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All UC Applicants; Check This Out

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by Procrastinator, Feb 6, 2002.

  1. Procrastinator

    Procrastinator Senior Member
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    Here are some interesting statistics that I saw in another post. I'm not completely sure what to think about them, I just wanted to see what everyone else thought. Seems sort of unfair to white/hispanic applicants, but then again that may just be me venting because I'm white and I've gotten no love from the UC's eventhough I have a 3.9GPA and a 37 MCAT. Check it out and see it for yourselves and post thoughts here.

    <a href="http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/" target="_blank">http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/</a>

    PS I know this topic has been overdone on SDN, but here are some actual stats that might add to the discussion.
     
  2. jifi

    jifi Member
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    Who is Jerry Cook?
     
  3. jifi

    jifi Member
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    Who is Jerry Cook?
     
  4. Procrastinator

    Procrastinator Senior Member
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    The site says that he is a prof at University of San Diego. I think that he may work for the law school though.
     
  5. jmejia1

    jmejia1 Senior Member
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    I heard the website was trash a very long time ago. tons of scapegoaters consistently quote or reference that website each time there is a AA debate and each time it's concluded that the statistics on that page are flawed.

    let's not forget that in the early 20th century statistics was used to classify African Americans as inferior based on Skull measurements in the famous "Bell Shape Curve" book. not surprisingly it was later confirmed that the statistics were flawed.

    lets not forget the "Bell Shape Curve" proved to be racist and flawed eventhough it had been reviewed by scholars after and before it was published and It was widely quoted and referenced as evidence to enslave blacks. this website is JUST tha--a website. anyone and there momma can write crap-and-a-half and link it up to a URL. wasn't it mark twain who wrote that you can use statistics to mislead or outright lie?
     
  6. Homer J. Simpson

    Homer J. Simpson 1st and goal from the 1 yard line.
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    Thanks for the link.

    That's absolutely infuriating. I think I'll email the link to the UC admissions offices and see if they'll reply.
     
  7. Dr. Don

    Dr. Don Senior Member
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    well, I guess there's still hope for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
     
  8. WaitingImpatiently

    WaitingImpatiently Long Member
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    Like so many others, I'm an Asian male. But unlike most Asians and whites, I'm not bothered a whole lot by those statistics . I know that my "type" of people might not be wanted to the same extent that some minority groups are, but I've accepted that. What's more, I'd actually prefer it to be this way. Right now, my hopes of getting into a UC school are slim, but I do realize that we really do need more minority doctors, especially in California.

    Writing the UC Regents (or whomever) won't do a damn thing.
     
  9. toobsllik

    toobsllik Member
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  10. Procrastinator

    Procrastinator Senior Member
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    It just seems to me like AA is doing a disservice to qualified minority applicants. Oh well, I know that there is little use pondering over it and I should just worry about myself, but I really want a spot in a UC and I feel like less qualified people are getting spots while I'm getting overlooked.
     
  11. Procrastinator

    Procrastinator Senior Member
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    I agree with the statement on the website that suggesting that socioeconomics should be used instead of race for admission purposes. Giving special priviliges to some seems to create racial divides instead of mending them.
     
  12. Homer J. Simpson

    Homer J. Simpson 1st and goal from the 1 yard line.
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by WaitingImpatiently:
    <strong> but I do realize that we really do need more minority doctors, especially in California.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why?
     
  13. WaitingImpatiently

    WaitingImpatiently Long Member
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    To Homer J:

    A doctor at UCLA recently told me something disturbing about healthcare that will stick with me for some time. When I asked him what residents do, he said that they take care of patients in ghettoes and other less-than-wealthy areas. After all, most white and Asian doctors, when they're done with their residency, are probably going to practice either at a major university or in an otherwise nice neighborhood. Black and Latino doctors, I'm assuming (key word), are more likely to serve (not guaranteed, obviously) such underserved communities.

    Perhaps more importantly, though, is the comfort level of the patients in such communities. From my observations, a lot of immigrants tend to see doctors that look like them or at least speak their native tongue. Here in LA, you see Chinese doctors practicing in Chinese communities because of the large patient pool. I mean, my mother, whose English is adequate but not great, only sees Chinese doctors. Maybe she's racist, but she's not alone.

    In communities like East LA, however, a lot of folks only speak Spanish, and while you and I may have 4 years of high school Spanish under our belts, we are likely to have some sort of difficulty effectively communicating with them. As I mentioned before, this problem isn't as severe in Monterey Park or Rowland Heights because we all know how many Asians head into medicine.
     
  14. matthew0126

    matthew0126 Anaheim Angels
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    monterey park/rowland heights LOL :D

    sorry i just had to chuckle a bit, i was born in monterey park -- it's true, yellow faces 99.999%!
     
  15. ramkijai

    ramkijai Member
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    Hi,
    I have a question. Why does the idea of "lower stats" have to mean "less qualified"? "Qualified" to do what? Practice in underserved areas? Act as role models for others? Help the state meet the health care needs of its citizenry? The fact that the average URM has a lower GPA/MCAT is clear. But it seems that URMs have the same graduation rate as nonURMs from med school (about 90% is my guess just looking quickly at some stats). Maybe med schools know that an average MCAT score difference between 11.5 and 9.5 is not as significant as we may think in determining who will or won't succeed in med school. In that context maybe social responsibility and factors should play a greater role especially for tax payer supported institutions whose mission is to meet the needs of its citizens by best defining what it means to be "qualified".
     
  16. jrucb

    jrucb Member
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    Hey Everyone,

    I'd definitely have to agree with ramkijai. His ideas are exactly what everyone needs to understand and keep in mind, instead of getting frustrated for not being accepted at medical schoools. the HRSA recently published an annual report, in which statistical data indicated that Minority Americans are five times more likely to treat other under-represented minorities in
    underserved areas. And also that, Minority Americans working in health care can help end disparities in health status.

    Peace out
    Javi
     
  17. Procrastinator

    Procrastinator Senior Member
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    While that is probably true, I would like to see socioeconomic data and cross reference that with the minority data.
     
  18. none

    none 1K Member
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    Well, we certainly need physicians in the Central Valley. Who's ready to sign up? (And no, your 6 week stint in Fresno from UCSF doesn't count.)
     
  19. Homer J. Simpson

    Homer J. Simpson 1st and goal from the 1 yard line.
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by ramkijai:
    <strong> Maybe med schools know that an average MCAT score difference between 11.5 and 9.5 is not as significant as we may think in determining who will or won't succeed in med school. In that context maybe social responsibility and factors should play a greater role especially for tax payer supported institutions whose mission is to meet the needs of its citizens by best defining what it means to be "qualified".</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Excellent point. But it then begs the question of why the MCAT/GPA threshold bar is set higher for whites and asians.

    And if we assume that what WaitingImpatiently says is true, (and I'm not saying that it isn't), then the least the UC's should do is let it be known via their websites or MSAR manual that if you're white/asian you need to have stats substantially higher than the averages that they post. This would save many people a lot of money. And I say this for the UC's because they are state subsidized.

    I think we're getting a bit off point here though. I think the point of the website that the OP references is that the UC's are breaking the law by using raced based preferences.
     
  20. toobsllik

    toobsllik Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by jrucb:
    <strong>Hey Everyone,

    The HRSA recently published an annual report, in which statistical data indicated that Minority Americans are five times more likely to treat other under-represented minorities in
    underserved areas.
    </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">An important question to ask is this: Did these students voluntarily choose to work in these areas or were they basically "forced" to because they could not compete for positions at more competitive hospitals? Specifically, do these individuals really have a desire to work in these areas or have lower board scores and GPAs relegated them to these less desirable areas?
    Would white and Asian students with low MCATs and GPAs be forced into similar circumstances? We don't know, of course, because generally we don't admit white and Asian students with low stats.
     
  21. Jedi In Training

    Jedi In Training Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Procrastinator:
    <strong>While that is probably true, I would like to see socioeconomic data and cross reference that with the minority data.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Would an article from the New England Journal of Medicine interest you?

    N Engl J Med. 1996 May 16;334(20):1327-8.

    The role of black and Hispanic physicians in providing health care for underserved populations.
    Komaromy M, Grumbach K, Drake M, Vranizan K, Lurie N, Keane D, Bindman AB.

    Division of General Internal Medicine, University of California, San Francisco 94143-1364, USA.

    BACKGROUND. Patients who are members of minority groups may be more likely than others to consult physicians of the same race or ethnic group, but little is known about the relation between patients' race or ethnic group and the supply of physicians or the likelihood that minority-group physicians will care for poor or black and Hispanic patients. METHODS. We analyzed data on physicians' practice locations and the racial and ethnic makeup and socioeconomic status of communities in California in 1990. We also surveyed 718 primary care physicians from 51 California communities in 1993 to examine the relation between the physicians' race or ethnic group and the characteristics of the patients they served. RESULTS. Communities with high proportions of black and Hispanic residents were four times as likely as others to have a shortage of physicians, regardless of community income. Black physicians practiced in areas where the percentage of black residents was nearly five times as high, on average, as in areas where other physicians practiced. Hispanic physicians practiced in areas where the percentage of Hispanic residents was twice as high as in areas where other physicians practiced. After we controlled for the racial and ethnic makeup of the community, black physicians cared for significantly more black patients {absolute difference, 25 percentage points; P &lt; 0.001} and Hispanic physicians for significantly more Hispanic patients {absolute difference, 21 percentage points; P &lt; 0.001} than did other physicians. Black physicians cared for more patients covered by Medicaid {P = 0.001} and Hispanic physicians for more uninsured patients {P = 0.03} than did other physicians. CONCLUSIONS. Black and Hispanic physicians have a unique and important role in caring for poor, black, and Hispanic patients in California. Dismantling affirmative-action programs as is currently proposed, may threaten health care for both poor people and members of minority groups.
     
  22. matthew0126

    matthew0126 Anaheim Angels
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    i agree with homer. okay, you want to give preference to u.r.m.'s, go ahead. but put it in the application pamphlet then. let us poor white/asian folk know that we better damn well have super-high stats
     
  23. spicoli

    spicoli Member
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    Question: How many URM physicians do you see when you work/pay a hospital visit?

    Think about it. Diversity is one of our most precious resources. If we are going to elimnate the racial disparities in the medical profession, then there need to be more URM role models for corresponding children in their neighborhoods.

    Think about this too: The most valuable knowledge that you will gain in medical school isn't the memorization. Rather, it is what you learn from classmates. By diversifying perspectives, you eliminate the one-facet physician and bring a more receptive and malleable model into light.

    In the end, you will earn what you deserve.
     

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