Affirmative Action Case and Medical School

[theWhat]

it's readily apparent in most of these threads that the majority of people's perceptions come from the media, stereotypes and limited interactions with other cultures. what makes them qualified to render judgment on things like race and class issues is beyond me.

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[tn4596]

See above

Everyone on here has already agreed that there are large disparities in academic performances and successes between these two groups. It is rly not rocket science since their selection processes in the is inherently in opposite direction. There is no need to bring up "why" there is a disparity. If you want to craft a policy to somehow "repay" what was wrongdoings in the past, then Asians should not have to pay the toils. Take away educational opportunities from descendant of white slave owners and give it to descendants of slaves. This is not what these policy is trying to accomplish therefore bringing up these points, again and again, is redundant. Ultimately, it all come down to difference in ideals, anti AA want equal playing field or all and let the disparity disappear over a very period of time (where the Flynn effects would reach diminishing return for white and Asian and black/Latino will catch up to them); Proponent of AA want a fix that can quicken the time needed for said disparity of disappear, but this might results in some injustices to other groups.

 

[Freesia88]

Everyone on here has already agreed that there are large disparities in academic performances and successes between these two groups. It is rly not rocket science since their selection processes in the is inherently in opposite direction. There is no need to bring up "why" there is a disparity. If you want to craft a policy to somehow "repay" what was wrongdoings in the past, 1. then Asians should not have to pay the toils. Take away educational opportunities from descendant of white slave owners and give it to descendants of slaves. This is not what these policy is trying to accomplish therefore bringing up these points, again and again, is redundant. Ultimately, it all come down to difference in ideals, 2. anti AA want equal playing field or all and let the disparity disappear over a very period of time (where the Flynn effects would reach diminishing return for white and Asian and black/Latino will catch up to them); Proponent of AA want a fix that can quicken the time needed for said disparity of disappear, but this might results in some injustices to other groups.

1. Asian are not toiling to pay for anybody else's issues. AA is not to "repay" anything. Trust me if African Americans, Native Americans and Hispanics took it upon themselves to actually seek reparations, the US government will go even more broke than it already is.

2. And what do you suggest be done about the hundreds of of thousands of people who will have to go without health care and other services while blacks, latinos and others try to play catch up? How are the black latino's and other supposed to catch up when they are being edged out by "more qualified" people? And just what means are going to ensure that blacks latino's and others catch up without significant resources being invested into them and not necessarily into white and Asian communities? Would you not still call this "discrimination" ?

 

[tn4596]

1. Asian are not toiling to pay for anybody else's issues. AA is not to "repay" anything. Trust me if African Americans, Native Americans and Hispanics took it upon themselves to actually seek reparations, the US government will go even more broke than it already is.

2. And what do you suggest be done about the hundreds of of thousands of people who will have to go without health care and other services while blacks, latinos and others try to play catch up? How are the black latino's and other supposed to catch up when they are being edged out by "more qualified" people? And just what means are going to ensure that blacks latino's and others catch up without significant resources being invested into them and not necessarily into white and Asian communities? Would you not still call this "discrimination" ?

1. Have you look at the data for Asians admissions to any type of school ad compare it to other groups? Btw that doesn't rly matter and you just repeat my point exactly. Anyway...

2. The issues of racial disparity ones well beyond education and healthcare btw, did you know black unemployment rate has always been double that of whites since 1950s although the black labor force, through civil right programs, has become much more educated since then? Attempting to "equalize" education levels between groups does not necessary lead to equal footing economically, especially when there are many unwanted side effects (alrdy mentioned by me and others) caused by AA. Essentially, the central question that decided on this case is: how much is race taken into account when it comes to admission? I don't think the judges will reverse it completely, but they might reduce its importance gradually just like how they took away quotas in the past.

 

[Freesia88]

1. Have you look at the data for Asians admissions to any type of school ad compare it to other groups? Btw that doesn't rly matter and you just repeat my point exactly. Anyway...

2. The issues of racial disparity ones well beyond education and healthcare btw, did you know black unemployment rate has always been double that of whites since 1950s although the black labor force, through civil right programs, has become much more educated since then? Attempting to "equalize" education levels between groups does not necessary lead to equal footing economically, especially when there are many unwanted side effects (alrdy mentioned by me and others) caused by AA. Essentially, the central question that decided on this case is: how much is race taken into account when it comes to admission? I don't think the judges will reverse it completely, but they might reduce its importance gradually just like how they took away quotas in the past.

How exactly are Asians toiling for African Americans, Hispanics and Native Americans, if you do not mind my asking? I'd really love to hear your perspective on this.

Talk about making my point for me....Why, pray tell, are blacks still more unemployed than whites, even though they are suposedly as qualified?

The goal is not necessarily to equalize education. The goal is to make sure that all communities receive the kind of professional care they need and if opening up educational opportunities can help achieve this goal then so be it. In the case of medical school admissions, if Asians and White doctors who are by far the majority were meeting the needs of Hispanic, Afican American and Native American communities, there will be no need for policies designed to provide doctors for these communities. You don't want to do the job and probably would not be able to effectively do the job because of unfortunate antecedents which have been set, then bitch and whine when the chance is to do the job is is given to somebody else? Are you kidding me?

Just to put this out there...to all the people talking against medical school admissions practises geared towards increasing physician availability for those minority groups which are underrepresented, just how do you suggest the needs of these people be met? Seeing as so far you hold the majority and these people are still largely neglected... Or is that just none of your concern as long as you get to be doctors?

 

[tn4596]

1. How exactly are Asians toiling for African Americans, Hispanics and Native Americans, if you do not mind my asking? I'd really love to hear your perspective on this.

2. Talk about making my point for me....Why, pray tell, are blacks still more unemployed than whites, even though they are suposedly as qualified?

3. The goal is not necessarily to equalize education. The goal is to make sure that all communities receive the kind of professional care they need and if opening up educational opportunities can help achieve this goal then so be it. 4. In the case of medical school admissions, if Asians and White doctors who are by far the majority were meeting the needs of Hispanic, Afican American and Native American communities, there will be no need for policies designed to provide doctors for these communities. You don't want to do the job and probably would not be able to effectively do the job because of unfortunate antecedents which have been set, then bitch and whine when the chance is to do the job is is given to somebody else? Are you kidding me?

1. My perspective is the same as anyone whoever mentioned up this issue. Asians are held up by a higher standard because of AA taking races into account. So indirectly, Asians are paying the toils.
2. It was from an article I read recently, you can speculate if you like. But verbatim, the expert said that the causes underlying this situation is not well understood.
3. Everyone wants that goal. The difference is that a lot of people, like me, believe that governments cannot fix everything and that too much over-regulations and attempts trying to achieve equality results in more harms, more exploitative loopholes and more injustice than goods. The groups or individuals needs to do their parts to step up.
4. There is nothing I want to say regarding this point that hasn't already been said in this thread before.

 

[Freesia88]

1. My perspective is the same as anyone whoever mentioned up this issue. Asians are held up by a higher standard because of AA taking races into account. So indirectly, Asians are paying the toils.

Come on now...no evasions... The Asians American students arguing here want to get into medical school because they feel they have worked harder than everyone else/are smarter than everyone else and deserve to get the spots.

The thing is there is this part of being a doctor that involves meeting the needs of patients and so far certain groups of these patients are being ignored. The concerns of medical schools is not necessarily to satisfy the peronal ambitions of individuals or groups of individuals, but to meet a vital need in society and provide a critical service to mankind.

Seeing as Asians are not exactly falling over themselves to meet these needs, others are being brought in who are likelier to address these needs than they (Asians) are, if less prodigious academically. But then space is limited for training and since Asians are such hard workers and paragons of academic excellence, so much so that using academic stats alone to determine who gets selected for training would mean they (Asians)continue to get the opportunities and the needs of thos patients will still not be met, other factors including race (which is as critical a factor as any) have been included in the process to ensure that these others actually get the chance to do the job Asians are apparently not willing to do. And furthermore, the process has become even more selective for Asian students so that the system is not overwhlemed by doctors who are qualified but unwilling to meet this very dire need.

So how do you Asian propose that this deadlock be resovled to the satisfaction of all?

2. It was from an article I read recently, you can speculate if you like. But verbatim, the expert said that the causes underlying this situation is not well understood.

I'll just bet it isn't

3. Everyone wants that goal. The difference is that a lot of people, like me, believe that governments cannot fix everything and that too much over-regulations and attempts trying to achieve equality results in more harms, more exploitative loopholes and more injustice than goods. The groups or individuals needs to do their parts to step up.

Government cannot fix everything true. But it is governments role to act as arbiter and ensure that nobody over steps their bounds...to keep the peace so to speak. Take away the order provided by government especially in the realm of mitigating discriminatory policies and see if even Asians get any further.

4. There is nothing I want to say regarding this point that hasn't already been said in this thread before.

Again evasions....you're quick to criticize but apparently have not looked beyond your litle sphere of interest

Once again, I find your comprehension of the issue to be hampered by your frankly immature desire to have your interests protected at all costs.

 

[Hemorrage]

Once again, I find your comprehension of the issue to be hampered by your frankly immature desire to have your interests protected at all costs.

Right because each of us don't deserve that after 4 years of hard work in undergrad along with hundreds of hours of volunteering and research. Get a life. Your a URM and your protecting your right to get into medical school just like the rest of us are. The only difference is that you bring up ridiculous claims like slavery and black people being naturally less intelligent to win your argument.

 

[bigloley]

URM classification is made just to try and have physician demographics closer to American demographics. Apparently those higher up than us think that this makes better physicians (or rather physicians that are better trained to help different segments of the populations). It is not repayment for any sort of injustice that happened in the past.

What I don't understand is that people make such a big fuss about URM's but not about legacy or getting in through connections. According to sector9's analysis, 5% of medical school students are URM's with lower averages than ORM counterparts. I would go out on a limb and say that 5% of current medical school students got in through legacy or connections. Also, a lot of negative comments are usually associated with these threads towards URM's. Hate the system, not the person.

 

[Freesia88]

Right because each of us don't deserve that after 4 years of hard work in undergrad along with hundreds of hours of volunteering and research. Get a life. Your a URM and your protecting your right to get into medical school just like the rest of us are. The only difference is that you bring up ridiculous claims like slavery and black people being naturally less intelligent to win your argument.

FYI # 1 I could go to medical school any-****ing-where in the world and still be able to accomplish the things I want to with a medical degree.

FYI # 2 You do not deserve ****.

And if you can find the post where I said black people are naturally less intelligent, I will concede this argument to you right now.

 

[Hemorrage]

FYI # 1 I could go to medical school any-****ing-where in the world and still be able to accomplish the things I want to with a medical degree

FYI # 2 You do not deserve ****.

And if you can find the post where I said black people are naturally less intelligent, I will concede this argument to you right now.

I'm sure you could. Apparently, however, other URM students just simply cannot get a good GPA/MCAT (relative to Asian and white applicants). To expect a URM to have equivalent stats is simply a preposterous concept. So much so that we have to lower the bar even though studying for exams and taking the MCAT has so much to do with skin color, race and slavery. Oh the troubles of being a URM.

 

[Freesia88]

I'm sure you could. Apparently, however, other URM students just simply cannot get a good GPA/MCAT (relative to Asian and white applicants). To expect a URM to have equivalent stats is simply a preposterous concept. So much so that we have to lower the bar even though studying for exams and taking the MCAT has so much to do with skin color, race and slavery. Oh the troubles of being a URM.

Still waitng for that quote...

And while you are at it, try to find a couple of medical schools whose stated requirements for admission inculde even a GPA of 3.7 and an MCAT of 33.

My God.. I need out out here. I feel dumber just talking to you.

 

[Hemorrage]

Still waitng for that quote...

And while you are at it, try to find a couple of medical schools whose stated requirements for admission inculde even a GPA of 3.7 and an MCAT of 33.

My God.. I need out out here. I feel dumber just talking to you.

Your sarcasm is pathetic. The more you use it the more I feel like your admitting AA is a joke and simply want to end the discussion because you have nothing productive to say.

I never stated that any medical school has a GPA requirement of a 3.7 or an MCAT of 33. What I said instead was that its ridiculous how you think URMs have an "inability" or are not required to have the same stats as Asian or white applicants. Stop playing this game of cat and mouse and answer the damn question. Why the hell do URM students have a "right" in your book to score less? Slavery is an argument you can't use because it didn't affect you. You were not bound by shackles upon birth. Money is also not a good argument because there's plenty of poor white and Asian applicants too. Finally, don't bother bringing up how white or asian people have donor advantages. Very few people have enough money to donate a substantial amount to any school.

 

[PKAguy2202]

k

 

[PKAguy2202]

Obviously, you have missed my point entirely. You are bringing up the portion of African American/or any other races living in poverty which is generally no brainer when it come to leniency in admission to any educational institutions.
If you have read my posts, you would realized that I have agree that urm provide certain benefits to healthcare producing that the policy resulting in certain tradeoffs. And as I have said, a lowered standard should be something given out of necessity for the current situation, not something that a group should demand based off of something that happened in the past.
The slavery argument for AA and URM simply hold no candles and does not contribute anything to the debate other than making you look like a saint-like leftist looking down at African Americans as if they were children (or as other would call it: the bleeding heart syndrome). It is even more amusing and prove my point even further that AA and URM policy don't even specifically focus at the African American who are descendants of those who were once slaves. A big portion of beneficiaries are African immigrants, who don't even share the same culture as African Americans. So now, even if a white doctor can connect better culturally with a black patient than a African doctor, the patient would prefer the latter simply because they both share skin color. Sigh...

Very good point. Argument has been made numerous times but I would like to second what this person is saying. Socioeconomic status should be the only "box" you have to check. Obviously through essays, and your ps they are learning what makes you unique, different and therefore attractive. However, what AA in essence does is only carry on a tradition of racism here in the states. Allow me to explain.
1. Why is it fair that the white, asian, or one of the numerous hispanic heritagesthat gets no preferential treatment, kid who grew up in Harlem next door to the black kid, had two crackhead parents, and put himself through school, is NOT on a level playing field with that black kid.
how is that in any way fair.
2. When you give anyone more rights, advnatages, privelages etc based on race you are in essence being racist and promoting racism. Let's look at this thread for example. There are numerous, "racists" who are "mad' because they believe they are getting shafted by AA. Look at hemmorhage, I do not know this person, nor do I agree with their statement that "blacks are lazy" however that hatred, or racism is being sparked by these unfair programs are they not. Why is there racism of minorities towards whites? Because minorities were sick of hundreds of years of oppression and getting the shaft, that has then almost implanted racism in their hearts. James Earl Jones (actor/darth vader and field of dreams for those who don;t know) talked about how he was raised to be racist because of the racist policies present in the world. The process for eliminating racism and promoting equality is to get rid of any and all programs, jobs, ideas that use race as a basis of classification.
3. This is the one I will get a hard time for but there is a double standard present in today's world. It seems to be "ok" for African Americans to do and say some things because there life is just plain harder than others. I had a black friend of mine argue with me for 2 hours that although he is middle class, with two married parents, and a private school education, his life would always be harder than a white persons. You think this isn't true. Just look at our president. We let him admit he had smoked weed, did drugs, and have what should be viewed as a failure of a presidency slide because there is this feeling he had a tough time being black. Everyone says he is a man of the people, "middle-class", poor like us. Wait a second, this is a "millionaire" who attended ivy league school, and went to a church for 20 years where the pastor is very actively and aggressively anti-America and anti-white.
In conclusion from my rant, I have been very lucky and blessed to have two parents who help me, supportive friends and family, and a good education. Do I believe the kid who worked his way out of the slums, and worked through college should perhaps get the edge over me, yeah i can handle that. But should my neighbor with all the same advantages as me who happens to be black or native american get the bump...hell no.

 

[shinbeats]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/24/u...cks-but-which-ones.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

I am not really proposing anything different than what schools are doing. Obviously, they all find diversity to be an appealing aspect. I just find it incredibly cliche when people bring up slavery as a reason for URM. The only reason it has been relevant is because someone higher up had determined that diversity is needed in our field. In any other professions, will a business hire a black person with less credentials because of slavery? No, right?
Regarding AA, others had brought up that it might do more harm than good. Putting a group a people among higher achieving peers is really not a good way to go about. This can lead to lower gpa (sunk med school chance), dropouts and general discontent. Universities know they can put in more programs, effectively channeling public schools in low income area with large minorities, so the kids in those areas are better prepared for colleges. It is just more expensive. It is cheaper to take in races into account and then let the dice rolls. And frankly, that is not the job of big universities.

You took an article from 2004 which was looking at the data for Harvard University undergrad and tried to pass a judgment from the data of n =1 onto all URM applying to medical school almost a decade later. Please don't use this type of data utilization if you practice medicine because you're going to be killing patients. I'll help you out go to pubmed, search and try this again.

 

[tn4596]

Once again, I find your comprehension of the issue to be hampered by your frankly immature desire to have your interests protected at all costs.

I just wanna make a few points here
1. You really are generalizing about Asians too much. There are asian docs out there practicing in underserved area you know. I know a Vietnamese family doc about 2 miles from where I live, about half of his patients are underserved Hispanic. Just to repeat what others have said, there are only "some" evidences stating that urm med student are willing go to to the underserved. You can bring up that aamc survey if you want, but those are just surveys of med students. There is no guarantees that most urm doctor are l going to those areas, especially people that had came from the upper middle class. Also, I agree that there is a general discontent among Asians that they deserved the spots taken by others. Truth is that the underserved problems is more complicated to solve than just training more diverse physicians. Why would highly trained professionals want to live in dangerous area/out in the middle of nowhere and compromise the interest of themselves and their families?
2. Lol
3. If you notice, the keywords here are "too much government's interventions". You kept on exaggerating my arguments and using a straw-man tactic against me... Sigh
4. Tbh, I have no interests if AA/URM is reversed or continued. I have solid stats and this shouldn't affect my chances into med school.

 

[tn4596]

You took an article from 2004 which was looking at the data for Harvard University undergrad and tried to pass a judgment from the data of n =1 onto all URM applying to medical school almost a decade later. Please don't use this type of data utilization if you practice medicine because you're going to be killing patients. I'll help you out go to pubmed, search and try this again.

http://m.guardiannews.com/education...ws.highereducation?cat=education&type=article

Better? If you want more articles stating the same facts you can google it yourself. There are many.
Also, by using a bit of deduction skills, you would realized that there is no way to tell of a black person a descendant of slaves or recent African immigrants in any application processes.

 

[411309]

Honestly answer me this: if the average MCAT score for an AA matriculant is 22 (for DO) than why even bother making them take the MCAT? Why just have the select a list of schools to pick where they want to be iterviewed at? lol. I didn't have an amazing score ( 26), but there is a big difference between a 26 and a 22. A 22 is 28th percentile.

And seriously you can't use the school argument that minorities attend worse schools than caucasians. What you learn in school mainly depends on you and the effort you put forth. High school hardly even matters. Besides the quality of schools have gone drastically down in many areas of the country so you can easily say that white people get the same terrible schooling as minorities, in general. There may be an exception where a small amount go to private schools but I would say the number of white people enrolled in a POS public schools greatly outweighs the number enrolled in a nice private school.

Long lasting effects of slavery..So because someone you never met before in your life was a slave, that justifies you doing worse? I always thought looking at people and seeing their race before anything else was racism, doesn't URM status promote this? URM status tells URMs that it's ok to set the bar low, because it doesnt really matter. Why try if all you need is a 22 MCAT to get into DO school for example?

 

[411309]

I miss the days when people would fail and it would be their own fault instead of the evil white man.

 

[theWhat]

Very good point. Argument has been made numerous times but I would like to second what this person is saying. Socioeconomic status should be the only "box" you have to check. Obviously through essays, and your ps they are learning what makes you unique, different and therefore attractive. However, what AA in essence does is only carry on a tradition of racism here in the states. Allow me to explain.
1. Why is it fair that the white, asian, or one of the numerous hispanic heritagesthat gets no preferential treatment, kid who grew up in Harlem next door to the black kid, had two crackhead parents, and put himself through school, is NOT on a level playing field with that black kid.
how is that in any way fair.
2. When you give anyone more rights, advnatages, privelages etc based on race you are in essence being racist and promoting racism. Let's look at this thread for example. There are numerous, "racists" who are "mad' because they believe they are getting shafted by AA. Look at hemmorhage, I do not know this person, nor do I agree with their statement that "blacks are lazy" however that hatred, or racism is being sparked by these unfair programs are they not. Why is there racism of minorities towards whites? Because minorities were sick of hundreds of years of oppression and getting the shaft, that has then almost implanted racism in their hearts. James Earl Jones (actor/darth vader and field of dreams for those who don;t know) talked about how he was raised to be racist because of the racist policies present in the world. The process for eliminating racism and promoting equality is to get rid of any and all programs, jobs, ideas that use race as a basis of classification.
3. This is the one I will get a hard time for but there is a double standard present in today's world. It seems to be "ok" for African Americans to do and say some things because there life is just plain harder than others. I had a black friend of mine argue with me for 2 hours that although he is middle class, with two married parents, and a private school education, his life would always be harder than a white persons. You think this isn't true. Just look at our president. We let him admit he had smoked weed, did drugs, and have what should be viewed as a failure of a presidency slide because there is this feeling he had a tough time being black. Everyone says he is a man of the people, "middle-class", poor like us. Wait a second, this is a "millionaire" who attended ivy league school, and went to a church for 20 years where the pastor is very actively and aggressively anti-America and anti-white.
In conclusion from my rant, I have been very lucky and blessed to have two parents who help me, supportive friends and family, and a good education. Do I believe the kid who worked his way out of the slums, and worked through college should perhaps get the edge over me, yeah i can handle that. But should my neighbor with all the same advantages as me who happens to be black or native american get the bump...hell no.

First off, Obama did not come from a wealthy background, he earned it through hard work. Secondly, the playing field upon which racism occurs is NOT balanced. The the level of implicit racism that occurs daily towards blacks and Hispanics is quite high. There are tons of studies supporting this. SES is not the only litmus test for disadvantaged students. I suggest reading up on implicit racism before making these assertions. Helping a group based on their race is a recognition of the disadvantages that they face daily. Sure we can all find that anecdote where somebody worked the system. Well here's a news flash: white people own and run the system. Therefore those in power don't really have the liberty to define racism, as they are the ones perpetrating it whether they acknowledge it or not.

 

[Freesia88]

http://m.guardiannews.com/education...ws.highereducation?cat=education&type=article

Better? If you want more articles stating the same facts you can google it yourself. There are many.

Great article and solid points!!!

As an African student who stands to benefit from medical school admission policies as they are now, I will respond to this. True, these admission policies benefit us as much as, if not more than they do African American students.

But let us look at why.... A lot of, if not most African students come in prepared to take advantage of these opportunities. Before you jump up and say Aha!!! ask yourselves why this is the case?

It's simple...We have some thing that African Americans and Native Americans in particular nolonger have. Stabilizing factors such as a value system to refer to and a sense of self. We come from back grounds which even though oppresed for centuries...still left us with our identities and sense of place in the world intact. We still benefit from the values system of our communities which are not much unlike those of Asian Americans....family, respect for authority, hard work. Those of us who went to school came from families which encouraged us to go to school and make academic and professional achievement a priority.

African and Native American communities here in the US were stripped of these stabilizing factors in so many ways and when your priority is survival, self actualization is very very low on the list.

Once again repealing AA and making hard and fast rules which set academic performance as the major criteria will increase the gap even more for African and Native Americans as well as Hispanics and other minorities in the US. Closing the gap will require not only opportunity being kept available at the top so that those making the effort can use them, advance and serve as role models and sources of inspiration, but also preparing those at the bottom, those just starting out with school to meet the challenges that higher education will present.

To add to this, there are definitely failings within the African American community and there needs to be more mobilization to prepare the young and upcoming ones to be able to use the opportunities that are available to them. Same goes for Hispanic communities... Native American communities, I don't even know where to start when thinking about how to bring them up from the depths to which they have been pushed. It is quite sad actually, I think they have suffered and lost the most of all.

 

[theWhat]

I miss the days when people would fail and it would be their own fault instead of the evil white man.

Like when blacks were able to attend certain schools because it was their fault. Or when policemen beat up minorities. I miss those days too.

 

[411309]

First off, Obama did not come from a wealthy background, he earned it through hard work. Secondly, the playing field upon which racism occurs is NOT balanced. The the level of implicit racism that occurs daily towards blacks and Hispanics is quite high. There are tons of studies supporting this. SES is not the only litmus test for disadvantaged students. I suggest reading up on implicit racism before making these assertions. Helping a group based on their race is a recognition of the disadvantages that they face daily. Sure we can all find that anecdote where somebody worked the system. Well here's a news flash: white people own and run the system. Therefore those in power don't really have the liberty to define racism, as they are the ones perpetrating it whether they acknowledge it or not.

Yeah, Obama is an amazing president that's why unemployment is higher now than it was with Bush, Lol.

You're def right. Things out there are awful for black people. When a black person walks down the street people point and stare. Shopkeepers lock their doors. Women hide their children. People scream. Whenever white people wake up in the morning the first thought in their head is "how can I screw over a black person today?". You caught us. We also control the system and our sole purpose in life is to make URMs suffer by giving them tons of scholarships and easier acceptance to med school. See, we are evil in a subtle way. Why, just the other day I saw 40 white men beating a poor innocent URM in the middle of the road. Down with all white men.

 

[411309]

Like when blacks were able to attend certain schools because it was their fault. Or when policemen beat up minorities. I miss those days too.

because that happens all the time now right? oh wait..

 

[shinbeats]

Honestly answer me this: if the average MCAT score for an AA matriculant is 22 (for DO) than why even bother making them take the MCAT? Why just have the select a list of schools to pick where they want to be iterviewed at? lol. I didn't have an amazing score ( 26), but there is a big difference between a 26 and a 22. A 22 is 28th percentile.

And seriously you can't use the school argument that minorities attend worse schools than caucasians. What you learn in school mainly depends on you and the effort you put forth. High school hardly even matters. Besides the quality of schools have gone drastically down in many areas of the country so you can easily say that white people get the same terrible schooling as minorities, in general. There may be an exception where a small amount go to private schools but I would say the number of white people enrolled in a POS public schools greatly outweighs the number enrolled in a nice private school.

Long lasting effects of slavery..So because someone you never met before in your life was a slave, that justifies you doing worse? I always thought looking at people and seeing their race before anything else was racism, doesn't URM status promote this? URM status tells URMs that it's ok to set the bar low, because it doesnt really matter. Why try if all you need is a 22 MCAT to get into DO school for example?

There's not much of a difference there's a reason why you're both in DO lol

 

[411309]

There's not much of a difference there's a reason why you're both in DO lol

28th percentile vs 58th percentile. are you stupid all the time or was now just your moment of inspiration?

 

[PKAguy2202]

First off, Obama did not come from a wealthy background, he earned it through hard work. Secondly, the playing field upon which racism occurs is NOT balanced. The the level of implicit racism that occurs daily towards blacks and Hispanics is quite high. There are tons of studies supporting this. SES is not the only litmus test for disadvantaged students. I suggest reading up on implicit racism before making these assertions. Helping a group based on their race is a recognition of the disadvantages that they face daily. Sure we can all find that anecdote where somebody worked the system. Well here's a news flash: white people own and run the system. Therefore those in power don't really have the liberty to define racism, as they are the ones perpetrating it whether they acknowledge it or not.

Obama's education background
St. Francis of Assisi Catholic School (private)
Besuki Public School (public)
Punahou School, a private college preparatory school
Occidental College
Columbia University
Harvard Law
So where exactly was his disadvantaged educational upbringing, his mom had a PhD btw.
It is people like you do convinced racism exists that perpetuate the cycle. Actually take the time to READ my post bro. My point was exactly that racism does exist, because we create it with these biased programs. Implicit racism, good word, now point me to a "scientific study" that shows these results.

 

[Hemorrage]

Great article and solid points!!!

As an African student who stands to benefit from medical school admission policies as they are now, I will respond to this. True, these admission policies benefit us as much as, if not more than they do African American students.

But let us look at why.... A lot of, if not most African students come in prepared to take advantage of these opportunities. Before you jump up and say Aha!!! ask yourselves why this is the case?

It's simple...We have some thing that African Americans and Native Americans in particular nolonger have. Stabilizing factors such as a value system to refer to and a sense of self. We come from back grounds which even though oppresed for centuries...still left us with our identities and sense of place in the world intact. We still benefit from the values system of our communities which are not much unlike those of Asian Americans....family, respect for authority, hard work. Those of us who went to school came from families which encouraged us to go to school and make academic and professional achievement a priority.

African and Native American communities here in the US were stripped of these stabilizing factors in so many ways and when your priority is survival, self actualization is very very low on the list.

Once again repealing AA and making hard and fast rules which set academic performance as the major criteria will increase the gap even more for African and Native Americans as well as Hispanics and other minorities in the US. Closing the gap will require not only opportunity being kept available at the top so that those making the effort can use them, advance and serve as role models and sources of inspiration, but also preparing those at the bottom, those just starting out with school to meet the challenges that higher education will present.

Once again a knowledgable yet useless response. We all know how you feel inside. Your simply defending your right to benefit from AA admissions. Answer my question from above

 

[411309]

How many years will it take to "heal" from past mistakes? 1,000? Will people still blame slavery 1,000 years from now?

 

[theWhat]

because that happens all the time now right? oh wait..

The second one does happen all the time. Not sure where you live, but it does.

 

[Nuel]

Speaking of cause and effect:

1. African Americans are generally stronger and taller than Asians. They therefore have a natural advantage in sports and will be over represented. In addition, since they are good at sports their culture will likely appreciate and encourage sports more (people like to do what they're good at) which further increases this effect.

You are basing your arguments on the present without considering history and alternative explanations. It's possible that blacks might be the strongest race genetically, however the evidence for this isn't strong. Have you watched the strength games in the olympics? I don't see black people over-represented at those events. Secondly, in the early 1900s, basketball and boxing were dominated by whites and Jews respectively. In fact, the prevailing view was that Jews had a "genetic" talent for boxing--this statement sounds imbecilic today. I am not entirely sure on the socio-cultural forces that drove blacks into basketball and football, however, their success in these fields have served as positive feedback loop ensuring that more blacks continue to pursue them aggressively, over any other race and clearly over academics.

2. Talking about Asians is tougher, since even though I think Asians are the smartest race (I'm not Asian) people get extremely defensive and sensitive about one race being smarter than another. That's especially true because it's harder to tell who is naturally more intelligent than naturally more athletic (not hard to tell the 6'6 guy is going to outperform the 5'4 guy).

Again, Asians might be the "smartest" race, however all they've done is copy technology created by the West. Further, socio-economical push-pull perspectives show that Asians immigrate aggressively to the West, however the reverse is less true. I wouldn't expect this if Asians were the smartest and most advanced race. Can you see where these arguments start to break down as you begin to compare book-smarts to actual reality?

The fact is that we don't know the smartest race and the methods for testing are poor. All we can do is look at "phenotypes", and these phenotypes aren't even very good metrics or very meaningful with respect to the topic of intelligence. I don't think Einstein would've scored over 32 on the MCAT (he was a slow thinker), and Richard Feynman would (likely) barely score more than 10 on the MCAT verbal. A look at the trajectories of Nobel prize winners and some of the high-achieving members of our society indicate current metrics should be considered as the best worst methods of evaluation.

But I believe it's really the same deal. Asians are naturally better at academics than blacks, so Asians are going to be over represented. In addition, since they are good at academics their culture will encourage it more (people like to do what they're good at) which further increases this effect.

Asian culture emphasizes academics ruthlessly, significantly over any other ethnic group. I have a strong suspicion that if other ethnic groups emphasized and invested in education similarly, the academic achievement gap would narrow. Again, remember we are seeing a small motivated percentage out of billions of Asians in the world.

For lack of time I can't post much in this thread, but many arguments here are borne out of ignorance and personal gripes. Many schools only started to admit blacks in the 60s and 70s, and we have people still complaining about the token black guy in the MD class?? I think blacks will catch up eventually, just as white women continue to do.

 

[shinbeats]

How many years will it take to "heal" from past mistakes? 1,000? Will people still blame slavery 1,000 years from now?

They sure will blame it 50 years after the end of segregation of schools.

 

[theWhat]

How many years will it take to "heal" from past mistakes? 1,000? Will people still blame slavery 1,000 years from now?

Blatant racism was strong on the 1960s. That's one generation ago. That's like telling the Jews they should have healed from the holocaust by now, "bro."

 

[411309]

The second one does happen all the time. Not sure where you live, but it does.

Ridiculous. All the time? Hardly, it's not a common occurence at all for police to gang up and beat minorities to a pulp for no reason. That is an absurd statement. I even live in a poor area.

Also you want to talk about schools excluding people based on race..What about historically black schools? Irony know? Would it be racist if we had all white schools? lol.

 

[411309]

Blatant racism was strong on the 1960s. That's one generation ago. That's like telling the Jews they should have healed from the holocaust by now, "bro."

you weren't even alive in that era. I still havent figured out how people "heal" from something that didnt happen to them.

 

[theWhat]

Yeah, Obama is an amazing president that's why unemployment is higher now than it was with Bush, Lol.

You're def right. Things out there are awful for black people. When a black person walks down the street people point and stare. Shopkeepers lock their doors. Women hide their children. People scream. Whenever white people wake up in the morning the first thought in their head is "how can I screw over a black person today?". You caught us. We also control the system and our sole purpose in life is to make URMs suffer by giving them tons of scholarships and easier acceptance to med school. See, we are evil in a subtle way. Why, just the other day I saw 40 white men beating a poor innocent URM in the middle of the road. Down with all white men.

That's not what I said. I'm referring to institutional and implicit racism. But you don't seem open to learning about it so I won't push the issue because it obviously doesn't affect you.

 

[theWhat]

you weren't even alive in that era. I still havent figured out how people "heal" from something that didnt happen to them.

It happened to their parents. Families suffered from violence, poverty and being treated as a second class citizen. Do I really need to explain the generational effects of these things? If you understand anything about psychology, generational poverty and family dynamics you can maybe understand this. But it's hard when you come from a place of privilege as you only see what you want to see.

 

[PKAguy2202]

That's not what I said. I'm referring to institutional and implicit racism. But you don't seem open to learning about it so I won't push the issue because it obviously doesn't affect you.

Who exactly is implying this implicit racism? Do you know what the word implicit means you keep saying it and I think you may need to refer to miriam webster. Also still waiting on that study you promised me.

 

[flodhi1]

It happened to their parents. Families suffered from violence, poverty and being treated as a second class citizen. Do I really need to explain the generational effects of these things? If you understand anything about psychology, generational poverty and family dynamics you can maybe understand this. But it's hard when you come from a place of privilege as you only see what you want to see.

+1

you weren't even alive in that era. I still havent figured out how people "heal" from something that didnt happen to them.

Are you telling me as a child you weren't affected by the financial, psychological and social stability of your parents?
I don't even need to look up a research paper to quantitatively prove this because I think common sense suffices?

 

[theWhat]

Who exactly is implying this implicit racism? Do you know what the word implicit means you keep saying it and I think you may need to refer to miriam webster. Also still waiting on that study you promised me.

Do yourself a favor, go to google scholar, search implicit racism. Pick an article. Read.

 

[411309]

That's not what I said. I'm referring to institutional and implicit racism. But you don't seem open to learning about it so I won't push the issue because it obviously doesn't affect you.

I won't deny that racism exists but it exists for all races, not just one. And it's not nearly as bad as you seem to think. Sure there are some cases where racism takes things to extremes, but these cases arent as widespread as you seem to think. In 2010 there were around 6.5k hate crimes committed in the USA. Of that around 47% were racially motivated. That's about 3055. Lets assume (although obviously not true) that every state has the same amount of hate crimes, that's about 60 per state a year. And note that the hate crimes motivated by race applies to all races, including caucasian. Seems pretty light compared to other things.

 

[411309]

It happened to their parents. Families suffered from violence, poverty and being treated as a second class citizen. Do I really need to explain the generational effects of these things? If you understand anything about psychology, generational poverty and family dynamics you can maybe understand this. But it's hard when you come from a place of privilege as you only see what you want to see.

HAHAHAH. Please explain what kind of priveleges I had that you did not have.

 

[theWhat]

+1



Are you telling me as a child you weren't affected by the financial, psychological and social stability of your parents?
I don't even need to look up a research paper to quantitatively prove this because I think common sense suffices?

Thumbs up.

 

[411309]

I don't even need to look up a research paper to quantitatively prove this because I think common sense suffices?

since slavery ended in 1865, i think my paren'ts parent's parent's paren'ts parent's played little role in my developement.

 

[theWhat]

HAHAHAH. Please explain what kind of priveleges I had that you did not have.

I'm speaking as somebody who is white and has had their own privilege. And no, I don't come from a wealthy family, but i have had a stable upbringing and did not live around violence, drugs or discrimination. But I work with youth who don't have these privileges, and the majority have experienced one of those things in their lives. Tell me, is it their fault? Or perhaps they aren't working hard enough...

 

[theWhat]

since slavery ended in 1865, i think my paren'ts parent's parent's paren'ts parent's played little role in my developement.

Again, racism did not end with slavery. Why do you refuse to acknowledge the massive discrimination that was rampant up until the 1960?

 

[411309]

I'm speaking as somebody who is white and has had their own privilege. And no, I don't come from a wealthy family, but i have had a stable upbringing and did not live around violence, drugs or discrimination. But I work with youth who don't have these privileges, and the majority have experienced one of those things in their lives. Tell me, is it their fault? Or perhaps they aren't working hard enough...

I lived around drugs, violence, and discrimination. I worked full time in high and till my junior year in college. Where were my priveleges at again?

 

[Nuel]

I won't deny that racism exists but it exists for all races, not just one. And it's not nearly as bad as you seem to think. Sure there are some cases where racism takes things to extremes, but these cases arent as widespread as you seem to think. In 2010 there were around 6.5k hate crimes committed in the USA. Of that around 47% were racially motivated. That's about 3055. Lets assume (although obviously not true) that every state has the same amount of hate crimes, that's about 60 per state a year. And note that the hate crimes motivated by race applies to all races, including caucasian. Seems pretty light compared to other things.

You are assuming that race crime statistics are a good correlate of racist events, and you haven't provided evidence for this assumption. By all measures, "racism" today is more passive/systemic than active. Active racism is pretty rare.

 

[411309]

Again, racism did not end with slavery. Why do you refuse to acknowledge the massive discrimination that was rampant up until the 1960?

I realize that happened, but to compare slavery with discrimination like not being able to attend the same schools is a joke. Slavery is about 3,000 times worse than that. You can't compare the pyschological effects of slavery with the ones of not being able to attend the same school or drink from the same water fountain.