Alliant University - Fresno Campus

[jojobean]

Hi,

I recently went to the interview at Alliant in Fresno for their PsyD program in Clinical Psychology. The faculty members that I met seemed very knowledgable and a few have similar research interest with me, which I thought was a good thing. It is small campus and everyone seems to know one another very well. The program is also APA credited.

Is there anyone who is a current student or alumni at Alliant in Fresno? I really would love to hear about your experience there academically, socially, etc. Any opinions on the program and faculty?

Thanks!

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[WisNeuro]

Oh my, no no no. Run away!

APPIC Match rate = 44%
EPPP Pass rate = 53%

These figures are in the basement relative to pretty much any program in this country. You will have a hard time getting a non CAPIC internship and subsequent fellowship. Setting yourself up for a long, hard, slog career-wise. Not too mention you will be amassing some debt while you are there.

 

[PsychBiker]

Are those the rates just from the prior year or averaged? I recall that that specific program was on APA probation (though now accredited) which helps explain the APPIC rate. However, I cant speak for the EPPP rate.

 

[WisNeuro]

Averaged, which is a much better indicator. Although, even if you do look at more recent cohorts, the numbers generally hang around the 50% mark.

 

[PsychBiker]

Oh my, no no no. Run away!

APPIC Match rate = 44%
EPPP Pass rate = 53%

These figures are in the basement relative to pretty much any program in this country. You will have a hard time getting a non CAPIC internship and subsequent fellowship. Setting yourself up for a long, hard, slog career-wise. Not too mention you will be amassing some debt while you are there.

Unless I miscalculated, their APPIC rate is ~90% for the last 6 years.

http://www.alliant.edu/documents/cspp/domain-g/fresnopsyddomaingv2.pdf

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

APPIC member match rate is not a very useful indicator, as many/most programs require their students to go through the match system, with a good portion of those programs requiring an APA-acred. internship to graduate.

 

[WisNeuro]

Unless I miscalculated, their APPIC rate is ~90% for the last 6 years.

http://www.alliant.edu/documents/cspp/domain-g/fresnopsyddomaingv2.pdf

Take a closer look to see how many matched to APA Accredited internships.
31% and 14% the last 2 years.

 

[PsychBiker]

Take a closer look to see how many matched to APA Accredited internships.
31% and 14% the last 2 years.

Yes, but on the AAPI you have to note if your program is on probation. In the years prior to probation, it looks like APA match rates are in the 60s and a low 70, but 60% is the current overall reported APA match rate (as reported by the APA). Though, the best way to know how the program is doing now is to see how they do in this current match.

https://www.apa.org/apags/resources/appic.aspx

 

[WisNeuro]

Just a reminder, a match rate in the 60's is still a terrible match rate. And that's pretty much their high. Also doesn't excuse those EPPP rates.

Seriously, these applications barely receive glances by most committees.

 

[PsychBiker]

Just a reminder, a match rate in the 60's is still a terrible match rate. And that's pretty much their high. Also doesn't excuse those EPPP rates.

Seriously, these applications barely receive glances by most committees.

Just to remind you, the APA reports that 60% is the 2013 match rate for ALL students who applied from all schools.

https://www.apa.org/apags/resources/appic.aspx

So with only ~2500 out of 4000 (60%) sites being APA accredited, how do you expect any school to get above a 60% APA match rate (on average)?

 

[cara susanna]

Well, a lot of programs have an APA match rate above 60%. My program's is above that and we've had some bad years.

http://www.unc.edu/~mjp1970/Internship Outcomes.pdf

Keep in mind that the national average is dragged down by several schools that have absolutely abysmal match rates (or that's what Mike Parent's article found, anyway).

 

[WisNeuro]

Just to remind you, the APA reports that 60% is the 2013 match rate for ALL students who applied from all schools.

https://www.apa.org/apags/resources/appic.aspx

So with only ~2500 out of 4000 (60%) sites being APA accredited, how do you expect any school to get above a 60% APA match rate (on average)?

Most of the reputable schools seem to make do with match rates of 85%+ It's the diploma mills which drag the rates down, this is not a normal distribution, simple stats. Look at the skew.

 

[PsychBiker]

Most of the reputable schools seem to make do with match rates of 85%+ It's the diploma mills which drag the rates down, this is not a normal distribution, simple stats. Look at the skew.

I realize this, but then being in 60s and 70s for a "diploma mill" is not terrible though.

In any case, this debate can be, and has been, dragged around for years. I do hope that these schools clean up their act. However, even if all these professional school's training were on the level with somewhere like Rutgers, there would still be a deficit to the numbers of possible APA spots to the number of applicants.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think if we polled training directors, you would find that a rate in the 60's is indeed terrible, especially when you consider the bimodal distribution of match rates in programs.

 

[Ollie123]

True that there is a deficit no matter what. Even forgetting the fact that distributions are wildly off...a PEAK of average is not exactly something to take pride in.

But if those schools were CLOSED (or enrollment reduced to a level that is on par with other programs though likely not a sustainable business model for them), the ratio would not be perfect but vastly improved. Been awhile since I ran the number but I think if Argosy and Alliant went bankrupt that would be a huge boon for the field as a whole.

 

[PsychBiker]

It's hard to say... would a yearly cutting of 500 people (gross estimate) from the field make the match rates better? Yes, probably. But then there are 500 less spots for people to become Psychologists. Yes, some could become Master level clinicians, but who is to say these students do not have the intelligence, motivation, and ability to be Clinical Psychologists? While California is saturated with therapists, there are plenty of rural areas in the US who are lacking Psychologists.

Is a bad doctor better than no doctor at all? Some say no, some say yes. There are so many directions that this debate could take. So many variables that could be discussed...

Taking an action oriented approach here, what can we do to better the future for new Psychologists? Do we tell this individual that this school is awful and thereby help him/her avoid going there? What if this individual lives in Fresno and has no other local choices? What if this is his/hers only viable choice? Are we then really helping this person?

 

[cara susanna]

Being geographically restricted is a huge problem for anyone who wants to go into psychology. If someone wants to be a psychologist but can only stay in Fresno, I'd probably suggest that they explore alternate career paths.

Also, yes, the rural areas do need psychologists. But most of the graduates from these professional schools do not end up in those areas.

 

[WisNeuro]

Taking an action oriented approach here, what can we do to better the future for new Psychologists? Do we tell this individual that this school is awful and thereby help him/her avoid going there? What if this individual lives in Fresno and has no other local choices? What if this is his/hers only viable choice? Are we then really helping this person?

I really want to be a professional pitcher in MLB. Sadly, I cannot throw a baseball 90+MPH. Certain professions are difficult, and they should be that way. I want my doctors to meet a minimum level of training. I don't want the physician who couldn't cut it at a good school and went to one of the Caribbean schools because requirements were easier.

I have nothing against lower level providers (e.g., social workers, masters levels) providing some level of mental health care. I do have a problem with some schools giving out doctorates like candy after poorly training people to do high level clinical work. Yes, a bad doctor is worse than no doctor.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

What if this individual lives in Fresno and has no other local choices? What if this is his/hers only viable choice? Are we then really helping this person?

That person can also choose to forego becoming a clinical psychologist because it is not an option at the given time. There are hundreds/thousands of possible applicants who may want to pursue training as a psychologist, but for a myriad of reasons (e.g. geographic restriction, family obligations, grades, aptitude, etc) cannot pursue that path.

The skewed distribution of providers is a known issue for all of healthcare. The impetus behind many of the re-payment programs in healthcare include trying to get people to underserved areas.

As for a bad doctor v. no doctor….I'd vote no doctor 100 out of 100 times because it isn't a zero sum situation. There are mid-level providers who can fill much of the need that would provide a net benefit compared to a poorly trained doctor (whether they be a physician, psychologist, optometrist, etc).

 

[jojobean]

Wow. I really thank everyone for responding to this post. Although I hesitated to initially to create a new post about my interest to attend Alliant because I notice a huge anti-professional school that many members have. I do understand the reasons.

I have geographical restrictions, which leads me to Alliant in Fresno. I have been trained in 2 other master's program (psychoanalysis and general psychology) before having to move here permanently. The educational path I took was heading towards a doctorate degree in Clinical Psychology. But life change, so now I am here. I have looked at many other phd and psyd programs across California. I spoke to several of them but there was no way I could commute since this is a full time program with many hours of training involved. Moving is not an option either.

Honestly, I really do hope they accept me. I am excited to work towards my goal. I know Alliant does not have good reputation but I was encouraged when I met the faculty members of the program. I like the small community type of environment. The APA was recently reaccredited late last year for the program.

If there is any members here with experience at Alliant here in fresno, I'd really appreciate hearing about your experience and honest views about the program, faculty and school.

 

[erg923]

So one or two testimonials from members of this program (internet strangers, actually) that say it's "fine" will negate the multitudes of objective, quantifiable, large N outcome data that you have received/reviewed thus far? Am I understanding correctly?

 

[WisNeuro]

So one or two testimonials from members of this program that say it's "fine" will negate the multitudes of objective, quantifiable outcome data that you have received thus far? Am I understanding correctly?

Seconded. Remember, the recent lawsuit on Argosy has opened up the door on some of these schools. It will likely only get worse for schools with bad outcomes data, and many of us welcome that and actively work toward it.

 

[cara susanna]

. I spoke to several of them but there was no way I could commute since this is a full time program with many hours of training involved. Moving is not an option either.

Again, this is a bad field to be in if you are geographically restricted. You will likely have to move for internship, post-doc, and/or jobs since it is very difficult to get any of those in the non-rural parts of California.

 

[erg923]

I am sorry or see you are stuck in Fresno. But, actually, the good news, is you're not. With your doctorate you will be traveling to your internship location, again for a post-doc, and then again for a job. Have you researched the practice market in Fresno? Jobs just don't come flying at your nose once you have that degree, ya know.

 

[jojobean]

Thank you for feeling bad for me. But I am totally stuck in Fresno. I will be fine work-wise. As stated, I really would appreciate hearing from people who have experience in Alliant Fresno.

 

[jojobean]

So one or two testimonials from members of this program (internet strangers, actually) that say it's "fine" will negate the multitudes of objective, quantifiable, large N outcome data that you have received/reviewed thus far? Am I understanding correctly?

Actually, no. All I would like is to hear the experience of those having attended the school I am trying to get into.

 

[erg923]

Thank you for feeling bad for me. But I am totally stuck in Fresno. I will be fine work-wise.

Do you think this geographical restriction in a field where relocation is NECESSARY (its not really optional), combined with a program with a poor reputation, plus 150k in student loans = good idea?

What does "fine work-wise mean" and how could you POSSIBLE know that before even starting grad school and being 6-7 years removed from entering the market?

 

[erg923]

Taking an action oriented approach here, what can we do to better the future for new Psychologists? Do we tell this individual that this school is awful and thereby help him/her avoid going there? What if this individual lives in Fresno and has no other local choices? What if this is his/hers only viable choice? Are we then really helping this person?

To better the future, you insure highest quality product. This is done on the front end, as it is in EVERY other field an in EVERY job in the market.

For goodness sake Psychbiker, trophies for everyone? Its not HIS choice at all. The "choice" is that they apply and some make the cut and others dont. If he doent make the cut, then his choice is to adjust his career aspirations/goals accordingly. We aren't banishing people from the entire mental health service field/industry!

 

[PsychBiker]

To better the future, you insure high quality product. This is done on the front end, as it is in EVERY other field an in EVERY job in the market.

For goodness sake Psychbiker, trophies for everyone? Its NOT his choice at all. The "choice" is that they apply and some make the cut and others dont. This is how the world works. If he doent make the cut, then his choice is to adjust his carerr aspirations/goals accordingly.

I agree with you erg. In some ways, I am advocating the other side's position to perpetuate discussion. No, not everyone who wants to be a Psychologist should be. In fact, I have met graduate students (and even Psychologists!) who should not be Psychologists. Our generation has become (ironically) one that believes anyone can be anything they want to. Not only can they be anything, they deserve it! So erg, I want my damn trophy!

It is sad that the APA's program accreditation is no longer the gold standard - program evaluations have become even more of a numbers game. If my opinion matters at all, I do give credit to people like jojo who at least research their program before starting it.

 

[PsychBiker]

Actually, no. All I would like is to hear the experience of those having attended the school I am trying to get into.

Jojo, check your private messages. If you didn't get one, message me please.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

...It is sad that the APA's program accreditation is no longer the gold standard - program evaluations have become even more of a numbers game. If my opinion matters at all, I do give credit to people like jojo who at least research their program before starting it.

Not to be argumentative at all, but APA accreditation was never actually meant to be the gold standard, at least not initially. Rather, it was more of a set of minimum standards that all programs should not only meet, but ideally exceed. Unfortunately, that's not currently the case.

As for Alliant-Fresno, I have no personal experience with the program. What I can say is that I'd be worried by the recent trend over the past few years of their significant decline in APA match rates.

 

[bcliff]

I agree with you erg. In some ways, I am advocating the other side's position to perpetuate discussion. No, not everyone who wants to be a Psychologist should be. In fact, I have met graduate students (and even Psychologists!) who should not be Psychologists. Our generation has become (ironically) one that believes anyone can be anything they want to. Not only can they be anything, they deserve it! So erg, I want my damn trophy!

It is sad that the APA's program accreditation is no longer the gold standard - program evaluations have become even more of a numbers game. If my opinion matters at all, I do give credit to people like jojo who at least research their program before starting it.

I think what's sad is that APA accreditation actually has become something other than a bare minimum (which - as I understand it - is how it was originally intended to work).

Here's a link for an MSW program in Fresno (Correct me if I'm wrong, but you should be eligible for licensure as an LCSW w/ this degree after completing all your supervision requirements post-grad)
http://www.fresnostate.edu/chhs/social-work/

 

[WisNeuro]

I think what's sad is that APA accreditation actually has become something other than a bare minimum (which - as I understand it - is how it was originally intended to work).

Here's a link for an MSW program in Fresno (Correct me if I'm wrong, but you should be eligible for licensure as an LCSW w/ this degree after completing all your supervision requirements post-grad)
http://www.fresnostate.edu/chhs/social-work/

Briarcliff is pointing you to a very good alternative. If, as you say, you are stuck in Fresno and want to practice mental health, go for the LCSW. It's much better to be a well-trained LCSW than a very poorly trained PsyD with a buttload of debt from grad school. You will get more respect, and not be paying off loans for 20 years after you finish.

 

[jojobean]

If my opinion matters at all, I do give credit to people like jojo who at least research their program before starting it.

Thanks for that.

 

[jojobean]

Here's a link for an MSW program in Fresno (Correct me if I'm wrong, but you should be eligible for licensure as an LCSW w/ this degree after completing all your supervision requirements post-grad)
http://www.fresnostate.edu/chhs/social-work/

Thanks for the suggestion.