AMEDD Captain's Career Course

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delicatefade

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Anyone know if they are going to offer the 2 week version again? I thought I had seen a message from COL Braverman that the 2 week version would continue to be available, but I just heard from HRC that there are only 9 week courses available this year, starting in March, July, and September.

Not real excited about going to Ft Sam for 9 weeks but I'd like to get the course done.

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Check the schedule on ATRRS. They show one June 16-29, 2013.
 
Don't do this course unless you plan to be promoted to LTC and/or retire. It is a requirement in order to be "selected" as a brigade surgeon so it could actually HURT your career by allowing you to be tasked out to 2 years of purgatory away from real medicine.
 
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Good info. Do you know if only folks in specialties eligible for battalion surgeon can be tasked for brigade surgeon?
 
Good info. Do you know if only folks in specialties eligible for battalion surgeon can be tasked for brigade surgeon?

There are no specialties that are ineligible for battalion or brigade surgeon assignments. Ask me how I know.

The Army has regulations that are supposed to prevent some specialties from being PROFIS'ed as a 62B (field surgeon), but that's not the same thing as being assigned. Besides, they can do and have just done an exception to policy to violate this regulation.

Not completing CCC will not save you from a field surgeon assignment. Again, ask me how I know.
 
There are no specialties that are ineligible for battalion or brigade surgeon assignments. Ask me how I know.

The Army has regulations that are supposed to prevent some specialties from being PROFIS'ed as a 62B (field surgeon), but that's not the same thing as being assigned. Besides, they can do and have just done an exception to policy to violate this regulation.

Not completing CCC will not save you from a field surgeon assignment. Again, ask me how I know.

how do you know this?
 
how do you know this?

Haha - imperatives were meant to be rhetorical. I know this because I have been tasked to be a brigade surgeon, so I've spent some time studying the relevant regulations. Also, at no point did I ever indicate the slightest inkling of wanting to do CCC, nor am presently scheduled to complete it. Nonetheless, I will start my brigade surgeon tour next summer.
 
Don't do this course unless you plan to be promoted to LTC and/or retire. It is a requirement in order to be "selected" as a brigade surgeon so it could actually HURT your career by allowing you to be tasked out to 2 years of purgatory away from real medicine.

-----and you'll accrue a service obligation, whether two weeks or nine weeks.
 
Haha - imperatives were meant to be rhetorical. I know this because I have been tasked to be a brigade surgeon, so I've spent some time studying the relevant regulations. Also, at no point did I ever indicate the slightest inkling of wanting to do CCC, nor am presently scheduled to complete it. Nonetheless, I will start my brigade surgeon tour next summer.
Sorry to hear about your situation. The brigade surgeon initiative is complete bulls..t! Explain to me why the surgeon general can be NURSE but all brigade surgeons should be board-certified physicians? Doesn't make any sense no matter how you try to justify it. These are ADMIN positions that can and should be filled be eager PAs and nurses itching to get promoted and make the military a career (which 90%+ of physicians are not). I was almost tasked as a surgical subspecialist 2 years ago but was saved at the last minute by a someone high-up in the Surgeon General's office. They told me at the time that the CCC, brigade surgeon's course as well as airborne school (the BCT that I was supposed to be assigned to was airborne) were all REQUIRED before starting the 2-year tour.

I sign my letter of resignation in March '13 and am out in March '14 and neither can come soon enough. I wish you luck and hope that somehow you are able to get out of this disaster.
 
Interesting - I feel like i need to get a manual/regs/policy statements to figure out how to avoid things.....
 
Sorry to hear about your situation. The brigade surgeon initiative is complete bulls..t! Explain to me why the surgeon general can be NURSE but all brigade surgeons should be board-certified physicians? Doesn't make any sense no matter how you try to justify it. These are ADMIN positions that can and should be filled be eager PAs and nurses itching to get promoted and make the military a career (which 90%+ of physicians are not). I was almost tasked as a surgical subspecialist 2 years ago but was saved at the last minute by a someone high-up in the Surgeon General's office. They told me at the time that the CCC, brigade surgeon's course as well as airborne school (the BCT that I was supposed to be assigned to was airborne) were all REQUIRED before starting the 2-year tour.

I sign my letter of resignation in March '13 and am out in March '14 and neither can come soon enough. I wish you luck and hope that somehow you are able to get out of this disaster.

Congrats on your upcoming separation. Until recently, I had little to complain about my time in uniform. I was tentatively planning on separating after my initial ADSO, but that has more to do with family concerns than professional ones. Then came this tasking and ruined everything. It's so disheartening to be a part of an organization that has its priorities so out of whack but be powerless to change it.

Regarding CCC, I remember your post from the original BDE surgery thread. For all I know, you are correct with respect to the letter of the regulation. I just don't think that they are going to let something as petty as the regulations stop them from implementing this tasking. It could be as simple as they haven't figured out that I have not signed up for CCC yet, and they'll shuffle me into a course at the last second. I figure it may delay my PCS and decrease the amount of time I spend as a BDE surgeon. Or, they can just send me to the assignment without the course, which is fine by me because I really have no desire to sit in a classroom for 2 to 9 weeks learning things that have absolutely no bearing on my day-to-day life.

In either case, I am well past the point of trying to manage my career. As far as I am concerned, my army career is functionally over the moment I stop practicing medicine in favor of overseeing medical boards and tracking flu vaccination readiness. Your post about the surgeon general being a nurse, but these battalion and brigade surgeons needing to be physicians, is spot on. Let the administrators that want to make full colonel go fill those spots, and let those of us who spent a decade of our lives training to practice medicine do just that.
 
Congrats on your upcoming separation. Until recently, I had little to complain about my time in uniform. I was tentatively planning on separating after my initial ADSO, but that has more to do with family concerns than professional ones. Then came this tasking and ruined everything. It's so disheartening to be a part of an organization that has its priorities so out of whack but be powerless to change it.

Regarding CCC, I remember your post from the original BDE surgery thread. For all I know, you are correct with respect to the letter of the regulation. I just don't think that they are going to let something as petty as the regulations stop them from implementing this tasking. It could be as simple as they haven't figured out that I have not signed up for CCC yet, and they'll shuffle me into a course at the last second. I figure it may delay my PCS and decrease the amount of time I spend as a BDE surgeon. Or, they can just send me to the assignment without the course, which is fine by me because I really have no desire to sit in a classroom for 2 to 9 weeks learning things that have absolutely no bearing on my day-to-day life.

In either case, I am well past the point of trying to manage my career. As far as I am concerned, my army career is functionally over the moment I stop practicing medicine in favor of overseeing medical boards and tracking flu vaccination readiness. Your post about the surgeon general being a nurse, but these battalion and brigade surgeons needing to be physicians, is spot on. Let the administrators that want to make full colonel go fill those spots, and let those of us who spent a decade of our lives training to practice medicine do just that.

Do you think there is any place where you can just practice medicine in the military and work your way to a decent retirement?
 
Do you think there is any place where you can just practice medicine in the military and work your way to a decent retirement?

Yes, it called an MTF. Some have the privilege of working at MTFs their entire career and perhaps having to suffer a few months at a CSH for a deployment. Most do not enjoy this.
 
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Yes, it called an MTF. Some have the privilege of working at MTFs their entire career and perhaps having to suffer a few months at a CSH for a deployment. Most do not enjoy this.

Or being a contractor, paying the difference in salary into a retirement fund, and never worrying about deployment...
 
What's the added additional service obligation for going to CCC? Any idea for RC docs?

I believe six months,yes, even if the course is only nine weeks. For the accurate answer, ask your branch manager. May not seem like a lot of time, but in my specialty, they were trying to push us all to get CCC out of the way as early as possible. If I had done the course, I would not have been able to ETS until now (instead of six months ago).

I am not against the CCC. I think its a must if you are planning on staying in and want to make LTC. But otherwise, don't do it.
 
Do you think there is any place where you can just practice medicine in the military and work your way to a decent retirement?

Not sure if you're asking rhetorically and in so making a point about the nature of military medicine, but taking your question at face value...

Yes, I've seen it done many times. I might go as far as to say that, for my specialty at least, it's the norm rather than the exception. Everyone will get saddled with some administrative duty, but I'd like to think that's not too different from the way a senior PP partner has to be part businessman. Many will get saddled with too much, but even that duty is frequently in hopsital administration that allows part-time practice. Only in the military could removal from the practice of medicine be couched as a "reward" and opportunity for career advancement.

I've thought a lot about this the past couple of months, and I think that your question highlights why medicine and the military don't mix. The overwhelming majoirty of physicians want to - wait for it - practice medicine. For us, that is the goal; it's our end. We train for years and years to reach indepedent practice, and once we do, most of us want nothing more than to keep doing it. We'll do it in Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, wherever, but let us do our job.

The Army, specifically, and the military, generally, don't see it that way. They're so mired in the idea of "career development" and progressing to the next job, the next rank, that they can't even conceptualize that someone would be content to just hold what they've got. Medicine, for them, is just a means to an end - namely, to have a career. In the same way that a good company commander or good staff officer is more likely to make a good battalion commander, they see an MD/DO as the prerequisite to see if someone is good at running a clinic. Because, after all, people good at running clinics might be good at running hospitals.

The problem is that's not how medicine works. There's nothing that a surgeon learns at CCC that improves his appendectomy skills, nor is there anything I will learn as a BDE surgeon that will improve my specificity at detecting cancer on a mammogram. In that sense, medicine is no different than any other professional skill (e.g. lawyers, pilots). The difference is that we train to civilian standards, and most of the time we practice to civilian standards. Those are our measuring sticks. And when the Army superimposes its career arc onto those standards, it jeopardizes the safe and competent practice of medicine.

As long as the military neglects this fundamental difference between good medicine and good officership, the medical corps will limp along - held up only by those with the patience and stamina to continue practicing in the face of a system too often designed to undermine them. I have a great deal of respect for those who continue to work within military medicine but who retain their perspective on its flaws. Too many of our leaders have bought in, and are serving only to perpetuate the status quo. I have respect for them because I am not one of them. Like so many others, I've decided that life is too short to waste any more time with this organization than I have to.
 
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Do you think there is any place where you can just practice medicine in the military and work your way to a decent retirement?

I think this may depend on one's specialty. I knew several O-5/6 physicians all doing pulmonary/critical care at BAMC seeing patients as well as doing admin duties. If you are highly specialized physician working in MEDCEN teaching residents and seeing patients I think you can practice medicine until you get deployed and come right back to same place. Of course you will never make higher than O-6 this way.
 
:thumbup:
Not sure if you're asking rhetorically and in so making a point about the nature of military medicine, but taking your question at face value...

Yes, I've seen it done many times. I might go as far as to say that, for my specialty at least, it's the norm rather than the exception. Everyone will get saddled with some administrative duty, but I'd like to think that's not too different from the way a senior PP partner has to be part businessman. Many will get saddled with too much, but even that duty is frequently in hopsital administration that allows part-time practice. Only in the military could removal from the practice of medicine be couched as a "reward" and opportunity for career advancement.

I've thought a lot about this the past couple of months, and I think that your question highlights why medicine and the military don't mix. The overwhelming majoirty of physicians want to - wait for it - practice medicine. For us, that is the goal; it's our end. We train for years and years to reach indepedent practice, and once we do, most of us want nothing more than to keep doing it. We'll do it in Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, wherever, but let us do our job.

The Army, specifically, and the military, generally, don't see it that way. They're so mired in the idea of "career development" and progressing to the next job, the next rank, that they can't even conceptualize that someone would be content to just hold what they've got. Medicine, for them, is just a means to an end - namely, to have a career. In the same way that a good company commander or good staff officer is more likely to make a good battalion commander, they see an MD/DO as the prerequisite to see if someone is good at running a clinic. Because, after all, people good at running clinics might be good at running hospitals.

The problem is that's not how medicine works. There's nothing that a surgeon learns at CCC that improves his appendectomy skills, nor is there anything I will learn as a BDE surgeon that will improve my specificity at detecting cancer on a mammogram. In that sense, medicine is no different than any other professional skill (e.g. lawyers, pilots). The difference is that we train to civilian standards, and most of the time we practice to civilian standards. Those are our measuring sticks. And when the Army superimposes its career arc onto those standards, it jeopardizes the safe and competent practice of medicine.

As long as the military neglects this fundamental difference between good medicine and good officership, the medical corps will limp along - held up only by those with the patience and stamina to continue practicing in the face of a system too often designed to undermine them. I have a great deal of respect for those who continue to work within military medicine but who retain their perspective on its flaws. Too many of our leaders have bought in, and are serving only to perpetuate the status quo. I have respect for them because I am not one of them. Like so many others, I've decided that life is too short to waste any more time with this organization than I have to.

Sadly people who think this way get out...or never make rank higher than O-6.
 
The military has a specialist who is primarily a technical expert, and that's the warrant officer. What about making all physicians Warrants? :D
 
:thumbup:

Sadly people who think this way get out...or never make rank higher than O-6.
Physicians don't care about making it past 0-6 because you have to stop practicing medicine after making O7. They want to practice medicine, specifically their specialty. There hasn't been a physician in my specialty willingly extend past their initial ADSO in the last 5 years (except for those choosing to do fellowship). By and large the only physicians that stay in are 1) Primary care (income is similar to the outside), 2) Those with exceptionally long ADSOs (i.e. USUHS + ROTC/Academy) and 3) Those that have become institutionalized and cannot make it on their own in private practice. I have seen many in this last category at my MEDCEN. They are always 05/06 and see very few patients a day (if any at all) and justify it by saying that they are busy with "admin" duties. Meanwhile, the 3 04s in my clinic AVERAGE 30+ pts per day (even with AHLTA) and 400+ surgeries per year. Who do you think makes more money for the government? Yet, these O5/O6s are paid more despite being much less productive because of rank and time in service. Nobody in the military is compensated based on productivity/quality of care and this is a major reason that the system is broken and destined to fail. I w
 
There are a number of good reasons to stay in, and they are a number of good reasons to get out. One thing I will say about getting out, it is amazing to learn how enjoyable practicing medicine is after you get back into practice again.
 
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That makes me want to delay taking CCC. I know I will need it as I will make O-5, but if I cannot do a brigade surgeon slot without it I don't want to get it anytime soon. But I don't want to take the 9 week course either, but I would rather take a 9 week CCC than spend 2 years as a BS anytime soon.
 
I have seen many in this last category at my MEDCEN. They are always 05/06 and see very few patients a day (if any at all) and justify it by saying that they are busy with "admin" duties.

Why the annoyed tone at physicians working full time on admin stuff? The Senior officers at my hospital who do admin work seem genuinely busy with their admin work. Its not like these guys don't exist in the civilian world: none of the deans at my medical school had a significant census of patients they were taking care of.
 
That makes me want to delay taking CCC. I know I will need it as I will make O-5, but if I cannot do a brigade surgeon slot without it I don't want to get it anytime soon. But I don't want to take the 9 week course either, but I would rather take a 9 week CCC than spend 2 years as a BS anytime soon.

I wonder doing CCC is absolutely required to become LTC? I've met selected or recently pinned LTCs who still have not done CCC...
 
I wonder doing CCC is absolutely required to become LTC? I've met selected or recently pinned LTCs who still have not done CCC...

Historically, you're right. It hasn't been necesssary and I, too, have met a number of LTCs who pinned on before completing CCC. However, the new AMEDD leadership has made it known that it's now a functional requirement if not a regulatory one.
 
Dragging this up from the depths but does anyone know how this pertains to RC docs in the guard? Is CCC required for promotion to O5-O6?
 
I've thought a lot about this the past couple of months, and I think that your question highlights why medicine and the military don't mix. The overwhelming majoirty of physicians want to - wait for it - practice medicine. For us, that is the goal; it's our end. We train for years and years to reach indepedent practice, and once we do, most of us want nothing more than to keep doing it. We'll do it in Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, wherever, but let us do our job.

The Army, specifically, and the military, generally, don't see it that way. They're so mired in the idea of "career development" and progressing to the next job, the next rank, that they can't even conceptualize that someone would be content to just hold what they've got. Medicine, for them, is just a means to an end - namely, to have a career. In the same way that a good company commander or good staff officer is more likely to make a good battalion commander, they see an MD/DO as the prerequisite to see if someone is good at running a clinic. Because, after all, people good at running clinics might be good at running hospitals.

The problem is that's not how medicine works. There's nothing that a surgeon learns at CCC that improves his appendectomy skills, nor is there anything I will learn as a BDE surgeon that will improve my specificity at detecting cancer on a mammogram. In that sense, medicine is no different than any other professional skill (e.g. lawyers, pilots). The difference is that we train to civilian standards, and most of the time we practice to civilian standards. Those are our measuring sticks. And when the Army superimposes its career arc onto those standards, it jeopardizes the safe and competent practice of medicine.

As long as the military neglects this fundamental difference between good medicine and good officership, the medical corps will limp along - held up only by those with the patience and stamina to continue practicing in the face of a system too often designed to undermine them. I have a great deal of respect for those who continue to work within military medicine but who retain their perspective on its flaws. Too many of our leaders have bought in, and are serving only to perpetuate the status quo. I have respect for them because I am not one of them. Like so many others, I've decided that life is too short to waste any more time with this organization than I have to.

Amen!!!

I am a flight surgeon/GMO and I HATE my job with the fire of a thousand suns. I will cut and run the second my ADSO is up (two years away). I cannot say enough bad things about my job, not to mention the unethical and illegal things that my commanders have ordered me to do and then punished my section for not obeying. I'm at a point now where I don't even know if I want to continue to practice medicine at all, even on the civilian side. I dread seeing patients, even though I have some pretty amazing Soldiers (and a ton of sick call rangers). I'm considering signing up for CCC merely to get away from my malignant command and even the job that I hate (writing profiles and MEB packets all day). Does anyone know what the obligation is after attending CCC (for regular AD)? Is the course really all that bad? I hardly imagine it being more dreadful than my current position, and it might be nice to get away for a couple of months. I've been living half a country away from my family since I started AD, so at least I don't have to worry about leaving my family for that time...

Is it June 2015 yet?
 
Amen!!!

I am a flight surgeon/GMO and I HATE my job with the fire of a thousand suns. I will cut and run the second my ADSO is up (two years away). I cannot say enough bad things about my job, not to mention the unethical and illegal things that my commanders have ordered me to do and then punished my section for not obeying. I'm at a point now where I don't even know if I want to continue to practice medicine at all, even on the civilian side. I dread seeing patients, even though I have some pretty amazing Soldiers (and a ton of sick call rangers). I'm considering signing up for CCC merely to get away from my malignant command and even the job that I hate (writing profiles and MEB packets all day). Does anyone know what the obligation is after attending CCC (for regular AD)? Is the course really all that bad? I hardly imagine it being more dreadful than my current position, and it might be nice to get away for a couple of months. I've been living half a country away from my family since I started AD, so at least I don't have to worry about leaving my family for that time...

Is it June 2015 yet?

Is the admin that bad? My condolences. My perspective was from the AF a few years ago, and I never contemplated BDE in residence unless forced at gunpoint. We wrote lots of soul sucking MEBs also but I enjoyed writing aeromedical waivers to get aircrew flying since all weren't malingerers and were just unlucky. Hang in there!
 
I'm a field surgeon, working on a 4 year ADSO, looking to get back to Bragg next year. One of the requirements to be considered for a slot there is to attend CCC.

I heard that CCC attendees incur a 2 year ADSO, but this runs concurrent with any existing ADSO. Can anyone confirm this?
 
I'm a field surgeon, working on a 4 year ADSO, looking to get back to Bragg next year. One of the requirements to be considered for a slot there is to attend CCC.

I heard that CCC attendees incur a 2 year ADSO, but this runs concurrent with any existing ADSO. Can anyone confirm this?

It can be served concurrently with other ADSOs, but I don't think it's a 2-year obligation. I want to say that Army schools (of sufficient length) generally incur a commitment 4X their length (???). So, CCC is 9 weeks = 36 week obligation. Of course, if you accept a new assignment to Bragg in conjunction with CCC, then that could add to your obligation as well.
 
A couple of months ago, my branch manager told me it was one year ADSO after CCC, served concurrently with remaining commitment.
 
Wait, they make Docs go to CCC? I thought BOLC put them through enough military stress and BS! Camp Bullis is serious business. The look on their faces when 2LT student leadership (AN and MS variety) told the attendings/residents to police call and get back in uniform regs was always priceless.

ADSOs vary depending on the situation but most are 2 year or less commonly 1 year. Many are concurrent.
 
Physicians don't care about making it past 0-6 because you have to stop practicing medicine after making O7. They want to practice medicine, specifically their specialty. There hasn't been a physician in my specialty willingly extend past their initial ADSO in the last 5 years (except for those choosing to do fellowship). By and large the only physicians that stay in are 1) Primary care (income is similar to the outside), 2) Those with exceptionally long ADSOs (i.e. USUHS + ROTC/Academy) and 3) Those that have become institutionalized and cannot make it on their own in private practice. I have seen many in this last category at my MEDCEN. They are always 05/06 and see very few patients a day (if any at all) and justify it by saying that they are busy with "admin" duties. Meanwhile, the 3 04s in my clinic AVERAGE 30+ pts per day (even with AHLTA) and 400+ surgeries per year. Who do you think makes more money for the government? Yet, these O5/O6s are paid more despite being much less productive because of rank and time in service. Nobody in the military is compensated based on productivity/quality of care and this is a major reason that the system is broken and destined to fail. I w

This is the same in every facet of the military. You really think the brigade commander is putting as much work in as a basic line company commander? Yeah no. Just how it is.
 
Hey folks, I dont mean to derail the thread, but reading through the cynicism, I'm starting to think twice about my commitment to the ARNG. I'm a 4th year working his way through the interview process.

My current obligation is for the last 2.5 years I have taken MDSSP. Can anyone explain to me the option(s) I will have in residency? Or share any thoughts on the subject? Thanks and cheers.
 
My current obligation is for the last 2.5 years I have taken MDSSP. Can anyone explain to me the option(s) I will have in residency? Or share any thoughts on the subject? Thanks and cheers.
What do you mean by "option(s)" you will have in residency? You are in drill status for the duration of your residency and then after you finish residency, you will owe 5 more years of drill status. What do you mean by options in residency? I'm confused.
 
What do you mean by "option(s)" you will have in residency? You are in drill status for the duration of your residency and then after you finish residency, you will owe 5 more years of drill status. What do you mean by options in residency? I'm confused.

Incentive(s). I didn't think that I was being ambiguous. One doc in my unit didn't take any and partially paid back his MDSSP as a resident. Another is trying to setup her HPLRP. No one seems to be able to explain exactly what my options are and the POC in my unit is new.
 
Incentive(s). I didn't think that I was being ambiguous.
Sorry for my confusion. In my experience on this board, when someone talks about cynicism, obligation, and current "options," they're usually looking for ways out, if possible.
One doc in my unit didn't take any and partially paid back his MDSSP as a resident.
The payback scheme changed a few years back.

With MDSSP, you accumulate 2 years of active drilling status for every year of stipend. It used to be that this obligation was paid back after medical school (i.e. during residency). This hasn't been the case for a few years. Now, you can only pay back your MDSSP obligation after residency.

The only exception to this is if you are going into a wartime shortage specialty (the list is long for the Army) and you take STRAP. In that case, MDSSP becomes a 1:1 service obligation and you begin payback immediately after completing medical school. You are obligated to take STRAP for the entirety of your residency and will owe 2:1 service obligation for the time you received STRAP.

MDSSP is a deal I usually try to talk people out of and adding years before you have much time in service is another thing I usually try to talk people out of. But you may be one of the few people that the combined MDSSP + STRAP makes sense for. It's pretty much only a good option potentially for folks who have taken MDSSP for only part of medical school. Which is you.

Example: if you DO NOT take STRAP, you will owe 5 years of drilling status to begin after residency (you're still drilling in residency, it just doesn't count towards payback). If you DO take STRAP, if you do a 3 year residency afterwards, you will have paid back MDSSP by the time residency ends (you only owe 2.5 years drilling from your MDSSP years), but you will accumulate 6 years of drilling of STRAP.

So if you're entering a 3 year residency, you only add an extra year commitment to your post-residency obligation and gain 3 years of stipdend for it. Not a bad deal. That said, if you go into a longer residency, or do not like the Army, it's not such a good deal. Make sense?
Another is trying to setup her HPLRP. No one seems to be able to explain exactly what my options are and the POC in my unit is new.
HPLRP is $40K/year for every year you stay in the Guard past any obligations. So while you are paying off MDSSP for 5 years after residency, you can't take it. Or you can, but the year you take HPLRP defers a year of payback towards MDSSP. The only exception is to folks taking STRAP in residency. They can take HPLRP during their PGY-3 years and beyond while in residency. After residency, the same rule applies (when they take HPLRP, they are deferring their payback for MDSSP or STRAP).

Let me know if you have any more questions. It can be confusing stuff...
 
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