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Amy Tryon and Le Samurai - Injury/Abuse/Controversy at Rolex 2007

Discussion in 'Pre-Veterinary' started by hoodle, May 2, 2007.

  1. hoodle

    hoodle UC-Davis DVM/PhD 2+ Year Member

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    Dec 18, 2006
    Davis
    Hi everyone,
    My partner and I drove down to Kentucky to watch Rolex 2007, the massive 4-star, one of only 5 in the whole world (eventing, the equestrian sport). There was a massive accident there involving Amy Tryon, the overnight leader, who went clear x-c but whose horse, Le Samurai, injured himself before the last jump. She continued on and jumped the last jump, jumping off of him after the finish line. He blew out the tendons on his left front. She probably didn't know he was injured... could have felt like a boot slipping down, like a trip, like stepping on a shoe or a mild overreaching. It happened about 1 minute before the finish line, going at 25 mph, absolutely exhausted. On the other hand, people have alledged animal abuse and the FEI is looking into it. What do you think?

    Here's the video. it's pretty upsetting, but I doubt it felt as bad for her on top. I know her personally - I used to work at her barn - and I know how much she cares about horses, and so I am loathe to think she was cruel. She's probably absolutely destroyed about what's happened and I think she'll be her harshest critic. However, the issue is just on fire... tons of people are absolutely furious.

    http://www.pcplanets.com/videoyoutube-QqUPoQj5hV8.shtml
     
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  3. jnt179

    jnt179 2+ Year Member

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    Mar 28, 2007
    It is saying that the video is no longer available.
     
  4. VelcroSky

    VelcroSky U of MN Class of 2012 5+ Year Member

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    Feb 12, 2006
    Twin Cities, MN
    I dunno. I'm no Peta freak and I'm sure that there are plenty of cases in which the animals are very well taken care of...but am I the only one that's not real crazy about using animals for sporting events?
     
  5. thelarson

    thelarson MSU Pre-Vet Class of 2010 5+ Year Member

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    Feb 28, 2006
    East Lansing, MI
    In instances like this, I question whether such extreme sporting events with animals are necessary... maybe this pushes them too much. At the same time, however, since the horse is no longer used as a form of transportation in most parts of the world, if people did not use horses for sport and pleasure, they would be much less useful to our society alive. It is even possible that their main use would be as a food animal. Unfortunately for animals, if there is no other usefulness for them, they often become a food source.

    That said, I do not agree with "sporting" events where the primary purpose is to kill or injure the animal (as in bullfighting). Instances like this, where the animal is incidentally injured, are not intended and, depending upon the injury and the sport in question, are sometimes quite rare.
     
  6. bakaduin

    bakaduin UF CVM Class of 2012 2+ Year Member

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    Jan 9, 2007
    Like thelarson said, most animals have to have a purpose to be kept in society. People keep dogs and cats because they make good pets, we have sheep for wool and meat, cattle for meat and hides, horses are mostly for sport (some countries meat and a few for pleasure). If sports with horses was abandoned Id imagine their would be quite a few less horses in the world with only those who wanted them for trail riding being left. Ultimately you have to look at things froma broader perspective. Yes many horses are worked really hard and some end up injured and put down. But a lot of horses have a life because of such sports and the amount of jobs that sports horses give to the world is really helpful to the economy.
     
  7. texlaevis

    texlaevis 2+ Year Member

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    Jan 7, 2007
    Weslaco, TX
    actually, trail riding can be a serious sport as well!! there wouldn't be much niche for anything but "real, working" horses
     
  8. hoodle

    hoodle UC-Davis DVM/PhD 2+ Year Member

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    Dec 18, 2006
    Davis
    Eventing and other sports (grand prix showjumping, reining, etc) all function because the athletes (horses) LOVE it. If you've ever seen or participated, you would be struck by the absolute reverence with which horses are treated - it is all structured around their care. So much money and effort is poured into equine sports medicine. Horses like these - international competitors - are amazing, and would only get to this level because of their love of it.

    Lower-level horse sports and horse fancying (trail-riding, etc) have high levels of injury as well... horses (and people) get hurt. High level riding is high profile, and it's more risky... but there's also more skillful!

    People who say eventing is abuse... I just can't understand it. It shows ignorance of horses rather than respect. Horses pass daily trot-ups showing their soundness and fitness. No drugs are allowed. Horse health is paramount.
     
  9. VelcroSky

    VelcroSky U of MN Class of 2012 5+ Year Member

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    Feb 12, 2006
    Twin Cities, MN
    What do you all know about horse racing? The only knowledge I have is what I read in the book If Wishes Were Horses. That book was written in the 70's and the author described some pretty horrible conditions for horses - lots of euthanasia for weaker horses, lots of abuse, etc... I'm just curious if it is still like that.
     
  10. bakaduin

    bakaduin UF CVM Class of 2012 2+ Year Member

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    Jan 9, 2007
    I wouldn't say thats exactly true. Its paramount as long as its not effecting earnings. For instance, if health was number one, I doubt they would race horses as 2-3 year olds and instead wait until they were older and had maximal bone density to reduce injury. But that would mean years and years of extra feed before the horse produced any income and would never happen.
     
  11. hoodle

    hoodle UC-Davis DVM/PhD 2+ Year Member

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    Dec 18, 2006
    Davis
    I'm talking about equestrian sports, not money-bound racing. I put racing in a different category. Things that happen at the World Equestrian Games or the Olympics are very different than money-centred, bet-centered racing... Horse sports are an art, racing is money.
     
  12. Orthonut

    Orthonut Garryowen 5+ Year Member

    What is your point? He ruptured the tendon XC-it's not like she could gain anything by pushing him through to finish XC, he's still out of the overall competition.

    If you really cared about her you wouldn't be putting up rumours about her and her horse on an internet prevet forum, you would be calling her and asking if there was anything she needed. All you're doing here is providing fuel for anonymous people who know nothing about her and her competition to speculate and flame her.

    And if you were actually involved in horse racing, you would realize that horse health IS paramount. If your horse breaks down it's done for-no more winning races for you.

    It's pretty dumb for you to make such blanket statements about horse racing and other sports when you obviously don't know the first thing about them.
     
  13. bakaduin

    bakaduin UF CVM Class of 2012 2+ Year Member

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    Jan 9, 2007
    Agreed.
     
  14. KittenKiller

    KittenKiller chop suey 7+ Year Member

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    Jan 25, 2007
    Kennett Square, PA
    I don't think hoodle said he/she DIDNT call her and offer help. Hoodle merely was asking us what we thought and stimulate some interesting debate. These are the exact kinds of questions many of us are going to have to deal with someday, and its fun and instructive to discuss these kinds of questions now. And if you think Amy Tryon's is coming on the prevet boards to flame her, thats a little conspiracy theoryesque ;)
     
  15. hoodle

    hoodle UC-Davis DVM/PhD 2+ Year Member

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    Dec 18, 2006
    Davis
    actually, she did complete xc- that's the problem; she jumped the last jump on a (retrospectively) obviously lame horse. She then withdrew from the competition immediately afterwards. did you read my initial post?

    I'm not putting up rumors; you can find more information online. I'm simply interested in people's responses, if they are interested in animal ethics, equine medicine, or sports medicine.

    Clearly, yes - if you have a winning horse. If you are training a barn full of 2-yr-olds, you're unlikely to care about the ones who don't seem fast/likely winners. If you go to the back of any racing facility, you'll see a huge discrepancy between the winners, who are treated like kings, and the ones who are doing badly - whose treatment often verges on abuse through neglect.

    I think you come across as the dumb one here, or at least the un-thoughtful one. Why jump to personal attacks so quickly? is there something wrong with reasoned discussion that it is so anathema to you?
     
  16. sofficat

    sofficat AU CVM c/o 11 2+ Year Member

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    Apr 12, 2007
    does anyone know where we can find this video? i think it would be interesting to see. this forum is up b/c it is "a hot topic." no personal attacks should be made.... we should be discussing the topic.
     
  17. VelcroSky

    VelcroSky U of MN Class of 2012 5+ Year Member

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    Feb 12, 2006
    Twin Cities, MN
    Anathema is a noun. You used it as an adjective. :mad:

    I'm sorry. I just thought I'd take a shot since the flaming on this board has been stepping up lately. :laugh:
     
  18. 2011vet

    2011vet 2+ Year Member

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    Gainesville, Fl
    Actually, if you look it up on dictionary.com, anathema is used in that way. One of the examples is "that subject is anathema to him."
     
  19. VelcroSky

    VelcroSky U of MN Class of 2012 5+ Year Member

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    Feb 12, 2006
    Twin Cities, MN
    I respectfully retract my statement.
     
  20. PAThbrd

    PAThbrd LA Surgery Resident Moderator Emeritus 7+ Year Member

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    Aug 9, 2004
    Massachusetts
    Hey guys,

    Just a friendly reminder to play nice and stay on topic before things get out of hand.

    Thanks,
    Deanna
    SDN Vet Forums Moderator
     
  21. Hollycozza

    Hollycozza 5+ Year Member

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    Oct 30, 2006
    New South Wales
    Surely she wouldn't have intentionally ridden on while the horse was lame.

    It seems unlikely she would be cruel to her horse, but even if she didn't care about the horse, surely jumping on a lame horse would also be crazy from a $$$ perspective as I imagine the horse would be valuable.

    Poor lady and poor horse.....
     
  22. Orthonut

    Orthonut Garryowen 5+ Year Member

    You are the dumb one. You are the one mouthing off about something you OBVIOUSLY know NOTHING about.

    FYI I DO have a barn full of 2 and 3 year olds. We raise and race Thoroughbreds and Arabians. 95% of our horses go on to compete in 3 day, dressage, endurance, or the pleasure show ring. The other 5% become broodstock or backyard pets. I've worked for several major breeding farms both as veterinary personnel and as a direct employee.

    If you had any common sense at all you would realize that the person whose livelihood depends on the horse being at its peak of health is the one most likely to want the best for the horse.

    Go back to your ostrich hole. Stick your head in the sand and pretend that you know everything about horse racing because of what you saw on some PeTA commercial. It is people like YOU that give horse racing a bad name.
     
  23. PdxYOSHI

    PdxYOSHI Oregon State 2011 2+ Year Member

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    Jan 20, 2007
    Oregon
    Whoa, how about chilling out and knocking off the childish name calling. No need to get nasty here; remember, we like everyone.
     
  24. Capella

    Capella OK-State 2011 2+ Year Member

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    Nov 29, 2006
    Oklahoma
    Orthonut hatz n00bs
     
  25. Bill59

    Bill59 Member 10+ Year Member

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    He was clearly lame -- his head was bobbing and he wanted to trot. In retrospect the rider should have pulled him up immediately instead of asking him to continue, regardless of how close they were to the finish. A rider at that level has to know that this was more than just a ding or shoe. The judges at the time obviously agreed because she got disqualified not withdrawn.

    That said, I think it was an error in judgement not any sort of intentional misconduct -- like drugging a lame horse to pass inspection.

    Regarding horses in sports, a horse can blow a tendon (or even break a leg) just running around in a pasture.
     
  26. usea112

    usea112

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    Amy Tryon has done eventing for many years. I am pretty sure that she respects everything in eventing and deffidently knows not to drug her horse. Anything can happen in eventing from a horse being completely sound to going completely lame, trust me I am an eventer myself. I do not think Amy should be blamed for this, because it is just one of the unfortunate causes in eventing.

    Also, I'd like to mention that people who event would like to win and would like the money, but that is not all they believe in. Making it around a course like Rolex proves to people that you are a true rider and that you and your horse are working together and respect eachother fairly. Most of the horses love eventing, and you can see it by their personality when you reach that dressage ring or cross country field. Eventing is a sport of trust. You have to trust your horse and the horse has to trust you. If you do not have this trust you have almost no chance of winning or even finishing.

    As I said above, injuries like Le Samurai is just one of the dangers of eventing. It could happen to any horse out there, even if the horse was going only beginner novice (first level in recognized events). I wish good luck to Amy and Le Samurai and hope for the best recovery.
     
  27. thelarson

    thelarson MSU Pre-Vet Class of 2010 5+ Year Member

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    Feb 28, 2006
    East Lansing, MI
    Honestly, none of us can say whether she really knew the horse was lame because none of us have been in her exact position with the exact same circumstances. While I am doubtful that she would have pushed the horse if she knew it was lame, none of us here can make that call. Maybe it should have been obvious to the rider, but that doesn't mean that it was.
     
  28. Bill59

    Bill59 Member 10+ Year Member

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    Jan 4, 2006
    Nobody is blaming the rider for causing the injury. But under FEI rules, riding an exhausted, lame or injured horse is considered abuse. And that's why the FEI is investigating it.
     
  29. bakaduin

    bakaduin UF CVM Class of 2012 2+ Year Member

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    Orthonut- Theres nothing wrong with getting into a good debate but no need to name call.

    Like I said in my previous post though that you didnt respond to....
     
  30. wildfocus

    wildfocus DVM/PhD student 5+ Year Member

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    Nov 14, 2006
    Rocky Mountain High
    it looks like you can see the video only by buying it from NBC :mad: ...

    i can't comment on what happened as i know nothing about horses and refuse to purchase the video, but ms. tyron is a world-renowned and well-respected athlete and i just can't imagine that she would have done something like this on purpose. is it not possible that she just misread her animal? that certainly happens to the best of us.

    video for purchase: http://www.mediazone.com/channel/nbcsports/equestrian/index.jsp
     
  31. KittenKiller

    KittenKiller chop suey 7+ Year Member

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    Jan 25, 2007
    Kennett Square, PA
    Can we feed the troll please mommy? :D
     
  32. JIKJen124

    JIKJen124 5+ Year Member

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    Cincinnati
    There will be NBC coverage of the Rolex airing this weekend, I'm not sure exactly when. Check your local listings if you're interested...
     
  33. Emio

    Emio Fudge Bane 7+ Year Member

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    Columbus
    today May 6th, 5 pm. they are considering not airing the mishap. i hear usea is furious. maybe usea112 can fill us in on that?

    Orthonut, i'm glad to hear that your barn obviously takes good care of their horses. however, unless your head is in an ostrich hole, you can't honestly believe that every other horse operation takes just as good care. i'll stop there, but i've seen it... horses aren't always taken care of.
     
  34. HorseMom

    HorseMom

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    Hi, new here with a friendly post.

    As much as I don't want to review this, I need to. :(
    On which day/event did the accident take place?

    26 AprilDressage (Morning) 26 AprilDressage (Afternoon) 27 AprilDressage (Morning) 27 AprilDressage (Afternoon) 28 AprilCross-Country (Morning) 28 AprilCross-Country (Afternoon) 29 AprilStadium Jumping
     
  35. Bill59

    Bill59 Member 10+ Year Member

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    Jan 4, 2006
    cross country, afternoon
     
  36. HorseMom

    HorseMom

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    May 11, 2007
    Thanks
     
  37. HorseMom

    HorseMom

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    I've gone through the replay frame by frame, close-up, which was unnecessary after viewing Le Samurai's bad step only once. I watched every step he took after the obvious (but not initial injury) as well as Amy's facial expressions.

    This is being investigated and rightly so.
     
  38. HorseRider

    HorseRider

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    Amy Tryon deserves to be banned from eventing for life or at the very least, for a very long time.

    It was blatantly obvious the horse was very lame. It tried to come back into trot, in which case she should have at least let it so she could evaluate the situation (and work out if it was just a few lame steps like from a shoe pull) but she is clearly seen booting the horse back into a canter and pushing for the final fence. Jumping a 3 legged horse over a 4ft fence is something absolutely NO horse rider would ever do, except Amy it seems...... She made a VERY VERY bad decision. There is no excuse for what she did. The odd person says she cares for her horses, Im sorry - but where is the care in this? Its disgraceful and sickening.

    On the note of horses being asked to do these sports. I event (obviously not to the level Amy was at, but still to a decent level), but I care so much for my horse. If he even took one lame step then I would pull up immediately, as I believe 99% would. Eventing does have risks, of course it does. But more people & horses are killed just going for a simple ride down the road or schooling at home. A lot of horses can kill themselves just out in the field going through a fence! As long as every risk is minimised and we as riders make sure our horses are fit enough and well cared for then I see nothing wrong with the sport. It's only people like Amy who give it a bad name and bring it into the media.
     
  39. Please be considerate of the fact that none of us know the horse or the exact feelings and circumstances that this rider is under. Perhaps her horse is on the lazier side and needs encouragement at the end of his XC rides. Albeit at that level its rare, but it is possible. Don't bad mouth people you don't know based on something you have seen on TV or as a spectator. You are not behind the scenes and do not have intimate knowledge of the whole situation.

    As for racing, be aware that in all sports there is good and bad. Take for instance Barbaro, who broke down after only racing a few races and was loved and cared for until it was apparent there was no saving him. There is some abuse, but there is abuse of all things (even this forum). While we do race our horses early in this country we do not have a much greater rate of horses breaking down then they do in other countries. Do more than research before you assume things. Experience them and know them thoroughly before you accuse an entire industry of being bad.
     
  40. Emio

    Emio Fudge Bane 7+ Year Member

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    Columbus
    yeah, and you know what happened? his jockey pulled him up and DISMOUNTED in the midst of the horse's biggest career race.

    we know injuries happen, we're upset ms. tryon not only didn't do a darn thing about it, but obviously PUSHED her horse to go farther.
     
  41. HorseRider

    HorseRider

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    No, it is NOT possible that the reason she kicked on could have been because her horse was "on the lazier side and needs encouragament"! Oh my god, what rubbish! Are you serious?! The horse CLEARLY stumbled and went onto 3 legs for christ sake. It TRIED to trot, but AT booted it back into canter and made it jump that last fence. ANY rider can feel when a horse is even slightly odd feeling, let alone cantering on 3 flipping legs! So please don't make me laugh by even suggesting it. None of us need to know what happened "behind the scenes", all we needed to see was right in front of us. If any of my horses even trip slightly, I instantly let them slow down so I can work out what happened - sometimes horses do catch a shoe or trip a little, go lame for say 3 strides then are fine again. But AT did not even let her horse come back to trot.
     
  42. silverelf

    silverelf Tufts Class of 2011 2+ Year Member

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    MA
    Do you pull up at national competitions...or in the training ring? I have seen quite a few horses trip and stumble in televised events, and RARELY see a rider pull up, unless they are almost unseated.

    But seriously, the yelling at each other isn't going to solve anything and you can take either side you like, but nobody here is Amy Tryon and nobody here was on that horse when it stumbled and nobody here knows what she felt or thought SO STOP SAYING THAT YOU ARE OHMIGAWD OBVIOUSLY RIGHT.
     
  43. HorseRider

    HorseRider

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    I never said I would "pull up" (ie. stop), I said I would allow my horse to find his footing again and not kick him on for a few strides so I could make sure he was ok to carry on. Amys horse tried to trot but she booted it back into canter again, she should have at the VERY least allowed it to trot a few strides and analyse the situation. Yes horses do stumble a little XC, but rarely do they fall back into trot and canter away again on 3 legs!!

    No, we are not Amy. We weren't riding at the time. Fact is that is was blatantly obvious what she was feeling. The feeling she would have got is that he was NOT right. Simple! Forcing a 3 legged horse over a 4ft solid fence is IMO the worst horsemanship I've ever seen.

    Of course this arguement is heated and we're going to yell, its a VERY sensitive topic! If you don't feel strongly about this then clearly you cannot call yourself a lover of horses.

    I await the 25th with baited breath. I expect she will get a long-term ban, if she doesn't then the FEI will lose the eventing worlds respect completely. If she ever gets back to eventing after her ban, she won't be welcome in many countries...... Germany already told her not to compete at Luhmenan (sp) and us in the UK will not welcome her by any means. Looks like she'll have to stay in the USA!
     
  44. silverelf

    silverelf Tufts Class of 2011 2+ Year Member

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    Jan 9, 2007
    MA
    well, that was pretty b****y

    but thanks for judging me! always appreciated! :rolleyes:
     
  45. Amy1507

    Amy1507

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    Sorry to bring up an oldish thread, but this really hits a nerve with me.

    If anyone wants to view the clip for free, go here:
    http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=664abo2

    There is no way in hell that Amy Tryon did not notice that her horse was lame. I'm digusted by her actions. Some people try to defend her even after they see how blatently lame the horse was, they say the horse was "locked" onto the last fence. This is clearly not the case. The horse tries numerous times to break into a trot and is forced to continue, nevermind the fact that there was a bend before the last fence (the horse didn't even see the jump that early)

    I hope she gets severely punished, sorry it I offend anyone, but this was disgusting. She calls herself a horsewoman? No true horse person, even with her experience would dream of doing such a thing.
     
  46. cubs11

    cubs11 2+ Year Member

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    May 6, 2007
    thank you for posting the video, i had tried to locate it a few weeks ago, but it had been taken down in most places for copyright and "investigation" purposes. i don't know much about equestrian, nor do i know anything about amy, but from watching the video it breaks my heart that it was even risked to continue through the final jump. as soon as the horse goes lame, he never lifts his head again. he kept his head down and appeared to shake back and forth as if he was signaling the rider to stop. again, i don't know anything about amy or this particular sporting event, but that's just what it looks like to me while watching the video. i'm not taking sides in this argument either way b/c most of you know A LOT about both the sport and the rider and have a leg to stand on while sharing your opinions from both sides, whereas i don't. :) all i'm saying is...it was an unfortunate situation that occurred, especially for those involved and the horse that was lost. :rolleyes: whether the rider knew the horse was lame or not, it's extremely unfortunate that the fatal injury couldn't have been avoided.
     
  47. RosieMoll3

    RosieMoll3 2+ Year Member

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    Fort Collins, CO
    I think the guy in the background going "UGH...UGH" sums it up.
     
  48. GallopRealyFast

    GallopRealyFast 2+ Year Member

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    May 24, 2007
    or....nevermind I won't let my perverted side speak.:p

    If you're good enough to ride in the Rolex then I think you should notice if your horse is crippled. That was nothing unnoticeable for a Rolex level rider. Horses stumble of course but you can tell within a few strides if they come out of it or not. He did like 30 dead lame strides before the fence. jeeze. The FEI should definately report that as abuse. Funny before I decided to become a vet my goal in life was to ride in the Rolex and the Olympics, but then I realized I don't have the 4th level dressage horse or the warmblood that jumps 6'. I love my rescued TB he's better than any $400,000 horse out there.:love:
     
  49. KittenKiller

    KittenKiller chop suey 7+ Year Member

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    Jan 25, 2007
    Kennett Square, PA
    quoted for truth. Its also amusing the commentator is totally clueless and keeps jabbering on mindlessly.
     
  50. sofficat

    sofficat AU CVM c/o 11 2+ Year Member

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    Apr 12, 2007
    thanks for getting the video on here. i didn't comment before b/c i didn't see what happened. even my husband (not a horse person) was like.... wow, that's bad. at that level of riding, you should know- period. the very end (when she was getting off of him) broke my heart.
     
  51. Amy1507

    Amy1507

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    Jun 27, 2007
    Here, here! I have 3 of them :D

    Btw the FEI hearing has already taken place, the decision is supposed to be made sometime next month. She definately needs to be banned from the sport, just my opinion.
     

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