AMA attack on chiropractors ( in the past)

[Chromium Surfer]

I am currently taking a course on alternative and complementary health and this week we read an article about the "Chiropractic's fight for survival". Article found here : http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/2011/06/mhst1-1106.html

Tldr: AMA targeted chiropractors and other health professions to establish their dominance. Used targeted campaigns that included state legislators and influencing media to aid their goals. Most professions didn't fight back and as a result lost significance. Chiropractic profession fought back, won an antirust lawsuit and is now established in the healthcare field.

What are people's thoughts on this?

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[idontwatchgreysanatomy]

Chiropractors aren't health professionals. They are scam artists.

 

[aprilfools]

Originally thought this was an Ask Me Anything for someone who had attacked a chiropractor in the past. It's too early.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I am currently taking a course on alternative and complementary health and this week we read an article about the "Chiropractic's fight for survival". Article found here : http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/2011/06/mhst1-1106.html

Tldr: AMA targeted chiropractors and other health professions to establish their dominance. Used targeted campaigns that included state legislators and influencing media to aid their goals. Most professions didn't fight back and as a result lost significance. Chiropractic profession fought back, won an antirust lawsuit and is now established in the healthcare field.

What are people's thoughts on this?

There are very few studies that show some effectiveness over placebo for chiropractic in certain conditions, but I'm not sure about their legitimacy. The majority of the ones I've seen show it to be akin to most of homeopathy--ineffective and expensive.

Just because they exploited our legal system to keep themselves afloat doesn't make them a legitimate healthcare profession.

Edited for grammar.

 

[TRPMinus]

I'll add my 2 cents. I definitely think most chiropractors go too far in their claims (and most sell "supplements" now too wtf) but I was helped by one in high school for some musculoskeletal issues related to sports. Some allopathic physicians failed to treat me effectively, btw. In the end, the chiropractor put me in a strengthening program that fixed my problems. Don't know how my doc missed that.

TLDR don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[YayPudding]

I used to go to a gym owned and managed by a chiropractor. After a few months he began trying to sell me herbal supplements that would magically help me lose weight (because thermodynamics is BS) and adjustments that would help my lifts.

I had to find a new gym after his business collapsed and I arrived one day to find the place gutted. Live and learn.

 

[KoalaT]

2 cents. Work in an orthopedic office that has been the top rated in Texas for decades. We see a lot of patients who come from chiropractors. Honestly, there are a lot of chiropractors who just flat out make stuff up and even tell their patients things that are down-right nonsense (Ex: chiropractors will tell back pain patients that they are "cracking their ribs back into place" and that their ribs come out of place where it meets the spine. Complete nonsense. They're just little air pocket sacks. It can provide relief by reducing tension but it will just return). On the other hand, there is some level of chiropractic care that can be good for very specific conditions. We do refer certain patients to a chiropractor for specific treatments. Typically, chronic back pain patients who have exhausted other options (Ex: a patient had a neck crick and pain. He'd exhausted everything from physical therapy, MRIs, nerve tests, etc. We could never figure out why he couldn't turn his neck. Finally, we sent him to a chiropractor and he made a full recovery and is fine to this day.) Almost never for anything else.

However, it seems to be that a good majority of it is shenanigans. Patients will go to a chiropractor for years on end when if they just went to the Orthopedic they would have had their problem fixed by like 4-6 weeks of physical therapy and some anti-inflammatories.

TL;DR
It can be legitimate in specific cases. However, it's best to go to an orthopedic and let them refer you to a chiropractor if they think you need it.

I also have 3 orthopedics in my immediately family, so I'm bias. However, this is my opinion from the clinic I worked at for a year.

 

[TRPMinus]

2 cents. Work in an orthopedic office that has been the top rated in Texas for decades. We see a lot of patients who come from chiropractors. Honestly, there are a lot of chiropractors who just flat out make stuff up and even tell their patients things that are down-right nonsense (Ex: chiropractors will tell back pain patients that they are "cracking their ribs back into place" and that their ribs come out of place where it meets the spine. Complete nonsense. They're just little air pocket sacks. It can provide relief by reducing tension but it will just return). On the other hand, there is some level of chiropractic care that can be good for very specific conditions. We do refer certain patients to a chiropractor for specific treatments. Typically, chronic back pain patients who have exhausted other options (Ex: a patient had a neck crick and pain. He'd exhausted everything from physical therapy, MRIs, nerve tests, etc. We could never figure out why he couldn't turn his neck. Finally, we sent him to a chiropractor and he made a full recovery and is fine to this day.) Almost never for anything else.

However, it seems to be that a good majority of it is shenanigans. Patients will go to a chiropractor for years on end when if they just went to the Orthopedic they would have had their problem fixed by like 4-6 weeks of physical therapy and some anti-inflammatories.

TL;DR
It can be legitimate in specific cases. However, it's best to go to an orthopedic and let them refer you to a chiropractor if they think you need it.

I also have 3 orthopedics in my immediately family, so I'm bias. However, this is my opinion from the clinic I worked at for a year.

Totally agree with this. Patients should be directed to real medical care first. Adjustments can cause some real damage if done on the wrong person or in the wrong way.

 

[DrCaffeinated]

This is historical, back before evidence-based medicine.

 

[idontwatchgreysanatomy]

2 cents. Work in an orthopedic office that has been the top rated in Texas for decades. We see a lot of patients who come from chiropractors. Honestly, there are a lot of chiropractors who just flat out make stuff up and even tell their patients things that are down-right nonsense (Ex: chiropractors will tell back pain patients that they are "cracking their ribs back into place" and that their ribs come out of place where it meets the spine. Complete nonsense. They're just little air pocket sacks. It can provide relief by reducing tension but it will just return). On the other hand, there is some level of chiropractic care that can be good for very specific conditions. We do refer certain patients to a chiropractor for specific treatments. Typically, chronic back pain patients who have exhausted other options (Ex: a patient had a neck crick and pain. He'd exhausted everything from physical therapy, MRIs, nerve tests, etc. We could never figure out why he couldn't turn his neck. Finally, we sent him to a chiropractor and he made a full recovery and is fine to this day.) Almost never for anything else.

However, it seems to be that a good majority of it is shenanigans. Patients will go to a chiropractor for years on end when if they just went to the Orthopedic they would have had their problem fixed by like 4-6 weeks of physical therapy and some anti-inflammatories.

TL;DR
It can be legitimate in specific cases. However, it's best to go to an orthopedic and let them refer you to a chiropractor if they think you need it.

I also have 3 orthopedics in my immediately family, so I'm bias. However, this is my opinion from the clinic I worked at for a year.

In what situations would someone be referred to a chiropractor, when a physical therapist is a better choice and is actually trained in evidence-based care?

 

[MediCane2006]

Originally thought this was an Ask Me Anything for someone who had attacked a chiropractor in the past. It's too early.

tbh that would be a pretty entertaining thread ....and in pre-allo nothing surprises me any more

 

[Goro]

I'll take them seriously when they can show me a subluxation.

I am currently taking a course on alternative and complementary health and this week we read an article about the "Chiropractic's fight for survival". Article found here : http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/2011/06/mhst1-1106.html

Tldr: AMA targeted chiropractors and other health professions to establish their dominance. Used targeted campaigns that included state legislators and influencing media to aid their goals. Most professions didn't fight back and as a result lost significance. Chiropractic profession fought back, won an antirust lawsuit and is now established in the healthcare field.

What are people's thoughts on this?

 

[idontwatchgreysanatomy]

For reference, chiropractic was started by a quack/con-man who was a "magnetic healer." He thought that humans contained an innate life force that traveled through the spine, and any interruption in this flow of energy was the basis for all disease. He marketed this scam by saying he cured a man's deafness by cracking his back, which a basic understanding of anatomy would prove that to be impossible. Then, he tried to get chiropractic recognized as a religion, which didn't work, so he opened up schools to scam students into giving him their money.

Now, chiropractic has kind of shifted away from this, but the vast majority of scam artists still try to cure issues like hypothyroidism, allergies, GERD, etc by fixing "subluxations" or "non-allopathic lesions of the spine;" essentially made up issues that have never been proven to exist. They even venture into other quackery by providing diagnosis and care of other made up diseases like chronic Lyme and adrenal fatigue. Often times, they try to hock their supplements and charge you out the ass for bogus tests, all the while creating a cycle of dependence. If scamming people isn't bad enough, their adjustments can cause vertebral arterial dissection, paralysis, stroke, etc.

I believe chiropractors are a much bigger threat to health than naturopaths because their scams have become normalized in our society. There is never a reason to see a chiropractor.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Chiropractors aren't health professionals. They are scam artists.

They told my father-in-law they could cure his meniere's disease... and if I have to watch one more commercial with a chiropractic "physician" telling people to come in for their HYPOTHYROID....

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I feel so bad for that kiddo. I just pray the parents never learn the hard way why they are so stupid.

 

[idontwatchgreysanatomy]

Being cramped up in the womb causes some serious subluxations

 

[RogueBanana]

I'm sure whatever attacks they received, those pseudoscientific quacks deserved it tenfold.

 

[kelminak]

I used to go to a gym owned and managed by a chiropractor. After a few months he began trying to sell me herbal supplements that would magically help me lose weight (because thermodynamics is BS) and adjustments that would help my lifts.

I had to find a new gym after his business collapsed and I arrived one day to find the place gutted. Live and learn.

How I imagine @Goro as the singular like on your post:

This dude is STILL going at at on his facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/billy.demoss1

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

How I imagine @Goro as the singular like on your post:

This dude is STILL going at at on his facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/billy.demoss1

Wow that truly are enuf reasons to avoid vaccines!!!

 

[BunnyMan17]

There's a case of mumps going around Charlottesville, I wonder how that happened?..... [Puts on tinfoil hat].... ITS THE GOVERNMENT RUN FOR YOUR LIVES SCIENCE IS FAKE #DIRTYLEAFWATER>VACCINES

But at least we don't have to worry about chemicals in kid's bodies

 

[Goro]

Bio weapons in the vaccines? That was stolen from the recent X-Files series!

How I imagine @Goro as the singular like on your post:

This dude is STILL going at at on his facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/billy.demoss1

 

[Mad Jack]

Chiropractors aren't health professionals. They are scam artists.

I had a debilitating pinched nerve in my neck once, straight up 10/10 pain from cracking my own neck wrong. Went on for nearly a week, every time my heart would beat it literally felt like a hammer hitting me square in the face. Was seriously considering suicide it was so bad, I can't even describe the level of pain I was in, and conventional medicine could do nothing for me. One twist of the neck by a chiro and I was fine within literally a minute. While it's a rare exception to the general rule of quackery, I very likely would be in a casket right now if not for that bone wizardry. So I'm thankful for that, but generally loathe chiropractors for their quackery and antivaccination nonsense.

 

[Mad Jack]

People like this should literally be in prison.

 

[787593]

I had a debilitating pinched nerve in my neck once, straight up 10/10 pain from cracking my own neck wrong. Went on for nearly a week, every time my heart would beat it literally felt like a hammer hitting me square in the face. Was seriously considering suicide it was so bad, I can't even describe the level of pain I was in, and conventional medicine could do nothing for me. One twist of the neck by a chiro and I was fine within literally a minute. While it's a rare exception to the general rule of quackery, I very likely would be in a casket right now if not for that bone wizardry. So I'm thankful for that, but generally loathe chiropractors for their quackery and antivaccination nonsense.

I hold a similar opinion. I had a ridiculous neck pain once and I couldn't move my neck (it was stuck to the side). Went to my family doc and he recommended ibuprofen.. I went to a chiropractor and he did some massage/adjustment thing and my neck was better in 12 hours.

As much as I'd love to say they're all quacks, this experience prevents me from jumping to that conclusion

n=1

 

[WisNeuro]

Three words, "Vertebral Artery Dissection"

 

[787593]

Three words, "Vertebral Artery Dissection"

"In persons younger than 45 years, there is an association between chiropractic care and vertebro-basilar artery (VBA) stroke; there is a similar association between family physician care and VBA stroke. This suggests that there is no increased risk of VBA stroke after chiropractic care, and that these associations are likely due to patients with headache and neck pain from vertebral artery dissection seeking care while in the prodromal stage of a VBA stroke. Unfortunately, there is no practical or proven method to screen patients with neck pain and headache for vertebral artery dissection. However, VBA strokes are extremely rare, especially in younger persons."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19251069
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0161475408003503

Idk what to make of this but I did a google search and found this

 

[787593]

Three words, "Vertebral Artery Dissection"

Explain! I'm scared haha

 

[dpmd]

Any chiropractor that sticks to musculoskeletal stuff and doesn't push xrays, supplements, or serial visits is OK by me, but I won't pretend that they are doing something that a good physical therapist or maybe a DO that still does OMM couldn't do (and I think the latter 2 are probably more likely to not be shady)

 

[WisNeuro]

Essentially just that, if you have some pre-existing arterial weakness, certain types of neck manipulation are no bueno. In the last 3 years I've seen 2 cases personally of VAD likely related to chiropractic manipulation. One of those was in an individual in their low 30's. Bottom line, chiropractic "medicine" is mostly placebo and quack science at best, and potentially life-threatening at worst.

 

[KoalaT]

In what situations would someone be referred to a chiropractor, when a physical therapist is a better choice and is actually trained in evidence-based care?

I don't know much about the subject or your experience with chiropractors, but from what I understand, modern day chiropractors are different than they used to be. They do incorporate a lot more physical therapy and new evidence-based care.

I think of it analogous to D.O. physicians. Historically, it isn't exactly modern medicine or science based health. However, it has evolved into something that is nearly identical to modern M.D., evidence-based care.

Granted like I said originally though, there are still a bunch of chiropractors out there that are complete quacks and sell you a bunch of shenanigans. See an MD. Only in very rare cases would chiropractors be needed and even then a good MD is not going to send you to one of the quack-jobs.

 

[KrombopulosMichael]

I've heard an ad on the radio a few times now that's been talking about how skinny people have a probiotic in their body that makes them skinny and fat people don't have this probiotic (wtf?). They were promoting fat people to purchase a product that contained this probiotic in pill form (idk for how much, 9 payments of $99 or some ridiculous number probably) and it would magically make them skinny. Sound ridiculous? Well worry no longer, because some "doctor" said he would prescribe this product to his own wife. I looked him up and he was a chiropractor... Do what you want with this info but I thought it was relevant to this thread.

 

[dpmd]

In what situations would someone be referred to a chiropractor, when a physical therapist is a better choice and is actually trained in evidence-based care?

Maybe if their insurance covers chiropractic and the doc knows of a non shady one nearby (and maybe in addition to PT since massage might be incorporated more by the chiropractor)? Or if their issue doesn't meet insurance criteria for PT and the self pay prices are better for a chiropractor than PT? Just some guesses.

 

[idontwatchgreysanatomy]

I had a debilitating pinched nerve in my neck once, straight up 10/10 pain from cracking my own neck wrong. Went on for nearly a week, every time my heart would beat it literally felt like a hammer hitting me square in the face. Was seriously considering suicide it was so bad, I can't even describe the level of pain I was in, and conventional medicine could do nothing for me. One twist of the neck by a chiro and I was fine within literally a minute. While it's a rare exception to the general rule of quackery, I very likely would be in a casket right now if not for that bone wizardry. So I'm thankful for that, but generally loathe chiropractors for their quackery and antivaccination nonsense.

Thank you for your anecdote.

 

[TRPMinus]

I think it's funny how brazen people are online. Regardless of your opinions on chiropractic treatments, would you show such open disrespect to chiropractors in person? Maybe on a more practical note, would you show such open disdain for them in front of your patients if they have questions about chiropractic treatments? Maybe chiropractors are quacks.......but I have to believe that taking a more even approach and educating your patients on the pros/cons would be a better approach and one that they could respect.

 

[veebo]

I think it's funny how brazen people are online. Regardless of your opinions on chiropractic treatments, would you show such open disrespect to chiropractors in person? Maybe on a more practical note, would you show such open disdain for them in front of your patients if they have questions about chiropractic treatments? Maybe chiropractors are quacks.......but I have to believe that taking a more even approach and educating your patients on the pros/cons would be a better approach and one that they could respect.

It's the internet and this is an anonymous board. If openly civil and kind conversations on all topics is what you're looking for you came to the wrong place.

 

[TRPMinus]

It's the internet and this is an anonymous board. If openly civil and kind conversations on all topics is what you're looking for you came to the wrong place.

LOL for real. Just making an observation.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

I think it's funny how brazen people are online. Regardless of your opinions on chiropractic treatments, would you show such open disrespect to chiropractors in person? Maybe on a more practical note, would you show such open disdain for them in front of your patients if they have questions about chiropractic treatments? Maybe chiropractors are quacks.......but I have to believe that taking a more even approach and educating your patients on the pros/cons would be a better approach and one that they could respect.

Yes, you should treat patients with respect and not chastise them for views that you don't agree with.

Except this isn't a discussion with a patient, it's an online forum where it's perfectly fine to frankly express your opinions. If you think physicians and med students should go around treating absolutely every situation like a patient interaction then you're living in a magical fairy land.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I think it's funny how brazen people are online. Regardless of your opinions on chiropractic treatments, would you show such open disrespect to chiropractors in person?

I would just never go to a chiropractor, so I doubt it would come up. If I ran into one and they started talking about how it can cure diabetes, then yes I would.

Maybe on a more practical note, would you show such open disdain for them in front of your patients if they have questions about chiropractic treatments?

Yes. I do that with my patients now, so I see no reason to stop when I'm a doctor.

Maybe chiropractors are quacks.......but I have to believe that taking a more even approach and educating your patients on the pros/cons would be a better approach and one that they could respect.

Being PC is partly why people think NDs and chiropractors are equivalent to doctors. These people are mostly snake oil salesmen at best and outright harmful at worst, and their crap shouldn't be treated as something to weigh the pros and cons.

 

[idontwatchgreysanatomy]

I think it's funny how brazen people are online. Regardless of your opinions on chiropractic treatments, would you show such open disrespect to chiropractors in person? Maybe on a more practical note, would you show such open disdain for them in front of your patients if they have questions about chiropractic treatments? Maybe chiropractors are quacks.......but I have to believe that taking a more even approach and educating your patients on the pros/cons would be a better approach and one that they could respect.

Attitudes like that are why chiropractors are taken seriously by the public. If people don't speak out about their pseudoscience because it is "disrespectful," then you are complicit in the normalization of quackery in our society, and thus, putting the patient population at risk.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think it's funny how brazen people are online. Regardless of your opinions on chiropractic treatments, would you show such open disrespect to chiropractors in person? Maybe on a more practical note, would you show such open disdain for them in front of your patients if they have questions about chiropractic treatments? Maybe chiropractors are quacks.......but I have to believe that taking a more even approach and educating your patients on the pros/cons would be a better approach and one that they could respect.

Why yes, I have openly questioned the evidence base of certain chiropractic "treatments" to such people in person. I'm a big proponent of being able to back up what you do in a healthcare setting with evidence. I have openly criticized people within my own profession for the very same thing. I'm an equal opportunity quack science disdainer.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I have openly criticized people within my own profession for the very same thing. I'm an equal opportunity quack science disdainer.

Same here. I have questioned my colleagues for **** that has no evidence (or in fact has evidence supporting its ineffectiveness). Practice evidence based medicine as best you can, or you really aren't much better than the chiros and NPs who go purely on anecdotes. Actually, it's worse because you should know better.

 

[787593]

Same here. I have questioned my colleagues for **** that has no evidence (or in fact has evidence supporting its ineffectiveness). Practice evidence based medicine as best you can, or you really aren't much better than the chiros and NPs who go purely on anecdotes. Actually, it's worse because you should know better.

Your name changed color

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Your name changed color

Yeah we talked about it on the social thread lol.

 

[idontwatchgreysanatomy]

Your name changed color

I've never understood why some names are blue. What's the reason?

 

[ThoracicGuy]

 

[787593]

Compelling

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I've never understood why some names are blue. What's the reason?

Probation.

 

[Mclovin0351]

Met this guy at jiu jitsu. Long scraggly hair, looks at your forehead not your eyes. About to finish his DOCTOR (he emphasized it) of chiropractic and his masters in nutrition.
Is starting a non profit to study magnesium and sleep "because like it helped me sleep and there's no research on it" (there's a lot). He's going to call it BIOHACK HUMANS because "biohack is an underground term but no REAL doctors have done any real research on it"

I couldn't make this **** up I'm not that creative. I stayed so civil I'm proud of myself

 

[dwgrubbs1s]

Billy at it again, saving lives, fighting off MMR with his hands.