Am I hopeless for OMFS?

[d4nyudds]

So to begin, I hadn't ever really thought about applying to any specialty, but recently thought I might really want to try for an OMFS residency. That said, I can be totally content in general dentistry but wanted some advice from those of you who came before me. Currently in my 4th year, my grades are ~3.3 ish, I really don't know what my class rank is, but my NDBE part I was only 81 (took it last summer). I'm applying to some GPR's anyway, so my thought was, "why not apply to a few OMFS programs too, the worst that can happen is I don't get a spot anywhere."

Do people with these kind of numbers ever get into something so competitive like OMFS? I have some research experience including two abstract presentations (IADR and ADEA), and am in an honors program. What other kinds of things might I do to strengthen my resume and improve what chance I have? Would an internship help out? Would I need to re-take part I? Which programs might I be better off looking at. These are things I really don't know, so I would appreciate some honest feedback or advice. Sorry if I sound ignorant

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[ItsGavinC]

You won't get in with scores like that.

 

[d4nyudds]

You won't get in with scores like that.

Thanks for your honesty. Do you have any suggestions? Would it help if I retook Part 1 for a better score? Or alternatively, if I simply wanted to increase my exposure to OMFS, would I be able to apply for an internship anywhere? Thanks again.

 

[aphistis]

An internship would certainly help, but you'll have to retake NBDE I for sure.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Thanks for your honesty. Do you have any suggestions? Would it help if I retook Part 1 for a better score? Or alternatively, if I simply wanted to increase my exposure to OMFS, would I be able to apply for an internship anywhere? Thanks again.

I agree with the above poster. Internships to gain experience and show you are serious, and retaking NBDE I to get a higher score. That isn't to say you wouldn't make an excellent surgeon, but you won't get a shot at interviewing due to your low part I score.

 

[shabu2]

+1 with the guys. You have to retake NBDE. Most programs will look at a few things, usually in this order.

1. NDBE Part I
2. Class rank
3. GPA where applicable
4. LOR
5. Externships
6. EC

(note: undergrad GPA will matter for some med schools)

Internships help, but even these days, intern spots are highly competitive and require applications.

Retake Part I

 

[2thguy82]

1. NDBE Part I
2. Class rank
3. GPA where applicable
4. LOR
5. Externships
6. EC

I agree and disagree with that....

Of course the beginning you're right on, but I think good internship/externship experiences can have a larger impact than that list would show. Doing time at a program can let them meet you, and sometimes help you gain edge there, if not elsewhere.

Interns are known for matching at a higher rate than non-interns with the same stats. Also, many interns who get in didn't have the numbers they needed in the first place, but then got in with the increased experience.

Food for thought....

 

[d4nyudds]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I really appreciate the information. I am also wondering two more things if I may be so bold as to continue asking:

1- In order to make an application to an internship, would I need to retake part I prior to applying to be competitive for an internship? Or would i be able to apply and be able to find one for me and then work on the Part 1 scores before applying to an actual residency. That way it seems like I'd be able to get a good experience of what a residency would be like and be able to make a better decision regarding an application to one. As I said earlier, I really like general dentistry also, I just have a particular interest in OMFS.

2- Is there a comprehensive list of internship opportunities out there? If so where can i find it? If not, how does one discover where internship opportunities are? Assuming they don't use Pass/Match system for these spots, correct? It seems as though not all of the OMFS residencies have intern spots. Similarly, I have heard of internships that are not affiliated with any residency. Any ideas?

Thanks again so much to all who have commented. I really do appreciate the advice.

PS- if i do retake NBDE part 1, what kind of scores does one need to get noticed and have an interview opportunity (I'm assuming a 90 or better)

 

[crazy_sherm]

1- In order to make an application to an internship, would I need to retake part I prior to applying to be competitive for an internship? Or would i be able to apply and be able to find one for me and then work on the Part 1 scores before applying to an actual residency. That way it seems like I'd be able to get a good experience of what a residency would be like and be able to make a better decision regarding an application to one. As I said earlier, I really like general dentistry also, I just have a particular interest in OMFS.

One of the problems with the timing of applications is that you'll probably need to apply for OMFS before or during the first month of your internship, so you won't really have time to study for it and take it during the internship. Plus, as an intern, you're basically a 1st year resident, so you won't have much time to take a crap, much less study. If you want more exposure to oral surgery, you should be doing externships during your breaks while in dental school.

 

[blaska999]

+1 with the guys. You have to retake NBDE. Most programs will look at a few things, usually in this order.

1. NDBE Part I
2. Class rank
3. GPA where applicable
4. LOR
5. Externships
6. EC

(note: undergrad GPA will matter for some med schools)

Internships help, but even these days, intern spots are highly competitive and require applications.

Retake Part I

so you're basically implying that a weak applicant should retake the boards first and then worry about an internship later? ( because internships are supposedly a waste of time if your board scores are crap )

 

[Count Orlok]

so you're basically implying that a weak applicant should retake the boards first and then worry about an internship later? ( because internships are supposedly a waste of time if your board scores are crap )

Shabu is not saying that internships are a waste of time he is merely getting at the point that:
#1 - internships are getting much more competitive to get into so increasing board scores will help one actually get an internship, and
#2 - even if you get an internship it is only going to make up for so much on a lacking application (i.e. low board scores), so having the combo of an internship and higher board scores drastically increases the odds of matching into a program the next year

 

[2thguy82]

Shabu is not saying that internships are a waste of time he is merely getting at the point that:
#1 - internships are getting much more competitive to get into so increasing board scores will help one actually get an internship, and
#2 - even if you get an internship it is only going to make up for so much on a lacking application (i.e. low board scores), so having the combo of an internship and higher board scores drastically increases the odds of matching into a program the next year

I think you're right on this one, though with the weird stuff going on with the NBDE scoring right now, and with the scores actually going PASS/FAIL in two years, it's hard to know what that kind of experience will provide an application.

Same with board scores, who knows how they'll all be weighted when new vs. old applicants are compared, no less when applicants no longer have scores to compare to each other.

 

[Hysteria24]

The OP has roughly 1.5 years to retake before they go pass/fail in January of '08.

It will be interesting to see if people in this same situation in the future will be forced to go back and study/take a new "specialty" examination if residency programs choose to implement such a test in 2010.

 

[blankguy]

The OP has roughly 1.5 years to retake before they go pass/fail in January of '08.

It will be interesting to see if people in this same situation in the future will be forced to go back and study/take a new "specialty" examination if residency programs choose to implement such a test in 2010.

Don't you mean January of '10?

 

[d4nyudds]

Same with board scores, who knows how they'll all be weighted when new vs. old applicants are compared, no less when applicants no longer have scores to compare to each other.

Come to think of it, this is something that I am curious about as well. I had heard that since the new format of NBDE part I the national averages have fallen some, but some are saying that it fell like 2 points, while i've heard other's say it has fallen as much as 6 points. I'm not sure what that does to people evaluating PG candidates, especially in light of the impending switch to a Pass/Fail system, but does anyone know officially how much the new format changed the national average, if any at all, or where to find such information? That said, clearly by overwhelming majority If I really want to go for an OMFS residency, I should be re-studying part 1 material already

 

[2thguy82]

There does seem to be a trend towards lower scores on the new format of the NBDE. While some SDN posters argue it's garbage, there's no question the scores have dropped. However, there's really no way to know how much nationally, as it's not officially acknowledged....

At my school, I asked the registrar about it, she said the previous years school average was approximately 86, and the new format's average at our school is approximately 82. That's just at my school though, so it's one example.


The moral of the story is that it's going to be an interesting year or two of applicants with the new formatting, but no matter how you cut it, you should probably retake part I if you want to feel more secure. Everyone's heard plenty of stories of people with sub-par scores getting in, but if you want a better chance, get a better score.

If not, do some time in an internship, etc. and see what happens, but increasing your raw numbers can only help your application.

 

[dentdoc2005]

I would not call it hopeless. More difficult maybe. I would retake the boards as these score can keep your application from leaving the secretary's desk. I too had low board scores and retook it with an increase of 10 points to a 95. As far as the internship goes I say do it. I can only speak of personal experience but when I was a rising chief I pushed hard for the externs I wanted and got them. Where I trained the chief residents had a great deal of input. Good to get a known entity. Just my two cents worth. If it is really what you want and you will be good resident it will show during the externship. As they say sometimes this is where the rubber meets the road. Good luck.

 

[Hammertyme]

I have finished a PG res. and am working in the field, but now want OMFS.
NB P.I - 88...... will past experience offset the low score?
Any ideas on how the "non-traditional" app. fair?.... programs that are open to the non-traditional app.....
Should serious thought be given to an intern or retake the Part I and apply for 2010?

 

[2thguy82]

I have finished a PG res. and am working in the field, but now want OMFS.
NB P.I - 88...... will past experience offset the low score?
Any ideas on how the "non-traditional" app. fair?.... programs that are open to the non-traditional app.....
Should serious thought be given to an intern or retake the Part I and apply for 2010?

n As you can gather by reading the different forums on SDN, there are plenty of unique cases that can work out just fine for OMFS. An 88 on the old format of boards is good, but not great. If you retake, your score may drop though, so that needs be be considered before you study for them which is no small thing to do....the new format does not seem to be very kind.

An internship would prob help you, but might as well apply if you're interested. You can always just apply to a few, if you don't get in do the internship, then apply to a larger number.

-2th

 

[Hammertyme]

n As you can gather by reading the different forums on SDN, there are plenty of unique cases that can work out just fine for OMFS. An 88 on the old format of boards is good, but not great. If you retake, your score may drop though, so that needs be be considered before you study for them which is no small thing to do....the new format does not seem to be very kind.

An internship would prob help you, but might as well apply if you're interested. You can always just apply to a few, if you don't get in do the internship, then apply to a larger number.

-2th

thx for the feedback...
planning to apply - 8-10 prgms
hopefully my background exp. will set me apart...
if no luck - will look at internships

 

[servitup]

I would encourage you to apply to more like 20 programs. You are likely to receive interviews to 50% or so of the places you apply.

 

[toofache32]

I would encourage you to apply to more like 20 programs. You are likely to receive interviews to 50% or so of the places you apply.

I was thinking the same thing. The less competitive you are, the more programs you should apply to. I had 93 on NBDE part 1 (old format) and was in top 10% of class rank, did research, 4 externships....and I only got invited for interviews to half the places I applied.

 

[Hysteria24]

The OP has roughly 1.5 years to retake before they go pass/fail in January of '08.

It will be interesting to see if people in this same situation in the future will be forced to go back and study/take a new "specialty" examination if residency programs choose to implement such a test in 2010.

Don't you mean January of '10?

Yikes!!!

You are correct. I hate spreading false info so thanks for the quick fix.