I have had 3 solid lab work experiences in the past 2.5 years. However, it worries me that I have minimal to no hospital volunteering/shadowing experience. Will this be detrimental when I apply to med schools?
All Lab Bench Research + No Hosp Volunteering/Shadowing = No Med School?
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yes
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I'm sure you can already guess the impression that will have on med schools. Med Schools will question how come you want to go into medicine when you don't have any clinical experience. The reason why volunteering/shadowing is so important is to show schools that you understand what environment you are getting yourself into.
You don't want that to be a red flag on your app. I think it's all right if you have not been doing it for years, but you at least need some consistently now. If you start now, you should be fine.
You don't want that to be a red flag on your app. I think it's all right if you have not been doing it for years, but you at least need some consistently now. If you start now, you should be fine.
In more detail, in high school I watched a couple of surgeries and hospital volunteered weekly and in one summer during undergrad I did do one evening a week for an entire summer, got to interact with the patients and picked up some very memorable experiences I might even mention in my personal statement.
Should I emphasize the quality of my experiences in around ~20 hours of hospital volunteering in undergrad versus a quantity of a lot of hospital hours? Is that a good equalizer and balancer or does number of hours (quantity) really matter in a hospital setting?
Should I emphasize the quality of my experiences in around ~20 hours of hospital volunteering in undergrad versus a quantity of a lot of hospital hours? Is that a good equalizer and balancer or does number of hours (quantity) really matter in a hospital setting?
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I bet they would get in...and get in to a lot of schools.
Clinical xp is pretty much required to be accepted, it doesn't have to be volunteering or shadowing, but you must have been exposed to the field in some way.
http://www.aamc.org/members/gsa/meetings/holisticreview.pdf
look at pages 10 & 11
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If you have the numbers, all this extra stuff is frosting on the cake...a 4.0/40 is going to get in. In the case of the OP, his lab work may give him exposure in some clinical fashion (ie. worked with biochem science lab that was doing stuff that could effect orthopedics).
But to say it is required, I would doubt that. The same holds true for residency. Many say research is required or leadership ect for competitive residencies, but year in and year out, people with just good scores and grades get spots.
Thus, does it help: yes, is it absolutely required: no.
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while you don't necessarily need to volunteer at a hospital I would say you do need clinical experience and volunteering (which may or may not be the same activity). Medical schools get a lot of applications and they need some way to narrow down the field. GPA and MCAT are two of them, and volunteering and clinical experience are two more. You don't want to give AdComs an easy reason to throw out your application. I would definitely get started on some shadowing and volunteering (look at hospitals but also consider someplace like a free clinic, personally I have found that to be the best of my medical volunteer experiences).
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That's most likely not going to be enough. Call a hospital and sign up for a volunteer position.
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+2. Would they get rejected some too because of the lack of clinical, yes. But I'd put money on them getting more than one acceptance if they applied broadly.
Many adcoms will tell you are afraid to admit anyone who has 4.0/40 without any volunteer/shadowing experience in the field. Having all bench work experience simply supports the idea that you might be a better researcher or are more interested in research than becoming doctor. Being a doctor requires patient interaction and showing compassion to help others. While there are hundreds of different ways you can obtain volunteering/shadowing experiences, they are a must regardless of how your gpa/mcat scores are. Research, on the other hand, is more on the optional side as long as you are not intending to specialize in a particular field. So OP, if have not already started volunteering/shadowing, consider swapping some time in the lab for getting involved in a club or hospital in the spring sem. Sooner the better.
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One evening a week for a year or so might be enough, but it could still be on the low side.
are you interested in a career in medical research? If so, you might want to consider MD/PhD programs.
While I can't speak for the MD only programs, I personally started volunteering in a hospital the August I applied for about 4 hours a week, and I've gotten accepted to multiple top programs. I have no shadowing experience, and little other volunteer experience. What I do have is about 3 solid lab experiences and great letters from each PI.
While obviously the MD/PhD committees will value research more than volunteering, each applicant has to also be accepted by the MD committee as well. Are they more lax about volunteering if you're MD/PhD? I don't know, but I'd guess they're not going to lower their standards for anyone.
Medical researchers (MD, PhD, and MD/PhD researchers) are needed just like primary care physicians, and medical schools know this. Most try to accept a diverse class where their graduates will go into all areas of medicine, so I think you have a good chance of getting in somewhere.
While I can't speak for the MD only programs, I personally started volunteering in a hospital the August I applied for about 4 hours a week, and I've gotten accepted to multiple top programs. I have no shadowing experience, and little other volunteer experience. What I do have is about 3 solid lab experiences and great letters from each PI.
While obviously the MD/PhD committees will value research more than volunteering, each applicant has to also be accepted by the MD committee as well. Are they more lax about volunteering if you're MD/PhD? I don't know, but I'd guess they're not going to lower their standards for anyone.
Medical researchers (MD, PhD, and MD/PhD researchers) are needed just like primary care physicians, and medical schools know this. Most try to accept a diverse class where their graduates will go into all areas of medicine, so I think you have a good chance of getting in somewhere.
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OP said it was during HS. It doesn't count for anything. If it were during his/her college years, it'd count for something, but really not much since it'd amount to maybe 50 hrs total.... not going to cut it when most schools want 200-500 hrs clinical + 50-100 hrs shadowing.
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50's probably not enough, but you don't need anywhere near that many.
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That's too much, I think. I don't think med schools are looking for that many hours.
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i don't know if shadowing is that big of deal, i know a lot of people who got in with no shadowing
i myself have no shadowing and have 5 interviews
i myself have no shadowing and have 5 interviews
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It's not required, but I think it's a definite plus, like research experience.
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no doubt its a definite plus, i just don't think that its one of those unwritten rules like clinical volunteering is
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Do you have any real sources, or is this more crap pre-meds make up and pass along among themselves until they believe it?
Purely numbers concluded based off of SDNers who spend hours studying overachieving medapplicant profiles. Again, these numbers don't represent the typical matriculant, who should be fine with just 100-200 hours clinical experience of any kind (hospital volunteer, shadowing, etc) along with a bunch of other ECs. Hours are only one measure of time, months you have continued to do a particular activity is what matters. For example, 3 hours a week for a year is more significant than 20 hours a week for just a summer.
I've been accepted to a US MD program with no clinical experience and minimal shadowing, it is possible. Just be sure you have some volunteer experiences that show you are caring, which I'm hoping you are.
I have lots of research. I've received 4 interviews and have applied to 11 schools, still waiting on 5.
I have lots of research. I've received 4 interviews and have applied to 11 schools, still waiting on 5.
It actually doesn't even matter. If most pre-meds do it, it becomes the de facto standard against which everyone is measured.
It's like running from a lion: you need to run faster than the guy next to you. How fast that is depends on that guy, not on the lion.
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I honestly find it difficult to believe that a 4.0GPA/40MCAT with no clinical experience but load of research would be rejected. That applicant would be admitted to a lot of top 20 medical schools in my opinion. Which brings me to my point: how much research is enough? how many hours of shadowing should an applicant have? how many hours of clinical volunteer work should an applicant have? how does a good student with tons of research hours and publications balance out another student's hundreds of hours of volunteer work? Personally, I don't think you can compare the two, both have their places in the admissions decision and I think they equal each other, but I do believe it is important to have a balance between the two. Any thoughts?
Applying with no clinical experience whatsoever, the odds will be against you. So why risk it? You should be getting some clinical exposure for yourself to find out whether medicine is really what you want to do for the rest of your life.
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Very much agree. Even a little of clinical exposure is much better than nothing at all. And it's not like it's a full time job or anything, so anyone should have some time to do it.
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+3 Especially for MD/Phd.
I have a friend who has had at least a couple interviews so far with no clinical experience to speak of. (MD/MPH though).
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You people are hilarious. The first thing premeds need to get through their heads is that there is no hard and fast rule of "if I do this, get this, have this, I will get in". Med school is a major crapshoot, otherwise everyone with 4.0/40s would get into every school they apply to, but they don't do they? There are TRENDS, yes, but those trends will NOT ALWAYS hold true for every applicant or every school. That's why they have interviews to weed out the overly academic with no social skills or what not. These people have been interviewing for years and can easily see through BS responses and non-genuine stories. Your grades/scores/volunteer stuff will get your foot in the door but if you don't gel with what that school wants then they're not gonna accept you.
For the OP, you need to at least have all your bases covered not just all bench research. Get some volunteering experience and be well-rounded, for whatever that's worth. The game here is not about getting accepted, it's minimizing the chance of being rejected since you can be rejected at different points in the process. The most scrutinized area is before you're offered interviews and at this point they're looking simply at grades and MCATs. Then comes the interview where your personality is scrutinized and where you can now talk about those volunteer/research/etc experiences. Still though, after that you're still NEVER sure you're going to get in but at least you MINIMIZED the chances of getting rejected. At least that's how I viewed the process otherwise you're just left asking questions when you're rejected. Once you grasp that nothing's for certain you'll stress less.
For the OP, you need to at least have all your bases covered not just all bench research. Get some volunteering experience and be well-rounded, for whatever that's worth. The game here is not about getting accepted, it's minimizing the chance of being rejected since you can be rejected at different points in the process. The most scrutinized area is before you're offered interviews and at this point they're looking simply at grades and MCATs. Then comes the interview where your personality is scrutinized and where you can now talk about those volunteer/research/etc experiences. Still though, after that you're still NEVER sure you're going to get in but at least you MINIMIZED the chances of getting rejected. At least that's how I viewed the process otherwise you're just left asking questions when you're rejected. Once you grasp that nothing's for certain you'll stress less.
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i don't buy that at all. my most serious 'clinical' experience was in high school, and it factored heavily into my decision to pursue medicine. why should there be a statue of limitations on experience? doesn't make any sense.
granted, I have continued to to expose myself to clinical environments, but nothing like the work I did back in the day. recently almost all of my work has been lab bench research with almost no connection to medicine.
and those numbers are bogus.
I didn't read beyond the first few, but this is not true. You need a good GPA and MCAT, but a 4.0/40 MCAT would not exclude you.
That said, broaden you experience before applying. Ignore the black&white answers you get here. Clinical experience helps, but let's face it. Shadowing can either be a life-changing experience or one that simply gives you "clinical experience" and a nice LOR. Unless you've done something significant, med schools only see it as a decent addition to your resume.
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i think the main problem would just be that adcoms would question whether you really belong in med school, or in a PhD program.
i went to grad school for my MS to improve my application for med school. (disclaimer: not necessarily the best idea, but at the time i didn't really know what i was doing.) so anyway, when i started out, i was doing just basic science bench research. but i started getting the feeling that it was too far removed from being clinically relevant, and wouldn't help me. so i changed gears, did an anatomy project instead, and used a lot of my newfound free time to get involved in shadowing and clinical volunteering. i think this was the absolute best thing i could have done. especially when i compare myself to other students who were in my program trying to do the same thing (MS to MD). this is purely anecdotal, but it does seem that the students who get really sucked into the bench research didn't get into med school at all. of course, this doesn't account for other differences between my applications and theirs. maybe my stats are better (but i have a feeling they are about the same.) no, honestly, what i think it came down to was the fact that i ditched the bench research to stay focused on med school application things. that involved volunteering, shadowing, and intense MCAT prep. did that pay off for me? sure did.
this isn't to say you won't get in. but the 4.0/40 example is silly because the OP probably doesn't have that. i don't think the OP said, so let's guess a more typical 3.7/31. Still competitive without shadowing and volunteering? maybe, but it would look a lot better if he had it. it's not too late to get it.
i went to grad school for my MS to improve my application for med school. (disclaimer: not necessarily the best idea, but at the time i didn't really know what i was doing.) so anyway, when i started out, i was doing just basic science bench research. but i started getting the feeling that it was too far removed from being clinically relevant, and wouldn't help me. so i changed gears, did an anatomy project instead, and used a lot of my newfound free time to get involved in shadowing and clinical volunteering. i think this was the absolute best thing i could have done. especially when i compare myself to other students who were in my program trying to do the same thing (MS to MD). this is purely anecdotal, but it does seem that the students who get really sucked into the bench research didn't get into med school at all. of course, this doesn't account for other differences between my applications and theirs. maybe my stats are better (but i have a feeling they are about the same.) no, honestly, what i think it came down to was the fact that i ditched the bench research to stay focused on med school application things. that involved volunteering, shadowing, and intense MCAT prep. did that pay off for me? sure did.
this isn't to say you won't get in. but the 4.0/40 example is silly because the OP probably doesn't have that. i don't think the OP said, so let's guess a more typical 3.7/31. Still competitive without shadowing and volunteering? maybe, but it would look a lot better if he had it. it's not too late to get it.
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i agree with whoever said that every premed looks alike on paper. almost everyone has shadowing/volunteering, so i feel like many interviewers and adcoms just come to expect/assume you have it. lol i actually have no clinical volunteering from college, and only about 20 hours of formal shadowing, and have a fair few acceptances to med schools. it's not a requirement.
what *is* a requirement is that you have a solid reason for going into medicine and the 'exposure' to prove it. so for 99% of applicants, shadowing/volunteering is how they are exposed to medicine. but honestly, don't feel like you need to be the same. others may do clinical research, do some type of social work, have parents in medicine with whom they've done significant work, are chronic patients themselves, etc. as long as you reeeeally know what you're getting into, you'll get through the 'why medicine' question that you'll be asked at every single interview just fine.
what *is* a requirement is that you have a solid reason for going into medicine and the 'exposure' to prove it. so for 99% of applicants, shadowing/volunteering is how they are exposed to medicine. but honestly, don't feel like you need to be the same. others may do clinical research, do some type of social work, have parents in medicine with whom they've done significant work, are chronic patients themselves, etc. as long as you reeeeally know what you're getting into, you'll get through the 'why medicine' question that you'll be asked at every single interview just fine.
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Same boat. Will graduate in with 4 years of solid research + publication but minimal clinical experience. I play a varsity sport, and 15hrs/week of practice with 20hrs/week research doesn't leave much time for volunteering. I have some alternative spring breaks and random short-term projects, but nothing super significant.
I'll be taking a year off before applying, so I can travel/have fun/be a normal 22 year old, and will be trying to get solid volunteering & clinical in. I've spent enough times in hospitals with minor injuries (concussions, knee surgeries, the 4th time I broke my arm snowboarding my mom joked that I'd have to start paying my own hospital bills) and visiting a friend who had cancer that I don't think shadowing or clinical volunteering will significantly impact why I want to be a doctor. Still, I wouldn't apply without these things. They just seem to be on the unwritten pre-med checklist.
I'll be taking a year off before applying, so I can travel/have fun/be a normal 22 year old, and will be trying to get solid volunteering & clinical in. I've spent enough times in hospitals with minor injuries (concussions, knee surgeries, the 4th time I broke my arm snowboarding my mom joked that I'd have to start paying my own hospital bills) and visiting a friend who had cancer that I don't think shadowing or clinical volunteering will significantly impact why I want to be a doctor. Still, I wouldn't apply without these things. They just seem to be on the unwritten pre-med checklist.
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