Anesthesiologists better adapt says "top Harvard economist" or else

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Anesthesiologists Must Adapt, Says Value Model Guru
Alicia Ault

November 10, 2016



CHICAGO — Anesthesiologists who resist the move toward value-based healthcare risk becoming dinosaurs, according to a prominent economist who is widely viewed as the architect of the value model.

"This is the future," said Michael Porter, Bishop William Lawrence University Professor at Harvard Business School and director of the Institute for Strategy and Competitiveness in Boston. Value-based models may still be more of the exception than the norm, but they are here to stay, said Porter.

"We have to stop protecting our traditional roles and get ahead of this — do the things that we can do the best and do the things that stretch us," Porter said during his keynote speech to an audience of several thousand here at Anesthesiology 2016 from the American Society of Anesthesiologists (ASA).

Otherwise, "my fear is that you all will become commodity players," he said.

The audience listened raptly, but did not react with enthusiasm as Porter outlined a system centered around patients and conditions, with teams of highly specialized clinicians.

Porter was chosen for his ability to stimulate discussion, said Daniel Cole, MD, professor of clinical anesthesiology at the University of California, Los Angeles David Geffen School of Medicine, who is president of the ASA.

"I asked him to speak to give us his contemporary ideas and to be thought-provoking," Dr Cole told Medscape Medical News. "We live in a volatile age in healthcare," he added.

"My perception is that anesthesiologists have been struggling to preserve their roles," Porter explained. "The general orientation in this field has been to be defensive."

But he said he believes better times are ahead for those who can move forward.

"I think we're entering a period where it's going to be really exciting, much more interesting, and much more satisfying to be an anesthesiologist," Porter said.

The Value Proposition

The healthcare field has been fiercely resistant to innovation, and cost-cutting solutions have largely failed — in part because no one knows the true underlying costs, Porter pointed out. The field has also been unsuccessful because it has lacked clarity about goals, he added.


The goal and purpose "must be value for the patient," said Porter. He defines that as the actual outcomes (that matter to the patient) being delivered, and gauges how good those outcomes are, relative to the total cost of delivery.

If the outcomes are delivered and improve over time, or at lower costs, "we are succeeding," Porter explained. "If we're not improving value, we are failing."

Anesthesiologists should embrace value-based reimbursement. If they don't, they are "going to be just suffering pressure on fees" and be stuck with lower reimbursement, he said. But being a part of the value proposition could actually increase income.


To do this, though, means changing the way anesthesiologists practice, he said. Healthcare has been focused on interventions, or specific specialties, or sites of care, but this does not work for the value proposition. "You can't just think about the anesthesiologists, it also matters what everybody else does that's involved in the care of the patient," he said.

Value is about the process, the entire care cycle for a patient's condition — whether breast cancer or heart disease or another condition — not particular silos. "This is an epic change in perspective," said Porter.


Porter laid out the six steps he said are necessary to transform healthcare into a value-driven field.

First, providers must reorganize the delivery of care so that it is centered around a condition. Porter has advised several organizations on how to establish what he calls integrated practice units (IPUs). One of those — the M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston — has set up such a unit for head and neck cancer, he reported.

Patients see a dedicated team of clinicians, most in the same facility. The IPU has a pathologist who only reads head and neck tumor specimens and a radiologist who only interprets head and neck tumor images.


Not every healthcare organization can be so specialized, Porter noted, but M.D. Anderson "has the volume to afford to do this, and do it well."

Still, anesthesiologists need to see themselves on the breast cancer team or the cardiac surgery team. "You're not on the anesthesiology team anymore," he pointed out.

And clinicians need to hyperspecialize, because studies have shown that experience and volume improve quality and value. "We still have too many clinicians today who revel in the variety of things we do," he said.


Measuring value is also crucial. "Healthcare is the only place in my entire career I've seen that is a fact-free zone," said Porter. Value has been impossible to determine because costs are not transparent and outcomes have not been systematically measured.

When outcomes have been measured, they are the wrong ones. "Processes and indicators are not outcomes," said Porter. The most important quality measure is the outcome that's important to the patient — are they in pain or suffering in some way, how long do they stay healthy, and what are the consequences of the therapy. "The patients know a lot better how they're doing than we do, except for clinical indicators," he noted.

The reimbursement system also has to change — from volume to value — and health organizations have to be transformed into systems of care. Systems should not think of themselves solely as local providers because that results in too much duplication of care. And health needs a better information-technology platform, said Porter.

Stop Protecting Turf

Porter chided anesthesiologists for expending too much energy on turf battles instead of figuring out how to move ahead.


"In this field, we have a religious debate about nurse anesthetists. You've got to stop that debate," said Porter. There is plenty of work and not enough anesthesiologists, so each could be part of a team. "We're dinosaurs if we keep having that debate."

In his work with healthcare organizations, he explained, he encounters anesthesiologists who have no interest in joining an IPU. "That's not a healthy way to think about the future," he noted.

Anesthesiologists can expand their role in the surgical care cycle by taking on duties such as preparing for surgery, conducting preop assessments, minimizing cognitive effects, and helping improve cycling through the operating room, he said. Outside of the hospital, the field can find opportunities in outpatient surgery, coverage in rural areas, radiation therapy, critical care, pain management, hospice, and palliative care, said Porter.


The specialists need to "get on the bus for bundles," he said, and accept a fixed payment for a full cycle of care. Bundled pay rewards those who are efficient and penalizes those who aren't. They are also "physician-centric," he explained; doctors have the flexibility to do things in the most efficient way, and are rewarded directly for good outcomes. With other models, like capitation, the hospital is in the driver's seat and determines how much of the reward to share with physicians.

Dr Cole said he agrees with much of Porter's assessments, although he noted that what Porter laid out is more of a vision than a reality, given that an overnight transformation to what he calls patient-oriented care teams is not possible.

"Anesthesiology has a long and rich heritage of working in teams," Dr Cole said. Teams "need to be physician-led because there are life-and-death decisions made frequently and routinely."


Healthcare "is in a transformative era," Dr Cole told Medscape Medical News. He likens it to the change that occurred when video stores were replaced by online streaming.

It is not clear exactly how the transformation will occur, "but one thing is certain," he said. "it's essentially a fact that healthcare is moving to value-based reimbursement."

Dr Cole has disclosed no relevant financial relationships.

Anesthesiology 2016 from the American Society of Anesthesiologists. Presented October 22, 2016.


What are thoughts on this crap?

Sounds like they are looking to replace Anesthesiologists with CRNAs and becoming basically some kind of perioperative physician whose pay will largely be cut dramatically despite assurances of "continued income".

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Translation: we will choose random things that don't measure quality and use that to cut your pay. It doesn't really matter though because your pay will go down, either by us or by the hospital that owns you. You must work with your nursing overlords or you will be unemployed. Also, you will be stuck in a certain niche. You will do only appys all day every day until you're the world's expert in judging slow surgeons and you will like it.
 
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Stoped reading after the first paragraph!

What about ER docs? Don't they face the same players with NPs in the ER or more certainty in those urgent care centers.
 
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What are thoughts on this crap?

Sounds like they are looking to replace Anesthesiologists with CRNAs and becoming basically some kind of perioperative physician whose pay will largely be cut dramatically despite assurances of "continued income".


Not exactly.

The thing is all of medicine is moving towards paying for quality and not paying for service. Anesthesia has done well financially in the historic/current fee for service model. In other words, you provide a discrete service to a patient and get reimbursed for that at a set rate. They are trying to move away from that model.

Example (current):
- patient comes in for TKA. You bill your anesthetic based on base units plus time units and additional fee for a block.

(future)
-patient comes in for a TKA. Hospital, surgeon, anesthesiologist get provided 1 lump sum fee to split amongst themselves for delivery of care that meets whatever standard they set. If the standard isn't met, you don't get paid even though you did the same amount of work as always. Or maybe you get paid a variable amount depending on how close to perfect the patient was cared for (think SCIP guidelines but way worse).


It's an unknown and dicey proposition. We could do well in this future model or we could do a lot worse. It's just not going to be as clear cut as it used to be. It has nothing to do with replacing physicians with CRNAs. That is a separate issue unrelated to the future of value based payments.
 
Stoped reading after the first paragraph!

What about ER docs? Don't they face the same players with NPs in the ER or more certainty in those urgent care centers.

Why yes, yes they do.

I suspect all non surgical fields will be feeling the wonderful NP pressure in the future.

Our esteemed economist from Harvard believes physicians are overpaid without value being added. Therefore, their salaries need to be cut in the interests of "efficiency and value" with expanding roles for our nursing colleagues.

Also, it is imperative that the profits of all hospitals go to the administration and MBAs at the top due to their great ability to understand "value", which is clearly far more valuable than the physician's service that is really just a commodity.

MBAs/Admins are the "big thinkers" and need to be paid.

You understand right? No hard feelings, its business brah.
 

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Not exactly.

The thing is all of medicine is moving towards paying for quality and not paying for service. Anesthesia has done well financially in the historic/current fee for service model. In other words, you provide a discrete service to a patient and get reimbursed for that at a set rate. They are trying to move away from that model.

Example (current):
- patient comes in for TKA. You bill your anesthetic based on base units plus time units and additional fee for a block.

(future)
-patient comes in for a TKA. Hospital, surgeon, anesthesiologist get provided 1 lump sum fee to split amongst themselves for delivery of care that meets whatever standard they set. If the standard isn't met, you don't get paid even though you did the same amount of work as always. Or maybe you get paid a variable amount depending on how close to perfect the patient was cared for (think SCIP guidelines but way worse).


It's an unknown and dicey proposition. We could do well in this future model or we could do a lot worse. It's just not going to be as clear cut as it used to be. It has nothing to do with replacing physicians with CRNAs. That is a separate issue unrelated to the future of value based payments.

Maybe this 'bundled" payment won't satisfy the Ortho whereby he believes he can hire a CRNA and pay them less out of the pie to do the case, so that he can maintain his income.

Nah that would never happen right?
 
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This is an extension to the ASA's "surgical home" project which is designed to create the illusion that the ASA is doing something to compensate for it's impotence.
This is the same organization that conceded a decade ago that a nurse anesthetist can be supervised by a "physician" not necessarily an anesthesiologists, and as a result gave the nurses the momentum to acquire independent practice in many states. Now the ASA is going to save anesthesiology by transforming us into peri-operative specialists and abandoning our intra-op role to the nurses.
 
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Maybe this 'bundled" payment won't satisfy the Ortho whereby he believes he can hire a CRNA and pay them less out of the pie to do the case, so that he can maintain his income.

Nah that would never happen right?

It'll actually be the hospital that hires the surgeon and the anesthesiologist. The surgeon is not the major player in this bundled payment. The bundle will get paid to the hospital and each physician will have to argue for their share.
 
It'll actually be the hospital that hires the surgeon and the anesthesiologist. The surgeon is not the major player in this bundled payment. The bundle will get paid to the hospital and each physician will have to argue for their share.
What's stopping the hospital from hiring a CRNA then?
 
Stoped reading after the first paragraph!

What about ER docs? Don't they face the same players with NPs in the ER or more certainty in those urgent care centers.

There's a lot less uncertainty in doing healthy asa 1s and 2s alone than there is in the undifferentiated patient in the ED. You never know if this guy who came in with chest pain 3x in the past month is going to have a real stemi this time. Or some 81 year old comes in with vague belly pain, mid levels don't want to touch that.
 
There's a lot less uncertainty in doing healthy asa 1s and 2s alone than there is in the undifferentiated patient in the ED. You never know if this guy who came in with chest pain 3x in the past month is going to have a real stemi this time. Or some 81 year old comes in with vague belly pain, mid levels don't want to touch that.
Imaging is a mid-level's best friend
 
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What's stopping the hospital from hiring a CRNA then?

Hospital hires CRNA and Ortho.

Administration MBA pockets the difference.

Ortho is content, CRNA is happy, MBA is happy

MBA gives himself a huge bonus for increasing efficiency= good business

ASA thinks its for the best as well.
 
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There's a lot less uncertainty in doing healthy asa 1s and 2s alone than there is in the undifferentiated patient in the ED. You never know if this guy who came in with chest pain 3x in the past month is going to have a real stemi this time. Or some 81 year old comes in with vague belly pain, mid levels don't want to touch that.

Says who?

Just setup Chest Pain Algorithims such as Troponin X 3, EKG, CXR for higher risk cardiac patient populations. Start ASA, Statin, Beta Blocker, Heparin if necessary. Consult cardiology for cath.

Undifferentiated Abdominal Pain gets a CT and possible surgical consult.

Don't see why nurses can't do this.

ER physician can have "supervision" at 10:1 NP ratios with getting rid of the 80% of ER docs from the hospital. Since there would be an overabundance of ER physicians on the market after these changes, negotiate down their salaries as well.

Much cheaper hospital costs

MBA takes the bonus= winning!
 
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Hospital hires CRNA and Ortho.

Administration MBA pockets the difference.

Ortho is content, CRNA is happy, MBA is happy

MBA gives himself a huge bonus for increasing efficiency= good business

ASA thinks its for the best as well.
Your argument goes down the drain if u expect Medicare 33% of private insurance rates to start applying to private insurers.

Crna's aren't cheap.

They expect overtime. They expect holiday pay. They expect call differential.

Equals CEO out of a job. MBA consultant doesn't get any more consulting jobs

There are more mommy track Crna's than there are mommy track MDs

The reality of it is MDs working for AMCs generally make $325-375k. (Give or take) working 50-60 hours a week (let's just meet in the middle and say 55 hours (calls q4-6 days)

Crna's make $150-170k working 40 hours a week

U adjust hours worked. U adjust call differentials. Crna will be making 275-300k (roughly what many in crna rural practices make). I know this for a fact. And those crna rural practice are generally NOT BUSY. Talking about 25-30 hours a week physically in the hospital. Some random beeper calls for very low call back. That's what Crna's make.

And the ones who work like dogs 60 hours a week. And are busy. They make $400k with 10 weeks off

Where is your cost savings mr MBA?

As Donald Trump says. "your fired!"
 
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Your argument goes down the drain if u expect Medicare 33% of private insurance rates to start applying to private insurers.

Crna's aren't cheap.

They expect overtime. They expect holiday pay. They expect call differential.

Equals CEO out of a job. MBA consultant doesn't get any more consulting jobs

There are more mommy track Crna's than there are mommy track MDs

The reality of it is MDs working for AMCs generally make $325-375k. (Give or take) working 50-60 hours a week (let's just meet in the middle and say 55 hours (calls q4-6 days)

Crna's make $150-170k working 40 hours a week

U adjust hours worked. U adjust call differentials. Crna will be making 275-300k (roughly what many in crna rural practices make). I know this for a fact. And those crna rural practice are generally NOT BUSY. Talking about 25-30 hours a week physically in the hospital. Some random beeper calls for very low call back. That's what Crna's make.

And the ones who work like dogs 60 hours a week. And are busy. They make $400k with 10 weeks off

Where is your cost savings mr MBA?

As Donald Trump says. "your fired!"

Yep. They aren't cheaper and are a bigger PITA, not to mention very hit or miss clinically.
No thanks.
 
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Your argument goes down the drain if u expect Medicare 33% of private insurance rates to start applying to private insurers.

Crna's aren't cheap.

They expect overtime. They expect holiday pay. They expect call differential.

Equals CEO out of a job. MBA consultant doesn't get any more consulting jobs

There are more mommy track Crna's than there are mommy track MDs

The reality of it is MDs working for AMCs generally make $325-375k. (Give or take) working 50-60 hours a week (let's just meet in the middle and say 55 hours (calls q4-6 days)

Crna's make $150-170k working 40 hours a week

U adjust hours worked. U adjust call differentials. Crna will be making 275-300k (roughly what many in crna rural practices make). I know this for a fact. And those crna rural practice are generally NOT BUSY. Talking about 25-30 hours a week physically in the hospital. Some random beeper calls for very low call back. That's what Crna's make.

And the ones who work like dogs 60 hours a week. And are busy. They make $400k with 10 weeks off

Where is your cost savings mr MBA?

As Donald Trump says. "your fired!"


Except with the overabundance of CRNAs, they can easily drop CRNA salaries to 200K or so based upon a 50 hour work week with call included.

Don't be so confident they can't drop those salaries significantly without a problem. CRNA schools are PUMPING out students.
 
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Except with the overabundance of CRNAs, they can easily drop CRNA salaries to 200K or so based upon a 50 hour work week with call included.

Don't be so confident they can't drop those salaries significantly without a problem. CRNA schools are PUMPING out students.

Sure. Keep believing that.

My buddy runs his own little mini AMC empire in the South. He's facing a lot of crna and MD pushback and it's eating into his profits the last couple of years.

The thing about MBA is what they draw up in the board room gets often gets thrown out the window in the healthcare world. Delays happens. Add on happens. Emergencies happen.

Crna's and MDs are retiring or cutting back hours.

The over abundance of Crna's? You got Team Health Sheridan etc all begging and giving sign on bonus in METRO areas 2-3 million population. Not the boonies.
 
Except with the overabundance of CRNAs, they can easily drop CRNA salaries to 200K or so based upon a 50 hour work week with call included.

Don't be so confident they can't drop those salaries significantly without a problem. CRNA schools are PUMPING out students.

Crna's at my old place take call for $200k with Ob and they work essentially 3 days a week with one weekend call a month.

Again. Crna's aren't cheap.

Imagine having them work a full week plus call!

It's gonna to take $300k Plus to Make them work 50 plus hours a week with regular calls.

Where is your profit margin mr MBA?
 
It's an unknown and dicey proposition. We could do well in this future model or we could do a lot worse. It's just not going to be as clear cut as it used to be. It has nothing to do with replacing physicians with CRNAs. That is a separate issue unrelated to the future of value based payments.

Perhaps what he's trying to say is that the current healthcare payment model IS the reason physicians are being replaced (ie, train an unspecialized group of people to perform a high paying service in multiple for less than the expected cost of a specialist). Could happen to any service provider in medicine as long as productivity exceeds overhead.

In his future vision of healthcare, anesthesiologists as service providers are completely replaced by CRNAs as an inevitability (regardless of payment structure). However, if the current payment structure is sustained, CRNAs will acquire their independence, and physicians will become "commodity players". That's probably why he thinks the debate is pointless. He's trying to get people to hop on board his value bus because the current system is not salvageable for anesthesiologists.

I'm guessing his argument is that it's harder to pay CRNAs as much in a value based system because they are less efficient/flexible in their roles than physicians. The hyperspecialization thing contradicts this slightly, and is pretty weird.

Why is the market definitely moving toward bundled? I don't see insurance companies switching to value based payments unless physicians want it. Otherwise, it seems very risky. There's no reason to disrupt the status quo unless insurance companies can corner both purchasers and suppliers. Am I missing something?
 
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"The goal and purpose "must be value for the patient," said Porter."
-----------

Value for the patient= perception of quality of care and value of care by the patient, i.e., patient satisfaction.

We do have one other card to play which, for the moment is still viable. Perception of risk to the administrator.
Replacing doctors with nurses= increased morbidity and mortality and increased cost and decreased patient satisfaction. Making individual hospital administrators own this risk in writing with thoughtfully crafted letters from counsel has prevented some losses to local NPs and CRNAs in my corner of the world. Ironic, our ally is the scum plaintiff lawyer. Kinda like being on the same side as Al Qaeda in Syria.

Also, patients who are educated don't want a nurse administering their anesthesia solo. This is where the ASA is missing the boat big time. It would be fairly easy but not cheap to educate people on what is going on.
 
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Crna's at my old place take call for $200k with Ob and they work essentially 3 days a week with one weekend call a month.

Again. Crna's aren't cheap.

Imagine having them work a full week plus call!

It's gonna to take $300k Plus to Make them work 50 plus hours a week with regular calls.

Where is your profit margin mr MBA?

Once the CRNAs and Anesthesiologist work in a "collaborative model" without "supervision" coupled with the large number of Anesthesiologist and CRNA graduates in the pipeline, they will be more than able to cover the demand for services. In fact, the supply at current rates will strongly exceed the demand.

Are you denying the large numbers of CRNAs being produced at this time? I can't speak to specific markets because there are always going to be variabilities in individual marketplaces due to geographical considerations that can lead to temporary shortages and increased salaries but over the longer term it should drop.

Also, if Medicare is paying 33% that of commercial, who is to say that commercial carriers won't drop their payments by significant amounts in the future?

Hospitals will also save money because they won't have to subsidize anesthesiologist departments like in the past.
 
Why yes, yes they do.

I suspect all non surgical fields will be feeling the wonderful NP pressure in the future.

Our esteemed economist from Harvard believes physicians are overpaid without value being added. Therefore, their salaries need to be cut in the interests of "efficiency and value" with expanding roles for our nursing colleagues.

Also, it is imperative that the profits of all hospitals go to the administration and MBAs at the top due to their great ability to understand "value", which is clearly far more valuable than the physician's service that is really just a commodity.

MBAs/Admins are the "big thinkers" and need to be paid.

You understand right? No hard feelings, its business brah.

How does the the value proposition help the patient?

Assuming everyday we are doing the best we can to keep our patients safe, avoid complications, ect....Seems like the patient pays for care no matter the outcome and either the hospital or insurance company pockets the money if we don't achieve the "outcome" metric they set.
 
Why yes, yes they do.

I suspect all non surgical fields will be feeling the wonderful NP pressure in the future.

Our esteemed economist from Harvard believes physicians are overpaid without value being added. Therefore, their salaries need to be cut in the interests of "efficiency and value" with expanding roles for our nursing colleagues.

upload_2016-11-15_21-1-10.png


How much value do these people add?



[/QUOTE] Also, it is imperative that the profits of all hospitals go to the administration and MBAs at the top due to their great ability to understand "value", which is clearly far more valuable than the physician's service that is really just a commodity. [/QUOTE]

Part of the equation of value (according to the esteemed economist above) was patient outcome correct? How well do the suits profiting from all this understand what goes in to patient care and outcomes? Why do they have the best ability to understand "value"? Seems like their "great ability" is more or less seeing opportunity to line their pockets.

[/QUOTE] MBAs/Admins are the "big thinkers" and need to be paid. [/QUOTE]

And how do we define the value metrics that determine wether or not they will get paid?

[/QUOTE] You understand right? No hard feelings, its business brah. [/QUOTE]

So the same guys who are coming up with this whole new vision for the "better of patient care", also turn around and say it's all about business?
 
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View attachment 210880

How much value do these people add?
Also, it is imperative that the profits of all hospitals go to the administration and MBAs at the top due to their great ability to understand "value", which is clearly far more valuable than the physician's service that is really just a commodity. [/QUOTE]

Part of the equation of value (according to the esteemed economist above) was patient outcome correct? How well do the suits profiting from all this understand what goes in to patient care and outcomes? Why do they have the best ability to understand "value"? Seems like their "great ability" is more or less seeing opportunity to line their pockets.

[/QUOTE] MBAs/Admins are the "big thinkers" and need to be paid. [/QUOTE]

And how do we define the value metrics that determine wether or not they will get paid?

[/QUOTE] You understand right? No hard feelings, its business brah. [/QUOTE]

So the same guys who are coming up with this whole new vision for the "better of patient care", also turn around and say it's all about business?[/QUOTE]


You have to understand the name of the game man.

The MBAs/Consulting/Political class really aren't interested in saving that much money OVERALL. They are just interested in REDISTRIBUTING the wealth to THEMSELVES.

Ergo, the terminology such as "increased efficiency" is a code word for "I saved money by cutting physician salaries, replacing them with NPs when I could, etc" so GIVE ME MY BONUS!

The more they cut the physician salaries, the more they can "earn" their bonus/salaries.

That's GOOD BUSINESS FOR THEM!
 
The article above says "the goal and focus must be value for the patient". I don't believe that's the primary motivating factor for the majority of MBA's/Suits working in health care.
 
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Also, it is imperative that the profits of all hospitals go to the administration and MBAs at the top due to their great ability to understand "value", which is clearly far more valuable than the physician's service that is really just a commodity.

Part of the equation of value (according to the esteemed economist above) was patient outcome correct? How well do the suits profiting from all this understand what goes in to patient care and outcomes? Why do they have the best ability to understand "value"? Seems like their "great ability" is more or less seeing opportunity to line their pockets.

[/QUOTE] MBAs/Admins are the "big thinkers" and need to be paid. [/QUOTE]

And how do we define the value metrics that determine wether or not they will get paid?

[/QUOTE] You understand right? No hard feelings, its business brah. [/QUOTE]

So the same guys who are coming up with this whole new vision for the "better of patient care", also turn around and say it's all about business?[/QUOTE]


You have to understand the name of the game man.

The MBAs/Consulting/Political class really aren't interested in saving that much money OVERALL. They are just interested in REDISTRIBUTING the wealth to THEMSELVES.

Ergo, the terminology such as "increased efficiency" is a code word for "I saved money by cutting physician salaries, replacing them with NPs when I could, etc" so GIVE ME MY BONUS!

The more they cut the physician salaries, the more they can "earn" their bonus/salaries.

That's GOOD BUSINESS FOR THEM![/QUOTE]


Yeah exactly, so why don't people at the ASA stand up and call them on this BS?
 
Part of the equation of value (according to the esteemed economist above) was patient outcome correct? How well do the suits profiting from all this understand what goes in to patient care and outcomes? Why do they have the best ability to understand "value"? Seems like their "great ability" is more or less seeing opportunity to line their pockets.
MBAs/Admins are the "big thinkers" and need to be paid. [/QUOTE]

And how do we define the value metrics that determine wether or not they will get paid?

[/QUOTE] You understand right? No hard feelings, its business brah. [/QUOTE]

So the same guys who are coming up with this whole new vision for the "better of patient care", also turn around and say it's all about business?[/QUOTE]


You have to understand the name of the game man.

The MBAs/Consulting/Political class really aren't interested in saving that much money OVERALL. They are just interested in REDISTRIBUTING the wealth to THEMSELVES.

Ergo, the terminology such as "increased efficiency" is a code word for "I saved money by cutting physician salaries, replacing them with NPs when I could, etc" so GIVE ME MY BONUS!

The more they cut the physician salaries, the more they can "earn" their bonus/salaries.

That's GOOD BUSINESS FOR THEM![/QUOTE]


Yeah exactly, so why don't people at the ASA stand up and call them on this BS?[/QUOTE]


I have a few reasons that include:

1) Old docs that really aren't interested in conflict
2) Doctors that are more interested in taking easy money from membership while not aggressively fighting the issue.
3) Greedy Anesthesia departments that train CRNAs in MASS due to Academic Chairman payoff. Chairmen feels insulated due to his job not being personally affected by large CRNA classes. If CRNAs get independence, why should he/she care in the long run? The Chair will have made their money.

MBAs/Consultants are RUTHLESS when it comes to this stuff and STICK TOGETHER. They have the CRNAs/Democrats backing them to the hilt as well.

Physicians are mostly egotistical and don't usually get along with each other.
 
We all agree its BS....they know it, we know it, not sure that the general public knows what's going on. The "value" proposition seems to be a front for the suits to make profits. It certainly, as far as I can tell, does not improve care or make it cheaper for the individual.

I'm just trying to envision this guy standing up at the ASA and lecturing on this concept of the future (which centers around cutting salaries of the people who actually deliver health care and lining the pockets of the suits) and people say what? Seriously, how does this fly?
 
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We all agree its BS....they know it, we know it, not sure that the general public knows what's going on. The "value" proposition seems to be a front for the suits to make profits. It certainly, as far as I can tell, does not improve care or make it cheaper for the individual.

I'm just trying to envision this guy standing up at the ASA and lecturing on this concept of the future (which centers around cutting salaries of the people who actually deliver health care and lining the pockets of the suits) and people say what? Seriously, how does this fly?

Its an awesome fraud actually but HIGHLY EFFECTIVE.

They can come in as the "heroes" who are saving the day from the "greedy physicians" who just want to "make money but don't care about costs".

They will do an analysis about "value additions and cost savings" that help "patients and sustain Medicare" and also peddle this savings to hospitals that can "save money without having to wastefully subsidize anesthesia groups".

They will accomplish this by the collaborative model (Lewin Group is a big advocate among other "consultant groups") with the help of MILITANT CRNAS such as the PRESIDENT of the CRNA advocacy union.

However, the "cost savings" that they will accomplish through ending the subsidy from hospitals, lowering anesthesiologists salaries by replacing them in the "collaborative" model and pushing down CRNA salaries due to oversaturation of CRNA grads will most go into the pockets of the MBA/Consultants/Admins/CEOs in the form of "bonuses" for meeting the cost "efficiency" metrics.

This crap has been done in MANY industries before. Mitt Romney at Bain Capital was an EXPERT at that.

Forget about the PE AMC boys as well getting a piece of the action.

Going to be VERY INTERESTING times.

Whose going to stop them?

ASA? Academic Chairs of Anesthesia Departments?

The only way to stop it would be to STOP TRAINING CRNAS TO BE INDEPENDENT.

Will that ever happen? I doubt it because Academic Chairman/ASA really don't give a damn as long as the money keeps coming in for them.

Its an unholy alliance of consultant groups/CEOs/CRNA advocacy groups/Democrats/some Republicans like Mitt Romney

Whose in the Anesthesiologists corner? Their own chairmen are selling them down the river.
 
What's stopping the hospital from hiring a CRNA then?

state laws, standard of care, etc. Plenty of hospitals employ CRNAs. I'd say most of them do. But they are still supervised by anesthesiologists. Why? Because federal law requires them to be supervised by physicians (except some individual states have opted out of that requirement) and orthopedic surgeons don't have malpractice that will cover them supervising a CRNA in a major medical center.
 
Perhaps what he's trying to say is that the current healthcare payment model IS the reason physicians are being replaced (ie, train an unspecialized group of people to perform a high paying service in multiple for less than the expected cost of a specialist). Could happen to any service provider in medicine as long as productivity exceeds overhead.

In his future vision of healthcare, anesthesiologists as service providers are completely replaced by CRNAs as an inevitability (regardless of payment structure). However, if the current payment structure is sustained, CRNAs will acquire their independence, and physicians will become "commodity players". That's probably why he thinks the debate is pointless. He's trying to get people to hop on board his value bus because the current system is not salvageable for anesthesiologists.

I'm guessing his argument is that it's harder to pay CRNAs as much in a value based system because they are less efficient/flexible in their roles than physicians. The hyperspecialization thing contradicts this slightly, and is pretty weird.

Why is the market definitely moving toward bundled? I don't see insurance companies switching to value based payments unless physicians want it. Otherwise, it seems very risky. There's no reason to disrupt the status quo unless insurance companies can corner both purchasers and suppliers. Am I missing something?


Here's the thing, his entire presentation/argument has nothing to do with CRNAs. It certainly has nothing to do with CRNAs replacing physicians. That is an entirely separate discussion. Literally the only mention of CRNAs in the original lecture is mentioning that anesthesiologists spend so much time worrying about CRNAs that they aren't realizing a potentially even bigger threat.
 
Here's the thing, his entire presentation/argument has nothing to do with CRNAs. It certainly has nothing to do with CRNAs replacing physicians. That is an entirely separate discussion. Literally the only mention of CRNAs in the original lecture is mentioning that anesthesiologists spend so much time worrying about CRNAs that they aren't realizing a potentially even bigger threat.
I'm glad at least a couple of you understand what's going on.
 
I'm glad at least a couple of you understand what's going on.
You know what they say about everyone getting ready to fight the last war ...

I don't know what the best answer is to the post-CRNA fight (cost containment and imposed austerity) but I do know I want nothing to do with the perioperative home. Maybe that's where the specialty is heading, but I'm just going to be a doctor in the OR.
 
You know what they say about everyone getting ready to fight the last war ...

Actually I don't. Would you mind enlightening me, please?
 
Here's the thing, his entire presentation/argument has nothing to do with CRNAs. It certainly has nothing to do with CRNAs replacing physicians. That is an entirely separate discussion. Literally the only mention of CRNAs in the original lecture is mentioning that anesthesiologists spend so much time worrying about CRNAs that they aren't realizing a potentially even bigger threat.

Although CRNAs aren't directly mentioned, how else are they going to contain anesthesiologist salaries without giving them strong independence considering surgical volumes?

Don't see how "specializing" in just "one aspect of medicine" insulates the physician salaries when you have a simple supply/demand problem for services when CRNAs become independent.

Even Anesthesiologists who do very complex procedures that CRNAs can't undertake will be cut due to many other physicians clamoring for those slightly higher paid spots, alleviating the "scarcity" that occurs.

How can they do the "periop" home concept without implicitly understand the CRNA independence issue?
 
state laws, standard of care, etc. Plenty of hospitals employ CRNAs. I'd say most of them do. But they are still supervised by anesthesiologists. Why? Because federal law requires them to be supervised by physicians (except some individual states have opted out of that requirement) and orthopedic surgeons don't have malpractice that will cover them supervising a CRNA in a major medical center.

Why can't CRNAs get independent malpractice coverage like anesthesiologists in the future?

After a few years of "data" from the VA, insurance companies will be able to determine insurance rates for CRNA independent service using "outcome" data.

Thats the purpose of the VA move.
 
You know what they say about everyone getting ready to fight the last war ...

I don't know what the best answer is to the post-CRNA fight (cost containment and imposed austerity) but I do know I want nothing to do with the perioperative home. Maybe that's where the specialty is heading, but I'm just going to be a doctor in the OR.
I think you will do just fine in a cardiac surgery "IPU". ;)

I actually agree with the article. It makes a lot of (common) sense to center surgical care teams around frequent conditions/surgeries. Anybody who's ever practiced general anesthesia, where you do different things every day, can attest to the increased productivity once you do the same thing a few days in a row. Boxing us in will be catastrophic to some of our skills, long-term, but hey, who cares about us?

That's what the hospitals want, that's what the surgeons want (working with the same people all the time, like a well-oiled machine, and having to only operate and not worry about the rest - but still direct everything, like absolute monarchs). Between what the anesthesiologists want and what the surgeons want, you guys can guess the very "difficult" choice. The periop part is here to stay, Obamacare or not. If the private groups resist, the hospitals will hire AMCs to do it. It's just a matter of time till the number of IPU-places reaches critical mass, and they prove that it saves money, and then many hospitals will jump ship.
 
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Although CRNAs aren't directly mentioned, how else are they going to contain anesthesiologist salaries without giving them strong independence considering surgical volumes?

Don't see how "specializing" in just "one aspect of medicine" insulates the physician salaries when you have a simple supply/demand problem for services when CRNAs become independent.

Even Anesthesiologists who do very complex procedures that CRNAs can't undertake will be cut due to many other physicians clamoring for those slightly higher paid spots, alleviating the "scarcity" that occurs.

How can they do the "periop" home concept without implicitly understand the CRNA independence issue?

separate issue

don't confuse the two or you are ignoring the realities of both
 
Why can't CRNAs get independent malpractice coverage like anesthesiologists in the future?

After a few years of "data" from the VA, insurance companies will be able to determine insurance rates for CRNA independent service using "outcome" data.

Thats the purpose of the VA move.


they do have malpractice insurance, it's just that in states that haven't opted out of the CMS rule the surgeon is legally responsible for supervising the CRNA so their med mal can go way up.

Also, even in opt out states you aren't seeing major medical centers that don't have anesthesiologists.

And no, the purpose of the VA thing isn't to determine insurance rates for CRNAs. There are already hospitals in opt out states that don't have anesthesiologists.
 
That's what the hospitals want, that's what the surgeons want (working with the same people all the time, like a well-oiled machine, and having to only operate and not worry about the rest - but still direct everything, like absolute monarchs). Between what the anesthesiologists want and what the surgeons want, you guys can guess the very "difficult" choice. The periop part is here to stay, Obamacare or not. If the private groups resist, the hospitals will hire AMCs to do it. It's just a matter of time till the number of IPU-places reaches critical mass, and they prove that it saves money, and then many hospitals will jump ship.


What we are pushing towards nationally is fewer independent hospitals and more mega health systems. Your small or medium sized hospital down the road will no longer be independent, it will be part of a health system network. And when you need a CABG, you don't go to your hospital, you go to the one in the system that specializes in cardiac care. A different one will do ortho and a different one will do neuro, etc. Now some big hospitals will still have everything, but the smaller hospitals are just going to get swallowed into mega health systems.

We've had some of it in the past, but I think that it will continue to accelerate.
 
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What we are pushing towards nationally is fewer independent hospitals and more mega health systems. Your small or medium sized hospital down the road will no longer be independent, it will be part of a health system network. And when you need a CABG, you don't go to your hospital, you go to the one in the system that specializes in cardiac care. A different one will do ortho and a different one will do neuro, etc. Now some big hospitals will still have everything, but the smaller hospitals are just going to get swallowed into mega health systems.

We've had some of it in the past, but I think that it will continue to accelerate.

Centers of "Excellence"
 
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Actually I don't. Would you mind enlightening me, please?
The CRNAs won the anesthesiologist vs midlevel war, in no small part due to the ASA's refusal to fight.

The next fight appears to be getting our share of bundled payments, meeting bogus quality metrics, etc.

There's an adage about nations and militaries preparing to fight the last war, e.g. nations still built battleships before WWII even though aircraft made them obsolete. Fixating on the last problem while not anticipating and preparing for the next. That's what I meant by fighting the last war, worrying about CRNAs when the next fight over the shrinking surgery payment pie is looming. I think that's what jwk was getting at too.

Maybe the ASA is right and we need to expand into perioperative physicians for the specialty to survive, but I'm going to choose to do the in-OR work I signed up for and just accept lower pay, if it comes to that.
 
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The CRNAs won the anesthesiologist vs midlevel war, in no small part due to the ASA's refusal to fight.

The next fight appears to be getting our share of bundled payments, meeting bogus quality metrics, etc.

There's an adage about nations and militaries preparing to fight the last war, e.g. nations still built battleships before WWII even though aircraft made them obsolete. Fixating on the last problem while not anticipating and preparing for the next. That's what I meant by fighting the last war, worrying about CRNAs when the next fight over the shrinking surgery payment pie is looming. I think that's what jwk was getting at too.

Maybe the ASA is right and we need to expand into perioperative physicians for the specialty to survive, but I'm going to choose to do the in-OR work I signed up for and just accept lower pay, if it comes to that.

How much lower pay would you accept considering the liability?
 
How much lower pay would you accept considering the liability?
Me personally (I know u weren't directing it at me)

250k. No calls no weekends 7-3pm.

Do one patient at a time. That's fine with me.

W2 benefits. Call out sick. Get paid. Don't give a F about "team work". Gotta take care of yourself

This is why Crna's have high satisfaction rate.
 
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Me personally (I know u weren't directing it at me)

250k. No calls no weekends 7-3pm.

Do one patient at a time. That's fine with me.

W2 benefits. Call out sick. Get paid. Don't give a F about "team work". Gotta take care of yourself

This is why Crna's have high satisfaction rate.

Seems way too high of a salary for those hours if competing with CRNAs for basic cases. That is basically pretty close to the salary now.

I figure they want to pay about 180K for that type of position with W2 benefits and 250K or so for full work schedule with call every 4 days or so in the future.
 
How much lower pay would you accept considering the liability?
Hard to say.

Somewhere in the neighborhood of $170/hr to sit my own cases and/or supervise residents.

I'll have 5 years left on my military commitment when I finish fellowship next June. When I'm out of the Navy and collecting that pension (and have the associated healthcare benefits), that'll be about the time the houses are paid off, last kid is through college, so I'll have a certain degree of freedom to be picky. I have no real geographic ties or strong desires beyond avoiding harsh winters.

I'll find something I can live with somewhere. :)
 
Seems way too high of a salary for those hours if competing with CRNAs for basic cases. That is basically pretty close to the salary now.

I figure they want to pay about 180K for that type of position with W2 benefits and 250K or so for full work schedule with call every 4 days or so in the future.
Dude. I have a standing offer with a Cush 4 day a week for $350k no calls no weekends right now up north if I want it.

U smoking crack. Truly smoking crack

U got overpaid govt workers (Linda Tripp making 100k with no college education in 1998)

Many making 120k easily these days office job
 

Key thoughts on physician compensation in value-based healthcare

Written by Laura Dyrda (Twitter | Google+) | November 15, 2016 |

"After joining Covenant, the hospital scaled back from 200 physicians to around 130 physicians and reorganized the compensation plans."

"For physicians overseeing midlevel providers, Mr. Rice described a stipend-based model delivering $1,000 to $2,000 per person and stepping down the compensation level with each additional person the physician oversees. "We've seen some big numbers for what physicians are paid for [supervision of midlevel providers]," Mr. Rice said. "We think that's a changing area.""

http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...n-compensation-in-value-based-healthcare.html
 
Key thoughts on physician compensation in value-based healthcare
Written by Laura Dyrda (Twitter | Google+) | November 15, 2016 |

"After joining Covenant, the hospital scaled back from 200 physicians to around 130 physicians and reorganized the compensation plans."

"For physicians overseeing midlevel providers, Mr. Rice described a stipend-based model delivering $1,000 to $2,000 per person and stepping down the compensation level with each additional person the physician oversees. "We've seen some big numbers for what physicians are paid for [supervision of midlevel providers]," Mr. Rice said. "We think that's a changing area.""

http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...n-compensation-in-value-based-healthcare.html

Correct thats the future.

People above pretending because there are high salaries for easier jobs right now are not seeing that "future" the CEO/economists/etc see.
 
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