All about The $$$$$$

[spinestudent]

maybe, but most grad students don't face INTENSE pressure and competition to get into their programs of choice. those that do (top business and law programs) are pretty much guaranteed strong earning potential. furthermore, no grad student needs to go through the difficulties of a residency, which even w/ the new laws work out to up to 14hrs/day, 6 days a week, for about 45k/year for as long as 7 years. i don't get some people. is it success guilt or something? look, i did something very difficult by getting into med school. if i survive it, i'll have done something that 95% of the population probably couldn't do. after that, i'll work harder than 95% of the population. when i go to work i'll either be saving or tangibly improving peoples lives. Guess what, if i end up cashing some hefty checks, i'm not gonna feel one single little drop of guilt about it. i'll be thankful to God for putting me in such a position, but i'll also know that i had some inherent talent, and the drive to work my ass off.

The previous poster was talking about grad students. Law students go to professional school. The point is that people who attain phd's in physics, math, chemistry, etc do work as long as residents(and longer in many cases) completing their phd and doing a post-doc or two. They make even less than residents in most cases. And my guess is that 95% of the population probably can't get a phd in physics(not that that's a strong argument anyway). Yet after they complete their last post-doc and take a position in academia or industry, they do not expect to be compensated in the 150-250k range like physicians.

Physicians don't have a monopoly on working hard, improving people's lives, or intense pressure to succeed.

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[Pinkertinkle]

And how much do PhD programs cost? Something like negative 20K to 30K a year right?

 

[Cerberus]

i am not entering medicine for money, however i dont think it would be worth all the trouble and debt for a salary much under 100k (mainly the debt)

 

[WatchingWaiting]

And how much do PhD programs cost? Something like negative 20K to 30K a year right?

Let's limit our discussion to science and engineering PhDs, since humanities and econ PhDs have quite different rules and possibilities afterwards.

It's generally free tuition plus a stipend of $25K or so a year, which is quite different from paying out $30K or so per year for tuition, plus having to fork over $15K or so (large variance depending on where) for food and housing.

Also, you can go straight into a corporate job after your PhD and generally make $70K or so per year starting salary (varies a lot depending on where you graduated from and whether talking biology or chemistry or engineering). The post-doc is only necessary if you want to do academia.

 

[DrBodacious]

maybe im strange, but i think 100k is a good salary, not that doctors dont deserve more, but i would work for that.

It was good 30 years ago.

 

[NonTradMed]

Wow, we have some RICH people on these boards. The AVERAGE US family of four makes around $60,000 last time I checked....those poor, POOR people! How do they ever survive?! Darn it, didn't even realize my parents are only slightly above lower middle class.

Seriously, I understand some people's angst about "only" making $100,000 b/c of the student debt. To me, I would still go into medicine if it paid $100,000, but I'd make sure to got to a cheap school!

Since many here say $100,000 is underpaid b/c of the student debt most physicians have to carry, my question is, would you go into medicine if med school debt was equivalent to the average undergrad's debt, and you'd come out making "only" $100,000?

I consider a low six figure salary a fair salary if med school debt is lower than it is....and residency not so exhausting. Otherwise, I feel med school would be hard pressed to attract the top people it does if it fails to compensate for the enormous debt and long hours of residency.

 

[Gleevec]

I think people on this thread need to realize that if salaries went down significantly, that Congress would place price controls on med schools forcing them to drastically lower tuition-- otherwise only rich altruists can enter medicine, as opposed to any altruist. So I feel those issues are unrelated.

Socialized medicine ends up being bad because there is a shortage of specialists. In a country like the US, it would be better if there was universal health care insurance for the uninsured (a substantial number of children in the US are uninsured, which is the worst part of all of this).

The problem with having greedy insurance companies in charge of malpractice rates is that studies have shown that in states that have capped malpractice damages, that insurance companies basically assume that benefit as profit, rather than passing down the lower costs to doctors. So capitalism has its good and bad aspects, especially when you are dealing with life and death, but someone really needs to pass some laws to put some pressure on insurance companies.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

The problem with having greedy insurance companies in charge of malpractice rates is that studies have shown that in states that have capped malpractice damages, that insurance companies basically assume that benefit as profit, rather than passing down the lower costs to doctors. So capitalism has its good and bad aspects, especially when you are dealing with life and death, but someone really needs to pass some laws to put some pressure on insurance companies.

Did the Trial Lawyers of America fund that study? If you believe that, you don't believe in capitalism or Western Civilization, because it is completely against all the principles of modern economics. Has it occurred to you that businesses compete with each other and assuming there is no monopoly, it makes no sense that some upstart insurance company wouldn't come in and say, "cost of business has gone down 20% due to the limiting of frivilous awards from hyper-litigation, let me lower rates 15% and pick up a bunch of doctors currently being covered by other firms who haven't lowered their prices accordingly?

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

The previous poster was talking about grad students. Law students go to professional school. The point is that people who attain phd's in physics, math, chemistry, etc do work as long as residents(and longer in many cases) completing their phd and doing a post-doc or two. They make even less than residents in most cases. And my guess is that 95% of the population probably can't get a phd in physics(not that that's a strong argument anyway). Yet after they complete their last post-doc and take a position in academia or industry, they do not expect to be compensated in the 150-250k range like physicians.

Physicians don't have a monopoly on working hard, improving people's lives, or intense pressure to succeed.

Those 80 weeks professors put in are killer. and it's not like they get almost 6 months a year off.

 

[jedirampage]

Those 80 weeks professors put in are killer. and it's not like they get almost 6 months a year off.

In defense of professors (specifically in the basic sciences) they do but in much more than 40 hours per week and any professor that wants to continue their research cannot take off half a year. They may not have to teach during some summer terms but they are still working, although the stress level is not as high as for physicians.

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

In defense of professors (specifically in the basic sciences) they do but in much more than 40 hours per week and any professor that wants to continue their research cannot take off half a year. They may not have to teach during some summer terms but they are still working, although the stress level is not as high as for physicians.

that's true, but many humanities professors put in way less than 40 hrs. a week. anyway, my main point is this:

1. it is EXTREMELY difficult to get into med school. THankfully, you must be the cream of the crop.
2. it is EXTREMELY hard to get through med school. although most matriculants do it, you must bust your ass.
3. after med school you must work 80 hr weeks for 45K for 4-7 years.
4. after residency you work extremely long hours (mostly) and are both professionally and legally (in many cases) responsible for the survival of other people.
5. while you are doing all this, you are expected to stay up on a body of knowledge that turns over as often as every 4 years.

for all these reasons, dr's make good money. i can't imagine why anyone would think it was too much, or why anyone would voluntarily say "oh they could cut salaries in half, or by two-thirds and i'd feel lucky!" it's just silly. the market is what it is. you'll never find a bunch mechanics sitting around talking about how much less they'de take to do their jobs.

 

[jedirampage]

that's true, but many humanities professors put in way less than 40 hrs. a week. anyway, my main point is this:

1. it is EXTREMELY difficult to get into med school. THankfully, you must be the cream of the crop.
2. it is EXTREMELY hard to get through med school. although most matriculants do it, you must bust your ass.
3. after med school you must work 80 hr weeks for 45K for 4-7 years.
4. after residency you work extremely long hours (mostly) and are both professionally and legally (in many cases) responsible for the survival of other people.
5. while you are doing all this, you are expected to stay up on a body of knowledge that turns over as often as every 4 years.

for all these reasons, dr's make good money. i can't imagine why anyone would think it was too much, or why anyone would voluntarily say "oh they could cut salaries in half, or by two-thirds and i'd feel lucky!" it's just silly. the market is what it is. you'll never find a bunch mechanics sitting around talking about how much less they'de take to do their jobs.

I agree, the compensation matches the investment of time and resources.

 

[spinestudent]

Those 80 weeks professors put in are killer. and it's not like they get almost 6 months a year off.

But back to your theory on "intense pressure to gain admittance", becoming a tenured professor at a research institution is much more difficult than getting into medical school. You've got to stand out to a much greater degree amongst a really talented group to begin with. It's a heck of a lot "harder" to become a tenured professor of chemistry at any university than it is to become an anesthesiologist, yet the anesthesiologist makes 2.5-3x as much. And the average attending works more like 60 hrs/week, not 80.

 

[missbonnie]

I agree, the compensation matches the investment of time and resources.

hmm, how does that model fit with how celebrity actors/actresses are compensated?

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

But back to your theory on "intense pressure to gain admittance", becoming a tenured professor at a research institution is much more difficult than getting into medical school. You've got to stand out to a much greater degree amongst a really talented group to begin with. It's a heck of a lot "harder" to become a tenured professor of chemistry at any university than it is to become an anesthesiologist, yet the anesthesiologist makes 2.5-3x as much. And the average attending works more like 60 hrs/week, not 80.

so take up a collection from dirty, overpaid doctors to benefit noble, suffering chem prof's.

 

[oudoc08]

You are correct, a Doctor in Manhattan needs to make more than 100K. But, the majority of the Nation is not Manhattan. I am actually from Honolulu and understand perfectly well that there are places in the country where 100K is not enough. What i mean by 100K is adjustable. (ie 160 in Mannhatan, 85K in OKlahoma) Doctors must be paid enough for all the things you mentioned. All i am saying is that the profession involves sacrafice. If someone wants 3 BMW's and a House at Aspen, maybe they should do something else.THERE IS NOHING WRONG with making a lot of money, however i do not believe medicine is the place to do it.


{Somday they'll teach me to Spell}

Well, I live in Oklahoma, and between my wife and I, we grossed just over 100k last year. We have two kids that cost us apx. 700/mo in daycare, a 1600 sf house w/ a $1000 mortgage pmt., utilities (about 250.00/mo) have two cars (fairly new) total pmts about $1000, and student loans ($300.00 /mo) and health, life and car insurance (about $600.00/mo).

So, before food, clothing, gas, credit cards, and other expenses, we have about $3900 in bills. After taxes, my wife brings home about $4200/mo, I bring home about $500. This leaves us about $800/mo to feed everybody, buy gas, save for retirement, pay credit cards, etc. etc. etc.

What I am saying is that while we are not rich or well off by most standards we do live happily though struggle to pay bills at the end of the month, and very rarely have money left over for anything extra. Doctors spend a large portion of their lives training to make good money, while people who make significantly less were able to work all of those years. Thus, I believe they deserve to make a good chunk of money to allow them to reap the rewards of diligent efforts. I would like to have a nice boat, an airplane, and enough money left over to not have to fight with my wife about whether we have the money to pick up McDonalds on the way home.

I have said it, and I'll say it again. $100k is not as much as it sounds, and only people who don't make it think that it is. In order to have the life that most people envision doctors to have, you need to be pulling in at least double that (and I live in Oklahoma where the cost of living is fairly cheap), so triple that in areas of the country that have higher cost of living.

Those of you who think docs should make 100k a year, should move to France or Canada and take your socialized medicine with you.

 

[spinestudent]

Well, I live in Oklahoma, and between my wife and I, we grossed just over 100k last year. We have two kids that cost us apx. 700/mo in daycare, a 1600 sf house w/ a $1000 mortgage pmt., utilities (about 250.00/mo) have two cars (fairly new) total pmts about $1000, and student loans ($300.00 /mo) and health, life and car insurance (about $600.00/mo).

.

you've got some excess there that can be trimmed. $1000/month just for car payments? That means your driving two new nice(500/month is about a 30-35k car) cars. One would be understandable, but a good rule for middle class two income families is to try and drive one of the cars that is paid off while driving one newer car that still requires payments.

Plus, you are making virtually nothing. Most people who make close to 100k such as your wife aren't married to men who make virtually nothing(no offense, just the way it usually is). So if we are comparing how much buying power a physician's 100k salary has, and we are speaking in terms of family life, we shouldn't assume that the other spouse will make ~10k a year. That's not normal.

 

[DrewFromVA]

I wanted to lend my perspective on the income issue, especially regarding how far you can stretch the dollar... Let me preface that with the statement that I believe doctors are worth every penny they earn, and probably more. I come from a family with 6 kids, and I know for a fact our family never made more than $30-32k a year. Did we have everything we wanted whenever we wanted it? Of course not. The statement that the "the only people that think 100 grand is a lot of money are those that don't make that much" is only an indictment on those who make such statements. Are you going to be able to own a vacation house at Lake Tahoe earning "only" $100k a year? Will you retire to spend the rest of your days cruising around the world on your luxury yatch? Probably not, but you can certainly enjoy a very comfortable lifestyle, and be materially better off than a lot of people. Once again, I hope to one day have the potential as a doctor to make well over 100 a year, so none of this is meant to say that doctors make too much, or anything like that...

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

you've got some excess there that can be trimmed. $1000/month just for car payments? That means your driving two new nice(500/month is about a 30-35k car) cars. One would be understandable, but a good rule for middle class two income families is to try and drive one of the cars that is paid off while driving one newer car that still requires payments.

Plus, you are making virtually nothing. Most people who make close to 100k such as your wife aren't married to men who make virtually nothing(no offense, just the way it usually is). So if we are comparing how much buying power a physician's 100k salary has, and we are speaking in terms of family life, we shouldn't assume that the other spouse will make ~10k a year. That's not normal.

i can't believe you would sit here and count someone elses money for them. that's really really ballsy. maybe you should just accept that the market is what it is and stay out of pple like OUDOC's pockets.

 

[DrewFromVA]

I wanted to lend my perspective on the income issue, especially regarding how far you can stretch the dollar... Let me preface that with the statement that I believe doctors are worth every penny they earn, and probably more. I come from a family with 6 kids, and I know for a fact our family never made more than $30-32k a year. Did we have everything we wanted whenever we wanted it? Of course not. The statement that the "the only people that think 100 grand is a lot of money are those that don't make that much" is only an indictment on those who make such statements. Are you going to be able to own a vacation house at Lake Tahoe earning "only" $100k a year? Will you retire to spend the rest of your days cruising around the world on your luxury yatch? Probably not, but you can certainly enjoy a very comfortable lifestyle, and be materially better off than a lot of people. Once again, I hope to one day have the potential as a doctor to make well over 100 a year, so none of this is meant to say that doctors make too much, or anything like that...

 

[ehd327]

This truely depends on the location. The cost of living varies across the nation. If you're living in So Cal, Miami, or New York, for instance, 100K will be nothing for a family of three. However, if you live in a suburb of South Carolina, 100K might be plenty.

 

[soroki219]

just a tidbit, i'm originally from the U.S.S.R., and my parents were both doctors there, under communism. the funny thing was, that just as many people wanted to be physicians, and the competition was just as rough. keep in mind, the doctors of the USSR made just as much money and lived just as comfortably as plumbers and streetsweepers and mechanics. yet everyone still wanted to go to med school.

 

[omarsaleh66]

When im studying for my exams, and Ive been up for countless hours, I swear the only thing that keeps me going is the thought of upgrading from my carrolla to a brand new camry when im a rich doctor!!!!

 

[spinestudent]

i can't believe you would sit here and count someone elses money for them. that's really really ballsy. maybe you should just accept that the market is what it is and stay out of pple like OUDOC's pockets.

The market is what it is? When did I ever disagree with that? The problem here is that OUDOC tried to count his money and explain how they were struggling on 100k. I simply pointed out that paying 1000/month in car payments alone is not the norm and is not indicative of families that are struggling. Families who are struggling in america today don't spend 1000/month on car notes alone. I also tried to connect it to the general theme of the thread by pointing out that hypothetical 100k earners aren't likely to marry someone who makes just 10k/year.

I have to say you're not making a lot of sense on this thread in general. You clearly have an inflated sense of what sort of an accomplishment it is to get into medical school(all the cream of the crop nonsense). Sure I'm glad I'll be going to a good allopathic school next year. Sure I worked hard for it. But I'm not going to sit around and act like we're some select chosen group that professionals in most other fields had no shot at because it is so extremely difficult to enter. That's bs.

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

I have to say you're not making a lot of sense on this thread in general. You clearly have an inflated sense of what sort of an accomplishment it is to get into medical school(all the cream of the crop nonsense). Sure I'm glad I'll be going to a good allopathic school next year. Sure I worked hard for it. But I'm not going to sit around and act like we're some select chosen group that professionals in most other fields had no shot at because it is so extremely difficult to enter. That's bs.

look, you can come on here and be the egoless, selfless saint all you want. you can go ahead and figure out what the bare minimum you need to survive is and work for that if you so choose. however, if you think "most people in any proffesion could get into med school" than you're just wrong. there are law and business schools that require little more than 2.0's. honestly, holier than thou stuff gets old really fast. i doubt anyone on here would doubt that it's EXTREMELY difficult to get into a US med school and that if you do, you probably have well above average academic abilities and you probably worked your ass off. furthermore, that is just one small part of the picture (as i have pointed out in EVERY SINGLE POST I MADE ON THIS SUBJECT). You also work your ass off in med school, are a slave basically for 4 - 7 years and then have peoples lives in your hand every day. for all those reasons, doctors have strong earning potential. if you want to, when you graduate med school, and finish your res, you can start lobbying doc's to take less money, say about 2/3 less than what they currently make. we'll see how well your campaign does. either that, or you could stop the high-horseism and admit that it's hard to do what we're about to do and if we earn big $, it's for just that reason. that we damn well earned it.

 

[SarahGM]

The market is what it is? When did I ever disagree with that? The problem here is that OUDOC tried to count his money and explain how they were struggling on 100k. I simply pointed out that paying 1000/month in car payments alone is not the norm and is not indicative of families that are struggling. Families who are struggling in america today don't spend 1000/month on car notes alone. I also tried to connect it to the general theme of the thread by pointing out that hypothetical 100k earners aren't likely to marry someone who makes just 10k/year.

Spinestudent, I'm with you on this. I mean, after all, the poster DID spell out his budget for us. But the one thing that did stand out to me was the car payments. I pay $241 a month for a 2002 Ford Focus which runs great and treats me just fine.
I'm not impugning OUDOC for paying 1000 a month on his family's two cars. We all have our priorities. However, for me, it would be abundantly clear where I could cut corners. And perhaps it was for you, too. No harm in speaking out.

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

fine, maybe it was ok for ss to criticise OUdoc's budget, however i will say even if he only paid 600, having 400 extra dollars a month is nothing very good. nonetheless, i will end my part in this ridiculous debate by saying 2 things.

1. Could anybody here imagine walking into a room full of practicing physicians and telling them they should be willing to work for much less?

and two (and this is a direct quote from a previous post of mine), doctors make very good money for the following reasons:
1. it is EXTREMELY difficult to get into med school. THankfully, you must be the cream of the crop.
2. it is EXTREMELY hard to get through med school. although most matriculants do it, you must bust your ass.
3. after med school you must work 80 hr weeks for 45K for 4-7 years.
4. after residency you work extremely long hours (mostly) and are both professionally and legally (in many cases) responsible for the survival of other people.
5. while you are doing all this, you are expected to stay up on a body of knowledge that turns over as often as every 4 years.

for all these reasons, docs deserve what they earn. that's all.

 

[oudoc08]

you've got some excess there that can be trimmed. $1000/month just for car payments? That means your driving two new nice(500/month is about a 30-35k car) cars. One would be understandable, but a good rule for middle class two income families is to try and drive one of the cars that is paid off while driving one newer car that still requires payments.

Plus, you are making virtually nothing. Most people who make close to 100k such as your wife aren't married to men who make virtually nothing(no offense, just the way it usually is). So if we are comparing how much buying power a physician's 100k salary has, and we are speaking in terms of family life, we shouldn't assume that the other spouse will make ~10k a year. That's not normal.

Point 1. Yes, you're right, we have two 2002 vehicles, a Chevy Tahoe, and a Honda Accord. I also like the fact that you indicated that we are middle class. This is an appropriate label if you know us, where we live and how we live.
Point 2. You're right, I am making virtually nothing, because I'm working part-time while getting ready to go to medical school this fall. Then I will make nothing. However, why shouldn't we assume the other spouse will make ~10k/year?

Part of the draw of making a physician's salary is that you SHOULD be able, after working your arse off for 15 years, to drive two new cars, as well as have your spouse stay home and raise your kids, if desired. My point is, on this salary, we can barely afford to.

Could we trim the excess? Sure. We could live in a crappy house, drive banged up cars, and eat from the garbage. The point is, my wife busted her rear in pharmacy school, and I will be doing the same in medical school so we DON"T HAVE TO. In addition, I will be have about 150k in unsubsidized stafford loans to pay off.

By the time you add in the loss I will be incurring, by not working for the next 10 years, as well as the loss of investment that I could have been making over that ten years, medical school will be about (as another poster stated) a 7 figure investment.

This is why the salary of a physician is justified at being on average 300k/year. Could I get "rich" another way? Sure. I'm becoming a physcian, because medicine is what I love. Do I love it enough to throw the rest of my life in the toilet? No. Do I expect to monetarily gain, and is this a fair portion of my resons for wanting to spend a ton of my life, and sacrifice even more? Absolutely.

Am I a greedy selfish bastard? You decide.

 

[oudoc08]

Spinestudent, I'm with you on this. I mean, after all, the poster DID spell out his budget for us. But the one thing that did stand out to me was the car payments. I pay $241 a month for a 2002 Ford Focus which runs great and treats me just fine.
I'm not impugning OUDOC for paying 1000 a month on his family's two cars. We all have our priorities. However, for me, it would be abundantly clear where I could cut corners. And perhaps it was for you, too. No harm in speaking out.

Well, I don't like stretching payments out for the rest of my life, and paying a ton in interest either, thus the larger payments.

2002 Tahoe apx. 750 month Sticker 32000
2002 Honda Accord apx. 400 month Sticker 21000

So actually, car payments are about 1150 month.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Somehow, I don't think they're having this discussion at www.studentlawyer.net.

 

[skypilot]

Well, I don't like stretching payments out for the rest of my life, and paying a ton in interest either, thus the larger payments.

2002 Tahoe apx. 750 month Sticker 32000
2002 Honda Accord apx. 400 month Sticker 21000

Not to give you a hard time, but you spent almost an entire year's after tax disposable income on your two cars. Couldn't you have found less expensive options? Plus with gas at $2 per gallon you will have to cut back on driving that Chevy Tahoe too.

 

[spinestudent]

Point 1. Yes, you're right, we have two 2002 vehicles, a Chevy Tahoe, and a Honda Accord. I also like the fact that you indicated that we are middle class. This is an appropriate label if you know us, where we live and how we live.
Point 2. You're right, I am making virtually nothing, because I'm working part-time while getting ready to go to medical school this fall. Then I will make nothing. However, why shouldn't we assume the other spouse will make ~10k/year?

Part of the draw of making a physician's salary is that you SHOULD be able, after working your arse off for 15 years, to drive two new cars, as well as have your spouse stay home and raise your kids, if desired. My point is, on this salary, we can barely afford to.


This is why the salary of a physician is justified at being on average 300k/year. Could I get "rich" another way? Sure. I'm becoming a physcian, because medicine is what I love. Do I love it enough to throw the rest of my life in the toilet? No. Do I expect to monetarily gain, and is this a fair portion of my resons for wanting to spend a ton of my life, and sacrifice even more? Absolutely.

Am I a greedy selfish bastard? You decide.

No. I don't think you are a greedy bastard at all. I agree with much of what you say. A few quick points: I've never seen anything close to 300k quoted as the average physician salary. 195-200k is the average for physicians as a whole. Primary care tends to run about 150k with the some medicine specialties 250k. 275-300k is about the average I've seen for the higher paying specialties(radiology, uro, etc).

I don't think we should assume the other spouse in a family with one spouse making 100k will make 10k because that simply is an unusual circumstance. I understand that is the case in your situation, but it's certainly not typical.

I don't know....everyone has their own stories. Some people can't find that their lifestyle is met at 300k, while others can do so at 45k. But you would be surprised how much money can be saved on cars and car insurances and stuff. Like the tahoe....would it have been that much worse to have a non-new SUV instead? American SUV's have notoriously poor resale values. You could have saved ten thousand or so easily by getting a model a few years older, and it wouldn't have really made any difference in your QOL. I would argue that because you can make choices like that means you are doing pretty well now making 100k. But like I said, everyone has different standards of what is doing well.

(How do you manage 150k in unsub staff at U of O? Is there budget almost 40k/year?)

 

[kelenaf]

How do you know if this situation is typical or not? I'm sure there are plenty of families out there who for some reason or another (i.e. children) are going to have one parent (mother or father) stay at home and not work for many years. Are you saying that any one spouse who makes >$100k/year will selectively pick another spouse who makes at least as much? What data support this?


But back to the theme of this thread. I think the problem here is...

Income is not a sufficient measure of altruism. Society agrees that a general surgeon in an underserved area deserves more than one in more comfortable/affluent suburbia. Does that make surgeon #1 greedy? Less altruistic?

I look at it this way:

1. We are altruistic: we desire to serve our fellow man.
2. As doctors we will make a lot of money.
3. Making a lot of money does not prohibit you from being altruistic.

In my opinion, money and altruism do not need to be reconciled - they are not in conflict to begin with.

For those who think they are, it's an easy trap to think that choosing money over altruism, because it is denying altruism, is therefore greedy. This causes such people heartache and turmoil.

Only you know if you have lost that altruistic instinct that brought you into medicine - and if you ever get to that point, you'll have problems.

 

[Gleevec]

Did the Trial Lawyers of America fund that study? If you believe that, you don't believe in capitalism or Western Civilization, because it is completely against all the principles of modern economics. Has it occurred to you that businesses compete with each other and assuming there is no monopoly, it makes no sense that some upstart insurance company wouldn't come in and say, "cost of business has gone down 20% due to the limiting of frivilous awards from hyper-litigation, let me lower rates 15% and pick up a bunch of doctors currently being covered by other firms who haven't lowered their prices accordingly?

Uh, Its called price-fixing. Apparently you were under a rock during the California energy crisis when a number of "capitalistic" energy firms cooperated to keep prices artificially high (which they are now being taken to court for). These companies were in fact deregulated for the very purpose of fostering competition, but instead decided to cash in on the energy crisis through illegal price fixing. Same thing is happening with insurance companies now, as they are all basically dragging their feet on changing prices.

Health care and insurance are by no means under the same laws as other commodities (technology, consumables, etc) are (in fact, its more like a necesity, like energy), and because of oligopolies in the insurance industry price fixing, malpractice insurance rates are yet to go down in most states.

So what insurance company is paying you off to post here?

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

Uh, Its called price-fixing. Apparently you were under a rock during the California energy crisis when a number of "capitalistic" energy firms cooperated to keep prices artificially high (which they are now being taken to court for). These companies were in fact deregulated for the very purpose of fostering competition, but instead decided to cash in on the energy crisis through illegal price fixing. Same thing is happening with insurance companies now, as they are all basically dragging their feet on changing prices.

Health care and insurance are by no means under the same laws as other commodities (technology, consumables, etc) are (in fact, its more like a necesity, like energy), and because of oligopolies in the insurance industry price fixing, malpractice insurance rates are yet to go down in most states.

So what insurance company is paying you off to post here?

so true, but as you also point out, those energy co's are now in court. also, if the big boys just refused to lower prices, than that would really leave a spot for a small independent. that's happened w/ auto insurance in lots of places. i guess what i'm saying is that i believe the market would correct.

 

[oudoc08]

No. I don't think you are a greedy bastard at all. I agree with much of what you say. A few quick points: I've never seen anything close to 300k quoted as the average physician salary. 195-200k is the average for physicians as a whole. Primary care tends to run about 150k with the some medicine specialties 250k. 275-300k is about the average I've seen for the higher paying specialties(radiology, uro, etc).

I don't think we should assume the other spouse in a family with one spouse making 100k will make 10k because that simply is an unusual circumstance. I understand that is the case in your situation, but it's certainly not typical.

I don't know....everyone has their own stories. Some people can't find that their lifestyle is met at 300k, while others can do so at 45k. But you would be surprised how much money can be saved on cars and car insurances and stuff. Like the tahoe....would it have been that much worse to have a non-new SUV instead? American SUV's have notoriously poor resale values. You could have saved ten thousand or so easily by getting a model a few years older, and it wouldn't have really made any difference in your QOL. I would argue that because you can make choices like that means you are doing pretty well now making 100k. But like I said, everyone has different standards of what is doing well.

(How do you manage 150k in unsub staff at U of O? Is there budget almost 40k/year?)

Tuition is 60k, I already have 25k in undergrad debt, and will be borrowing the rest to make up for my income lost over 4 years. Their budget is apx 35/year as I have 2 kids.

BTW, I wasn't really wanting to argue how to get car pmts down a couple hundred bucks, my point was that I believe after sacrificing so much to become a physician, one should be able to buy a new Chevy Tahoe w/o having to worry about making the pmt. Actually, my wife spent 8 years of her life becoming a pharmacist. I think she deserves the Tahoe.

 

[DrBodacious]

About car payments... I think taking out loans to drive a nice car is foolish, not that I think people who do so are foolish really, but it's certainly not my style, I don't try to look richer than I am. Why not just drive a used car for five years and buy a nice new car outright and save on the interest. I don't think people in any profession should expect to be living as upper middle class folks until they actually get out of debt and save up some $. You'll be so busy during med school and residency anyway that you won't be worrying about how your car looks for the 15 minutes to and from work.

I really don't get how people can say doctors should have their salaries cut to $100,000. That's communism; we live in America, deal with it. If you can't spend the $, feel free to give it to charity. I'd like to have the option of spending $ how I choose rather than letting the gov't control everything. I'm sure I'll do some philanthropy in due time.

 

[DrBodacious]

I'd just like to continue my rant and say that people who base their lives around money are the ones who miss out. I hope to find happiness in life regardless of how much money I make, and if I get rich and am able to do cool hobbies, then all the better, but I'm in no rush...

 

[skypilot]

I believe after sacrificing so much to become a physician, one should be able to buy a new Chevy Tahoe w/o having to worry about making the pmt. Actually, my wife spent 8 years of her life becoming a pharmacist. I think she deserves the Tahoe.

Again, not to give you a hard time, but what would give your wife more pleasure? Driving a big honking Chevy Tahoe or not having to worry about having enough money to pay the bills at the end of the month?

My sister just bought a seven passenger fully loaded Ford Taurus station wagon with only 19 thousand miles on it (effectively a brand new car) for only $8 grand.

 

[oudoc08]

No. I don't think you are a greedy bastard at all. I agree with much of what you say. A few quick points: I've never seen anything close to 300k quoted as the average physician salary. 195-200k is the average for physicians as a whole. Primary care tends to run about 150k with the some medicine specialties 250k. 275-300k is about the average I've seen for the higher paying specialties(radiology, uro, etc).

I don't think we should assume the other spouse in a family with one spouse making 100k will make 10k because that simply is an unusual circumstance. I understand that is the case in your situation, but it's certainly not typical.

I don't know....everyone has their own stories. Some people can't find that their lifestyle is met at 300k, while others can do so at 45k. But you would be surprised how much money can be saved on cars and car insurances and stuff. Like the tahoe....would it have been that much worse to have a non-new SUV instead? American SUV's have notoriously poor resale values. You could have saved ten thousand or so easily by getting a model a few years older, and it wouldn't have really made any difference in your QOL. I would argue that because you can make choices like that means you are doing pretty well now making 100k. But like I said, everyone has different standards of what is doing well.

(How do you manage 150k in unsub staff at U of O? Is there budget almost 40k/year?)

These salaries support much higher numbers than what you state.

http://www.jacksonandharris.com/company/pcps.aspx

 

[Andrew_Doan]

I recently posted in the Socialized medicine thread that i would be willing to work for less than what some doctors make.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=114917

I personally think that anywhere around 100 grand is decent money. I got some passionate negative responses to this

QUOTE "don't trip off that high horse of yours, but where i live (NY) 100k is lower middle class. sorry if i don't plan on investing 10 years of my life in training for something that will leave me counting pennies and unable to save much for the education of my children or my own well earned retirement.'

Anyway, what do you all think. Personally i think Medicine is a great career, but there are much better ways to get rich. (Law, Business, Airline Pilot, Drug smuggler, ect)

I agree with you. I'll be working for the military as an ophthalmologist by choice. This will give me a 100K/year salary, and I will be completely content. The person above made a good point about 100K not going very far in NY; however, who says that you have to work in NYC or big cities as a physician?!

There are easier ways of making $$$; thus, this is why I'll have other business ventures related to ophthalmology and medicine on the side!

 

[Pre-Dent-David]

I recently posted in the Socialized medicine thread that i would be willing to work for less than what some doctors make.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=114917

I personally think that anywhere around 100 grand is decent money. I got some passionate negative responses to this

QUOTE "don't trip off that high horse of yours, but where i live (NY) 100k is lower middle class. sorry if i don't plan on investing 10 years of my life in training for something that will leave me counting pennies and unable to save much for the education of my children or my own well earned retirement.'

Anyway, what do you all think. Personally i think Medicine is a great career, but there are much better ways to get rich. (Law, Business, Airline Pilot, Drug smuggler, ect)

I actually think this is not going far enough. I think that doctors should PAY their patients for the privilege of treating them. The government can then give the doctors a stipend for the exact amount of their patient costs + 1.75% tip up to a max of $10,000. They would really only need 2% for things like clothes etc since they could build on free housing adjacent to the hospital for the doctors and their families to live in. Also the doctors could have free cafeteria food as much as they wanted.

 

[spinestudent]

These salaries support much higher numbers than what you state.

http://www.jacksonandharris.com/company/pcps.aspx

Wow, those are some high numbers. I would tend to favor those given by the AMA, however, which last year showed average comp. for all specialties combined to be 199k. Much larger sample there. If you'll notice, some of the specialties they have in the above survery don't even have numbers reported(because there weren't any data points?). There are also some very strange comparative numbers which would lead one to believe the # of data points is questionable(regular pathologists making more money than int. radiology in one region??)

 

[MzzMisty]

dude, here's what you're failing to grasp. as a single person in rochester, i'm sure you could live quite well on 100k. HOWEVER, let's say i've got 2 kids and live in manhattan. i take home about 60K or 5K/mo. An apartment w/ 3 bedrooms in a decent area of NYC is 500k minimum. that's a mortgage of about 3K/mo. taxes, heat and building fees are about another 1K. that's 80% of my salary and i have yet to pay for transportation for me and my family. i have yet to put one bite of food into any of our mouths. i have yet to put an article of clothing on the backs of my children. i have yet to save one red cent for their education or my retirement. i have yet to pay for any entertainment of any sort. so PLEASE, accept that the market is what it is for a reason, and stop trying to force your narrow view of "good enough" on everyone else. it's just silly.

I think you need a new agent if your mortgage was 3 grand a month.. even with it being a 500K dollar apt.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

I think you need a new agent if your mortgage was 3 grand a month.. even with it being a 500K dollar apt.

$3000/month is about right for a $500K house/apt.

One should figure in property taxes and insurance too.

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

I think you need a new agent if your mortgage was 3 grand a month.. even with it being a 500K dollar apt.

actually, i was going off a 6% loan w/o much down. anyway, it's not a big deal.

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

I agree with you. I'll be working for the military as an ophthalmologist by choice. This will give me a 100K/year salary, and I will be completely content. The person above made a good point about 100K not going very far in NY; however, who says that you have to work in NYC or big cities as a physician?!

There are easier ways of making $$$; thus, this is why I'll have other business ventures related to ophthalmology and medicine on the side!

of course it's your perogative to choose whatever type of position you feel you will enjoy, but i think after 11 years of training, if someone wanted to practice in say NYC they should have the earning potential to live there comfortably. don't you think? also, i got from the OP's post here and on other threads that they supported the slashing of dr's salaries (b/c of some type of altruism?).

 

[Andrew_Doan]

of course it's your perogative to choose whatever type of position you feel you will enjoy, but i think after 11 years of training, if someone wanted to practice in say NYC they should have the earning potential to live there comfortably. don't you think?

This is where a physician's thinking is flawed. Some feel they are entitled to working anywhere they want because of all their training. Medicine is business, and we all must live by the basic fundamentals of supply & demand.

No, I don't think physicians should make an above and beyond salary when living in an over-saturated market. If money is important, then physicians should look at the rural and small city opportunities.

 

[katunoshi]

Wow, those are some high numbers. I would tend to favor those given by the AMA, however, which last year showed average comp. for all specialties combined to be 199k. (...cut...)

Hi, my uncle who is an orthopedic surgeon (in Italy) went to US, some years ago (maybe San Francisco,...but I don't remember exactly) for some weeks to improve some of his skills (maybe something about arthroscopy...).

My uncle told me that his American surgeon "mentor" got about 100.000$ for a single arthroscopy he performed...!

So I can't figure out the "low salary" of 199k that spinestudent cited...(??)

(However, in Italy doctors earn much less than in US I think... only very few ones make about 500 euros/year i.e. about 500 $/year... the average is much much lower, < 100 euros/year...).

Best regards,
Katunoshi

 

[jlee9531]

This is where a physician's thinking is flawed. Some feel they are entitled to working anywhere they want because of all their training. Medicine is business, and we all must live by the basic fundamentals of supply & demand.

No, I don't think physicians should make an above and beyond salary when living in an over-saturated market. If money is important, then physicians should look at the rural and small city opportunities.

good points dr. doan.