• Funniest Story on the Job Contest Starts Now!

    Contest starts now and ends September 27th. Winner will receive a special user banner and $10 Amazon Gift card!

    JOIN NOW
  • Site Updates Coming Next Week

    Site updates are coming next week on Monday and Friday. Click the button below to learn more!

    LEARN MORE

American Board of Physician Specialties

zeloc

Senior Member
15+ Year Member
Aug 22, 2003
404
28
296
  1. Attending Physician
Wondering if anyone here has taken the IM boards by the American Board of Physician Specialties? It's a competing organization with ABMS and has its own exam and board certification process.

I am all for competition given the fiasco 8-10 yrs ago and the ensuing MOC process, but would like to know the quality of the exam, whether it is well-written and I will also be looking for psychometric data if available.
 

DrMetal

To shred or not shred?
10+ Year Member
Sep 16, 2008
2,307
1,208
276
  1. Attending Physician
Wondering if anyone here has taken the IM boards by the American Board of Physician Specialties? It's a competing organization with ABMS and has its own exam and board certification process.

I am all for competition given the fiasco 8-10 yrs ago and the ensuing MOC process, but would like to know the quality of the exam, whether it is well-written and I will also be looking for psychometric data if available.

The only competition I knew of with the ABMS is the NBPS (loosely accepted in some places). Bu this is good to hear, the more competition the better.

Of course, what we could do collectively is just get rid of board certification altogether, after we recognize that 'Board Certification' is just a sexy label that means you can take and pass a 300-Q multiple guess trivia exam, and it has no bearing on your competency as a physician.
 
About the Ads

zeloc

Senior Member
15+ Year Member
Aug 22, 2003
404
28
296
  1. Attending Physician

Lexdiamondz

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Dec 16, 2011
982
1,764
226
  1. Attending Physician

zeloc

Senior Member
15+ Year Member
Aug 22, 2003
404
28
296
  1. Attending Physician
They don't require a residency in EM.

Anyway, to my knowledge most institutions in desirable areas won't credential you as "Board Certified" with an ABPS certificate.

Yes, it does. From the link I posted above, one of the (several) requirements include:

"Completing an ACGME- or AOA-accredited residency, or a residency recognized by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada (RCPSC), in emergency medicine"
 

Lexdiamondz

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Dec 16, 2011
982
1,764
226
  1. Attending Physician
Yes, it does. From the link I posted above, one of the (several) requirements include:

"Completing an ACGME- or AOA-accredited residency, or a residency recognized by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada (RCPSC), in emergency medicine"

You misunderstand.

ABPS will “board certify” someone despite not having done an EM residency with pretty meagre requirements
 

zeloc

Senior Member
15+ Year Member
Aug 22, 2003
404
28
296
  1. Attending Physician
All 3 of them are scams. Everyone is aware of the fiasco with the ABMS. They can create whatever requirements and fees they want and they have a captive audience.
ABPS, for IM at least, has a yearly $895 fee. Internal Medicine Application & Exam Fee Schedule
NBPAS is just pointless - you pay them $200 and they re-certify you. At least they should offer an exam, since the point of these ceritifications is the maintenance and advancement of practical knowledge.

What a certifying organization should be doing is looking at relationships between real outcomes and ppl who are certified, and relationships with the exam and those factors, and modify the exam/recertification process so that it does correlate highly with important outcomes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

DrMetal

To shred or not shred?
10+ Year Member
Sep 16, 2008
2,307
1,208
276
  1. Attending Physician
All 3 of them are scams. Everyone is aware of the fiasco with the ABMS. They can create whatever requirements and fees they want and they have a captive audience.
ABPS, for IM at least, has a yearly $895 fee. Internal Medicine Application & Exam Fee Schedule
NBPAS is just pointless - you pay them $200 and they re-certify you. At least they should offer an exam, since the point of these ceritifications is the maintenance and advancement of practical knowledge.

Which is why we should get rid of the notion of board certification altogether. It's a meaningless credential that just sounds good, wow you're 'board certified', as if we're supposed to take pride in that. No. Take pride in finishing medical school, finishing residency, fellowship, then practicing as a good doctor. That's enough!
 

DrMetal

To shred or not shred?
10+ Year Member
Sep 16, 2008
2,307
1,208
276
  1. Attending Physician
Some would say ABMS is the biggest scam.

Of course it is. We've just been indoctrinated into believing it's something important. There was a time in this country when board certification was strictly optional (a nice academic achievement, so be it), but you didn't have to have it, and you could be judged solely on the merits of your practice. Now that it's become the baseline, I'll bet you money that in due time we'll come up with another credential, to help distinguish some from others--call it super duper elite BC. First it'll be optional, then required. Unless we put a stop to it.
 

VA Hopeful Dr

Senior Member
Volunteer Staff
15+ Year Member
Jul 28, 2004
25,039
43,511
426
  1. Attending Physician
Of course it is. We've just been indoctrinated into believing it's something important. There was a time in this country when board certification was strictly optional (a nice academic achievement, so be it), but you didn't have to have it, and you could be judged solely on the merits of your practice. Now that it's become the baseline, I'll bet you money that in due time we'll come up with another credential, to help distinguish some from others--call it super duper elite BC. First it'll be optional, then required. Unless we put a stop to it.
Doubt it. Board certification has been nearly universal for 40+ years. Or rather I don't see any major changes for the rest of my career. The huge backlash against some of the newer things in the last 6-8 years did wonders.

What I don't much care for are all the additional fellowships popping up. Neither peds nor y'all need a hospital medicine fellowship, for example.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

CCM-MD

Full Member
2+ Year Member
Oct 11, 2016
923
1,327
126
  1. Attending Physician
Doubt it. Board certification has been nearly universal for 40+ years. Or rather I don't see any major changes for the rest of my career. The huge backlash against some of the newer things in the last 6-8 years did wonders.

What I don't much care for are all the additional fellowships popping up. Neither peds nor y'all need a hospital medicine fellowship, for example.
Hospital medicine fellowship is crazy. Crazy enough that it might actually become a reality one day.
 

VA Hopeful Dr

Senior Member
Volunteer Staff
15+ Year Member
Jul 28, 2004
25,039
43,511
426
  1. Attending Physician
Hospital medicine fellowship is crazy. Crazy enough that it might actually become a reality one day.
I'd love to say no internist is stupid enough to do one of those, but you are the specialty where your Chief year is often just a 4th year of residency so...
 

DrSnips

Hospitalist
7+ Year Member
Apr 18, 2012
519
558
216
  1. Attending Physician
Hospital medicine fellowship is crazy. Crazy enough that it might actually become a reality one day.

To be fair, hospital medicine fellowships are mostly geared around improving teaching and/or research skills. Doing one can make you more competitive for the best academic jobs (the same way an MPH, PhD or other academic resume item might improve your chances).
 

DrMetal

To shred or not shred?
10+ Year Member
Sep 16, 2008
2,307
1,208
276
  1. Attending Physician
What I don't much care for are all the additional fellowships popping up. Neither peds nor y'all need a hospital medicine fellowship, for example.

Agree. Fellowship in Addiction, in Obesity in Women's Health...makes you wonder what the hell we're doing/teaching in a general IM/FM residency.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

VA Hopeful Dr

Senior Member
Volunteer Staff
15+ Year Member
Jul 28, 2004
25,039
43,511
426
  1. Attending Physician
Agree. Fellowship in Addiction, in Obesity in Women's Health...makes you wonder what the hell we're doing/teaching in a general IM/FM residency.
Meh, none of those bother me since I either can already treat those conditions or they actually do provide value. That said, my impression is always been that IM residency was always fairly week in women's health procedures which is understandable given how little outpatient time many of your residency programs have. so having a training option where you learn to do a lot of the women's health procedures that those of us in family medicine do train to do doesn't seem unreasonable.
 

DrMetal

To shred or not shred?
10+ Year Member
Sep 16, 2008
2,307
1,208
276
  1. Attending Physician
Meh, none of those bother me since I either can already treat those conditions or they actually do provide value. That said, my impression is always been that IM residency was always fairly week in women's health procedures which is understandable given how little outpatient time many of your residency programs have. so having a training option where you learn to do a lot of the women's health procedures that those of us in family medicine do train to do doesn't seem unreasonable.

What procedures? Colposcopy, DNCs? We don't need a fellowship in that, it's call a Gyn residency. The argument I heard for a WH fellowship was that we were not paying enough attention to our female patients and missing a lot of post-MP heart disease and other pathology. My retort to that would be: fix our IM/FM residencies, to teach and emphasize that. Don't need a fellowship for that. That's a deficiency in our initial training that should be corrected.
 

VA Hopeful Dr

Senior Member
Volunteer Staff
15+ Year Member
Jul 28, 2004
25,039
43,511
426
  1. Attending Physician
What procedures? Colposcopy, DNCs? We don't need a fellowship in that, it's call a Gyn residency. The argument I heard for a WH fellowship was that we were not paying enough attention to our female patients and missing a lot of post-MP heart disease and other pathology. My retort to that would be: fix our IM/FM residencies, to teach and emphasize that. Don't need a fellowship for that. That's a deficiency in our initial training that should be corrected.
If that's all your WH fellowships are, then yeah that's something that could easily be fixed with an extra few lectures during residency and attendings who are on the ball in the area.

You don't need a GYN residency to do colpos, IUDs, EMBs, office based stuff like that. I would hope that the primary care tract IM residencies would actually have that as an option for interested residents. Same with stuff like HRT, some basic prenatal care that I get the impression lots of IM residents don't get a whole lot of exposure to.
 
About the Ads
This thread is more than 1 year old.

Your message may be considered spam for the following reasons:

  1. Your new thread title is very short, and likely is unhelpful.
  2. Your reply is very short and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  3. Your reply is very long and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  4. It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose.
  5. Your message is mostly quotes or spoilers.
  6. Your reply has occurred very quickly after a previous reply and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  7. This thread is locked.