Air force vs. Army vs. Navy

[DRek]

What are the advantages of the different millitary services? I am most interested in the Army and the Air Force, but for others sake, I am including the Navy as well. Does anybody have any experience or informtation about practicing in these branches of the military.

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[NAVYHPSPREC]

Well as for getting shipboard duty, there is a line..this year there were only 33 slots open and they filled up fast. Remember single, young, physician who does not mind seeing part of the world.

Are you asking for the difference as in the Health Professions Scholarship Program (Medical School Scholarship) or service as a physician?

 

[DRek]

As I understand it the scholarship for all three programs are the same. I am more wondering what residencies and military life are like in each of the three branches, and what the advantages and disadvantages are for each of the three branches. For those who need to make such decisions it is nice to know as much information as possible.

 

[Saluki]

My dad was in the airforce, and I had several good friend who were military brats, so I can kind of answer this one, although I'll admit that I know much more about the airfoce than the other two. The airforce tends to be the most cushy and also tends to get higer quality people. The army has a lot more jobs that anyone can do(As my mom calls those positions, "running around the jungle with a gun) However, that's not always true, for instance one of my closest friends' dad was a PT in the army. As far as benefits go, even the army people admit that the airforce is the best. However, the navy tends to have its bases in bigger cities and ports, so you are less likely to end up in someplace like Nebraska or Missouri in the navy. The army tends to advance officers more quickly, so you could end up with a higher rank faster in the army, but personally, I would go with the airforce or the navy. Also, if you're into the big excitement the airforce offers the flight physician thing, which looks exciting....

 

[MEChris72]

Dont take any of them if you do not want to be deployed away from home at some point in your career.

Don't take navy if you don't want to do time (1-3 yrs) as a GMO on a ship between MS4 and PGY1. And don't believe a thing the recruiter tells you! Their job is sales, and many of them are high pressure sales people. They are necessary for processing your paper work, but don't let them talk you into the job. They are good at what they do, but they know little to nothing about the job you will do. (and frankly, they needn't)

My advice is to contact docs in all the branches, and docs that used to be in the service. Ask them every question you can think of, and then some. Listen for the bad stuff too. This is your responsibility. As far as military medicine is concerned, it's all the same thing, just different uniforms. Many residents from the different brances actually train together at SAUSHEC in San Antonio.

Good Luck

 

[NAVYHPSPREC]

MEChris72,

have you spent any time in the Navy?

A HPSP student spending three years of shipboard duty between MS4 and PGy-1 is a false statement.

To clerify for the December 2001 Military Match (don;t have a breakdown for 2002 match yet)

Out of 329 (277 HPSP and 52 USUHS) students

196 received PGY-1 aka Military Internships (GME-1 for Military (Graduate Medical Education) (71%).

39 received a one year transitional civilian deferment (14%)

42 received Full Civilian Deferments to a civilian residency (15%)

No one does shipboard time before received PGY-1 (GME-1)

 

[ayj]

I've heard that USUHS students who are Navy should generally expect to do a GMO tour after finishing med school and before residency. Also for USUHS, I've heard Army and Air Force are phasing out GMO tours.

Do Navy HPSP students generally do GMO tours or are they oftentimes required to do GMO tours? Are there any situations where any HPSP students are forced into doing a GMO tour? Thanks.

ayj

 

[desertscholar]

Okay, I am sorry this is a really stupid question, but I have been researching the HPsp and what the heck is a GMO tour. All I have been able to gather is that it possilbe does not fulfill your required service time.
Thanks guys.

 

[edmadison]

Originally posted by desertscholar
Okay, I am sorry this is a really stupid question, but I have been researching the HPsp and what the heck is a GMO tour. All I have been able to gather is that it possilbe does not fulfill your required service time.
Thanks guys.

Originally posted by desertscholar
Okay, I am sorry this is a really stupid question, but I have been researching the HPsp and what the heck is a GMO tour. All I have been able to gather is that it possilbe does not fulfill your required service time.
Thanks guys.

I dont think it is a stupid question. It's actually very important. The GMO tour is a vestigate of the old way physicians were trained. Back in the first half of this century, many physicians only did one year of post medicine training. They did their internship and the off to a sunny career as a general practitioner. Over time, as specialties increased, these GP's would then apply to a second match for specialty. In the 1950's when my old man trained, everyone (I think) did a general internship which was like a repeat of 3rd year med school -- rotations and all. They then went on, frequently to another hospital, to persue specialty training.

In light of this system, the military adopted the practice of taking docs after their internship to serve as GMOs. Back them, this made sense because the standard of care was lower -- many Docs only had one year of post-med training and had thriving practices -- no one had even heard of family practice then. Unfortunately, the military (and most notably the Navy) have continued this practice, placing physicians with only an internship under their belt to be PCP (a really bad idea in my book).

The GMO tour will take a year or more, upon completion you can either get out, if you have fulfilled your obligation, or apply to the PGY-2 (specialty) match. If you do a residency in the military, you incur a new obligation, this new obligation could in effect negate the time you spent as a GMO. An example will clarify:

Assume I am on a two year scholarship. Accordingly, I owe the military 2 years. I do my internship (which does not payoff or incur obligation) and then go do a two year GMO. At the end of the GMO, my active duty obligation is fulfilled and I can either apply for the civilian match or the military. If I match in the military in ob/gyn, I do another 3 years as a resident and incur another 3 year obligation. Thus at the end of serving that extra three year obligation, I will have paid back a total of 5 years of non intern-resident time. If would have gone "straight through" with no GMO, at the end of residency I would owe 2 years for my scholarship and 3 for my residency BUT those can be served concurrently, thus I only have to serve 3 years. In effect, in this example, the GMO tour didn't count for payback.

The important thing to remember is that the AF and Army have greatly reduced their dependance on GMOs. The Navy has not despite being ordered by Congress to do so. Thus, you have a much greater chance of an increased obligation in the Navy.

I hope that helps,

Ed

 

[desertscholar]

Thank you for the reply. It did help clear up some confusion.
desertscholar

 

[svt boost]

Originally posted by MEChris72
Dont take any of them if you do not want to be deployed away from home at some point in your career.

Don't take navy if you don't want to do time (1-3 yrs) as a GMO on a ship between MS4 and PGY1. And don't believe a thing the recruiter tells you! Their job is sales, and many of them are high pressure sales people. They are necessary for processing your paper work, but don't let them talk you into the job. They are good at what they do, but they know little to nothing about the job you will do. (and frankly, they needn't)

My advice is to contact docs in all the branches, and docs that used to be in the service. Ask them every question you can think of, and then some. Listen for the bad stuff too. This is your responsibility. As far as military medicine is concerned, it's all the same thing, just different uniforms. Many residents from the different brances actually train together at SAUSHEC in San Antonio.

Good Luck

Well, that doesn't make any sense. How could you practice medicine unlicensed between med school and your PGY1 year?

...In the Navy, most people do a 3 year GMO tour following intern year. It is rare for people to go straight through, and currently even rarer for people to go to a civilian residency. Although I was "promised" that I could do a civilian residency, I would be hard pressed to test this promise when I apply this summer.

Also, pertaining to NAVYHPSPREC comments, for my class of 2004 there are approximately 250 students competing for 235ish in-service spots. That means only 15 deferments. The Navy fills its spots first.

Although I am biased, I would go Navy. The GMO tour is gonna be awesome, and I plan on doing something operational if I can (and if the wife agrees!)--either dive officer or flight surgeon. Then following that I am gonna train at a great hospital in San Diego, and then hopefully a fellowship at either USC or UCLA in trauma and critical care (or maybe cardiothoracic).

desertscholar, if you are only now applying you probably cannot see the value of an GMO tour. If you are like me, really young, I view it as the best way to get awesome experience for residency, and to have three years to make a ton of money "playing."

 

[desertscholar]

Sorry to disappoint, I am not really young. In fact if I choose to go military, I will just squeek in under the armies guidlelines. From what I can tell I'll be just barely too old for the Navies guidelines.
But I did have my children while young. So by the time I finish med school, they'll in or close to finishing college, depending on what they decide to do.
This is one of the reasons, I am considering the military because, I'll be at a point in my life where there is flexibility. My husbands wiling to follow, because he's maxed out in his career as far as growth. I'll work, he'll play golf with the other docs . Better that than with the wives. O ageuch, I'm guilty of stereotyping. I better work on that.
Anyways, back to the point. We are at the point in our lives were we are ready for adventure.
But age has brought caution to my life, and before I sign a dotted line I like to be well informed so that I can make wise decisions. So, I appreciate everyones input.

 

[NAVYHPSPREC]

Originally posted by edmadison

Assume I am on a two year scholarship. Accordingly, I owe the military 2 years. I do my internship (which does not payoff or incur obligation) and then go do a two year GMO. At the end of the GMO, my active duty obligation is fulfilled and I can either apply for the civilian match or the military. If I match in the military in ob/gyn, I do another 3 years as a resident and incur another 3 year obligation. Thus at the end of serving that extra three year obligation, I will have paid back a total of 5 years of non intern-resident time. If would have gone "straight through" with no GMO, at the end of residency I would owe 2 years for my scholarship and 3 for my residency BUT those can be served concurrently, thus I only have to serve 3 years. In effect, in this example, the GMO tour didn't count for payback.

The important thing to remember is that the AF and Army have greatly reduced their dependance on GMOs. The Navy has not despite being ordered by Congress to do so. Thus, you have a much greater chance of an increased obligation in the Navy.

I hope that helps,

Ed

you had a two year scholarship, your internship would count toward your obligation, it is a provition in the program. GMO tours are normally two years. If you do not match in a military specialty the first tiem around you do have the opportunity to apply yearly.

GMO stands for General Medical Officer. The idea behind that is to develop skills and experience as a primary care physician. Think about it, Medical School is not training you to be a NeuroSurgeon. GMO tours make one more competitive for a residency.

The Army and AF have GMO's they just do not label them as such. Someone has to treat you average run of the mill disorders....this is a little tactic the Army and AF folks use to cloud their applicants. I hate to admit it but most "recruiters" do not fully inform their applicants in what they are getting into.

 

[latte01]

Hello,
I just wanted to add my 2 cents about the military pay. I'll admit that at first, I was very (very) skeptical about wanting to do a military residency. But now, I'm quite pleased with it. I won't go into the details of why I think my residency training is pretty strong, but I will give you an idea of how much money you're saving doing a military residency.

I'm sure that many of you, like me, didn't think much about the finance of being a future physician. I'm sure some of you out there think: I'll be making tons of money as a physician and will easily be able to pay off my loans and also have a nice house and be able to provide my children with a private education. If any of you think this naively, then you haven't done the math.

The best thing about being a military doc is that you not only save, but also make pretty good money. (oooh, some of you may be cringing at the word "money" as a bad thing... )

According to my calculations, these are the huge perks:
1)The best thing is that your debt free!! This is so important because imagine having to pay $500/month for 20 years on a $150K loan. You could be using that money to invest in your retirement. Plus, it's going to hurt your credit report preventing you from getting good mortgage loans for buying a house.
2)Another thing that's great is that being in the military with "active duty" status qualifies you to enroll in this bank called "USAA". And without at doubt, this is an awesome bank! The service is superb, you get great advice on how to invest your money (e.g., building your retirement, paying for your children's future college tuitions, getting loans for a home or car, etc...). I can't say enough about this bank. Before, I had Bank of America and was getting ripped off by them on so many service charges.
3)As a resident, you get paid $50,000 which is by far better than any other place. It makes having a family very doable.
4)If you elect to do a one year GMO, you get an upfront bonus of $15,000 plus your salary for that year goes up to $70,000. Total is $85,000 for one year. Think about what you can do with that money (i.e., reinvest it into your retirement account so that it'll help you retire several years earlier than originally planned.).
5)You can take advantage of the military's Commissary and Supermarket Stores which are super cheap and you don't have to pay any taxes.
6)HPSP scholars qualify for the Montgomery GI bill when they become active duty in the military. This means that if you give the goverment $100/month for 12 months (i.e., total $1200), you'll qualify to receive $900/month for 3 years (i.e., total $36,000) in additional fellowship training. For me, I'm planning on doing a non-military (civilian) residency and using the GI bill to give me more income. So when you do the math, that comes out $67,000 for 3 years of fellowship at a civillian program ($55K average of most civillian fellowship programs + $12K GI supplement income).
7)No Malpractice insurance fees. Being in the military, you never have to pay for malpractice. But in the civillian world, malpractice can cost you up to $200,000/year in some specialties. And believe me, there's no way you'd be able to reasonably pay that amount.
8)Health insurance is all covered for you and your family.
9)Life insurance plans are very cheap. I pay $15/month for a $250,000 life insurance.

I can go on and on about all the financial benefits. But I'll stop for now.

My take on being a doctor is this: Yes, we went into this profession to help people and not become a millionaire. But at the same time, we didn't go into this profession to end up being a slave to debt. Nowadays, it doesn't make any sense to be a physician. Medical school is ridiculously overpriced and the huge debts that people get themselves into hurts them financially in the long-run. You need to do the math yourself.

For me, these are the things that I want in my life:
1)Be well-trainined as a physician, have several more publications before finishing residency, making myself marketable by the time I leave the military for a civillian job.
2)Start early in my investments (i.e., Roth IRA and 529K Education fund) so that they're growing at the right pace to allow me to pay for most of my children's college tuitions so that they're not burdened with debt and allow me and my wife to retire by age 65 with a comfortable income.

Being in the military clearly allows me and my family to meet those two objectives stated above and I couldn't be happier.

Last of all, people might be wondering that there's probably a catch to all these great incentives. Well, when you graduate from residency, your salary probably will be a bit lower than someone graduating from civillian program. For example, a starting salary in Pediatrics is about $90,000 to 110,000 in the civillian world. But in the military, it's about $75,000 to 80,000. Some of you may be thinking that the extra money you get from a civillian program is huge. But again, not so. Being in the military, you get FREE health insurance for you and your family and you don't have to pay any Malpractice insurance which is probably $10,000 to 15,000/year for pediatricians. So again, you MAKE more in the military.

 

[latte01]

Hello,
I just wanted to add my 2 cents about the military pay. I'll admit that at first, I was very (very) skeptical about wanting to do a military residency. But now, I'm quite pleased with it. I won't go into the details of why I think my residency training is pretty strong, but I will give you an idea of how much money you're saving doing a military residency.

I'm sure that many of you, like me, didn't think much about the finance of being a future physician. I'm sure some of you out there think: I'll be making tons of money as a physician and will easily be able to pay off my loans and also have a nice house and be able to provide my children with a private education. If any of you think this naively, then you haven't done the math.

The best thing about being a military doc is that you not only save, but also make pretty good money. (oooh, some of you may be cringing at the word "money" as a bad thing... )

According to my calculations, these are the huge perks:
1)The best thing is that your debt free!! This is so important because imagine having to pay $500/month for 20 years on a $150K loan. You could be using that money to invest in your retirement. Plus, it's going to hurt your credit report preventing you from getting good mortgage loans for buying a house.
2)Another thing that's great is that being in the military with "active duty" status qualifies you to enroll in this bank called "USAA". And without at doubt, this is an awesome bank! The service is superb, you get great advice on how to invest your money (e.g., building your retirement, paying for your children's future college tuitions, getting loans for a home or car, etc...). I can't say enough about this bank. Before, I had Bank of America and was getting ripped off by them on so many service charges.
3)As a resident, you get paid $50,000 which is by far better than any other place. It makes having a family very doable.
4)If you elect to do a one year GMO, you get an upfront bonus of $15,000 plus your salary for that year goes up to $70,000. Total is $85,000 for one year. Think about what you can do with that money (i.e., reinvest it into your retirement account so that it'll help you retire several years earlier than originally planned.).
5)You can take advantage of the military's Commissary and Supermarket Stores which are super cheap and you don't have to pay any taxes.
6)HPSP scholars qualify for the Montgomery GI bill when they become active duty in the military. This means that if you give the goverment $100/month for 12 months (i.e., total $1200), you'll qualify to receive $900/month for 3 years (i.e., total $36,000) in additional fellowship training. For me, I'm planning on doing a non-military (civilian) residency and using the GI bill to give me more income. So when you do the math, that comes out $67,000 for 3 years of fellowship at a civillian program ($55K average of most civillian fellowship programs + $12K GI supplement income).
7)No Malpractice insurance fees. Being in the military, you never have to pay for malpractice. But in the civillian world, malpractice can cost you up to $200,000/year in some specialties. And believe me, there's no way you'd be able to reasonably pay that amount.
8)Health insurance is all covered for you and your family.
9)Life insurance plans are very cheap. I pay $15/month for a $250,000 life insurance.

I can go on and on about all the financial benefits. But I'll stop for now.

My take on being a doctor is this: Yes, we went into this profession to help people and not become a millionaire. But at the same time, we didn't go into this profession to end up being a slave to debt. Nowadays, it doesn't make any sense to be a physician. Medical school is ridiculously overpriced and the huge debts that people get themselves into hurts them financially in the long-run. You need to do the math yourself.

For me, these are the things that I want in my life:
1)Be well-trainined as a physician, have several more publications before finishing residency, making myself marketable by the time I leave the military for a civillian job.
2)Start early in my investments (i.e., Roth IRA and 529K Education fund) so that they're growing at the right pace to allow me to pay for most of my children's college tuitions so that they're not burdened with debt and allow me and my wife to retire by age 65 with a comfortable income.

Being in the military clearly allows me and my family to meet those two objectives stated above and I couldn't be happier.

Last of all, people might be wondering that there's probably a catch to all these great incentives. Well, when you graduate from residency, your salary probably will be a bit lower than someone graduating from civillian program. For example, a starting salary in Pediatrics is about $90,000 to 110,000 in the civillian world. But in the military, it's about $75,000 to 80,000. Some of you may be thinking that the extra money you get from a civillian program is huge. But again, not so. Being in the military, you get FREE health insurance for you and your family and you don't have to pay any Malpractice insurance which is probably $10,000 to 15,000/year for pediatricians. So again, you MAKE more in the military.