Anesthesiologist nominated as surgeon general

[pgg]

Meh, I've never in my life felt victimized because I was white. I'm not from South Africa, but I used to know an Australian who grew up there. She had some stories. I'm not even a poor white guy from rural Alabama or the rust belt. Maybe tomorrow some black kid will sucker punch me in the back of the head, but probably not.

My first name isn't Tyrone so I'm pretty sure every resume and application I've ever submitted has at least been looked at. I don't think anyone's ever tailed me in a retail establishment, but maybe they did and I just didn't notice.

I got a bull**** traffic ticket once for making a left turn from the center lane (cop thought I was using the center lane to pass traffic) but as irritated as I was at that cop I never thought he pulled me over because I was white, and I didn't think I might get shot.

Last year I got pulled over for not having a front plate on my car (newly purchased out of state) and the first thing I did was tell the officer I had a carry permit and a firearm on me. I don't think he even blinked.

Bottom line, all else being equal (it never is), it's easier to be a white male than a black male in this country. It's silly to argue otherwise.

A black kid hit me when I was in 5th grade but I told on him and he got in trouble. That's literally how far I have to dig to come up with an example of a black person wronging me.

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[GA8314]

Meh, I've never in my life felt victimized because I was white. I'm not from South Africa, but I used to know an Australian who grew up there. She had some stories. I'm not even a poor white guy from rural Alabama or the rust belt. Maybe tomorrow some black kid will sucker punch me in the back of the head, but probably not.

My first name isn't Tyrone so I'm pretty sure every resume and application I've ever submitted has at least been looked at. I don't think anyone's ever tailed me in a retail establishment, but maybe they did and I just didn't notice.

I got a bull**** traffic ticket once for making a left turn from the center lane (cop thought I was using the center lane to pass traffic) but as irritated as I was at that cop I never thought he pulled me over because I was white, and I didn't think I might get shot.

Last year I got pulled over for not having a front plate on my car (newly purchased out of state) and the first thing I did was tell the officer I had a carry permit and a firearm on me. I don't think he even blinked.

Bottom line, all else being equal (it never is), it's easier to be a white male than a black male in this country. It's silly to argue otherwise.

A black kid hit me when I was in 5th grade but I told on him and he got in trouble. That's literally how far I have to dig to come up with an example of a black person wronging me.

Well then, it sounds like YOU have been privileged. But, don't project that onto all whites in this country.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

This is BS pgg. You don't know what it's like to be a victim of racism?? Just watch a "punch out" video where young blacks target whites with a giant sucker punch to the face. Often knocking them out cold. Whites do not own racism.

Whites in South Africa are high on the genocide ladder. This narrative that only whites are racists is absurd (not saying you, PGG, are making that claim).

I didn't take his post at all to mean that whites own racism. Just like I don't take your post to mean that the level of prejudice towards blacks and whites is anywhere NEAR comparable both historically and currently. Because that would suggest a pathetic understanding of the world.

 

[pgg]

Well then, it sounds like YOU have been privileged. But, don't project that onto all whites in this country.

I think you're reading too much into what I'm writing. Of course whites can be victims. I totally get it that poor whites have struggles I didn't and don't.

But be honest: who's got the easier climb out of poverty, the urban black kid or the rural white kid? Both have an uphill climb, both suffer from cultural liabilities that generations of their respective communities have inflicted upon themselves.

There isn't a twinge of white guilt in my body, but I can clearly see their odds of escaping aren't the same, and just as importantly, they won't get the same reception in the job market after they do escape. What we can and should do about it is another question entirely, but the difference is there.

 

[GA8314]

I think you're reading too much into what I'm writing. Of course whites can be victims. I totally get it that poor whites have struggles I didn't and don't.

But be honest: who's got the easier climb out of poverty, the urban black kid or the rural white kid? Both have an uphill climb, both suffer from cultural liabilities that generations of their respective communities have inflicted upon themselves.

There isn't a twinge of white guilt in my body, but I can clearly see their odds of escaping aren't the same, and just as importantly, they won't get the same reception in the job market after they do escape. What we can and should do about it is another question entirely, but the difference is there.

What whites have gotten sick and tired of (I can speak for many Trump voters who share similar views) is the cultural marxism which would label them "privileged", all the while we hear repeated reports of CEO's "looking around the board room and being astonished at all of the white faces", thus, obviously needing correction...... My medical school is basically doing anything and everything to attract/admit black males and I have this on good authority as I'm friends with a member of the BOG. Meantime, the white privilege mantra persists.

I submit that whites of all strata of society are sick of this, perhaps less so in the upper strata, but that is changing. Welcome to identity politics and hence the growth of the Alt-Right. Don't shoot the messenger but cause---->effect.

 

[GravelRider]

What whites have gotten sick and tired of (I can speak for many Trump voters who share similar views) is the cultural marxism which would label them "privileged", all the while we hear repeated reports of CEO's "looking around the board room and being astonished at all of the white faces", thus, obviously needing correction...... My medical school is basically doing anything and everything to attract/admit black males and I have this on good authority as I'm friends with a member of the BOG. Meantime, the white privilege mantra persists.

I submit that whites of all strata of society are sick of this, perhaps less so in the upper strata, but that is changing. Welcome to identity politics and hence the growth of the Alt-Right. Don't shoot the messenger but cause---->effect.

The difference is if you get a black man in the public eye saying the kinds of things that Trump says about his "forgotten men and women" then he would not only be labeled a racist, but also an extremist and possibly a terrorist. When a white man says those things he gets elected president. That is a huge difference.

 

[twoliter]

The difference is if you get a black man in the public eye saying the kinds of things that Trump says about his "forgotten men and women" then he would not only be labeled a racist, but also an extremist and possibly a terrorist. When a white man says those things he gets elected president. That is a huge difference.

I think Trump probably has been called all those names.

 

[pgg]

I understand the resentment and how Trump tapped into it. I'm just saying, on the whole, the resentful white males still have it better than the black males given comparable economic starting points.

The media left choosing to rub that fact in the electorate's nose to motivate their non-white D-voting base may well have been unwise and may have helped Trump win, but it doesn't make it not a fact. Rhetoric from either side doesn't change reality.

I submit that whites of all strata of society are sick of this, perhaps less so in the upper strata, but that is changing. Welcome to identity politics and hence the growth of the Alt-Right. Don't shoot the messenger but cause---->effect.

There's so much of the last election I still don't understand, and can still scarcely believe, but one thing that's pretty clear is that Trump won because he played the poor white identity politics card well and Clinton lost because she thought she didn't need to campaign to those voters at all. She even made oblivious stupid unforced errors regarding them ("basket of deplorables" chief among them).

There are some signs that some parts of the Democratic Party understand how they lost these alienated white voters and they might change. Ah, who am I kidding ... they'll wake up to that about four minutes after they wake up and pull gun control from their platform.

But again, Ds talking up white guilt and Rs tapping into the resentment that breeds doesn't actually change reality. The objective truth is that if you're a white male it IS easier to get ahead in this country than if you're not.

 

[doctalaughs]

I think you're reading too much into what I'm writing. Of course whites can be victims. I totally get it that poor whites have struggles I didn't and don't.

But be honest: who's got the easier climb out of poverty, the urban black kid or the rural white kid? Both have an uphill climb, both suffer from cultural liabilities that generations of their respective communities have inflicted upon themselves.

There isn't a twinge of white guilt in my body, but I can clearly see their odds of escaping aren't the same, and just as importantly, they won't get the same reception in the job market after they do escape. What we can and should do about it is another question entirely, but the difference is there.

Eh, I don't really buy this. Both have a steep climb. However- the black kid will be accepted to top colleges with MUCH lower scores/ stats though. The poor, white trailer-park kid will be lumped in with the hampton prep-school wasp trust-fund crowd. Talk about discrimination. God forbid you are poor asian.

Come time for advanced degree (like MD) the schools are begging for (certain) minorities. I had 3 black kids in my med school class of 130. Unfortunately they lowered the bar too much bending over to find them - 2 had to drop out because they were not able to keep up, pass exams or even stay 1 standard deviation below the bottom 10%....

Large corporations are begging for (again certain) minorities in the name of PC and diversity but cannot find qualified ones.

The problem is not that society is biased or stacked against certain minorities. US society has created an environment that in fact makes it EASIER for them than equivalent socioeconomic whites and MUCH easier then equivalent socioeconomic asians.

The real problem is that we've done nothing to change the pervasive culture in these groups that devalues education, normalizes broken households and promotes crime, victimhood and blaming all failures on racism instead of personal responsibility.


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[pgg]

You're arguing that affirmative action is wrong.

I'm arguing that poor blacks have a tougher road than poor whites.

These are not incompatible arguments.


Do you think that most poor whites would trade being white for being black in return for the wonderful benefits of affirmative action? I don't.

 

[GravelRider]

I think Trump probably has been called all those names.

He's still President. Imagine a black man saying the exact same things Trump says.

 

[doctalaughs]

You're arguing that affirmative action is wrong.

I'm arguing that poor blacks have a tougher road than poor whites.

These are not incompatible arguments.


Do you think that most poor whites would trade being white for being black in return for the wonderful benefits of affirmative action? I don't.

Sure, affirmative action is wrong.

You can argue that poor blacks have a harder road than poor whites (if affirmative action and quotas were eliminated) - however I would argue that's 2% due to racism and societal bias and 98% because of ingrained cultural problems - single mother families, hero-worshiping sports figures, zero care about education etc etc etc. The emphasis on minorities being victims is making things 1000 x harder to solve, because we aren't even looking at the right problems.





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[Pooh & Annie]

The real problem is that we've done nothing to change the pervasive culture in these groups that devalues education, normalizes broken households and promotes crime, victimhood and blaming all failures on racism instead of personal responsibility.

Actually, what we've done to try to "change the pervasive culture" is to make it easier for these kids to get advanced educations, thus showing their communities that professionalism and smarts are another way out. This is exactly what you're arguing against, while saying in the next breath that we've "done nothing". And why do you say WE have done nothing, when you clearly think THEY are the problem because THEIR culture promotes "victimhood", "blame", and lack of "personal responsibility".

It's clear to every rational person that what is needed is a combination of assistance and self-reliance to change the broken communities out there. Only the fools, and there are many of them, think that taking away assistance to communities with $hitty schools, no jobs, gangs, drugs, and broken homes will somehow force people to "get off the couch" and go get an MBA, MD, or PhD. Especially when success stories from their neighborhoods are so rare that they frequently make the evening news.

And people need to get off the "they blame racism for every problem" bull$hit. No they don't. No one in their right mind thinks the country would hand them millions of dollars and a corporate office if only racism didn't exist. But they DO know racism played a big part in the culture they feel stuck in, and that it makes it harder for them to move up. We ALL know that.

People need to work hard for real money and success. Except maybe the people born into money who make money purely BECAUSE they have money. Everyone knows that. But giving a hand to depressed communities is what civilized people do until those communities can get on their own feet. That isn't going to go away, no matter how much the upper/middle classes feel "burdened" in helping the poor. Anyone who thinks our society as a whole favors the poor, especially the minority poor, is absolutely delusional.

 

[Blessthefall]

.

 

[chocomorsel]

Pooh and Annie, are you single? Or got a single brother who is enlightened like you?
I love how open minded you are. And how you see the big picture.

 

[doctalaughs]

Actually, what we've done to try to "change the pervasive culture" is to make it easier for these kids to get advanced educations, thus showing their communities that professionalism and smarts are another way out. This is exactly what you're arguing against, while saying in the next breath that we've "done nothing". And why do you say WE have done nothing, when you clearly think THEY are the problem because THEIR culture promotes "victimhood", "blame", and lack of "personal responsibility".

It's clear to every rational person that what is needed is a combination of assistance and self-reliance to change the broken communities out there. Only the fools, and there are many of them, think that taking away assistance to communities with $hitty schools, no jobs, gangs, drugs, and broken homes will somehow force people to "get off the couch" and go get an MBA, MD, or PhD. Especially when success stories from their neighborhoods are so rare that they frequently make the evening news.

And people need to get off the "they blame racism for every problem" bull$hit. No they don't. No one in their right mind thinks the country would hand them millions of dollars and a corporate office if only racism didn't exist. But they DO know racism played a big part in the culture they feel stuck in, and that it makes it harder for them to move up. We ALL know that.

People need to work hard for real money and success. Except maybe the people born into money who make money purely BECAUSE they have money. Everyone knows that. But giving a hand to depressed communities is what civilized people do until those communities can get on their own feet. That isn't going to go away, no matter how much the upper/middle classes feel "burdened" in helping the poor. Anyone who thinks our society as a whole favors the poor, especially the minority poor, is absolutely delusional.

"Making it easier for these kids to get advanced educations" can be done in many ways. Affirmative action is the worst possible counterproductive way to do so because:

1. simply lowering the bar for 1 skin color means you get unqualified people at that school/ job / degree.

2. You breed resentment in those who grew up in similar economic/ resource situations but had a different skin color.

We should completely eliminate affirmative action and all dollars should be directed towards early childhood education/ resources. They should be equally directed towards poor neighborhoods blind to color.

You keep saying "everyone knows X Y Z" which is not true. Clearly close or more than 50% of the country disagrees with you so maybe it's time to consider there are other valid viewpoints.



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[DrCommonSense]

If he's confirmed he'll be tasked with national health, and based upon his background and the political climate the opioid crisis will be a predominant part of his actions. I just don't see him using the platform to speak to Physician led care or in particular Anesthesiologist vs CRNA practice. That's not really within the scope of his position.

Of course I'd like for it to bring notice to Anesthesiologists as physicians among the layman but I doubt it will.

So essentially there will be zero benefit for anesthesiologists in this.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Has he said anything about anesthesia?

This guy's been in a politically appointed position doing public health for years now, not practicing anesthesia.

Better him than a CRNA for sure but I'm not really sure what you all expect him to do for us as SG. It's a public health job.

How do you know he doesn't practice anesthesia?

 

[DrCommonSense]

I'm going to bring up the elephant in the room. I think a reason he has not resonated more may be in part due to his race. Most of the posters here voted for trump and in some way were tired of seeing Obama in office. Now we have a black anesthesiologist nominated to fill a role in a hostile climate. Btw Mr Adams is no stranger to this. I think he will make an impact.

lol is this a serious post?

So you think people on this board hate blacks so much due to being "white" that they wouldn't support a black anesthesiologist that pushes for physician led anesthesia?

Hating blacks so much that white anesthesiologists would take a big pay cut is a whole new level of racism. Even the KKK wouldn't do that.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Meh, I've never in my life felt victimized because I was white. I'm not from South Africa, but I used to know an Australian who grew up there. She had some stories. I'm not even a poor white guy from rural Alabama or the rust belt. Maybe tomorrow some black kid will sucker punch me in the back of the head, but probably not.

My first name isn't Tyrone so I'm pretty sure every resume and application I've ever submitted has at least been looked at. I don't think anyone's ever tailed me in a retail establishment, but maybe they did and I just didn't notice.

I got a bull**** traffic ticket once for making a left turn from the center lane (cop thought I was using the center lane to pass traffic) but as irritated as I was at that cop I never thought he pulled me over because I was white, and I didn't think I might get shot.

Last year I got pulled over for not having a front plate on my car (newly purchased out of state) and the first thing I did was tell the officer I had a carry permit and a firearm on me. I don't think he even blinked.

Bottom line, all else being equal (it never is), it's easier to be a white male than a black male in this country. It's silly to argue otherwise.

A black kid hit me when I was in 5th grade but I told on him and he got in trouble. That's literally how far I have to dig to come up with an example of a black person wronging me.

Yeah but you're a privileged white dude that comes from a likely well connected family. Affirmative Action doesn't affect guys like you.

Its the poor to middle class whites with zero connections that are affected by that. If your position was given up in med school, I'd have a feeling you'd have a different opinion. When you give up someone else's position, its easy to do.

 

[nimbus]

So essentially there will be zero benefit for anesthesiologists in this.

Yep. CRNAs are not a public health crisis. I doubt the issue will ever come up at the surgeon general's office. Nor should it.

 

[twoliter]

Yep. CRNAs are not a public health crisis. I doubt the issue will ever come up at the surgeon general's office. Nor should it.

Independent CRNAs are.

 

[nimbus]

Independent CRNAs are.

That would be really hard to show.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Actually, what we've done to try to "change the pervasive culture" is to make it easier for these kids to get advanced educations, thus showing their communities that professionalism and smarts are another way out. This is exactly what you're arguing against, while saying in the next breath that we've "done nothing". And why do you say WE have done nothing, when you clearly think THEY are the problem because THEIR culture promotes "victimhood", "blame", and lack of "personal responsibility".

It's clear to every rational person that what is needed is a combination of assistance and self-reliance to change the broken communities out there. Only the fools, and there are many of them, think that taking away assistance to communities with $hitty schools, no jobs, gangs, drugs, and broken homes will somehow force people to "get off the couch" and go get an MBA, MD, or PhD. Especially when success stories from their neighborhoods are so rare that they frequently make the evening news.

And people need to get off the "they blame racism for every problem" bull$hit. No they don't. No one in their right mind thinks the country would hand them millions of dollars and a corporate office if only racism didn't exist. But they DO know racism played a big part in the culture they feel stuck in, and that it makes it harder for them to move up. We ALL know that.

People need to work hard for real money and success. Except maybe the people born into money who make money purely BECAUSE they have money. Everyone knows that. But giving a hand to depressed communities is what civilized people do until those communities can get on their own feet. That isn't going to go away, no matter how much the upper/middle classes feel "burdened" in helping the poor. Anyone who thinks our society as a whole favors the poor, especially the minority poor, is absolutely delusional.

I agree and suggest you giving up your anesthesia position first in light of these facts to a minority female due to your privileged status.

When are you going to do this?

Oh wait, I forgot, its the "redneck white trash" that should give up their med school position while the rich white liberal female should continue to virtue signal about how wonderful she is. Limo liberals are always very generous with other people's positions but magically never seem to give up theirs while playing the hero.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

I agree and suggest you giving up your anesthesia position first in light of these facts to a minority female due to your privileged status.

When are you going to do this?

Oh wait, I forgot, its the "redneck white trash" that should give up their med school position while the rich white liberal female should continue to virtue signal about how wonderful she is. Limo liberals are always very generous with other people's positions but magically never seem to give up theirs while playing the hero.

You and your clueless brethren whine about prejudice policies making it hard for YOUR people to move up. In the next breath you attack a minority community for whining about prejudice making it hard for THEIR people to move up. Makes your argument a little weak.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

Pooh and Annie, are you single? Or got a single brother who is enlightened like you?
I love how open minded you are. And how you see the big picture.

That's very nice of you! I try to be open minded. I'm pretty skeptical too though. I think ultimately people just have to ignore the noise and work hard to accomplish whatever, but when people deny the effects of history on the present I get irritated.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

"Making it easier for these kids to get advanced educations" can be done in many ways. Affirmative action is the worst possible counterproductive way to do so because:

1. simply lowering the bar for 1 skin color means you get unqualified people at that school/ job / degree.

2. You breed resentment in those who grew up in similar economic/ resource situations but had a different skin color.

We should completely eliminate affirmative action and all dollars should be directed towards early childhood education/ resources. They should be equally directed towards poor neighborhoods blind to color.

You keep saying "everyone knows X Y Z" which is not true. Clearly close or more than 50% of the country disagrees with you so maybe it's time to consider there are other valid viewpoints.



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I'm open to other options. Just throwing money at it is unlikely to fix it though.

Everyone does know it. You mean people don't think the fix requires a combination of assistance and self-reliance? That couldn't possibly be more obvious.

 

[nimbus]

You and your clueless brethren whine about prejudice policies making it hard for YOUR people to move up. In the next breath you attack a minority community for whining about prejudice making it hard for THEIR people to move up. Makes your argument a little weak.

Yep whining is whining.

 

[nimbus]

I agree and suggest you giving up your anesthesia position first in light of these facts to a minority female due to your privileged status.

When are you going to do this?

Oh wait, I forgot, its the "redneck white trash" that should give up their med school position while the rich white liberal female should continue to virtue signal about how wonderful she is. Limo liberals are always very generous with other people's positions but magically never seem to give up theirs while playing the hero.

In reality med school is not on the radar for "redneck white trash" just as it is off the radar for most disempowered communities. I've never even heard of an applicant from that demographic.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

I agree and suggest you giving up your anesthesia position first in light of these facts to a minority female due to your privileged status.

When are you going to do this?

Oh wait, I forgot, its the "redneck white trash" that should give up their med school position while the rich white liberal female should continue to virtue signal about how wonderful she is. Limo liberals are always very generous with other people's positions but magically never seem to give up theirs while playing the hero.

I specified that my spot be taken from "redneck white trash", to which my super liberal school was very accommodating. They even showed me the applicants pictures while we had a laugh.

Just like the paranoid alt-righters like yourself picture it.

 

[nimbus]

Yeah but you're a privileged white dude that comes from a likely well connected family. Affirmative Action doesn't affect guys like you.

Its the poor to middle class whites with zero connections that are affected by that. If your position was given up in med school, I'd have a feeling you'd have a different opinion. When you give up someone else's position, its easy to do.

If a poor or middle class white person didn't get into the professional school of choice, it's because they were unqualified or marginal candidate. They need to accept responsibility for their own failure and stop blaming black people. It's that same millennial "everybody is a winner" self-victimization b***s***.

 

[DrCommonSense]

You and your clueless brethren whine about prejudice policies making it hard for YOUR people to move up. In the next breath you attack a minority community for whining about prejudice making it hard for THEIR people to move up. Makes your argument a little weak.

No I don't mind the morally consistent position of affirmative action and the rich liberal advocating it giving up their spot in favor of a minority. Then it looks legit even if one disagrees with the perspective.

However, I have a problem when that liberal gives up the spot of someone else while sitting well off. That comes off as total hypocrisy and double standards.

From my experience on this subject, the white "liberal" that advocates affirmative action is positive its not their spot that will be lost due to their well connected/privileged status.

 

[DrCommonSense]

In reality med school is not on the radar for "redneck white trash" just as it is off the radar for most disempowered communities. I've never even heard of an applicant from that demographic.

Actually there are no scholarships or support networks for poor, working class and or even middle/upper middle class unconnected White and Asian males. They will require far higher MCAT scores to obtain a med school position even if they are come from dirt poor positions.

That is why you dont hear from them mostly in medical school. Often the "liberal" white person is from a well connected physician family or rich family that knows it will NOT be their spot given up.

Ergo, they can be very generous at that point considering it is literally no skin off their back. Its actually two birds with one stone for them whereby they can get rid of the White/Asian applicant that could be competition for them while virtue signaling that result pretending they are a hero.

 

[DrCommonSense]

If a poor or middle class white person didn't get into the professional school of choice, it's because they were unqualified or marginal candidate. They need to accept responsibility for their own failure and stop blaming black people. It's that same millennial "everybody is a winner" self-victimization b***s***.

Actually those Asians/Whites are usually MORE qualified on paper than the minority candidate that was let in. So by your logic, the minority should accept responsibility for not achieving high enough scores MORESO than the white/asian considering they need AA to give them benefit.

Yet you seem to advocate giving even more marginal/unqualified minority students positions in medical school while not advocating them taking "responsibility" for their low scores.

Interesting how that works huh?

 

[doctalaughs]

Actually those Asians/Whites are usually MORE qualified on paper than the minority candidate that was let in. So by your logic, the minority should accept responsibility for not achieving high enough scores MORESO than the white/asian considering they need AA to give them benefit.

Yet you seem to advocate giving even more marginal/unqualified minority students positions in medical school while not advocating them taking "responsibility" for their low scores.

Interesting how that works huh?

Agree 100%. They want it both ways. Real, written, enshrined rules specifically created to discriminate against poor whites and other minorities is GREAT and very progressive. However any perceived whiff of possible discrimination against "certain" minorities is racist, bigoted and backwards.

I cannot understand how liberals don't see the sheer hypocrisy of it.

Sheesh - no wonder Trump won. And I say that as someone who didn't vote for him but have the insight to see why so many hate this sort of hypocrisy rampant in the democratic party.


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[nimbus]

Actually there are no scholarships or support networks for poor, working class and or even middle/upper middle class unconnected White and Asian males. They will require far higher MCAT scores to obtain a med school position even if they are come from dirt poor positions.

That is why you dont hear from them mostly in medical school. Often the "liberal" white person is from a well connected physician family or rich family that knows it will NOT be their spot given up.

Ergo, they can be very generous at that point considering it is literally no skin off their back. Its actually two birds with one stone for them whereby they can get rid of the White/Asian applicant that could be competition for them while virtue signaling that result pretending they are a hero.

You're talking to the wrong guy. I'm a first generation Asian male immigrant. My family was lower middle class, clueless, and unconnected. I stand by what I said. We need to stop blaming black people or other minorities for our own failures. They have NOTHING to do with it. A minority admission is not why you don't get into the college of your choice or medical school or whatever. If you fail at something, look at yourself, work on yourself. Your application was probably marginal. To do otherwise is just lame. Isn't self-responsibility a conservative value?

 

[deleted171991]

Actually, what we've done to try to "change the pervasive culture" is to make it easier for these kids to get advanced educations, thus showing their communities that professionalism and smarts are another way out. This is exactly what you're arguing against, while saying in the next breath that we've "done nothing". And why do you say WE have done nothing, when you clearly think THEY are the problem because THEIR culture promotes "victimhood", "blame", and lack of "personal responsibility".

It's clear to every rational person that what is needed is a combination of assistance and self-reliance to change the broken communities out there. Only the fools, and there are many of them, think that taking away assistance to communities with $hitty schools, no jobs, gangs, drugs, and broken homes will somehow force people to "get off the couch" and go get an MBA, MD, or PhD. Especially when success stories from their neighborhoods are so rare that they frequently make the evening news.

And people need to get off the "they blame racism for every problem" bull$hit. No they don't. No one in their right mind thinks the country would hand them millions of dollars and a corporate office if only racism didn't exist. But they DO know racism played a big part in the culture they feel stuck in, and that it makes it harder for them to move up. We ALL know that.

People need to work hard for real money and success. Except maybe the people born into money who make money purely BECAUSE they have money. Everyone knows that. But giving a hand to depressed communities is what civilized people do until those communities can get on their own feet. That isn't going to go away, no matter how much the upper/middle classes feel "burdened" in helping the poor. Anyone who thinks our society as a whole favors the poor, especially the minority poor, is absolutely delusional.

Except that we are doing it the wrong way. The very wrong way. It's bordering racism in the 30s, when they invented "interviewing" to keep Jewish students out of academia (admissions used to be 100% entrance exam-based), except now we are doing it to Asians and Whites. Positive discrimination for a group is negative discrimination for all others.

The right way to do it is to give all poor kids financial support, even full rider, federally-sponsored, if they get into a college based on their own merit. No more extra points for being a minority, one-eyed, three-eyed, whatever. Everything based on merit with need-based financial help. No more interviews, essays and other subjective bull**** that invites positive or negative discrimination. Admission committees completely blinded to candidates, by law, otherwise ineligible for federal funds.

Nobody should get extra points for something that is not their merit/fault. That should also apply to "diversity in the workplace". Affirmative action and overwhelming political correctness are discriminatory, period, and that's why Trump got elected. Nobody should get a pass based on being a minority (and that includes all the minority workers employers are afraid to fire, but would have fired long time ago had they been heterosexual white men).

Before I came to the US, it had never occurred to me to wonder if a minority graduate's diploma is worth less than a majority one's. Affirmative action does a disservice to outstanding people who belong to positively discriminated groups. That's why some of them are not taken seriously just based on their degree. The saddest thing is when a minority patient asks for a white male doctor, because s/he doesn't trust all the affirmative action crap.

 

[doctalaughs]

You're talking to the wrong guy. I'm a first generation Asian male immigrant. My family was lower middle class, clueless, and unconnected. I stand by what I said. We need to stop blaming black people or other minorities for our own failures. They have NOTHING to do with it. A minority admission is not why you don't get into the college of your choice or medical school or whatever. If you fail at something, look at yourself, work on yourself. Your application was probably marginal. To do otherwise is just lame. Isn't self-responsibility a conservative value?

Your opinion is your own. I'm in the same boat (1st gen asian) and disagree with you so don't act like you speak for all of us. I think the lawsuits against Harvard and other schools have a lot of merit.

There was zero chance anyone would have "taken my spot" in college/med school/residency etc decades ago, but racism is racism. You can't create quotas or say asians need a standard deviation above blacks on test scores for admittance and NOT call that racism.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[deleted171991]

You're talking to the wrong guy. I'm a first generation Asian male immigrant. My family was lower middle class, clueless, and unconnected. I stand by what I said. We need to stop blaming black people or other minorities for our own failures. They have NOTHING to do with it. A minority admission is not why you don't get into the college of your choice or medical school or whatever. If you fail at something, look at yourself, work on yourself. Your application was probably marginal. To do otherwise is just lame. Isn't self-responsibility a conservative value?

The way I understand affirmative action is that people get extra points just for belonging to an "underrepresented" group, and lose points for belonging to an overrepresented one.

Also, AFAIK, admission to elite colleges is EXTREMELY competitive. I remember admission officers being quoted about how tough it is to choose, as they have many more great candidates than the number of spots. So every little thing counts.

Ergo, you can't be serious when saying that an Asian who doesn't make it into an elite college (because of affirmative action) had a marginal application. Most of those kids are way above average. It's like failing a USMLE Step with 240 just because one is Asian, and passing it with 190 just because one is African American.

I hate white (or anything) supremacist crap, but positive discrimination belongs to the same latrine of history.

This is an example of how it should be (emphasis mine):

In other countries, such as the UK,[6][7][8] affirmative action is rendered illegal because it does not treat all races equally. This approach to equal treatment is described as being "color blind." In such countries, the focus tends to be on ensuring equal opportunity and, for example, targeted advertising campaigns to encourage ethnic minority candidates to join the police force. This is sometimes described as "positive action."

 

[nimbus]

Your opinion is your own. I'm in the same boat (1st gen asian) and disagree with you so don't act like you speak for all of us. I think the lawsuits against Harvard and other schools have a lot of merit.

There was zero chance anyone would have "taken my spot" in college/med school/residency etc decades ago, but racism is racism. You can't create quotas or say asians need a standard deviation above blacks on test scores for admittance and NOT call that racism.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I agree those lawsuits have merit. But they are about active discrimination against Asian applicants leading to lower admission rates and higher test scores for admitted Asian applicants compared to their privileged white counterparts. The powers that be at Princeton and Harvard didn't want their demographics to look like Cal or Caltech.

 

[nimbus]

The way I understand affirmative action is that people get extra points just for belonging to an "underrepresented" group, and lose points for belonging to an overrepresented one.

Also, AFAIK, admission to elite colleges is EXTREMELY competitive. I remember admission officers being quoted about how tough it is to choose, as they have many more great candidates than the number of spots. So every little thing counts.

Ergo, you can't be serious when saying that an Asian who doesn't make it into an elite college (because of affirmative action) had a marginal application. Most of those kids are way above average. It's like failing a USMLE Step with 240 just because one is Asian, and passing it with 190 just because one is African American.

I hate white (or anything) supremacist crap, but positive discrimination belongs to the same latrine of history.

This is an example of how it should be (emphasis mine):

By marginal I mean marginal for that institution. If you're outstanding you'll be admitted regardless of race. Race makes a difference when you're on the cusp, the margin.

 

[deleted171991]

By marginal I mean marginal for that institution. If you're outstanding you'll be admitted regardless of race. Race makes a difference when you're on the cusp, the margin.

You don't get it. The difference between the best and the worst in a class is in the order of magnitude of percentage points (when purely about merit, not race or donations or alumni or connections etc.). We are talking about the likes of 39,000 applicants for 2,000 spots (for Harvard). And those 39,000 are already self-selected top students, so the 2,000 are truly the cream of the crop. So every (dis)advantage matters.

It's nice to sit on a high horse and predicate about how the best would always make it. That's probably false. We are talking about differences among kids who are already in the top 5% of the applicants. And the percentage of favored minorities is 25% (while interestingly Asians are at the same order of magnitude - 22%).

In the end, if those extra points wouldn't matter, they wouldn't give them, and they wouldn't care if they were sued for discrimination.

 

[nimbus]

You don't get it. The difference between the best and the worst in a class is in the order of magnitude of percentage points (when purely about merit, not race or donations or alumni or connections etc.). We are talking about the likes of 39,000 applicants for 2,000 spots (for Harvard). And those 39,000 are already self-selected top students, so the 2,000 are truly the cream of the crop. So every (dis)advantage matters.

It's nice to sit on a high horse and predicate about how the best would always make it. That's probably false. We are talking about differences among kids who are already in the top 5% of the applicants. And the percentage of favored minorities is 25% (while interestingly Asians are at the same order of magnitude - 22%), so one cannot just say that it only affects the marginal candidates.

In the end, if those extra points wouldn't matter, they wouldn't give them, and they wouldn't care if they were sued for discrimination.

Those brilliant Harvard rejects (I happen to be one of them) will do just fine.

 

[deleted171991]

Those brilliant Harvard rejects (I happen to be one of them)will do just fine.

I am sure. That's my point exactly, that most of them are way above average people. It still doesn't make it fair or right. Those kids have dreams, too, and deserve to be treated equally.

Affirmative action exists mainly to keep favoritism legal for college admissions. Abolishing affirmative action for being discriminatory would quickly lead to abolishing any form of positive discrimination, such as alumni- or donation- or connection-based admissions (e.g. Jared Kushner, George W Bush, Donald J Trump etc.). And that doesn't sit well with certain people (always follow the money). It's a well-known fact that elite schools tend to select at least some of their freshmen not based on past performance, but likelihood of future performance and donations (which has to do a lot with families, wealth and connections).

So the poor Asian or white kid is mostly f*cked. Hence Trump.

 

[GravelRider]

Except that we are doing it the wrong way. The very wrong way. It's bordering racism in the 30s, when they invented "interviewing" to keep Jewish students out of academia (admissions used to be 100% entrance exam-based), except now we are doing it to Asians and Whites. Positive discrimination for a group is negative discrimination for all others.

The right way to do it is to give all poor kids financial support, even full rider, federally-sponsored, if they get into a college based on their own merit. No more extra points for being a minority, one-eyed, three-eyed, whatever. Everything based on merit with need-based financial help. No more interviews, essays and other subjective bull**** that invites positive or negative discrimination. Admission committees completely blinded to candidates, by law, otherwise ineligible for federal funds.

Nobody should get extra points for something that is not their merit/fault. That should also apply to "diversity in the workplace". Affirmative action and overwhelming political correctness are discriminatory, period, and that's why Trump got elected. Nobody should get a pass based on being a minority (and that includes all the minority workers employers are afraid to fire, but would have fired long time ago had they been heterosexual white men).

Before I came to the US, it had never occurred to me to wonder if a minority graduate's diploma is worth less than a majority one's. Affirmative action does a disservice to outstanding people who belong to positively discriminated groups. That's why some of them are not taken seriously just based on their degree. The saddest thing is when a minority patient asks for a white male doctor, because s/he doesn't trust all the affirmative action crap.

Count me in the group that is unimpressed by purely "objective" measurements like multiple guess tests. I had a co-resident that was always >90th percentile on ITE, but a complete bonehead in the OR. When you have privileged people who can pay for test "coaches" to teach a student how to take a particular test, that score then means absolutely nothing to me. Give me the kid who scores slightly lower on a test while growing up in a hostile environment over the privileged kid who was coached to take the exam any day. Race-based admission criteria is not the answer, but neither is pure "objective" criteria.

 

[deleted171991]

Count me in the group that is unimpressed by purely "objective" measurements like multiple guess tests. I had a co-resident that was always >90th percentile on ITE, but a complete bonehead in the OR. When you have privileged people who can pay for test "coaches" to teach a student how to take a particular test, that score then means absolutely nothing to me. Give me the kid who scores slightly lower on a test while growing up in a hostile environment over the privileged kid who was coached to take the exam any day. Race-based admission criteria is not the answer, but neither is pure "objective" criteria.

Except nobody can predict who will be bonehead in the OR from an interview.

A hostile environment in childhood does not necessarily correlate with good clinical skills. Most world class doctors don't come from poverty, no offense.

 

[GravelRider]

Except nobody can predict who will be bonehead in the OR from an interview.

A hostile environment in childhood does not necessarily correlate with good clinical skills. Most world class doctors don't come from poverty, no offense.

In more general terms, those tests are predictive of nothing more than how well you were tutored to take a particular test. I am, for the most part, unimpressed by things like perfect SAT scores and high step 1 scores.

Something doesn't add up, though. You have people whining about things like Common Core testing standards and in the same breath whining about how admissions should be purely test score based.

 

[deleted171991]

In more general terms, those tests are predictive of nothing more than how well you were tutored to take a particular test. I am, for the most part, unimpressed by things like perfect SAT scores and high step 1 scores.

Yes and no.

The problem is not with using tests to predict performance. The problem is with using the wrong tests. I would argue that Step 1 has very little predictive value about a resident's performance. Step 2 is much better at that, and Step 3 could be even better (if redesigned). Neither of them will predict how a person will behave in a stressful situation (which is so essential for acute/emergency care specialties), or what his/her manual skills are, or how friendly the person is, or his/her leadership traits, teamworker qualities, or ethics etc. All of these are important factors for success in anesthesiology. But I would argue that nothing can predict these, not even an interview or a recommendation letter. All a letter proves is who you know (and brown-nosed), and the interview is just a feeding ground for the (otherwise) dinguses who know how to work the system (and who get "tutored" for them). Both are extremely subjective. I am sure one can give similar examples about college or med school admission criteria.

So while great exam scores will not predict clinical excellence (to continue using the anesthesiology example), I still have to meet an excellent clinician who doesn't have a lot of knowledge to draw from. I am not arguing for a purely exam-based system. I am arguing for an anonymized/blinded system, a much more objective one. I know, for a fact, that one of the admission criteria in my program was (and still may be) the applicant's good looks, in an affirmative action kind of way.

This is where we should copy the more socialist countries. They are much better at providing equal opportunities to all their citizens, without discrimination and in an objective fashion, than we are. Nota bene: I am not pleading for socialism in America, just for equal opportunities in our educational system. Also, we should admit 25-50% more than we wish to graduate, and drop the bottom 10+% every year, based on much more objective and predictive measures than SAT, MCAT, USMLE, interviews, letters etc.

 

[nimbus]

Also, we should admit 25-50% more than we wish to graduate, and drop the bottom 10+% every year, based on much more objective and predictive measures than SAT, MCAT, USMLE, interviews, letters etc.

When I trained there were quite a few general surgery programs like that. Great system. Produced some excellent anesthesiologists.

 

[GravelRider]

Yes and no.

The problem is not with using tests to predict performance. The problem is with using the wrong tests. I would argue that Step 1 has very little predictive value about a resident's performance. Step 2 is much better at that, and Step 3 could be even better at that (if redesigned). Neither of them will predict how a person will behave in a stressful situation (which is so essential for acute/emergency care specialties), or what his/her manual skills are, or how friendly the person is, or his/her leadership traits, teamworker qualities, or ethics etc. All of these are important factors for success in anesthesiology. But I would argue that nothing can predict these, not even an interview or a recommendation letter. All a letter proves is who you know (and brown-nosed), and the interview is just a feeding ground for the (otherwise) dinguses who know how to work the system (and who get "tutored" for them). Both are extremely subjective. I am sure one can give similar examples about college or med school admission criteria.

So while great exam scores will not predict clinical excellence (to continue using the anesthesiology example), I still have to meet an excellent clinician who doesn't have a lot of knowledge to draw from. I am not arguing for a purely exam-based system. I am arguing for an anonymized/blinded system, a much more objective one. I know, for a fact, that one of the admission criteria in my program was (and still may be) the applicant's good looks, in an affirmative action kind of way.

This is where we should copy the more socialist countries. They are much better at providing equal opportunities to all their citizens, without discrimination and in an objective fashion, than we are. Nota bene: I am not pleading for socialism in America, just for equal opportunities in our educational system. Also, we should admit 25-50% more than we wish to graduate, and drop the bottom 10+% every year, based on much more objective and predictive measures than SAT, MCAT, USMLE, interviews, letters etc.

Imagine you have two candidates:
Kid A: Scores very well on an entrance exam. He comes from a privileged background where he attends private school with small class sizes and enthusiastic teachers. His parents pay for extra tutors and has time for all the fun touchy-feely nonsense that kids do these days to make a spiffy application (violin lessons, polo, whatever).

Kid B: Also scores well on entrance exam, but maybe not quite as well as Kid A. He comes from a one-parent family because his dad is in jail and his mom is addicted to heroin. He attends an underfunded and overcrowded public school. He spends his free time working jobs because his mom is too busy getting high to pay the rent.

I would take Kid B every single time over Kid A. By going off a purely objective measurement like a test score, you miss some subjective qualities that are important in a candidate. I get that you want the best of the best in whatever field we are talking about, but some kids don't have the opportunity to show what they are truly capable of because of circumstances they have no control over. Race-based "points" on an application are stupid, but so are privilege-based "points."