An excellent read for the Anti-URM peeps (or anyone else)

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NotASerialKiller

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I'm confused, why do you think this is anti-URM? Because he was a B student? Because URM policies haven't magically fixed everything?

If anything this article tells the story of how more has to be done to help poor black students who are at a systematic disadvantage in college even if they get there. The problem lies in how high schools and colleges support these students, not that URM status is bad. If anything the fact that the numbers aren't going up in spite of URM status means that more has to be done, not less by abolishing it.
 

BurghMed

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Threads like this come up a lot (every 2 weeks or so). I also hate jumping into threads like this because they always go nowhere and spin into the depths of hell.

It should be no surprise why a random school in Louisiana is producing great medical professionals. I think it's clear to anyone who attends an elite school as a premed, that it's simply hard as hell for anyone (black, purple or white) to get a good gpa without busting your balls and becoming depressed and feeling dejected. Surely that's not the case at lower tier schools, where getting a higher gpa is easier.

Obviously the goals of this school are noble, and they are succeeding beyond belief in the most amazing way possible. I just think it should be clear to everyone why URMs who attend Ivy League schools, for example, struggle to become medical professionals. Often students are competing against others who have attended far more rigorous high schools and are better prepared.

Interesting read, but I think it made clear as to why those URMs at the top institutions arguably struggle more than those URMs at the bottom, in terms of getting into medical school (gladwell speaks about this more in depth)
 
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I'm confused, why do you think this is anti-URM? Because he was a B student? Because URM policies haven't magically fixed everything?

If anything this article tells the story of how more has to be done to help poor black students who are at a systematic disadvantage in college even if they get there. The problem lies in how high schools and colleges support these students, not that URM status is bad. If anything the fact that the numbers aren't going up in spite of URM status means that more has to be done, not less by abolishing it.
That's… not what I meant.
 
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tenblackalps

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In my entire life, whether growing up visiting doctors, or in college shadowing physicians or volunteering at the hospital, I have only interacted with 2 black doctors, and this is coming from someone who grew up in a really urban area. The need for URM status is clear to me anecdotally. The article was good read about Mr. Francis and Dr. Johnson, thanks for posting OP :thumbup:
 
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In my entire life, whether growing up visiting doctors, or in college shadowing physicians or volunteering at the hospital, I have only interacted with 2 black doctors, and this is coming from someone who grew up in a really urban area. The need for URM status is clear to me anecdotally. The article was good read about Mr. Francis and Dr. Johnson, thanks for posting OP :thumbup:
No problem! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
 

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I stocked up on popcorn! Perfect

Anyways; This is the 21st century, it is 2015..Stop these racist policies!
I don't think there needs to be special consideration for URMs, nor should we make it harder for ORMs..
We are all humans, we should be judged by our merit as an individual not by our racial identity.

Also saying that black students do not get the same quality of education is a bunch of hogwash.. You have people whose 2nd or maybe 3rd language is English who succeed academically. If they can do it, any American can.

If an illegal migrant worker such as Dr.Q can go to a community college, then get into UC Berkeley, and then Harvard med school any American born person who tries hard enough can.
It's all about how much effort you put into your education.. It does not matter if your HS was in the ghetto, or in a rich neighborhood..
 

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I stocked up on popcorn! Perfect

Anyways; This is the 21st century, it is 2015..Stop these racist policies!
I don't think there needs to be special consideration for URMs, nor should we make it harder for ORMs..
We are all humans, we should be judged by our merit as an individual not by our racial identity.

Also saying that black students do not get the same quality of education is a bunch of hogwash.. You have people whose 2nd or maybe 3rd language is English who succeed academically. If they can do it, any American can.

If an illegal migrant worker such as Dr.Q can go to a community college, then get into UC Berkeley, and then Harvard med school any American born person who tries hard enough can.
It's all about how much effort you put into your education.. It does not matter if your HS was in the ghetto, or in a rich neighborhood..
 
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I stocked up on popcorn! Perfect

Anyways; This is the 21st century, it is 2015..Stop these racist policies!
I don't think there needs to be special consideration for URMs, nor should we make it harder for ORMs..
We are all humans, we should be judged by our merit as an individual not by our racial identity.

Also saying that black students do not get the same quality of education is a bunch of hogwash.. You have people whose 2nd or maybe 3rd language is English who succeed academically. If they can do it, any American can.

If an illegal migrant worker such as Dr.Q can go to a community college, then get into UC Berkeley, and then Harvard med school any American born person who tries hard enough can.
It's all about how much effort you put into your education.. It does not matter if your HS was in the ghetto, or in a rich neighborhood..
1. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you didn't read the article.
2. How about, you know, reading the article before commenting?
3. wat
4. What does any of this have to do with anything?
5. Read the article.
 

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Also saying that black students do not get the same quality of education is a bunch of hogwash.
I'm glad to see you've looked at a half century of educational data to back this claim up.
 

NotASerialKiller

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It's all about how much effort you put into your education.. It does not matter if your HS was in the ghetto, or in a rich neighborhood..
So it can be inferred from this statement that if any group is poorly represented in higher education it means that people from that group just aren't putting the effort in, correct? I mean you'd have to believe that based on what you just said.
 

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I'm glad to see you've looked at a half century of educational data to back this claim up.
He's using his personal experiences with the West Baltimore public school system to back up his claim.
 

PREMEDitated22

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:troll::troll::troll::troll:
I stocked up on popcorn! Perfect

Anyways; This is the 21st century, it is 2015..Stop these racist policies!
I don't think there needs to be special consideration for URMs, nor should we make it harder for ORMs..
We are all humans, we should be judged by our merit as an individual not by our racial identity.

Also saying that black students do not get the same quality of education is a bunch of hogwash.. You have people whose 2nd or maybe 3rd language is English who succeed academically. If they can do it, any American can.

If an illegal migrant worker such as Dr.Q can go to a community college, then get into UC Berkeley, and then Harvard med school any American born person who tries hard enough can.
It's all about how much effort you put into your education.. It does not matter if your HS was in the ghetto, or in a rich neighborhood..
 

PREMEDitated22

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He's not a troll, he just believes ridiculous things and posts his theories on SDN all the time. Freshmen, y'know?
He's trolling cause he knows the arguments already and still continues to post those theories just to get a rise out of people. That's what he wants...
 
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"It has some 3,000 students and consistently produces more black students who apply to and then graduate from medical school than any other institution in the country."
"its entire science program is housed in a single complex."
‘‘The question always comes: ‘Well, how did this happen"

‘"We decided we could do something about it. And what we did, what our faculty did, was just plain common sense.’’
"created as a result of the nation’s system of legal segregation"
"With black students now attending schools that were once off limits"

"When that medical-school report came across Francis’ desk all those years ago, he was certain of one thing: The small number of black students entering medical school was not a reflection of their capabilities. . It was a reflection of the shoddy schooling"

I got bored 1/3 of the way through, but i'm sure I could have kept going.
 

Gauss44

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The way I see it, if an ENTIRE CATEGORY of healthy intelligent people are NOT getting into medical school, graduate school, college, or a certain profession, and they want to, there IS A PROBLEM. Where and what that problem is might be more difficult to specify, but what is certain is that SOMETHING IS KEEPING THEM OUT. There is an obstacle or obstacles somewhere down the line that they are facing that groups that get in are not facing.
 

Dr.Sticks

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He's not a troll, he just believes ridiculous things and posts his theories on SDN all the time. Freshmen, y'know?
This is probably the most accurate reply, except it is not ridiculous.
I am not a polemicist folks!
I am very egalitarian in nature; I do not believe in standardized testing, I do not believe in judging a person based of who his/her family is, what his/her race is, etc. I am a purely merit based person, and I value each person as an individual.

So it can be inferred from this statement that if any group is poorly represented in higher education it means that people from that group just aren't putting the effort in, correct? I mean you'd have to believe that based on what you just said.
It could also mean they have no interest in higher education..
How many Amish apply to law school, b school, med school, etc?

He's trolling cause he knows the arguments already and still continues to post those theories just to get a rise out of people. That's what he wants...
I repeat, I am not a polemicist.
I'm glad to see you've looked at a half century of educational data to back this claim up.
Rural schools tend to be a lot worse.. (student body is largely white)
Just look at West Virginia for example..
1. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you didn't read the article.
2. How about, you know, reading the article before commenting?
3. wat
4. What does any of this have to do with anything?
5. Read the article.
I did read it..
I refuse to acknowledge it though, I refuse to divide America.
 
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WingedOx

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Rural schools tend to be a lot worse.. (student body is largely white)
Just look at West Virginia for example..
I'm glad you have data to actually back this up outside of your own sheltered experiences and biases.
 
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The way I see it, if an ENTIRE CATEGORY of healthy intelligent people are NOT getting into medical school, graduate school, college, or a certain profession, and they want to, there IS A PROBLEM. Where and what that problem is might be more difficult to specify, but what is certain is that SOMETHING IS KEEPING THEM OUT. There is an obstacle or obstacles somewhere down the line that they are facing that groups that get in are not facing.
The disadvantages groups of people face go FAR BEYOND race. Treating this in terms of race alone is like putting a bandaid on the levees during hurricane katrina and then setting off tnt there. It doesn't do enough and just aggravates the issue in other ways like is someone a mixed background enough of a race to be considered URM and what if someone doesn't look that background? (I have significant native american ancestry and don't look it at all). Saying no just leads to tacit discrimination, which I've experienced.

Furthermore, diversity should mean way more than race in medical school admissions.

I really long for the day when we as a society can progress past race.
 
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TheUPSIDEdown

The disadvantages groups of people face go FAR BEYOND race.

Furthermore, diversity should mean way more than race in medical school admissions.

I really long for the day when we as a society can progress past race.
You've hit it on the head here. Race is not the sole indicator of someone's background nor should it be the deciding factor in any sort of admissions. Personally, I believe race should be removed from admissions criteria. Stop using your race as a crutch for a handout and judge things like socioeconomic background, familial education history/background, and other hardships that are certainly more thorough, concrete, tangible, and less blatantly stereotypical than race -- the current be all end all of admissions.

There's no question that minorities need a stronger representation in the medical field and I acknowledge that URM status addresses this for issues such as patient trust and the related quality of care. But is it then acceptable to marginalizing ORM students of equal or greater quality? I don't think so. Not on race alone. But who knows, maybe this is the best way to do it?
 

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I'm tired of debating the merits (or lack thereof) of affirmative action. All I will say is this: if you can't see that medical school admissions commitees are purposefully discriminating against Asian applicants, then you are an idiot.
 
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StudyLater

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If the numbers are right, they'd all make good candidates. Having a race rainbow is just politically favorable for the school, at that point. The school is still breeding potential future donors. It's a win-win. I'd do the same if I owned a school.
 

nolookpass

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What do you think about the fact that East Asian and Jewish immigrants do not require such "help" even though they too have historically faced vicious persecution? They are in fact two very successful minority groups.
Their circumstances are much different than the circumstances of African Americans. East Asians/Jewish immigrants came to this country willingly. AA did not. Add this fact with the struggle AA have had to face in this country, which has caused them to be disadvantaged you can see why some should require such "help."

It's a never ending cycle, and affirmative action helps try to break this cycle. A lot of african americans are in a lower socioeconomic bracket because of how this country was built. Try getting out of that sort of environment without any help.
 
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You've hit it on the head here. Race is not the sole indicator of someone's background nor should it be the deciding factor in any sort of admissions. Personally, I believe race should be removed from admissions criteria. Stop using your race as a crutch for a handout and judge things like socioeconomic background, familial education history/background, and other hardships that are certainly more thorough, concrete, tangible, and less blatantly stereotypical than race -- the current be all end all of admissions.

There's no question that minorities need a stronger representation in the medical field and I acknowledge that URM status addresses this for issues such as patient trust and the related quality of care. But is it then acceptable to marginalizing ORM students of equal or greater quality? I don't think so. Not on race alone. But who knows, maybe this is the best way to do it?
Exactly. It also fosters and creates further racism. You don't solve inequality and racism with more inequality and racism. I wish more people would realize this. Just because it tips things the other way doesn't mean it isn't racist and discriminatory.
 
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Their circumstances are much different than the circumstances of African Americans. East Asians/Jewish immigrants came to this country willingly. AA did not. Add this fact with the struggle AA have had to face in this country, which has caused them to be disadvantaged you can see why some should require such "help."

It's a never ending cycle, and affirmative action helps try to break this cycle. A lot of african americans are in a lower socioeconomic bracket because of how this country was built. Try getting out of that sort of environment without any help.
East Asians and Jews started in a very low SES as well, and they were able to get out of it within a couple of generations.

Slavery is no doubt a terrible crime, as is genocide and war. I don't think you can so confidently say that other minorities simply haven't suffered enough.

Please explain to me how affirmative action has helped African Americans when in many ways they are worse off today than they were 40 years ago.
 
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The way I see it, if an ENTIRE CATEGORY of healthy intelligent people are NOT getting into medical school, graduate school, college, or a certain profession, and they want to, there IS A PROBLEM. Where and what that problem is might be more difficult to specify, but what is certain is that SOMETHING IS KEEPING THEM OUT. There is an obstacle or obstacles somewhere down the line that they are facing that groups that get in are not facing.
They're not as intelligent as the groups who are getting in. We know this because everyone takes a g-loaded standardized test to get in, and they don't do as well on it.
 

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The way I see it, if an ENTIRE CATEGORY of healthy intelligent people are NOT getting into medical school, graduate school, college, or a certain profession, and they want to, there IS A PROBLEM. Where and what that problem is might be more difficult to specify, but what is certain is that SOMETHING IS KEEPING THEM OUT. There is an obstacle or obstacles somewhere down the line that they are facing that groups that get in are not facing.
Yeah the something is an objective exam where you answer questions and it tells you how many you got right compared to everyone else
 

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Please explain to me how affirmative action has helped African Americans when in many ways they are worse off today than they were 40 years ago.
It's almost as if there are other variables affecting the AA population at play in modern America... shocking I know.
 
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Just thought I'd round up all the covert/overt racist comments to save everybody time. Educate yourselves and open your minds. Gain perspective. I know how hard it is to be caucasian or asian in this country. I don't know how you do it.


The disadvantages groups of people face go FAR BEYOND race. Treating this in terms of race alone is like putting a bandaid on the levees during hurricane katrina and then setting off tnt there. It doesn't do enough and just aggravates the issue in other ways like is someone a mixed background enough of a race to be considered URM and what if someone doesn't look that background? (I have significant native american ancestry and don't look it at all). Saying no just leads to tacit discrimination, which I've experienced.

Furthermore, diversity should mean way more than race in medical school admissions.

I really long for the day when we as a society can progress past race.
You've hit it on the head here. Race is not the sole indicator of someone's background nor should it be the deciding factor in any sort of admissions. Personally, I believe race should be removed from admissions criteria. Stop using your race as a crutch for a handout and judge things like socioeconomic background, familial education history/background, and other hardships that are certainly more thorough, concrete, tangible, and less blatantly stereotypical than race -- the current be all end all of admissions.

There's no question that minorities need a stronger representation in the medical field and I acknowledge that URM status addresses this for issues such as patient trust and the related quality of care. But is it then acceptable to marginalizing ORM students of equal or greater quality? I don't think so. Not on race alone. But who knows, maybe this is the best way to do it?
What do you think about the fact that East Asian and Jewish immigrants do not require such "help" even though they too have historically faced vicious persecution? They are in fact two very successful minority groups.
I'm tired of debating the merits (or lack thereof) of affirmative action. All I will say is this: if you can't see that medical school admissions commitees are purposefully discriminating against Asian applicants, then you are an idiot.
If the numbers are right, they'd all make good candidates. Having a race rainbow is just politically favorable for the school, at that point. The school is still breeding potential future donors. It's a win-win. I'd do the same if I owned a school.
Exactly. It also fosters and creates further racism. You don't solve inequality and racism with more inequality and racism. I wish more people would realize this. Just because it tips things the other way doesn't mean it isn't racist and discriminatory.
This was not an excellent read
East Asians and Jews started in a very low SES as well, and they were able to get out of it within a couple of generations.

Slavery is no doubt a terrible crime, as is genocide and war. I don't think you can so confidently say that other minorities simply haven't suffered enough.

Please explain to me how affirmative action has helped African Americans when in many ways they are worse off today than they were 40 years ago.
They're not as intelligent as the groups who are getting in. We know this because everyone takes a g-loaded standardized test to get in, and they don't do as well on it.
Yeah the something is an objective exam where you answer questions and it tells you how many you got right compared to everyone else
 

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Just thought I'd round up all the covert/overt racist comments to save everybody time. Educate yourselves and open your minds. Gain perspective. I know how hard it is to be caucasian or asian in this country. I don't know how you do it.
Ah acting superior to your opponents thrown in with ad hominem attacks, that always makes your argument look solid and not on shaky ground at all.
You really shouldn't start these threads if you don't know what you are talking about. It only makes you and those who support your position look foolish.
 
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Doudline

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They're not as intelligent as the groups who are getting in. We know this because everyone takes a g-loaded standardized test to get in, and they don't do as well on it.
Certain groups do not perform as well as others on IQ -and other standardized- tests. Blacks -and other ethnic minorities- are among those groups.

You seem to believe that some innate genetic attribute causes this. Women used to underperform too as a group. Did this mean women were intrinsically dumber than men? No. It means they had little access to education, and their socioeconomic status was much lower than that of men. Measures were taken, and women do not underperform anymore.

You want blacks to score higher on the SAT and the MCAT? Improve the social security net and access to education. Grant them better access to college and professional schools (even if it means some highly favored minorities are prejudiced against in the short run).
 
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Just thought I'd round up all the covert/overt racist comments to save everybody time. Educate yourselves and open your minds. Gain perspective. I know how hard it is to be caucasian or asian in this country. I don't know how you do it.
You can call my posts racism, but they aren't. You're fighting fire with fire, racism with racism. You need to look at the double standards and develop an ability to see things from both sides.
 
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