American econ major hoping to study medicine in Germany

[briceryant]

Hello,

I'm an American, 30 years old, studied Economics in university and have since mostly worked as a teacher and writer. I speak fairly fluent German and am currently planning on applying to German medical schools.

My main question is about prerequisites - I know that for American programs, many people applying to school had "pre-med" majors like biology, chemistry, etc. As to me, I know some math and statistics, but my scientific education is not much higher than high school level. I'm a good student and know that I can learn all of this, but I really need to know what I should do in order to be accepted by a good medical school.

So my first question is: do I have any chance of being admitted starting this fall? For example, do German medical programs allow you to study medicine and basic science at the same time?

If I don't have much chance, I would start aiming for Fall 2013 admission. In that case, I would probably immediately move to Germany and start taking biology and chemistry classes while improving my German. But how many of these courses would I have to take and does anybody have any information on how to sign on at a German university as a part-time pre-med? (ie. a non-degree student just taking medical prerequisites). For the sake of simplicity, I would like to join a program aimed at talented students who studied non-pre-med subjects ie. a program that will give me all the prerequisites and medical training within a single program. Does anybody have any information about this?

Thanks a lot.

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[bidiboom]

As far as I know, they demand two basic things :
1) Fluent German
2) High GPA, but I dont know the specifics of this "high GPA", actully they say "excellent GPA", but how excellent it must be?

By the way, German med education system is as well European, which means they admit high school grads and and have 6-year programs, which include premed studies in first two years (with anatomy etc, for two years you dont take only premed courses).

Med schools in Germany are really very low in tuition and known to be good (how good thats another question mark, reputations and reality sometimes/many times come too different), but if your first concern is to turn back to US and live/work there, I will suggest a better option, Jagiellonian/Poland, better for (but you need to take premed courses and MCAT with a minimum score of 24):
1) It has 4-year US compliant program, not European
2) NBME exams which is complient with USMLE, which you need to take to find a residency and work in US
3) According to its current students/grads, almost all of its students (the 4-year program which takes US/CA citizens) can have good USMLE scores, USCE, LoRs and find a residency in US.
4) Pretty affordable for it provides loan and the tuition is 12.000Euros.
5) Has California Med Board approval, which roughly means 50-state approval.

There is an Irish med schools option as well, but they are so expensive that it makes Irish option too unpragmatic to me.

Ah, BTW, if you dont want to spend a year for premed and take MCAT, than you can join in 6-year programs of Jag or Gdansk or Warsaw, but only Jag among them has CMB approval like German med schools (though still you need to check CMB approval list to be sure about the approval condition of the German school of your choice). And there is a Charles as a good option in Czech Rep as well, but I dont know much about it, but there are US citizens who have education there, you can open a thread specifically about it.

There is another forum about European schools, ValueMD, you can find some info there as well.

 

[bidiboom]

After reading the reply in VMD, now do you understand what I mean with "reputation and reality"? It may fall far to the reality. I personally observed this before, just be careful, people earn over those forums. Trust only data, not the people, including me as well.

 

[med_heidelberg]

Acceptance rates for non EU foreigners are around 5%. German med schools are among the best in the world reputation wise and are not offshore schools, like the Polish schools that cater to Americans. I addition there is little to no tuition in Germany depending on the state, so the competition to gain admission is enormous, as one could imagine. The most qualified foreign students worldwide are competing for just a handful of slots at each university.

Usually you can get credit for courses such as chem, biochem, physics, biology etc. to count for the medical curriculum. You could take them in the US or Germany. Credit is awarded on a case by case basis by the LPA or the professors if you approach them for an equivalency certificate.

You would have to take a German language exam, such as the TestDaF, at one of the Goethe Institutes in the US or in Germany to apply, in addition to having excellent grades in college. Your college grades would be used to calculate a score equivalent to the German Abischnitt. Also if you are a non EU citizen you have to provide proof of sufficient finances in order to obtain your student visa. They will want to see bank statements or a letter from your parents or someone else stating they will provide you with sufficient funds for your living expenses and any tuition you would have to pay.

In my previous posts I describe the rigors of the German medical education system and how difficult it can be for the few Americans that pursue this route. In addition residency slots will not be as easily obtainable for IMGs as they have been in the past. Since the program is six years, things might look a lot different for IMGs by then.

 

[briceryant]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses, guys. I really don't know what my chances are with Germany - probably fairly low, especially for Berlin-Charite which is where I'd like to go. I have 3.8 high school GPA, 3.63 Uni, B.S. in economics with honors and thesis. I was a scholarship student with 1500 SAT on the old scale, high IQ and all that, but I've hardly studied any science and I'm not even sure I could get really good recommendation letters anymore. I don't want to go to a lower-end school, but I don't seem to have the credentials to go to a really high-end one.

I've looked at the Atlantic Bridge and Jagiellonian websites, some interesting stuff there and living in Krakow does sound interesting. Does Jagiellonian really have a good reputation?

 

[briceryant]

And med_heidelberg, yes, I've read some of your other posts in other threads, I'm not the sort of person who posts without at least reading a few threads on similar topics. It's just I really am confused about the level of scientific education I'm expected to have to be competitive in Germany. I frankly have no idea how competitive I am - I have a good academic record but haven't taken a science course in about 10 years. Basically, I have the feeling that I look bad on paper in some respects, but if they respect academic talent and a bit of life experience then maybe I have a chance.

You seem to have a fairly pragmatic view of German medical education and I appreciate knowing about possible downsides. But my German is fairly good (I'm easily C1 level and I improve quickly when I study), I have regional knowledge as I lived in Berlin for 2 years, I have friends and a bit of a support network there. I consider Germans and Germany to be serious in a good way. So it's attractive to me even beyond the financial component, I'm not just a "I heard it's free, I want to go there!" sort of student which I've seen in some other threads. I'd even consider taking up practice in Germany rather than the U.S., depending on how the economy/political situation shapes up in the next years. And certainly I'd consider studying outside of Berlin if I wasn't accepted at Charite - maybe Dresden/Leipzig/Jena/Rostock, they're all about 2 hours from Berlin anyways, I could visit friends on weekends. If I went to a west-German uni I'd want it to be one of the more prestigious ones, since I don't really have roots there and might not like the culture as much.

 

[bidiboom]

... Does Jagiellonian really have a good reputation?...

Its the Top Universities in Europe 2011-2012 ranking of Times Higher Education:
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2011-2012/europe.html

There are only two schools from Poland, one is Jagiellonian(CMB approved), one is Warsaw(not CMB approved). And from Czech Rep. there is only Charles(CMB approved), as far as I can see. They are higher to many W-EU schools below them.

 

[med_heidelberg]

I think you have a shot; you'll never know till you apply. Did you do IB or AP in high school? If so, those courses would count towards your calculated Abischnitt. Don't worry about science requirements. There are no premed requirements, since you will have those courses as part of med school (6 year program). The students coming in out of high school only had high school level science anyway (however, the German Abitur is a lot more rigorous than US high schools unless you do AP or IB). If you have a Bachelor's degree from the US, that is sufficient to apply, regardless of the number of science courses you had.

If you have experience living in Germany, you could incorporate that into your personal statement. Did you do any sort of study abroad or scholarship program like DAAD or Fulbright? Either of those would help your application tremendously. Regardless of what you did there, you can use the PS as a way to set yourself apart from the other applicants. You could talk about your experience in economics (possibly spin the health economics angle) and what you did in Germany during those two years. I would also mention family ties and/or friends to show you are committed to the region and have acclimated to the culture, etc.

When I applied, there was no requirement for letters of recommendation. All they wanted were transcripts, the German language exam, and other standard stuff like a filled out form and copies of your passport. etc. I don't think a PS was required, but I did one anyway and personalized it for each school.

I recently graduated, so things may have changed a bit since I applied, but there was no fee to apply. So basically all you'd have to pay for is the transcripts from your school and postage. The main hurdle is going through each school's website since you will be applying directly (as a non EU citizen) and trying to find out what the heck they each want in terms of paperwork. It is a lot of work, but probably not as bad as applying to US schools. In terms of investment, it is mainly a time investment with a huge potential payoff.

In terms of quality of education, it is pretty uniform across the board. Some schools have a "reformed" curriculum, like Charite (I think), Heidelberg, Aachen, and Munich. This is more American style with earlier patient contact in the curriculum, PBL, OSCEs, and standardized patients. However, coming from any German university, even the lesser known ones, you will get excellent training. The worldwide reputation of universities like Berlin, Munich and Heidelberg comes in part from the intense amount of research that goes on at these places. Of course name helps for residency applications, but it's also well known that any German university will give you an excellent medical education if you can survive it.

If you are willing to stay in Germany to work afterwards, that would make going there a more solid option than wanting to come back to the US at all costs. However, if you are a non EU citizen you cannot get your Approbation in Germany and can only get a Berufserlaubnis, which means you can't open your own private practice and must work for a hospital or in someone else's practice. Since there is a doctor shortage and you are coming from the US (a "desired" country in the eyes of the German immigration department) you could easily get an unbefristete Arbeitserlaubnis and work in a hospital or group practice.

 

[bidiboom]

I found the admission requirements of Freiburg:
http://www.studium.uni-freiburg.de/..._zvs-en/bewerbung_zvs-en/view?set_language=en

And this is Tuebingen:
http://www.medizin.uni-tuebingen.de...ation+and+Admission/Students+from+Abroad.html

Greifswald:
http://www.medizin.uni-greifswald.de/index.php?id=14&L=1

Friedrich-Alexander:
http://www.uni-erlangen.org/international/students/full-degree/application.shtml

 

[beavis84]

...

 

[somerhave]

Med_Heidelberg covered most of the important stuff. I just wanted to add that I also think you have a pretty good shot. My background was similar to yours and I got into one of the top Unis (even thought they are all about the same level). Although, that was a while ago so things may have changed. Good Luck!!

 

[med_heidelberg]

Beavis84 I did not know that; thank you for correcting me. That is great news to all foreign doctors in Germany!

 

[bidiboom]

... I got into one of the top Unis (even thought they are all about the same level)...

Thats an important chunk of data, thank you Somerhave. But do you base your words on concrete data, or is it your (or public) impression? Can you develop this equality-in-quality point please?

 

[Katelena]

Greetings!!!
I'm new to this forum and not sure if I'm breaking protocol by posting the same reply twice on two different threads...

I'm in the process of completing my applications to various German University medical programs. I will graduate from an American High School with 8 AP credits in less than a month, and according to DAAD and Anabin combined with my SAT scores it should grant me direct admission to either a Science or Humanities degree program.
Over the last two years, I have sat in on classes in various gymnasiums, and have always been ahead of what the germans my age were studying, particularly in math and science. However, no one I have spoken to seems to think this is enough...at the International offices of the Universities I have visited they don't even think direct entry from an American High School is possible, then again they usually just refer me to their website.
I did visit the Zeugnisannerkennung Office in Munich and explained my situation, and they seemed to think it would be no problem.
All I have to do is get my transcripts notarized at the embassy. Although I have now completed the DSD II exam and can speak German fluently, I would still like to do a year of Studienkolleg. As far as I understand, I cannot apply directly to a Studienkolleg, instead the University offers you a place if they find that your qualifications are not equivalent to the Abitur. I'm just extremely nervous regarding the feasibility of actually being accepted.

Has anyone been successful in applying and getting into a German University directly after High School? I'm in the midst of writing the Motivationsschreiben... which is not like any of the typical essays your write for an American University application. Any advice????? Thanks in advance

 

[med_heidelberg]

Unless you get the internationally recognized International Baccalaureate Diploma (only select US high schools offer this option), you would need some college courses. IB is equivalent to the German Abitur. I do not know if AP courses qualify, but I can assure you that non-honors US high school courses are not par with the Abitur.

 

[Katelena]

Thanks for the reply! According to Anabin and DAAD as long as you have taken specific AP courses, I think they only require five they assign you direct entry to a German Uni. They also list that if you score a 1300 or higher on the SAT that you can gain direct admission. The AP courses are first year University level classes, they're not like Honors courses, you actually sit a National exam... in fact the AP hands out an International Diploma that's meant to be on par with the harder European finishing certificates as long as you have taken five AP's with an average score of 4 out of 5.
It seems that the State Zeugnisannerkennung Office is familiar with this...I just haven't had much luck with the people in the international offices at the Universities.
In America based on my scores and the number of AP's I completed, depending on the University I could receive between 27 and 30 credits... basically a year of University classes.
Have you ever met any students who entered a German Uni right out of high school?

 

[med_heidelberg]

Hi, no I haven't, but my sample size is also not very large. The people I know from the US who started med school in Germany (unfortunately none of them finished) all had either a college degree or had at least 2-3 years of college.

 

[med2023]

@briceryant : I am in a very similar state of mind / age when you started this thread. I was wondering if you could share your experience - did you apply eventually ? did you get it? are you studying in germany right now? Thx

 

[deleted716403]

The people I know from the US who started med school in Germany (unfortunately none of them finished) all had either a college degree or had at least 2-3 years of college.

What are the reasons that these US students didn't finish med school in Germany?