Am I obligated to take call on nursing home patients?

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cbrons

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I am actually an internist but in a rural area. Just curious because the local nursing home seems to think they can just call me 24/7 about patients I’ve seen in the clinic and expect me to write these long-ass nursing orders for them. Pretty sure this was not in my contract and is actually the job of the nursing home medical director. Am I wrong about this?

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[notalawyer] What does your contract say? [/notalawyer]
 
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[notalawyer] What does your contract say? [/notalawyer]
My contract doesn’t have the word “nursing home” in it anywhere. There is not a single thing about me being responsible for any patient at any facility (other than the hospital). Just wondering if the reason the nursing home expects me to do this has more to do with rural tradition versus actual professional obligation.
 
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If that's true, then they shouldn't be calling you. Tell them as much.
 
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I am actually an internist but in a rural area. Just curious because the local nursing home seems to think they can just call me 24/7 about patients I’ve seen in the clinic and expect me to write these long-ass nursing orders for them. Pretty sure this was not in my contract and is actually the job of the nursing home medical director. Am I wrong about this?
I’m an md in a rural area. I treat patients at the nursing home. The admitting physician at the nursing home is the one responsible for the orders. The next time the nursing home calls you ask for who the admitting or attending physician is. We’ve had patients family’s call asking us to change orders when they are in a nursing home we don’t go to and it’s hard for them to understand we aren’t their doctors right now. Now our nursing home also has an assisted living side. On that side the patients live in their own apartments and are not under the nursing homes admission for the nursing home doctors and orders come through their primary care doctor. However I don’t write any nursing orders on that side but sometimes my nurses have to give clarifications on their Med lists.
 
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Unless you have coverage in your contract then no.

I’m also in a semi rural area. I thought I had to answer all these stupid requests for Tylenol orders or an extra boost for breakfast or I need a ua because Edna’s urine is cloudy or she seems a little off today or you need to sign these 20 pages of admit orders because the ortho sent them here after their hip replacement or good morning how u doing this fine 3 am. Just had to notify you that your patient you saw once fell and there were no injuries.

It took me about 2 years to realize there is someone who gets paid to deal with that crap and it ain’t me. Thanks for bringing back the good memories.:)

And yes they seemed shocked since they hadn’t had a new doc in town in 10 or so years and that’s the way it had always been done.
 
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Unless you have coverage in your contract then no.

I’m also in a semi rural area. I thought I had to answer all these stupid requests for Tylenol orders or an extra boost for breakfast or I need a ua because Edna’s urine is cloudy or she seems a little off today or you need to sign these 20 pages of admit orders because the ortho sent them here after their hip replacement or good morning how u doing this fine 3 am. Just had to notify you that your patient you saw once fell and there were no injuries.

It took me about 2 years to realize there is someone who gets paid to deal with that crap and it ain’t me. Thanks for bringing back the good memories.:)

And yes they seemed shocked since they hadn’t had a new doc in town in 10 or so years and that’s the way it had always been done.
Wow that sounds terrible. We used to have a saying back in residency: Be nice to the nurses because they can make your life suck, but don't be too nice or they will call you for everything and make your life suck.
 
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[notalawyer] What does your contract say? [/notalawyer]
BUMP

Looking for new perspectives.

I recently told the NH I won't be serving as a facility physician for them at all, because I have no contract with them.

My employer is not happy about this.

I checked with the lawyer who reviewed my contract twice on this issue, who says that there is stuff in my contract about seeing patients in the clinic and seeing them in the hospital. There is nothing about me being on-call for a local nursing home or taking on the liability of my patient's care in the nursing home after-hours.

The response from our admin is that "well any patient who has you as their PCP, you are expected to be their nursing home doctor" (AKA I have to write all their nursing home orders, I have to assume liability for their medical care in the facility, I have to be on-call for them 24/7 for those patient's needs). They say that is just how things have always been done in the community. That's because the elderly physicians here have given away free labor for decades. I feel no obligation to continue this practice.

To clarify, I work under a hybrid model. I do strictly outpatient primary care and some addiction medicine in a hospital-owned clinic for 3 weeks, then do 1 week of inpatient hospitalist work.

They are expecting me to serve as the NH physician on any patient I discharge from the hospital to the NH as well as any patient who sees me in the outpatient setting as their PCP who gets admitted to the nursing home. Meaning they send me 20 pages of orders to sign and call me anytime of day or night about the patient's care.

I have told the NH and admin I am willing to do this, but I will have to have a new contract with the NH and will need to be compensated for both the extra work and liability. They counter that I can just bill my notes as NH notes.

Also, this NH in question does have a facility physician of record that they pay to put down on paper. The physician in question has no clinical responsibilities because she is essentially retired.

***By the way, our outpatient clinic patients do not have the option of contacting their providers after hours. Their options are to wait for normal business hours or call 911/go to the nearest emergency room. Just writing that so no one thinks its standard for outpatients to have access to us 24/7.
 
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The response from our admin is that "well any patient who has you as their PCP, you are expected to be their nursing home doctor" (AKA I have to write all their nursing home orders, I have to assume liability for their medical care in the facility, I have to be on-call for them 24/7 for those patient's needs). They say that is just how things have always been done in the community. That's because the elderly physicians here have given away free labor for decades. I feel no obligation to continue this practice.

***By the way, our outpatient clinic patients do not have the option of contacting their providers after hours. Their options are to wait for normal business hours or call 911/go to the nearest emergency room. Just writing that so no one thinks its standard for outpatients to have access to us 24/7.

Are these actual SNFs, or assisted living/LTC? Typically, patients in SNFs do not leave to see physicians in the community, and are cared for by in-house physicians. Patients in assisted living/LTC do, however. My practice is on call for all of our patients regardless of where they live. Assisted living/LTC patients aren't treated any differently than patients living in their own home.

That being said, if you don't take after-hours calls for your patients who reside in their own home, you shouldn't be obligated to take after-hours call for patients in assisted living/LTC, either. Seems kinda ****ty to treat your patients that way, though, IMO. If I couldn't contact a doctor or their on-call person after hours, I'd find a new doctor. Aren't you being incentivized to try to prevent unnecessary ER visits? If not, you will be soon enough.
 
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Are these actual SNFs, or assisted living/LTC? Typically, patients in SNFs do not leave to see physicians in the community, and are cared for by in-house physicians. Patients in assisted living/LTC do, however. My practice is on call for all of our patients regardless of where they live. Assisted living/LTC patients aren't treated any differently than patients living in their own home.

That being said, if you don't take after-hours calls for your patients who reside in their own home, you shouldn't be obligated to take after-hours call for patients in assisted living/LTC, either. Seems kinda ****ty to treat your patients that way, though, IMO. If I couldn't contact a doctor or their on-call person after hours, I'd find a new doctor. Aren't you being incentivized to try to prevent unnecessary ER visits? If not, you will be soon enough.
I suppose it is a SNF? I'm not sure. Some patients are there for rehab for a few weeks, others are there for life.

Mind you, I am not in private practice. I am an employed physician. So I have a contract with the hospital and hospital-owned clinic outlining my responsibilities.
There is nothing about nursing home care anywhere in my contract.
I don't even know if my malpractice insurance would cover me were a patient in the nursing home to sue me for their (perceived) bad nursing home care.
 
I suppose it is a SNF? I'm not sure. Some patients are there for rehab for a few weeks, others are there for life.

Mind you, I am not in private practice. I am an employed physician. So I have a contract with the hospital and hospital-owned clinic outlining my responsibilities.
There is nothing about nursing home care anywhere in my contract.
I don't even know if my malpractice insurance would cover me were a patient in the nursing home to sue me for their (perceived) bad nursing home care.

If you're seeing the patients in your office, they probably aren't living in a SNF. It can be hard to tell the difference. I have some pretty decrepit patients in LTC who still manage to get to my office (with family's help).
 
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I suppose it is a SNF? I'm not sure. Some patients are there for rehab for a few weeks, others are there for life.

Mind you, I am not in private practice. I am an employed physician. So I have a contract with the hospital and hospital-owned clinic outlining my responsibilities.
There is nothing about nursing home care anywhere in my contract.
I don't even know if my malpractice insurance would cover me were a patient in the nursing home to sue me for their (perceived) bad nursing home care.
If the patient is in a nursing home you are not their doctor there is a nursing home doctor that needs to do that stuff that’s literally why he’s being paid, that’s like if your patient was admitted to a different hospital and they called you for admission orders..your employer is trying to exploit you so don’t let him
 
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They are expecting me to serve as the NH physician on any patient I discharge from the hospital to the NH as well as any patient who sees me in the outpatient setting as their PCP who gets admitted to the nursing home.
I just re-read your original post, and noted the above.

I don't see why you, as a hospitalist, would be expected to follow patients in a SNF after discharge. That's...bizarre.

Ditto, seeing somebody as an outpatient who gets admitted to a SNF. Once someone's in a SNF, the SNF typically assumes care. At least, that's how it's always worked in my practice.
 
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Thanks for the replies.

I have just been told by administration that I will need to continue nursing home responsibilities since that "standard" in our community. This is despite it not being in my contract.

I have told them that I will not being doing so, and have told them if they keep pushing, I can fire the rest of my NH patients and the facility can either use their retired medical director or find someone else.

Complicating matters is the fact that the head nursing home administrator is a member of our hospitals board of directors.

So I'm sure they will try some other way to bully me into doing it.
 
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I ran into the same problem 11 years ago when I joined my current practice. We are a private practice but my partners were 10+ years older than me and “that’s the way it’s always been done”.
Every week a big envelope of orders to sign for Tylenol, patient fell without injuries, patient declined PT today, etc. Not to mention their 20 page intake orders that require a signature on every page. All crap I don’t care about and don’t deal with for outpatients. All requirements for the nursing home so they can make money. I don’t volunteer my time so others can make money off me. Not to mention there is a nursing home doc getting paid to deal with that crap. I’d send the envelope back with a note to give to house doc.
There was a lot of pushback and griping from the local nursing homes but I held firm and after about a year the orders stopped coming. Now none of my partners do nursing home stuff. Didn’t hurt my practice at all and a lot less worthless paperwork.
If you are employed and it isn’t in your contract I wouldn’t even think of covering those patients.
 
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Haha. Just read through and saw that I also responded to this thread a year ago. You can see how much I hated it in the fact I replied twice....also good to see my memories are pretty consistent 😀
 
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OP, set some boundaries.
If you've fielded these calls or signed orders for any of these people in the NH, you have opened up a grey zone dr/pt relationship with this facility despite not be the facility contracted doctor of record.

Draft up a letter that is certified and have sent to NH leadership, maybe something like in spirit of timely squaring away the ducks in your house, you have 30 days. After that all orders, calls, request, etc will systematically be denied. If patients need your care, they will seek it out thru routine channels of clinic calls, clinic appointments, etc.

Get your walking shoes read and be prepared to put your resignation in for this job. Your are being taken advantage of. (I'm Psych not FM)
 
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If you've fielded these calls or signed orders for any of these people in the NH, you have opened up a grey zone dr/pt relationship with this facility despite not be the facility contracted doctor of record.
Yeah, it's been a long stressful week dealing with this.
Have a meeting with an attorney next week to figure out the best way to word the certified letter to the facility and the patients. Wondering if I need him to send a letter to the hospital to tell them to back off. The level of manipulation and lying is out of control. Unfortunately walking away from the contract would be too costly, and I don't really mind the other parts of the job.
 
Crazy! Worked in a NH as RN before becoming a doc and I did not see such thing. Patients admitted to the NH were under the care of the NH medical director.
 
Yeah, it's been a long stressful week dealing with this.
Have a meeting with an attorney next week to figure out the best way to word the certified letter to the facility and the patients. Wondering if I need him to send a letter to the hospital to tell them to back off. The level of manipulation and lying is out of control. Unfortunately walking away from the contract would be too costly, and I don't really mind the other parts of the job.
Updates?
 
Can someone tell me how I can find a NH job like this? I am up for putting my name on 100 places, get paid and have no responsibilities.
 
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I'd be concerned about liability. If the NH isn't on your malpractice policy, doesn't that make you extremely vulnerable?
Some insurance is very detail specific like that, others simply say for all services covered in that state. Really just depends.
 
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