where you are there just to be there. Personally, I loved "scut" work because it meant I had something useful to do for the team. As an MS4 on a rotation that isn't in your field/AI, no one expects you to do anything except hang out and learn - I found this much more useful than MS3, although my responsibilities were very similar.

My recommendations for MS3/MS4 would be: work hard for your patients, look out for your teammates, be nice to everyone, and try to learn when you can.

 

[Redpancreas]

I think many med students are awkward on rotations because they have no real defined roles. There are rotations with either made up roles where you semi work, meaning it's already being done by someone else, or rotations where you are there just to be there. Personally, I loved "scut" work because it meant I had something useful to do for the team. As an MS4 on a rotation that isn't in your field/AI, no one expects you to do anything except hang out and learn - I found this much more useful than MS3, although my responsibilities were very similar.

My recommendations for MS3/MS4 would be: work hard for your patients, look out for your teammates, be nice to everyone, and try to learn when you can.

Totally agree. There's a theoretically defined role by the medical school/admin expects, but the problem becomes when there's a disconnect between them and residents. This becomes very apparent when there's a bunch of categories the residents can never evaluate us on in evaluations like physical exam skills, note documentation, medical knowledge (some don't even ask questions. I've come across lots of FMG residents (sorry, but it's mainly them) who don't understand it's their job to teach medical students and give me the silent treatment as if it's some kind of power-move. I've also had to specifically tell one of them that if they think I did a good job, I need higher than a Pass eval, because they thought giving all three (out of 5's) for some reason was the appropriate thing to do because we were technically first year clinical students which is what it's labeled as in our evaluation form.

Sometimes, you're the scut-worker while other times you're a contributing member. Personally, I try avoid scut work by coming 5-10 minutes early the first day, meeting the resident/faking confidence, being aggressive in asking for a patient (it's not a gunner-move if you don't try to compete against other students, it's your job to learn and see patients), and writing a note on the patient without being asked to and then trying my best to do a comprehensive job (without being asked). I usually fail gloriously but usually residents see that I'm interested especially when you ask deeper questions like why was this patient placed on this instead of this and they try to help me. Then again, you could come across as incompetent if you do a poor job so try your best.

 

[YellowTurtle]

-Show that you are interested in whatever the rotation is about, even if you have to fake it.

lolololol at the almost-end of third year I'm so over this faking interest thing. My face muscles are tired of the fake smiling and nodding.

Also @failedatlife you are my idol

 

[Tenk]

lolololol at the almost-end of third year I'm so over this faking interest thing. My face muscles are tired of the fake smiling and nodding.

Also @failedatlife you are my idol

Hate to tell you this but for the rest of your career you will have to fake emotions, stories, interest, jokes, and all other sorts of things to your patients if you want to be a good doctor. I have told the same jokes hundreds of times and they are now like nails on chalkboard to me but always get a good patient response. At other times all I want is for the patient to stop talking about useless things but I just sit there smiling and nodding. In the end it's worth it for the job but not for my sanity I spose.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

If youve gotten into med school and far along into clinicals, youre more than equipped to play the part of the committed medical student on rotations.

Seem interested, work hard, dont complain and never try to outshine your superiors.

Only a fool would take anything offered here as more than the personal opinion it is.

If you believe everything literally here, Ive got a bridge in North Dakota Id like to sell you.

 

[Pisiform]

Every med student should get honors if they have to follow you around throughout the day like your bitch and stand behind you for 2 hrs as you type up notes and flirt with nurses. Teach something meaningful to Med students everyday, I loved a resident I had who gave me take home points at the end of the day and kept me involved with patient and progress and helped me think critically


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