Ahh, The Choices...(Research)

[AUD]

So, I am currently a sophomore, and I've been on the prowl for some research opportunities. I found two and am having trouble deciding between them, so I thought I'd ask for some opinions. A few of my goals: get published, get lots of experience.

#1. Fungal Hyphae
Deals mostly with microscopy of how a certain fungus interacts with a rice plant. Not too medically relevant except that the fungus can kill you if you're immunosupressed. I'd be working with the lead professor, and would start out doing more than just washing dishes. Unfortunately, he's young and doesn't have many publications yet, but he told me there'd be a good chance I could get published.

#2. Gene repair for Hungtinton's, SMA
Much more medically relevant, but I was told upfront that I'd start by cleaning dishes. The lead professor is much more experienced, but I'd only interact with him an hour or so at the most. His research is also kind of controversial. The lab is much bigger, kind of full of hotshot scientists, so to speak. Chances of getting published seem a little lower, but only because the lab is bigger.

So what do you guys think? It pretty much comes down to whether medically relevant research is worth the risk of not getting published. But if I do get published under the second one, it would be in more prominent journals with much more peer review.

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[Blade28]

(1) How long would you be working at either of these projects?
(2) Are you getting paid?
(3) Is there any guarantee you'll move up from washing dishes?
(4) Do you have any other publications?
(5) Who are your PIs? What are their backgrounds?

 

[TheRealMD]

#1 is better that #2. Washing dishes is not lab experience and should not be counted as such. I assume that you'll also probably be getting a LOR from your research prof as well. Actually working with the prof instead of just being in his lab will mean a lot more to you when it comes time to apply.

 

[meowkat444]

absolutely #1. it doesn't matter much if you work with a "hotshot," but it matters very much the extent to which you are able to think, work independently, and show results of your work.

 

[mfrizzo3]

#1

 

[Dienekes]

Neither. I would rather have my balls squeezed in a vise than work on either of those projects. However, #1 seems like it would be more fun if one were into scut work.

 

[fahimaz7]

I'm finished my Master's in October and here's my 2 cents.

The more established of a lab that you can get in to is the better lab to do. New labs are always struggling, not only for a nitch to research, but to get protocols, funding, etc set up.

The 2nd option here sounds great. Almost every undergraduate volunteer starts out washing dishes and making simple solutions. However, after a month they are normally helping graduate students on projects and can get their name published on paper. A lab experience is one that you get what you put into it. The more interested you are, the more time that you dedicate, more opportunities arrise. In my old lab, we had several workers get published in good journals (JI, Infectious Disease, etc) and they were not graduate students.

Well established labs have more funding, papers, personel, protocols, etc and should be looked at favorably.

PS. My experience comes from a real, research-based masters program that took 2.5 years.

 

[AUD]

(1) How long would you be working at either of these projects?
(2) Are you getting paid?
(3) Is there any guarantee you'll move up from washing dishes?
(4) Do you have any other publications?
(5) Who are your PIs? What are their backgrounds?

1. Until I graduate, so 2 years (spring of '10)
2. Nope
3. Of course, or I wouldn't consider it
4. Nope
5. I'm assuming that PI means the lead professor? The first is a botanist, published once in Cell, and a few other times in smaller journals. The second is my professor for my genetics class, he's a geneticist, has published in Science, Cell, a few other prominent journals.


I'm sure that I'll be able to move up from washing dishes. But do medical schools care how influential and prominent the journals you publish in are? If so, I'll go for the second one, since that one sounds more interesting anyway. If not, then I'll go for the one where I'll get more face time with the lead doc.

Another thing to consider would be whether I get to first author a paper; I feel like that's more diffucult in a larger lab. Is that true?

 

[Blade28]

Hmm, well I'm not getting paid in either, so that's not a deciding factor. And I'm sure that I'll be able to move up from washing dishes. But do medical schools care how influential and prominent the journals you publish in are?

Not that much.

I mean, if you're first author of a paper published in Science or Nature, then yeah, that's impressive. But for the most part, a peer-reviewed journal is a peer-reviewed journal. Remember that research/publications are just icing on the cake - you need to have a strong GPA and MCAT as the foundation of your app.

I agree with the above poster who said that you'll get as much as you put into this research project.

Whatever you decide, best of luck.

 

[fahimaz7]

Another thing to consider would be whether I get to first author a paper; I feel like that's more diffucult in a larger lab. Is that true?

You won't get a first author of a paper. What you might do is write the prelim draft of the materials and methods. There's no way that you'll learn enough, in a lab, while volunteering to be knowledgeable enough to be a first author. Being the primary writer for a paper is unbelievably time intensive. My paper will end up being published on 3 pages and had 97 references.

Also, there's no way that you're PI would let you either. He wants first author and is prob. the first author for every single thing that the lab publishes.

If you're spending 2 years in a lab the best thing I could suggest is that you get in there, help the graduate students, and try to actually do some research. If you do this you'll get your name somewhere in there, which is all that matters.

Even as a Master's student my paper, which has been acccepted, I was not the first author. I wrote the entire thing and I will be the 2nd author being my PI. This is how it is for every single graduate student (DVM, MS, or PHD) in the lab.

Post-docs get first author though.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Sounds like your PI sucks. Many PI's are happy with being last author.

You won't get a first author of a paper. What you might do is write the prelim draft of the materials and methods. But, there's no way that you'll learn enough, in a lab, while volunteering to be knowledgeable enough to be a first author.

Also, there's no way that you're PI would let you either. He wants first author and is prob. the first author for every single thing that the lab publishes.

If you're spending 2 years in a lab the best thing I could suggest is that you get in there, help the graduate students, and try to actually do some research. If you do this you'll get your name somewhere in there, which is all that matters.

Even as a Master's student my paper, which has been acccepted, I was not the first author. I wrote the entire thing and I will be the 2nd author being my PI. This is how it is for every single graduate student (DVM, MS, or PHD) in the lab.

Post-docs get first author though.

 

[mnemosphere]

I'm sure that I'll be able to move up from washing dishes. But do medical schools care how influential and prominent the journals you publish in are? If so, I'll go for the second one, since that one sounds more interesting anyway. If not, then I'll go for the one where I'll get more face time with the lead doc.

Another thing to consider would be whether I get to first author a paper; I feel like that's more difficult in a larger lab. Is that true?

I can't believe that med schools are insensible to the impact factor of the journal you publish in, but any publication is better than nothing. They do hire their faculty in part of the quality of papers in their CV.

As far as first authoring a paper as an undergraduate is concerned, I'd say that is unlikely no matter where you went especially if you're still taking a full load of classes. A LOT of time goes into a paper (usually the better the paper, the more time/people it took). However, in the larger lab it might be easier to get your name on a paper simply because of the higher volume and greater collaborative opportunities. You won't be as high in the author line, but the projects also sound like they would be more interesting.

Besides, even if you don't get as much face time with the PI, you will with one of his/her grad students or post-docs, and they can certainly report on your progress.

The PI may just want to have you start washing dishes to make sure that you'll come in day after day and actually be willing to work. Think of it as a trial period. There is likely a lot of expensive equipment in the lab and no one wants someone lazy, sloppy, or without a strong work ethic touching their $100K+ microscope or spilling their $700/ounce chemicals. (Amazing as it may sound, I'm not even exaggerating those figures. Crap, some flasks (as in Erlenmeyer) cost $300+ each- something to think about while washing those dishes!)

 

[Dienekes]

Another thing to consider would be whether I get to first author a paper; I feel like that's more diffucult in a larger lab. Is that true?

It's not easy if you're someone who is basically the peon. If you get to a point where you have usable skills (or get to have your own little side project, etc), then you might get first author but it won't be of a paper that will likely amount to much.

 

[shantster]

You won't get a first author of a paper. What you might do is write the prelim draft of the materials and methods. There's no way that you'll learn enough, in a lab, while volunteering to be knowledgeable enough to be a first author. Being the primary writer for a paper is unbelievably time intensive. My paper will end up being published on 3 pages and had 97 references.

Also, there's no way that you're PI would let you either. He wants first author and is prob. the first author for every single thing that the lab publishes.

If you're spending 2 years in a lab the best thing I could suggest is that you get in there, help the graduate students, and try to actually do some research. If you do this you'll get your name somewhere in there, which is all that matters.

Even as a Master's student my paper, which has been acccepted, I was not the first author. I wrote the entire thing and I will be the 2nd author being my PI. This is how it is for every single graduate student (DVM, MS, or PHD) in the lab.

Post-docs get first author though.

You probably didn't have a good PI if you didn't get a first author on that paper. A good one is one that allows you to get the credit for the research that you do. Since he/she is getting the funding and doing that stuff, he/she really should be the last one unless he/she did most of the work on the paper.

That aside, to the OP, the experience you get in a lab is going to be much better if you're in a smaller lab getting lots of time with the PI, especially if this is your first research experience. Having been in labs with similar environments to the one that you describe, I'd go with the first one. It doesn't matter to med schools if you have a name on any paper if you aren't able to speak intelligently about your project and have a more meaningful experience than washing dishes for however long and then being a grad students' lab slave. You want more time with the PI since that's who's writing your letter of recommendation and you'll be gaining more skills that way. It also makes the lab experience more fun for you if you get input on designing the projects. In my experience, if you are helping out a grad student on their projects, you are more likely to be doing exactly what they want without having any input on the design and troubleshooting and real research stuff like that than if you were working directly with the PI.

 

[fahimaz7]

Sounds like your PI sucks. Many PI's are happy with being last author.

Nope, he's was actually great to work for. Not only did I really enjoy my time in his lab, but he puts out tons of good papers and graduate students. His lab is very diverse (infectious disease and cancer immuno) and well funded to boot!

But this isn't just my PI. This is how it is for the school that I graduated from.

Why would a non, ten-year professor pay for your research, design some of your projects, and pay for your education only to have his gate-keeping mechanism to ten-year get taken away?

PI's have to be first authors to get ten-year. It's just how it goes. It also really, really helps support their grant searches in the horrible environment that exists right now.

I'm not trying to be an *** or turn anyone off on research. Just laying it out there as I saw it while being integrally involved in a lab for the last 3 years.

 

[Dienekes]

I can't believe that med schools are insensible to the impact factor of the journal you publish in, but any publication is better than nothing. They do hire their faculty in part of the quality of papers in their CV.

As far as first authoring a paper as an undergraduate is concerned, I'd say that is unlikely no matter where you went especially if you're still taking a full load of classes. A LOT of time goes into a paper (usually the better the paper, the more time/people it took). However, in the larger lab it might be easier to get your name on a paper simply because of the higher volume and greater collaborative opportunities. You won't be as high in the author line, but the projects also sound like they would be more interesting.

Besides, even if you don't get as much face time with the PI, you will with one of his/her grad students or post-docs, and they can certainly report on your progress.

The PI may just want to have you start washing dishes to make sure that you'll come in day after day and actually be willing to work. Think of it as a trial period. There is likely a lot of expensive equipment in the lab and no one wants someone lazy, sloppy, or without a strong work ethic touching their $100K+ microscope or spilling their $700/ounce chemicals. (Amazing as it may sound, I'm not even exaggerating those figures. Crap, some flasks (as in Erlenmeyer) cost $300+ each- something to think about while washing those dishes!)

They are "insensible" because they realize they are dealing with undergraduates who most likely can not get published in anything with a decent impact factor. Hell, most undergrads can barely write.

 

[mnemosphere]

Sounds like your PI sucks. Many PI's are happy with being last author.

Actually, the norm for a PI is to be the last author, and not because it's the worst position. The best position is, of course, first author, then LAST (this is slightly arguable), and then 2nd and so on. Check out the citations - PIs are almost always last. That's usually how most people in research know how to find out which lab the lead author is from (i.e. who their boss was)- by looking at the last name in the author line.

It's actually considered an honor to be the last author. A postdoc that gets the last author position means that they were the person that thought up the idea, got funding, and implemented it. That means you had a lot of autonomy and are more likely to do well if you have your own lab- a major plus when that postdoc is applying for a job. Try asking around- postdocs many times would prefer to be last author over first (IF they get the opportunity). PIs who let their students have the last author position (I've never heard of anyone other than a postdoc do this FYI) usually speak about it as though they were being gracious.

Hope that didn't sound ranty, as it's not meant to be. (And in case you're curious, the reason I know this is because I've worked in a research lab for the past 3.5 years as an undergrad.)

 

[Drogba]

They are "insensible" because they realize they are dealing with undergraduates who most likely can not get published in anything with a decent impact factor. Hell, most undergrads can barely write.

Since when does that have any bearing on publishing a basic science paper?

 

[fahimaz7]

Actually, the norm for a PI is to be the last author, and not because it's the worst position. T

Apparently I'm ******ed from this medical school stress week. The last author is the PI..

Doh!

 

[mnemosphere]

But this isn't just my PI. This is how it is for the school that I graduated from.

Why would a non, ten-year professor pay for your research, design some of your projects, and pay for your education only to have his gate-keeping mechanism to ten-year get taken away?

PI's have to be first authors to get ten-year. It's just how it goes. It also really, really helps support their grant searches in the horrible environment that exists right now.

I don't know how your school does things, but this is pretty rare. I've looked at a lot of faculty pages at a bunch of different schools, and PIs are almost always last.

And it's tenure, not ten-year. An Assistant Professor doesn't have tenure, a an Associate Professor does but is still 'young', and a full Professor has tenure plus has been there for a really long time. If you get tenure it's usually within the first decade i.e. ~6 years.

 

[fahimaz7]

I don't know how your school does things, but this is pretty rare. I've looked at a lot of faculty pages at a bunch of different schools, and PIs are almost always last.

And it's tenure, not ten-year. An Assistant Professor doesn't have tenure, a an Associate Professor does but is still 'young', and a full Professor has tenure plus has been there for a really long time. If you get tenure it's usually within the first decade i.e. ~6 years.

See my post above. And yes, thanks for the spelling lesson and the history lesson on the time-line for tenure appointment ship. What's funny is that science people can spell the most exotic proteins but they can't spell simple words.

 

[Dienekes]

Since when does that have any bearing on publishing a basic science paper?

Well, as someone who helps correct the basic grammar and syntax of articles (one of my friends is an editor for a journal and she uses me as a de facto editorial assistant sort of), it really does help if you are not a clueless ****** when it comes to how to write.

 

[kedrin]

#2 sounds much much more interesting. I have started out doing research by watching people, then moved up to being told to read research papers, then moved up to measuring a couple hundred test tube diameters with a caliper, and soon i will be hired on to do my own project which gives me a chance to get published and make some cash at the same time.

overall you will probably start out in a crap place in most labs then move up and it sounds like you have time for it.

 

[mfrizzo3]

See my post above. And yes, thanks for the spelling lesson and the history lesson on the time-line for tenure appointment ship. What's funny is that science people can spell the most exotic proteins but they can't spell simple words.

Spelling tenure as ten-year is not a misspelling on your part, it is much more than that. Being raised by baboons comes to mind.

Albumin -- reeks of difficulty

 

[Drogba]

Ten-year.

That is a rather imaginative phonetic spelling.

 

[Blade28]

Also remember that it takes a while to complete the research work in the lab, write the paper, submit it, edit it, and finally get it accepted and published. Can take 1-4 years in most cases, unfortunately.

 

[AUD]

Sounds like its pretty even, which means either I can't go wrong, or I'll pick the wrong the choice no matter what.

Since I would like the professor to eventually write a LOR, I think I'm leaning towards the smaller lab. Also, even though everyone and their mom publishes (or at least on this forum ) I can't imagine medical schools seeing my work as inferior to someone else's who publishes in a more prominent journal. I mean, we're only undergrads, we don't really decide what publishing opportunities we get, they sort of fall into our laps. That, and the PI gives it to us. Right?

 

[Dienekes]

Sounds like its pretty even, which means either I can't go wrong, or I'll pick the wrong the choice no matter what.

Since I would like the professor to eventually write a LOR, I think I'm leaning towards the smaller lab. Also, even though everyone and their mom publishes (or at least on this forum ) I can't imagine medical schools seeing my work as inferior to someone else's who publishes in a more prominent journal. I mean, we're only undergrads, we don't really decide what publishing opportunities we get, they sort of fall into our laps. That, and the PI gives it to us. Right?

One thing to keep in mind is that this forum tends to self-select for the upper crust of premed crop. We also tend to eat our young here. In fact, it seems to be damn near a competitive sport.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Nope, he's was actually great to work for. Not only did I really enjoy my time in his lab, but he puts out tons of good papers and graduate students. His lab is very diverse (infectious disease and cancer immuno) and well funded to boot!

But this isn't just my PI. This is how it is for the school that I graduated from.

Why would a non, ten-year professor pay for your research, design some of your projects, and pay for your education only to have his gate-keeping mechanism to ten-year get taken away?

PI's have to be first authors to get ten-year. It's just how it goes. It also really, really helps support their grant searches in the horrible environment that exists right now.

I'm not trying to be an *** or turn anyone off on research. Just laying it out there as I saw it while being integrally involved in a lab for the last 3 years.

Where I come from senior (last) authorships count for tenure considerations.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Sounds like its pretty even, which means either I can't go wrong, or I'll pick the wrong the choice no matter what.

Since I would like the professor to eventually write a LOR, I think I'm leaning towards the smaller lab. Also, even though everyone and their mom publishes (or at least on this forum ) I can't imagine medical schools seeing my work as inferior to someone else's who publishes in a more prominent journal. I mean, we're only undergrads, we don't really decide what publishing opportunities we get, they sort of fall into our laps. That, and the PI gives it to us. Right?

Go with smaller lab, definitely a better deal in my experience.

 

[Techmed07]

I just got a research position. May be starting my sophmore year. I was accepted as a Howard Huges Research Scholar (if you all have heard of it). My research is 10 hours a week. Is it possible to do well with research hours. I am taking 15 hours, and is it worth it.


Biology (suppose to be very time intensive)/Lab
Chem II/Lab
Honors Political Science
Honors Ethics (speech req)
Weightlifting

 

[Dienekes]

I just got a research position. May be starting my sophmore year. I was accepted as a Howard Huges Research Scholar (if you all have heard of it). My research is 10 hours a week. Is it possible to do well with research hours. I am taking 15 hours, and is it worth it.


Biology (suppose to be very time intensive)/Lab
Chem II/Lab
Honors Political Science
Honors Ethics (speech req)
Weightlifting

I work full time (40+ hrs a week in research) so I guess you could say, it's definitely doable. Especially if you're only working 10-15hrs.

 

[HumidBeing]

One thing to keep in mind is that this forum tends to self-select for the upper crust of premed crop. We also tend to eat our young here. In fact, it seems to be damn near a competitive sport.

Ahhhh I think I'll go take a break & enjoy thinking of myself as being the upper crust of the premed crop for a few minutes before reality sets back in.

OP, I also agree wholeheartedly with Shantster. Undergrads tend to put far too much emphasis on wanting to be published. It really is one of the least important things about the experience. Your opportunities to learn procedures, practice 'thinking like a scientist', and developing a relationship with the PI so that he is willing to write you a knockout LOR are more important. Frequently you can wind up getting much more autonomy more quickly in a smaller lab because the PI is more familiar with your ability levels and there is less competition. As an undergrad, your needs and wishes fall at the bottom of the totem in a large lab. Sometimes it can take a long time to get past the "washing dishes" phase in those.

 

[AUD]

OP, I also agree wholeheartedly with Shantster. Undergrads tend to put far too much emphasis on wanting to be published. It really is one of the least important things about the experience. Your opportunities to learn procedures, practice 'thinking like a scientist', and developing a relationship with the PI so that he is willing to write you a knockout LOR are more important. Frequently you can wind up getting much more autonomy more quickly in a smaller lab because the PI is more familiar with your ability levels and there is less competition. As an undergrad, your needs and wishes fall at the bottom of the totem in a large lab. Sometimes it can take a long time to get past the "washing dishes" phase in those.

Exactly what I was thinking. Thanks to everyone for their input, though I'm always welcome to more, of course.

 

[Drogba]

I just got a research position. May be starting my sophmore year. I was accepted as a Howard Huges Research Scholar (if you all have heard of it). My research is 10 hours a week. Is it possible to do well with research hours. I am taking 15 hours, and is it worth it.


Biology (suppose to be very time intensive)/Lab
Chem II/Lab
Honors Political Science
Honors Ethics (speech req)
Weightlifting

I'm amazed that they offer these classes for credits. You are taking 12 hours plus working out is what you meant to say surely. Anyway its definitely doable you just have to be effecient and avoid falling behind at all costs especially if your research hours are not flexible.

 

[Dienekes]

I think I'll go take a break & enjoy thinking of myself as being the upper crust of the premed crop for a few minutes before reality sets back in.

I didn't mean it like that. I was simply implying that people who are less than stellar applicants tend to not stick around here very long.

 

[Blade28]

My research is 10 hours a week. Is it possible to do well with research hours. I am taking 15 hours, and is it worth it.


Biology (suppose to be very time intensive)/Lab
Chem II/Lab
Honors Political Science
Honors Ethics (speech req)
Weightlifting

10 hours a week? No sweat.

I worked 40 hours a week all 4 years of undergrad.

Sometimes it can take a long time to get past the "washing dishes" phase in those.

And again, just to inject a dose of reality here, it can take well over 1-2 years to publish papers. Hell, it sometimes takes 1+ years just to get a working, validated experiment up and running.

So don't let the fabled "publication" be the be-all and end-all. There are lots of other valuable things to get out of research - many of which are mentioned in the above posts.

 

[Techmed07]

I'm amazed that they offer these classes for credits. You are taking 12 hours plus working out is what you meant to say surely. Anyway its definitely doable you just have to be effecient and avoid falling behind at all costs especially if your research hours are not flexible.

yeah, 14 hours plus working out. lol


I am hoping to perhaps curb the SDN addiction by the summertime.

 

[Jolie South]

OP, I also agree wholeheartedly with Shantster. Undergrads tend to put far too much emphasis on wanting to be published. It really is one of the least important things about the experience. Your opportunities to learn procedures, practice 'thinking like a scientist', and developing a relationship with the PI so that he is willing to write you a knockout LOR are more important. Frequently you can wind up getting much more autonomy more quickly in a smaller lab because the PI is more familiar with your ability levels and there is less competition. As an undergrad, your needs and wishes fall at the bottom of the totem in a large lab. Sometimes it can take a long time to get past the "washing dishes" phase in those.

I agree. I worked in a small lab and didn't get any publications, but I really appreciated the environment and what I learned. My PI was able to spend time talking with me about my project and helping me when problems arose. I wouldn't trade that experience for being a dishwasher on a big project just so I could get my name on a paper.


Just my $.02.