Alliant or Loma Linda?

[coyotewm]

My son has been accepted to Alliant in SF and Loma Linda for psychology PhD programs and is struggling to decide which if either to go to. His concerns have to do with the quality of the programs, their reputations, cost, and cultures.

What do you recommend and why?

Thanks in advance.

Concerned Dad (who will be paying the bills)

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[notdeadyet]

Concerned Dad-

This forum is for Psychiatry, a field that is pursued by physicians after completing medical school. You would probably get more relevant information by posting this in the Clinical Psychology forum, which is frequented by psychologists and PhD candidates in the field of psychology.

Though the fields have some overlap, the training is very different and psychiatrists will have only second hand knowledge of psychology training programs (and vice versa).

And student loans with good interest rates exist for your son to pay his own way, if he's so inclined...

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Moved to Clinical Psychology forum.

 

[erg923]

Might wanna search the board for the Alliant threads...there are a lot of heated ones.

Loma Linda I'm not sure about. Again, I would do a search. What is their support package like? Since its a university based program, I would think there is a stipend and some, (if not complete) tuition remission, no?

 

[docma]

to the OP: Paying outright for a child's graduate school can be a slippery slope of extended dependence so you will do both of you a favor if you study carefully together what a repayment plan (to you and or with loans) looks like. Graduate school debt for a psychology degree is not necessarily a good return on investment these days, no matter who pays--so it is important to know that before committing. It can be a good investment in non-economic terms (knowledge, satisfaction, social contribution)...but you and your son need to know the facts (and opinions which are many on this board) in advance. It concerns me somewhat that you are the one doing the research, not your son.

That said, Loma Linda is an Adventist university (though not religious in it's curriculum) and since there is a large network of Adventist health care systems, there could be some advantages to that link, especially if looking for work nationally. It is also a smaller program I think than most Alliant programs, and smaller programs often provide much better mentoring. You definitely want to do your research if there is no offer of funding from Loma Linda.

 

[aequitasveritas]

Alliant San Diego and San Francisco PhD programs are much better than the other campuses or programs at Alliant(s).

That being said, in no way is that worth the cost of $950/credit hour at 148 credits. Do the math. If you are wealthy and this is not a concern of yours, perhaps it is worth it, except for the entitlement your son will suffer from if you pay for him.

Bottom line, if he can't get into a funded or partially funded program he needs to do something else.

 

[aequitasveritas]

BTW

Alliant Psychology Doctorate credit hours are now going for $1010.00!

Yup.

the PhD costs 148 credits...$149,480.00 for your child's tuition alone.

Have fun.

 

[KayJay85]

BTW

Alliant Psychology Doctorate credit hours are now going for $1010.00!

Yup.

the PhD costs 148 credits...$149,480.00 for your child's tuition alone.

Have fun.

I know that language has been an issue on this forum lately, but I have to say this: ANYONE who accumulates 150K in debt for a degree that pays 65-70K on average (probably worse for Alliant grads) is a damned fool.

I don't care if they are young and vulnerable or don't understand the enormity of loans. It is common sense to think about how much your degree will cost versus what you are likely to earn. If someone cannot think critically enough to grasp this then they should not be studying for a doctorate.

 

[cara susanna]

Holy cow.

 

[PsychBoxe]

A little harsh, KayJay85. I go to a private university that is quite expensive (not any diploma mills discussed on this site), and the debt factor is something I am cognizant of. There are several national programs out there that make such debt manageable to pay off, and it seems as if you haven't done your research into these particular programs. I understand that some students are naive when they see the title of "Dr." as a possibility for them, but don't group those unprepared students with a lot of us who go to programs without generous funding. Would it be nice if my dream school part partial or full tuition? Hell yes. Do they? No. Will I have an excellent degree and excellent employment opportunities from this school after my graduation? Yes, I will. KayJay85, I understand you are trying to warn people not to invest in diploma mill schools, but not all unfunded schools are inadequate centers of training.

 

[KayJay85]

A little harsh, KayJay85. I go to a private university that is quite expensive (not any diploma mills discussed on this site), and the debt factor is something I am cognizant of. There are several national programs out there that make such debt manageable to pay off, and it seems as if you haven't done your research into these particular programs. I understand that some students are naive when they see the title of "Dr." as a possibility for them, but don't group those unprepared students with a lot of us who go to programs without generous funding. Would it be nice if my dream school part partial or full tuition? Hell yes. Do they? No. Will I have an excellent degree and excellent employment opportunities from this school after my graduation? Yes, I will. KayJay85, I understand you are trying to warn people not to invest in diploma mill schools, but not all unfunded schools are inadequate centers of training.

Harsh? Yes. Wrong? No.

Hinging ones financial future on government programs that may or may not be in existence over the 30+ years of your repayment term is not smart. I never said anything about all unfunded schools being inadequate. I am talking just dollars and cents at the moment. Now that I looked at it again, according to aequitasveritas's post, that is 150K just for tuition. That means that once cost of living loans are factored in at let's say 40K per year, that is 310K for 4 years. Since so many Alliant students fail to match each year, it is more likely to take 5-6 years to complete their studies, so really it is almost 400K! 400K in debt to fight with LCSWs and MFTs for jobs that pay 60K on the high end. THAT IS RIDICULOUS. Sorry, but I am livid with these numbers.

 

[PsychBoxe]

I agree, those figures for that institution are unreal. I don't really see some of these national repayment programs going out of existence any time soon (call me an informed optimist), but it still is important not to put all of your faith in them. I do agree that stretching out loans for 30 years in extremely unwise, and it is unfortunate that some students are so oblivious to the schools they apply to. However, if one pursues a doctoral degree in psychology and is properly trained and prepared, it does not make sense as to why they would be competing against LCSWs and MFTs for jobs. Assessment, research, and supervision should be core areas of any doctoral education, not MA level education. I see it as the fault of the student if they do not seek out proper institutions or opportunities that foster these areas that distinguish PsyD/PhD and LCSW/MFT individuals.

 

[aequitasveritas]

I agree, those figures for that institution are unreal. I don't really see some of these national repayment programs going out of existence any time soon (call me an informed optimist), but it still is important not to put all of your faith in them. I do agree that stretching out loans for 30 years in extremely unwise, and it is unfortunate that some students are so oblivious to the schools they apply to. However, if one pursues a doctoral degree in psychology and is properly trained and prepared, it does not make sense as to why they would be competing against LCSWs and MFTs for jobs. Assessment, research, and supervision should be core areas of any doctoral education, not MA level education. I see it as the fault of the student if they do not seek out proper institutions or opportunities that foster these areas that distinguish PsyD/PhD and LCSW/MFT individuals.

You should check out some of the other threads on this issues where we discuss the social ethics of these student loan programs etc.
It really isnt a great idea to depend on a govnmt program nor is it ethical to loaf off student loans to the tax payers.

Btw,as evidence that you WILL be competing with LCSWs and MFTs: I am already in private practice with a full case load. I have only a masters and I am competition wth doctors. There are many MFts and LSCWs in the community who charge just as much as doctors (they cant charge insurance though) and guess what: psychological testing is few and far in between. Testing is not a bread and butter income source unless you gain a reputation for it and specialize. Oh, and good luck trying to make it in testing in general. You'll have to fight like hell to get insurances to pay you and people who can pay enough out of pocket are rare.

I really think you're just using denial to try to make yourself feel better about taking out so many loans. I've been there before as well; I am a jumbo loan idiot to boot. However, I have enough integrity to caution others to avoid my mistakes.

In reality, there are only a handful of schools that justify the term "diploma mill." Argosy, Fielding, and some new sprouting pro schools. Alliant PhDs actually provide a great education...Psy.Ds not so much, yet that is no argument for the loan principle.

 

[PsychBoxe]

"I really think you're just using denial to try to make yourself feel better about taking out so many loans. I've been there before as well; I am a jumbo loan idiot to boot. However, I have enough integrity to caution others to avoid my mistakes."

I agree that no one should depend on the government or taxpayers to repay loans for anyone, but it is a valid option for those working in underserved areas. I please ask you to abstain from making comments about anyone's character on an open forum like this, it really isn't professional or reflective of qualities one wants to see from an individual in this field. In my previous post, I was not addressing "testing", but assessment ( I assume you know the difference). I never mentioned someone using assessment as a sole purpose of income, just as an added skill in the toolkit of a PsyD/Phd. I believe I have integrity to support the education and path I desire, and although I would rather go through a route debt free, some options aren't always available. For the record, I am FULLY aware of the debt I am undertaking, and I simply trying to highlight an understated opinion. College loans suck, but there are ways to pay them back if you do research. Maybe we can just agree to disagree?

 

[aequitasveritas]

I please ask you to abstain from making comments about anyone's character on an open forum like this, it really isn't professional or reflective of qualities one wants to see from an individual in this field.

...give me a break. This is anonymous & it's not a place to pull punches. Btw, I stand by my assertion that it is disingenuous to try telling people that the simple mathematics of the debt to earning potential somehow don't apply to you because, oh, you went to such a great school that it's worth it. You're trying to defend yourself from financial anxiety, that is all.

In my previous post, I was not addressing "testing", but assessment ( I assume you know the difference).

...snarky. of course, and unlike you, I actually know what it's like to do it for a living in private practice.

I never mentioned someone using assessment as a sole purpose of income, just as an added skill in the toolkit of a PsyD/Phd. I believe I have integrity to support the education and path I desire, and although I would rather go through a route debt free, some options aren't always available. For the record, I am FULLY aware of the debt I am undertaking, and I simply trying to highlight an understated opinion. College loans suck, but there are ways to pay them back if you do research. Maybe we can just agree to disagree?

...sure

 

[PsychBoxe]

You are so wise.

 

[aequitasveritas]

You are so wise.

actually, the point of my message is that I am not wise...I took on way too many loans and had naive aspirations. I even went through the phase you're in: defending my university and trying to make a case that I'm somehow the exception.

 

[PsychBoxe]

In all seriousness, I truly appreciate your honesty in describing the financial reality of student loans. I did not intend to embody some of the accusations you previously made. I am not in denial, I am fully aware of my current and future position. If anything, I am vigilant in researching options for my financial future. In no way do I recommend taking on the type of debt that you assessed for Alliant's doctoral programs. I do recommend someone following their educational and professional pursuits if they have done their research regarding loan repayment, internship placements, and career options. I understand you are only trying to help, but not everyone is "naive" in this process.

 

[aequitasveritas]

I agree; not everybody is naive...although I could say that if we used debt load as a criterion for "Naivete" then I would say that by definition anyone in my position, or yours, is or has been naive.

But I think we've understood eachother. All good.