Anesthesiology Residency and being Catholic

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What is the purpose of religion and science? Ultimately, it is to attain truth.

I don't think religion is about truth. For most, it's about explaining the as-yet unexplained in a reassuring, comforting way. For a few, it's a tool they cynically exploit to manipulate and control other people.

One is benign, one is not, but neither is about truth.


Robert Loblaw said:
Or to give people a reason to kill each other.

I don't think this is completely fair. Religion isn't a bad influence; at worst, it's a convenient excuse for people who are already bad. If not for religion, they'd find another reason to justify what they were going to do anyway.

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Yes, medicine used to be mostly art based on anecdotes and common wisdom, but it evolved and became as you called it " art based on science" it's based on science so profoundly, that it does not exist without it.
I am talking about modern medicine, which we all practice, unless you are practicing something like traditional Chinese medicine or natural healing.
I did not say you need to be an athiest, you can believe in whatever you want, but if you are going to apply religion to medicine you will be depriving your patients of many benefits that science had brought to medicine and that's not fair.




just what I would expect from an anesthesiologist...i am sorry to inform you that medicine (that includes passing gas) is an art..i am not going to debate this with you...

there are very few physicians who actually apply religion to their medical practices and dealings with their patients...you need to realize that religion is very important in many of your patient's lives...I would not expect an anesthesiologist to know this, so you are excused....I feel that you should stop trying to address topics that are not solely related to passing gas...this is my end of this debate..we can agree to disagree...if you need to get the last word in, feel free.................
 
just what I would expect from an anesthesiologist...

I would not expect an anesthesiologist to know this

It's surprising to me that in a thread that was started by a presumably religious med student polling Catholic anesthesiologists, when confronted by an argument, you resort to ad hominem attacks and a sweeping, contemptuous generalization of of all anesthesiologists.

Then again, I guess it stands to reason that you'd be illogical in this arena too.
 
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It's surprising to me that in a thread that was started by a presumably religious med student polling Catholic anesthesiologists, when confronted by an argument, you resort to ad hominem attacks and a sweeping, contemptuous generalization of of all anesthesiologists.

Then again, I guess it stands to reason that you'd be illogical in this arena too.



come again????????? did i attack you??
 
come again????????? did i attack you??

Yes, when you painted everyone in the field with the broad brush of
mille125 said:
just what I would expect from an anesthesiologist...

I would not expect an anesthesiologist to know this
you did, in fact, attack me.

But honestly, it's not so much that you hurt my feelings :), as I'm exasperated by the absurdity of your refusal to acknowledge or attempt to counter the arguments put forth in the thread. All you do is ASSERT, issue an AD HOMINEM ATTACK, followup by CLAIMING SPECIAL INSIGHT NOT AVAILABLE TO OTHERS, then THREATEN TO DEPART THE THREAD. Maybe you're new to teh internets, but most of us have dealt with this kind of "debate" many, many times before.

Sir, my 7-year-old son constructs better arguments about his bedtime. :rolleyes:
 
Yes, when you painted everyone in the field with the broad brush ofyou did, in fact, attack me.

But honestly, it's not so much that you hurt my feelings :), as I'm exasperated by the absurdity of your refusal to acknowledge or attempt to counter the arguments put forth in the thread. All you do is ASSERT, issue an AD HOMINEM ATTACK, followup by CLAIMING SPECIAL INSIGHT NOT AVAILABLE TO OTHERS, then THREATEN TO DEPART THE THREAD. Maybe you're new to teh internets, but most of us have dealt with this kind of "debate" many, many times before.

Sir, my 7-year-old son constructs better arguments about his bedtime. :rolleyes:



now it is you who is ahead of himself...i need to address the following points:

first, i never threatened to depart the thread (obviously i am still here). i simply said that i would not argue with plankton about the issue that we were discussing because it is obvious that we would have to agree to disagree on the art of medicine point.


second, where did you get this special insight comment from...have i ever asserted or implied that...give me a break..are you in the same universe..we are in the milky way...


third, i will have you know that i, myself, am an anesthesiologist. Manyof my classmates that i trained with are some of the finest people and anesthesiologists/physicians that i could ever know..however there is a segment of our specialty that has hurt and continues to hurt the specialty at large.....they are the 1) uncaring for their patients 2) greedy private practitioner 3) greedy academic chairman.....Segment #1 does not care about the patients and are in the specialty to avoid patient contact. They consistently hurt our public image because of public perception (which is important). Plankton's comments fit with this and that is where my criticism came from....Segment #2 hires as many CRNA's as possible to pad his/her pocketbook while doing the least amount of work. This doctor is responsible for most of the recent and past CRNA scope of practice issues...Segment #3 is actually the saddest of these groups. This represents the academic chairmen who should be guardians of our specialty. Instead they open new CRNA schools so that they can staff their centers with slave labor. They are destroying the future of the specialty. If you are not in this segment, then I have no negative/constructive comments to say to you. I am not attacking everyone or even the majority of the field. The specialty as a whole cannot continue to thrive without its members taking an introspective look. You will learn this soon enough.


I did not intend to post this long response, but you need to be edified.
 
For Catholic anesthesiologists out there, please help me out. Did you experience any ethical dilemnas during your residency? I'm specifically thinking of elective sterilization procedures like BTL. Is this something that is avoidable during residency, or can one choose not to be involved in such cases as a resident? Also, what about cases involving elective abortion? Please this post was not meant to debate these issues. I just want to get some honest feedback from Catholics in the field. Thanks so much.

Hey, I'm Catholic and believe what I want when it comes to things like this... If the pope tells you to cut your wrist will you do it? I think learning the techniques are fine and don't base all your decisions off a group of biased guys sitting around a round table... There is a fine line between evil and good...The body naturally terminates itself when there are problems with the growing baby. Some of the time its the mothers fault for using drugs, etc... So what's the difference between the mother smoking crack and causing an abortion or a doctor doing it? Personally, you know more science than them... Good Day...
 
It's a pity to see such a serious and honest thread turn sour.

Although much of the talk has centered around elective abortion, we should also consider a "noncontroversial" subject such as euthanasia (have you ever heard of the Netherland's pediatric euthanasia?).

As an intern, I've had a couple of patients or relatives ask me to commit euthansia. Did I do it? No. Why? Because I passed a moral judgement against their request. Beyond the legailty of the request, I don't think it's right to kill anyone. We're not ajudgemental. We pass judgements all the time to help and protect our patients and ourselves.

My point is this: whether you're for/against abortion, sterilization, euthanasia, or even artificially extending life beyond reason, you as a practicing physician are first and foremost a human person and should not be required to commit actions in violation of your conscience. Imagine if physicians were to one day be required by law to perform/assist in abortions when requested. That would set a precedence where physicians can be coerced to practice in circumstances against their will. Does that bring back memories of the human nazi experiments? What may seem reasonable and good to some today may actually come back in the future and haunt us. I'm all for protecting physician autonomy and our right to practice in the best interest of our patients and ourselves.

Anyway, here's my thought as a Catholic and as a future anesthesiologist:
1) There are rarely any emergent elective abortions. But you still have to make it clear to your employer that you are not willing to perform/supervise anesthesia in these circumstances and that they have to call in another anesthesiologist. Same goes for sterilization, etc. It may be alright to provide anesthesia for a C-section during which a tubal ligation may happen.
2) The principal of double effect applies in many circumstances. It is permissible to give morphine for comfort even though it may hasten death, but you can't give morphine with the primary intention of causing death. You can remove a cancerous uterus even though there is a fetus within it. Same goes for tubal ligation in the event of ectopic pregnancies. In most mother vs. baby situations, you would choose the mother.
3) You really can't argue that it's the surgeon who's the one actually performing the deed and that you're there merely for comfort and pain. Remember that anesthesia is an essential part of surgery, making you morally culpable to a certain extent (but probably less than that of the surgeon).
3) As you can see from the previous posts in this thread, you will encounter a lot of cynicism when you bring this up with your future employers and colleagues. It will take guts. It has to be done in a gentle and nonpompous manner. But in the end, you will have stood up for yourself and for every other physician.
 
just what I would expect from an anesthesiologist...i am sorry to inform you that medicine (that includes passing gas) is an art..i am not going to debate this with you...

there are very few physicians who actually apply religion to their medical practices and dealings with their patients...
.

I have to disagree with you here.. see 02/08/07 NEJM: Religion, Conscience, and Controversial Clinical Practices.

Refusing to provide accurate information or referrals for safe and legal procedures shows many physicans are applying their personal religious beliefs when handling patients.

Being in anesthesia, you may be a bit removed from those who provide the majority of reproductive healthcare..FP's, Pediatricians, and Obgyn's. As a first year student, I saw a FP flat out ignore an adolecent's request for birth control...even after the pt. reported she was sexually active. The physician provided no counselling, no literature was given to the patient...nothing. It was totally bizarre. Right before the patient left, I mentioned the local family planning clinic in the area and the doc wrote the number down for the patient. This type of poor medical care happens quite frequently, especially in the more rural and conservative areas.
 
yapstev, i trully appreciate your reply. as much as there is to be said, i can't be spending too much time on these postings because i'm almost at the end of my 2nd year, and have to study, study, study. but just wanted to say thanks. i'll get back to this board at a better time.
 
My point is this: whether you're for/against abortion, sterilization, euthanasia, or even artificially extending life beyond reason, you as a practicing physician are first and foremost a human person and should not be required to commit actions in violation of your conscience. Imagine if physicians were to one day be required by law to perform/assist in abortions when requested. That would set a precedence where physicians can be coerced to practice in circumstances against their will. Does that bring back memories of the human nazi experiments? What may seem reasonable and good to some today may actually come back in the future and haunt us. I'm all for protecting physician autonomy and our right to practice in the best interest of our patients and ourselves.

Here's what I don't get. I understand the Catholic church does not condone any sterilization procedure. I don't understand how they think it is appropriate to extend that doctrine to those not practicing the Catholic faith. There are plenty of other religions in the world, and they usually don't get upset with me if I don't practice their faith and protocol. I'm sure you're not upset with me when I eat meat on Friday. My Jewish friends don't mind if I consume pork. Then why won't you participate in a sterilization procedure for a non-Catholic individual? Is there a dcotrine stating Catholics can in no way support sterilization, or is it just that they can't practice it themselves? And while we're at it, please tell me how many practicing Catholic physicians truly do not use birth control of any means. Don't answer if you're not married. If you don't live the doctrine yourself, don't you dare tell someone else how to live their life.

I'm not sure why you mention some fictitious law demanding physicians perform abortion. Physicians aren't required to perform any other specific procedure. I can see no possible time when such a law would be proposed. The utter mention of such a preposterous situation compared to this discussion is completely ridiculous. And you should look up Godwin's Law. I learned about it earlier this week. Despite any other discussion you condemn on this thread, somehow you're the first to bring up Nazis.

What may have seemed reasonable and good 400 years ago certainly isn't so today. Unfortunately, the Catholic churh has been slow to update doctrine. And your statement about physician autonomy reeks of paternalism. I thought we were instructed to do what is best for the patient, not what is best for our own conscience. I've seen plenty of talk these days about patient autonomy, but not too many people are standing up for physician autonomy. Now I see why.

As for mentioning your beliefs to your "employer", I think you have someone else to worry about. Your partners. Your group will be contracted with the hospital. The hospital frankly doesn't care who shows up to give the anesthesia. Your partners, however, do. Make sure you mention your beliefs during your job interview. I'm sure your future partners would be interested to know they will have cover those procedures for you.

And to the OP, this thread was actually quite informative. It's sad that you single out one poster, a fellow Catholic, to thank. I find that kind of behavior to be far too common. When faced with a diverse dialogue on sensitive topics, some people too often ignore the beliefs of those different from them. You've learned little from this exchange if you don't truly consider the practices and beliefs of those that do not share your faith.
 
Like I said there is no debate. Religion and Medicine is mutually exclusive.

Medicine is a science based on evidence.
Religion is a search for meaning based on leaps of faith.
 
however there is a segment of our specialty that has hurt and continues to hurt the specialty at large.....they are the 1) uncaring for their patients 2) greedy private practitioner 3) greedy academic chairman.....Segment #1 does not care about the patients and are in the specialty to avoid patient contact. They consistently hurt our public image because of public perception (which is important). Plankton's comments fit with this and that is where my criticism came from.

This doesn't make any sense. So now I am accused of being "uncaring for patients" because I don't practice metaphysical reasoning and do believe in science?
How did you come up with this conclusion?
You need to notice that I don't play the unprovoked personal attacks game because I think it's childish.
 
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Hey, I'm Catholic and believe what I want when it comes to things like this... If the pope tells you to cut your wrist will you do it? I think learning the techniques are fine and don't base all your decisions off a group of biased guys sitting around a round table... There is a fine line between evil and good...The body naturally terminates itself when there are problems with the growing baby. Some of the time its the mothers fault for using drugs, etc... So what's the difference between the mother smoking crack and causing an abortion or a doctor doing it? Personally, you know more science than them... Good Day...[/QUOTE

First, I will commend you for believing what you want. This is admirable. However, I will point out that your refusal to cut off your hand would shock Abraham, who was ready to sacrific his son because God (or, in this case, his representative on Earth) had asked him so. Returning to my original point, it is this type of "progressive" religious thinking that has prevented Western Society from continuing to engage in religious wars that marked history prior to the Scientific Revolution and the Age of Enlightenment (Locke, Voltaire, etc.) When people began to reason with their beliefs, they started to become "bad" Protestants, Catholics, etc. I think it is great that you reason through your religious beliefs--but I doubt that the Catholic theocracy would agree with you. Part of the problem with "radical Islamists" is not so much that they are radical, per se, it is that they ACTUALLY BELIEVE what the Koran tells them to do. In essence, these are "good" Muslims. The rest of the peaceful Islamic world has, thankfully, rationally examined their beliefs, selected the ones that are most compatible with life in the 21st century, and appropriated the rest as fable.

All are invited to attend my first annual Good Friday Barbecue, featuring, of course, lamb kabobs. However, this may be the only Good Friday Barbecue, as I have begun to question the morality of eating meat...
 
All are invited to attend my first annual Good Friday Barbecue, featuring, of course, lamb kabobs. However, this may be the only Good Friday Barbecue, as I have begun to question the morality of eating meat...

I think you can barbecue tofu. Lamb sounds really good, though.
 
It's a pity to see such a serious and honest thread turn sour.

Although much of the talk has centered around elective abortion, we should also consider a "noncontroversial" subject such as euthanasia (have you ever heard of the Netherland's pediatric euthanasia?).

As an intern, I've had a couple of patients or relatives ask me to commit euthansia. Did I do it? No. Why? Because I passed a moral judgement against their request. Beyond the legailty of the request, I don't think it's right to kill anyone. We're not ajudgemental. We pass judgements all the time to help and protect our patients and ourselves.

My point is this: whether you're for/against abortion, sterilization, euthanasia, or even artificially extending life beyond reason, you as a practicing physician are first and foremost a human person and should not be required to commit actions in violation of your conscience. Imagine if physicians were to one day be required by law to perform/assist in abortions when requested. That would set a precedence where physicians can be coerced to practice in circumstances against their will. Does that bring back memories of the human nazi experiments? What may seem reasonable and good to some today may actually come back in the future and haunt us. I'm all for protecting physician autonomy and our right to practice in the best interest of our patients and ourselves.

Anyway, here's my thought as a Catholic and as a future anesthesiologist:
1) There are rarely any emergent elective abortions. But you still have to make it clear to your employer that you are not willing to perform/supervise anesthesia in these circumstances and that they have to call in another anesthesiologist. Same goes for sterilization, etc. It may be alright to provide anesthesia for a C-section during which a tubal ligation may happen.
2) The principal of double effect applies in many circumstances. It is permissible to give morphine for comfort even though it may hasten death, but you can't give morphine with the primary intention of causing death. You can remove a cancerous uterus even though there is a fetus within it. Same goes for tubal ligation in the event of ectopic pregnancies. In most mother vs. baby situations, you would choose the mother.
3) You really can't argue that it's the surgeon who's the one actually performing the deed and that you're there merely for comfort and pain. Remember that anesthesia is an essential part of surgery, making you morally culpable to a certain extent (but probably less than that of the surgeon).
3) As you can see from the previous posts in this thread, you will encounter a lot of cynicism when you bring this up with your future employers and colleagues. It will take guts. It has to be done in a gentle and nonpompous manner. But in the end, you will have stood up for yourself and for every other physician.

Say you are male and someone raped your wife... What would you do? Have your wife have a rapists baby? With his rapist genetics? It all comes down to the situation like you say.
 
I respect your attempt to merge the best of both worlds, but I would suggest that religion does not uncover truths to ultimate causality--it creates them. Unfortunately, there is no ultimate causality to our existence. It is a happy accident based on the occurence of events that had very low probabilities of occurence, but a veritable eternity of trials for realization. We must understand that we, as humans, are a particularly fortunate species of animal imbued with a unique talent of narrative construction. This talent has provided us with a "consciousness," as well as the ability to create stories of our creation (please see Daniel Dennett's discussion of the Center of Narrative Gravity). We have been fortunate to populate this planet for, let's ballpark here, 300,000 years. This is 0.0075% of the chronological history of this planet, and 0.002% of the chronology of the universe. If you only consider the history of this current civilization, let's say, 6000 years, these numbers fall to 0.00015% of the history of the Earth and 0.000042% of the history of the universe. That, friend, is humbling.

For hundreds of years, intellectuals have searched for answers to empirical questions. What is the shape of the earth? Which revolves around which, the Sun or the Earth? How did our world come to pass? In the past, those unable to answer the question would resort to created reasons, like God, or magic, yet never once has that strategy worked faithfully. Why should our inability to answer this question at this time be answered in the same fashion? We do not resort to this type of fanciful thinking in any other instance in our lives, especially as scientists. When we see something that defies all logic of our existence, like a clever Copperfieldian illusion, we don't say "That, my friends, is magic!" We appropriately and skeptically say, "I don't know how he did it, but there has to be a perfectly reasonable explanation." Scientific progress has slowly and methodically debunked each magical theory, with religion sheepishly acquiescing. Are we truly to continue to believe, as Catholic Doctrine insists, in the actual transmogrification of the Communion Wafer into the physical cells, organelles, and DNA of Jesus Christ?

There are some popular science books about the creation of the world and I would urge anyone interested to read them. One is "Fabric of the Cosmos," by Brian Greene, and the second is "Warped Passages," by Lisa Randall. They are fantastic and eloquently summarize current theory in the creation of the universe. One particularly interesting idea is the proposal that black holes are essentially the reproductive entities of the cosmos. Because of the incredible gravitational fields, matter (and, hence, tremendous amounts of energy) is compressed to the size of a fraction of a fraction of fraction of a the period that ends this sentence, providing the energy necessary to Bang in a Big way. In fact, in the earliest fractions of seconds defining the beginning of our universe, all the matter in all the cosmos (read: every atom that makes up you, me, the Earth, the sun, and every other planet, star, and comet in the universe [please note: this matter is, itself only a fraction of all the matter in the universe, the rest of it is so-called dark matter which Conservation of Mass predicts must exist!]) was compressed to this fraction of period, as well. In less than 10^-19 seconds, the universe had expanded exponentially.

Thanks for this post. It was the only one here that gave specific examples to support his argument. Here is my reply:

Articles of faith that contradict good science should be rejected. Accepting such creeds would be blind faith. Fair enough? Good science searches for the truth, and if an article of faith is true, it should not conflict with good science.

Regarding the concept that the universe made created in one week, this is adhered to by those who interpret Scripture in a purely literalistic manner. Scripture was written by many authors with varying writing styles. Messages were conveyed literally, figuratively, in metaphors, in parables, and even using imagery. Believe it or not, there are systems of faith out there that do not interpret the entirety of Scripture in a purely literalistic manner. The Catholic Church happens to be one of them: “There is solid scientific evidence that the fashioning of the world was a slow, gradual process extending over a long period of time. Some guesses run as high as two billion years.” (The Faith Explained by Leo Trese, ISBN: 9711170426, page 40).

Regarding the transubstantiation of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, it is the substance that is changed (hence, “transubstantiation”), and not the accidents of bread and wine. Thus its physical attributes remain, and hence, there is no human DNA present in the Eucharistic Host because the accident has not changed. Here are a couple of links to understand these terms better:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14322c.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01096c.htm
How can science disprove transubstantiation? It cannot. It this case, science deals only with the accidents of bread and wine (which has not changed in this case), and the substance is beyond scientific observation. So, again, an article of Catholic faith that does not contradict good science. Only this time, science cannot confirm or deny it, because its scope is only natural phenomena.

Feel free to engage me here. You're free to give more examples of how you think Catholic doctrine contradicts good science. It will respond when I have free time. Again, thanks for your specificity.
 
Thanks for this post. It was the only one here that gave specific examples to support his argument. Here is my reply:

Thanks, Thread Patrol. To all others: no need to respond to this thread unless you can provide specific examples. :sleep:
 
Anything that can't be disproven by definition can't be proven and thus contradicts good science.
 
Who had an accident?
 
This thread is about Anesthesia and being Catholic. The two are very compatabile 99% of the time (maybe more). Those cases you find objectionable should be handled privately in a sensitive manner. They will be few and most of your colleagues will kindly help out. Real world problems are "messy" and from time to time you may need to ask a small favor.
Fortunately, very, very few "objectionable" cases occur at night when you may be the only provider.

So, back on topic and stop arguing religion, politics and science. There is room in this world and this specialty for many view points. The key is tolerance, empathy and kindness towards your patients, your staff and your colleagues. Let's start by showing some towards each other.
 
Thanks for this post. It was the only one here that gave specific examples to support his argument. Here is my reply:

Articles of faith that contradict good science should be rejected. Accepting such creeds would be blind faith. Fair enough? Good science searches for the truth, and if an article of faith is true, it should not conflict with good science.

Regarding the concept that the universe made created in one week, this is adhered to by those who interpret Scripture in a purely literalistic manner. Scripture was written by many authors with varying writing styles. Messages were conveyed literally, figuratively, in metaphors, in parables, and even using imagery. Believe it or not, there are systems of faith out there that do not interpret the entirety of Scripture in a purely literalistic manner. The Catholic Church happens to be one of them: “There is solid scientific evidence that the fashioning of the world was a slow, gradual process extending over a long period of time. Some guesses run as high as two billion years.” (The Faith Explained by Leo Trese, ISBN: 9711170426, page 40).

Regarding the transubstantiation of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, it is the substance that is changed (hence, “transubstantiation”), and not the accidents of bread and wine. Thus its physical attributes remain, and hence, there is no human DNA present in the Eucharistic Host because the accident has not changed. Here are a couple of links to understand these terms better:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14322c.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01096c.htm
How can science disprove transubstantiation? It cannot. It this case, science deals only with the accidents of bread and wine (which has not changed in this case), and the substance is beyond scientific observation. So, again, an article of Catholic faith that does not contradict good science. Only this time, science cannot confirm or deny it, because its scope is only natural phenomena.

Feel free to engage me here. You're free to give more examples of how you think Catholic doctrine contradicts good science. It will respond when I have free time. Again, thanks for your specificity.



First, I wanted to acknowledge Ether's post, and agree with him on his points. But since we are talking religion and science, and at least two of us, with civility, I thought I could add a few more points:

Bluecephas, I would first commend you on your apparent ability to discuss this dispassionately. This is a very difficult conversation to have with someone without tempers flaring, so I usually avoid it.

To respond, this business of transusbstantiation (from the first link) is, to put it bluntly, somewhere between inanity and poppy-cock. With all due respects to the noted pagan Aristotle and the eminent philosopher and anatomist Descartes (who, I mentioned earlier thought that the pineal gland was the body's antenna for communicating with the soul), philosophy has come a long way since this time, and, in fact, there are very few publishing philosophers who would quote Aristotle as reference in the 21st century. In fact, classic philosophy is the practice of a bygone era, because it does not take into consideration the strides made in discovering truth in other arenas of investigation, namely science. For example, the notion that phenomenology as a useful introspective tool to understand fundamental truths about one's existence, has itself become dubious in light of scientific advances. We, as individuals, have little insight into how our minds actually work. As such, those possesors of specialized knowledge (cognitive and neuroscientists) are in better position to TRULY understand how our inner mind works. This is the difference between "seeming to be" and "actually occurring."

A good (but lengthy) example of this is an experiment which has been conducted in which a subject reads words and sentences on a screen and reports what he is reading. His reports are turned into a text of how the experiment "seemed to him to be." What the subject does not know is that the saccadic movements of his eyes are being detected behind the screen, and each time he saccades, THE WORDS ARE BEING CHANGED! When confronted with this truth, that what "seemed to him to be the sentences he saw and wrote down" were actually very different from what occured, the subject is dumb-founded and incredulous. What had seemed to the subject as having actually existed was not so at all.

"Consciousness" is the product of the software that runs on the hardware of our brains. In order to make our moment to moment existence fluid, our brains compose our experience from available input and ARE FORCED to make predictions about future experiences. You are very familiar with these types of predictions about experience because it is exactly these predictions that are fooled by optical illusions.

The purpose of this lengthy example is to show that if philosphy or theology is concerned with "what is true," then it must consider advances made in the neurologic and cognitive sciences. When Aristotle wrote those words, the concept of the atom, much less the brain being the nervous center of the body, was not yet established. I AM SURE that the empiricist Aristotle would clamor to update his outdated philosophy were he around today.
 
How can science disprove transubstantiation? It cannot. It this case, science deals only with the accidents of bread and wine (which has not changed in this case), and the substance is beyond scientific observation. So, again, an article of Catholic faith that does not contradict good science. Only this time, science cannot confirm or deny it, because its scope is only natural phenomena.

Furthermore, I've not been convinced by either fact or logic that anything exists outside of "natural phenomena." In fact, this paranormal world sounds suspiciously like the "aether" in which Descartes, an apparent expert on "substance" and "accident," supposed that we all bathed in--a convenient, completely fabricated answer to a question that, to the religious yet rational, would otherwise be inexplicable.

Is there some clear passage in the Bible, and I mean explicit, that lists God as outside the domain of science? And I truly mean something to the effect, "I am the Lord God Almighty, and I exist in such a fashion that all attempts at empirical investigations will be fruitless." This is something about which there should be no debate. After all, if God portends to be omni-everything, he should have known and anticipated this future challenge to his authority. Otherwise, this idea of anything existing outside of the realm of natural phenomena sounds like an after-market reconstruction in order to ameliorate the conflict that religious people have with their own indignant sense of reason. I suppose that you would also posit that the soul exists in this same "aether," that it has no responsibility to be even found in the same State or County, let alone in the body that it owns, and that it, too, is completeley beyond the domain of empirical investigation. I just don't understand. If this separation between natural and paranatural worlds existed at the time of the Bible's writing, why not just say so? Why has it become necessary to go to all these dubious after-market metaphysical lengths (and mounds and mounds of pseudo-intellectual prepositionary speech) to explain this apparent contradiction. I would pose the same question to the "Intelligent" Designers? If, rather than create the world in six days, God actually compressed all the matter/energy in the universe into one very small point and then, apparently, farted, why not just say so, or tell his prophets thus? If for the chance to wax artistic, the poetry is, frankly, not that good.

In the end, asking Scripture for evidence is useless: as you have previously stated, Scripture was written by numerous authors and should be interpreted insofar as it does not conflict with our more sensible intuitions. Were this not the case, we'd still slaughtering be the Midianites, whomever they may be in the 21st century. It will be impossible to discuss this further unless we both agree that we should only be concerning ourselves with things that either exist or don't exist--in the natural world, I will qualify, since that is the one in which we live. There is, however, hope for you--you have allowed that religion should adjust its "truths" in instances in which science suggests otherwise. This is good policy, because had this tact not been used in the 15th and 16th century, the majority of religious people would insist that the Sun revolves around the Earth. Whether the truth about the creation of the world is discovered in one year, ten years, or ten-thousand, at some point, this notion of God as the creator of the universe will join the ranks of the many other noble, albeit wrong, mythologies about the advent of our universe. You will have your chance to recant then.
 
I know this is not going to be popular, but I have to say that I don't think being religious is compatible with being a scientist.
You can either be religious and do whatever rituals they want you to do, or be a scientist, question everything, and search for logic.
We all agree, I think, that medicine is science, so I just can't see how you can be a physician and at the same time apply non scientific concepts to your every day practice.

Interesting article here (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/03/collins.commentary/index.html) from Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D., is the director of the National Human Genome Research Institute, who was an atheist until medical school and then became a believer. Interesting read and I agree with a lot of his points. To each their own beliefs, however, but I think that it is compatible to be religous and a scientist or doctor.

EJ
 
There are plenty of other religions in the world, and they usually don't get upset with me if I don't practice their faith and protocol. I'm sure you're not upset with me when I eat meat on Friday. My Jewish friends don't mind if I consume pork.

Would your Jewish friends mind if they were forced to spoon the pork into your mouth?

Personally I could give a crap whether you want to have an abortion or not. I just don't want to be directly involved in it.

P.S - I'm not Catholic or religious for that matter.

P.P.S - Don't eat Donkey meat
 
Would your Jewish friends mind if they were forced to spoon the pork into your mouth?

Personally I could give a crap whether you want to have an abortion or not. I just don't want to be directly involved in it.

P.S - I'm not Catholic or religious for that matter.

P.P.S - Don't eat Donkey meat

I always welcome poorly derived analogies with an out-of context quote from members with highly offensive usernames. :rolleyes: I really have no idea what your PPS infers. Should I presume that, too, is offensive?

I am wise enough to abstain from discussing topics such as abortion on an internet forum. My quote, which you included in your post, was referring to tubal ligation. I think it is a fair question to ask why a Catholic anesthesiologist would not wish to participate in a tubal ligation. I understand the practice is denounced by the church, for the sake of church members. It is not, however, against any moral belief that I can surmise. Sure, the Church believes the act of fornication to include the intent for procreation, but I think that argument is a stretch, and I think most Catholics in the modern world would agree. I don't think most choose to practice no birth control because they believe it to be a form of abortion. I think they make their choice based on Catholic doctrine. True abortion is a different story.
 
I always welcome poorly derived analogies with an out-of context quote from members with highly offensive usernames. I really have no idea what your PPS infers. Should I presume that, too, is offensive?

I'm so very sorry to offend your delicate sensibilities. You my friend are the one who compared the Jewish moratorium on eating animals with cloven hoofs to tubal ligation/abortion in the first place. I was trying to make the point that if someone finds an activity objectionable for whatever reason, they shouldn't be forced into participation. Why does the docterine of tolerance only apply when it is convenient to advance some wealth redistribution or social engineering goal?

I am wise enough to abstain from discussing topics such as abortion on an internet forum. My quote, which you included in your post, was referring to tubal ligation. I think it is a fair question to ask why a Catholic anesthesiologist would not wish to participate in a tubal ligation. I understand the practice is denounced by the church, for the sake of church members. It is not, however, against any moral belief that I can surmise. Sure, the Church believes the act of fornication to include the intent for procreation, but I think that argument is a stretch, and I think most Catholics in the modern world would agree. I don't think most choose to practice no birth control because they believe it to be a form of abortion. I think they make their choice based on Catholic doctrine. True abortion is a different story.

I am so very happy that someone is wise enough to decide for us all which Catholic beliefs are worthy of consideration and which are crap. Perhaps you'll be addressing us on Islam or Buddhism next?

EDIT: Username explanation:
Donkeypunch
1/4 cup carrot juice
1/4 cup orange juice
1/4 cup pink grapefruit juice
1 T grenadine
1 cup ginger ale

What does donkeypunch mean to you?
 
I am so very happy that someone is wise enough to decide for us all which Catholic beliefs are worthy of consideration and which are crap. Perhaps you'll be addressing us on Islam or Buddhism next?

What does donkeypunch mean to you?

a) You're not religious. I don't understand why you cop a sarcastic attitude when I question a religion which you don't practice. I direct my question to Catholics, or those well versed in their doctrine, to address.

b) I never suggested the OP should be forced to participate in a BTL. I was just pointing out the difficulties they might face if standing by their position throughout residency and into group practice. Your analogy was clumsy because I never said anyone should be forced to do anything. I am quite sure my Jewish friends would have no problem handing me an item of food that contained pork, and they wouldn't mind if I consumed it. One of them, in fact, would eat pork with me. Point is, I know countless Catholics that choose to practice the various methods of birth control. Church doctrine often isn't followed. If I ventured to guess, I would say that is one of the doctrines which is most often ignored. So I haven't chosen which are worthy of following. Catholics have.

c) Donkeypunch doesn't mean anything to me. I've never consumed the drink you mention. On the internet, however, donkeypunch has a rather crass association. I am certain this isn't the first time someone has mentioned this association to you. With your attitude, I can be pretty sure you know exactly what it means, but choose to hide behind drink recipes. And use a 5th grader's argument style of trying to pin the dirty association on my filthy mind. I'm not wise enough to decide which Catholic beliefs are worthy, but I certainly am wise enough not to fall for that juvenile trick.

Rest assured you didn't offend me, I just appreciate the irony of someone waltzing in to contribute to this particular discussion, posting under that association.
 
b) I never suggested the OP should be forced to participate in a BTL. I was just pointing out the difficulties they might face if standing by their position throughout residency and into group practice. Your analogy was clumsy because I never said anyone should be forced to do anything. I am quite sure my Jewish friends would have no problem handing me an item of food that contained pork, and they wouldn't mind if I consumed it. One of them, in fact, would eat pork with me. Point is, I know countless Catholics that choose to practice the various methods of birth control. Church doctrine often isn't followed. If I ventured to guess, I would say that is one of the doctrines which is most often ignored. So I haven't chosen which are worthy of following. Catholics have.

Bertleman is correct here. I have said this before. Modern main-stream Christians cherry-pick the Bible and Church doctrine for those tenets that are most amenable to a rationale, reasonable existence. If the Bible and Church doctrine were followed to the letter, religious tolerance would not exist. It is the failure to reasonably prune the Koran for those tenets that are amenable to 21st century existence that results in so-called radical Islamists. The only thing radical about these people is that they TRULY AND LITERALLY BELIEVE all of the Koran's teachings:

(K 2:190-191 Set 2, Count 3+4) [2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Most Christians, on the other, hand have learned to ignore passages such as the following, from Genesis, which seems to promote the offering of one's daughters to prevent the donkey-punching sodomy of Angelic house guests:

19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at evening; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. 19:2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. 19:3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat. 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter. 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, "Where are the men which came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them." 19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. [italics and bold mine]

Claims about the creation of the world are mutually exclusive. If an individual truly believes his faith's claims to the supremacy of his god, then, at best, he can be "tolerant" of another's religion, if not smugly patronizing of it.
 
a) You're not religious. I don't understand why you cop a sarcastic attitude when I question a religion which you don't practice.

I'm not a Pima Indian either, but I will defend a Pima Indian's right to believe what she wants, provided she doesn't require me to act on her beliefs or force me to live by them. Tolerance doesn't mean that you can pick and choose what to tolerate. You can't just decide that some beliefs are alright because they might be coming from a "protected" minority and others are wrong because they might be coming from a "privaleged" white girl.

Point is, I know countless Catholics that choose to practice the various methods of birth control. Church doctrine often isn't followed. If I ventured to guess, I would say that is one of the doctrines which is most often ignored. So I haven't chosen which are worthy of following. Catholics have.

So, because some Catholics don't follow church docterine, the OP shouldn't either? Argumentum ad populam.

c) Donkeypunch doesn't mean anything to me. I've never consumed the drink you mention. On the internet, however, donkeypunch has a rather crass association. I am certain this isn't the first time someone has mentioned this association to you.

I have no idea what erroneous associations someone might make about a user name. Just to clear up any confusion, I have defined very specifically what donkeypunch is for you. Do you need those measurements in metric?

With your attitude, I can be pretty sure you know exactly what it means, but choose to hide behind drink recipes.

What attitude would that be? I have been nothing but polite to you. I apologized for offending your sensibilities, although I didn't intend to offend you. I also complimented you on being so wise as to be able to decide what portion of the OP's religion is valid.

And use a 5th grader's argument style of trying to pin the dirty association on my filthy mind. I'm not wise enough to decide which Catholic beliefs are worthy, but I certainly am wise enough not to fall for that juvenile trick.

Who said anything about a dirty association or a filthy mind? All I did was give the recipe for donkeypunch just to further my point that I didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities. Once again, I am very sorry to have offended you by the choice of my username. I had no idea when I made the name that you would find a drink offensive. Please accept my deepest apologies. Tell me, was it the carrot juice?

Rest assured you didn't offend me, I just appreciate the irony of someone waltzing in to contribute to this particular discussion, posting under that association.

Oh so its all good then.
 
Dear Dr. Loblaw,
With the utmost respect, I would like to respond to something you posted recently.

Most Christians, on the other, hand have learned to ignore passages such as the following, from Genesis, which seems to promote the offering of one's daughters to prevent the donkey-punching sodomy of Angelic house guests:

I know nothing of the Bible and Christian belief. Am I to assume that the passages you referenced are your own translations of the original texts, which, by the way, are purported to be in a non-English language?

By reading your post I have surmised that your argument is - most Christians don't follow the Bible and church law, therefore ALL Christians should be expected to disobey all of the Bible and church law.

I was driving in to work yesterday (on call overnight). I was driving 55 which happens to be the posted speed limit on my route to work. By doing so I placed myself in the tiniest minority of drivers on the road. If I read your argument right then it applies to me! Thank you so much for enlightening me! I don't have to pay my taxes this year. Furthermore, if that upstairs neighbor turns his stereo on at 1 in the morning again I am allowed (by your argument) to go upstairs with a shotgun and settle the situation once and for all. You see, if most people are breaking the laws concerning vehicle speed, then all of the laws must therefore be ignored, even by a law abiding citizen like myself.
 
I have been nothing but polite to you.
...
I'm so very sorry to offend your delicate sensibilities....

I am so very happy that someone is wise enough to decide for us all which Catholic beliefs are worthy of consideration and which are crap. Perhaps you'll be addressing us on Islam or Buddhism next?

I don't consider condescension and sarcasm to be a part of polite conversation.

I have no idea what erroneous associations someone might make about a user name. Just to clear up any confusion, I have defined very specifically what donkeypunch is for you. Do you need those measurements in metric?

Who said anything about a dirty association or a filthy mind? All I did was give the recipe for donkeypunch just to further my point that I didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities. Once again, I am very sorry to have offended you by the choice of my username. I had no idea when I made the name that you would find a drink offensive. Please accept my deepest apologies. Tell me, was it the carrot juice?

As I mentioned, it should be absolutely clear to you what your username represents to many people.

**hint** it's not a drink.

You can act as though you are ignorant to any perceived notion of your name, but it's been pointed out to you before. No need for the coy sensibility. Again, your sarcasm on this point belies the fact that you do indeed understand the common connotation. As I said, it's not personally insulting to me, but it's hard for me to take seriously any advice from someone whose username is commonly thought to refer to a degrading sexual practice, particularly when commenting on the topic of religion and moral righteousness.

The continuance of analogies to discredit my question only makes the underlying topic less clear. It's really a very simple question. As an anesthesiologist, you have contracted with a suregeon or group of surgeons to provide a service. A procedure has been scheduled, for which there is a clear medical indication. You choose to not participate in the procedure for your own moral beliefs. You understand that the patient has no moral conflict with the procedure, and that your role is indirect at best.

A further point to this discussion involves the origin of certain religious doctrines. It has been clearly argued that the basis of a Jewish faith against certain hoofed animals involved the risk of infection prior to refrigeration. I can conceive a practical basis for a dictum against birth control. Want more Catholics to populate the world? Decry the use of any method of birth control. Catholic families will have more children, ensuring more Catholics.

My point is that religious doctrines are often based on achieving practical goals by the Church. They are then shrouded in some moral argument with inconsistent logic. Thus, I don't believe the question at hand is whether or not the Catholic Church condones a BTL. Many Catholics in this country practice birth control, and my money says the OP does, too. The question involves the OPs own morality and his forthrightness with his colleagues.

Furthermore, as doctors, I think we need to be cautious when integrating our personal belief system into our medical practice. I might find it morally reprehensible to treat the murderer or drunk driver who presents for life-saving intervention to the ER. We should do it anyways. We are not provided an education and the tools to heal so that we may use our own morality to determine who receives that care. This is why the argument of personal rights and religious freedom should not apply. I don't care what the patient does in their own home. She doesn't care what the anesthesiologist does, either. But when she presents for a BTL, the anesthesiologists' personal morality should not be applied to her.
 
Dear Dr DonkeyPunch,

With the utmost respect, and I mean this with as little respect as possible, please allow me to respond to you first by quoting you, then by quoting me.

I know nothing of the Bible and Christian belief. Am I to assume that the passages you referenced are your own translations of the original texts, which, by the way, are purported to be in a non-English language?

By reading your post I have surmised that your argument is - most Christians don't follow the Bible and church law, therefore ALL Christians should be expected to disobey all of the Bible and church law.

I am forced to assume that your ignorance extends beyond the Bible and the Christian belief, encompassing basic reading comprension.

My quotations are from the King James Bible which is Western Civilization's main connection to the 'holy' text. If you would like to call into question the veracity of a document that has been retranslated through centuries, I will only invite you--it will provide further ammunition to those of us who question its accuracy.

Modern main-stream Christians cherry-pick the Bible and Church doctrine for those tenets that are most amenable to a rationale, reasonable existence.

I cannot state my point any clearer than I already have. Nowhere do I address or endorse anything that resembles the sentiment you attribute to me, that since some don't follow doctrine, no one should. That Christianity is an archaic, yet popular, fairy-tale is reason enough not to follow Church Doctrine. With all due respect, and, again, I mean this as disrespectfully as possible, your "logical extension" of my argument is absurd, if not borderline ******ed. I fear for your patients.

I merely point out (and provide examples) that most 21st century Christians prune the Bible for those doctrines that are most amenable to modern living, and discard the misogynistic, homophobic, sodomistic ones. If you cannot understand this simple sentence, please burn your degree.
 
Furthermore, as doctors, I think we need to be cautious when integrating our personal belief system into our medical practice. I might find it morally reprehensible to treat the murderer or drunk driver who presents for life-saving intervention to the ER. We should do it anyways. We are not provided an education and the tools to heal so that we may use our own morality to determine who receives that care. This is why the argument of personal rights and religious freedom should not apply. I don't care what the patient does in their own home. She doesn't care what the anesthesiologist does, either. But when she presents for a BTL, the anesthesiologists' personal morality should not be applied to her.

I'm sure you've heard this in the clinic before: "X relationship holds from a population standpoint, but you must treat the individual patient as an individual..." or something to this effect. This approach applies here. On an individual basis, I agree with you that physicians should not apply moral standards to their patients--they should just treat them. Interestingly, and this is not meant to contradict you, only to make a point, from a population standpoint, physicians are forced to impose moral standards when deciding which populations benefit from the allocation of limited resources to "the greatest possible good." This is the particularly uncomfortable conflict that physicians face when helping to develop public policy. What is the greatest possible good? There is no way to do no harm. Someone must lose out when we make judgements. Public furor was piqued back in the day when a "God Committee" was formed in Seattle in order to decide which patients should recieve a limited number of kidneys for transplantation. Unfortunately, policy makers (read public health officials, bioethicists, and physicians etc.) need to define this nebulous and controversial notion...
 
come again????????? did i attack you??

are you from the only catholic country in southeast asia? i've never heard "come again" from anybody else i've ever met....and i've been places.
 
I was driving in to work yesterday (on call overnight). I was driving 55 which happens to be the posted speed limit on my route to work. By doing so I placed myself in the tiniest minority of drivers on the road. If I read your argument right then it applies to me! Thank you so much for enlightening me! I don't have to pay my taxes this year. Furthermore, if that upstairs neighbor turns his stereo on at 1 in the morning again I am allowed (by your argument) to go upstairs with a shotgun and settle the situation once and for all. You see, if most people are breaking the laws concerning vehicle speed, then all of the laws must therefore be ignored, even by a law abiding citizen like myself.

This construction is so unique a specimen of idiocy, I am going to have it stuffed and mounted on my wall. I am afraid that all that donkey-punching has knocked you for a loop. Are you sure that all you are putting in your drink is grenadine?
 
On an individual basis, I agree with you that physicians should not apply moral standards to their patients--they should just treat them. Interestingly, and this is not meant to contradict you, only to make a point, from a population standpoint, physicians are forced to impose moral standards when deciding which populations benefit from the allocation of limited resources to "the greatest possible good."

You are correct.
 
First, I wanted to acknowledge Ether's post, and agree with him on his points. But since we are talking religion and science, and at least two of us, with civility, I thought I could add a few more points:

Bluecephas, I would first commend you on your apparent ability to discuss this dispassionately. This is a very difficult conversation to have with someone without tempers flaring, so I usually avoid it.

To respond, this business of transusbstantiation (from the first link) is, to put it bluntly, somewhere between inanity and poppy-cock. With all due respects to the noted pagan Aristotle and the eminent philosopher and anatomist Descartes (who, I mentioned earlier thought that the pineal gland was the body's antenna for communicating with the soul), philosophy has come a long way since this time, and, in fact, there are very few publishing philosophers who would quote Aristotle as reference in the 21st century. In fact, classic philosophy is the practice of a bygone era, because it does not take into consideration the strides made in discovering truth in other arenas of investigation, namely science. For example, the notion that phenomenology as a useful introspective tool to understand fundamental truths about one's existence, has itself become dubious in light of scientific advances. We, as individuals, have little insight into how our minds actually work. As such, those possesors of specialized knowledge (cognitive and neuroscientists) are in better position to TRULY understand how our inner mind works. This is the difference between "seeming to be" and "actually occurring."

A good (but lengthy) example of this is an experiment which has been conducted in which a subject reads words and sentences on a screen and reports what he is reading. His reports are turned into a text of how the experiment "seemed to him to be." What the subject does not know is that the saccadic movements of his eyes are being detected behind the screen, and each time he saccades, THE WORDS ARE BEING CHANGED! When confronted with this truth, that what "seemed to him to be the sentences he saw and wrote down" were actually very different from what occured, the subject is dumb-founded and incredulous. What had seemed to the subject as having actually existed was not so at all.

"Consciousness" is the product of the software that runs on the hardware of our brains. In order to make our moment to moment existence fluid, our brains compose our experience from available input and ARE FORCED to make predictions about future experiences. You are very familiar with these types of predictions about experience because it is exactly these predictions that are fooled by optical illusions.

The purpose of this lengthy example is to show that if philosphy or theology is concerned with "what is true," then it must consider advances made in the neurologic and cognitive sciences. When Aristotle wrote those words, the concept of the atom, much less the brain being the nervous center of the body, was not yet established. I AM SURE that the empiricist Aristotle would clamor to update his outdated philosophy were he around today.

The concept of substance is not subject to the whims of modern philosophers. It is a permanent reality that we experience every day, whether you notice it or not. Aristotle believed that certain things are permanent, not subject to history, politics, or culture. He would not have given in to the modern philosophers on this. Being “up-to-date” applies only to those things that do change.

Going back to our transubstantiation-vs-science issue, it is really a none-issue since there is nothing empirically observable.

I empathize with your frustration. Even I, hopelessly Catholic, have to admit the difficulty that we face. Although I do believe that the existence of a prime mover or an uncaused cause can be achieved by reason, it is at best difficult and non-evident. It has to be demonstrated to me, and in my life experience it has been.
 
Dear Dr. Bertleman,
Thank you for your very well written and reasonable response. I don't think we are going to get anywhere on the username issue so I will drop it.

As an anesthesiologist, you have contracted with a suregeon or group of surgeons to provide a service. A procedure has been scheduled, for which there is a clear medical indication. You choose to not participate in the procedure for your own moral beliefs. You understand that the patient has no moral conflict with the procedure, and that your role is indirect at best.

If the OP signs a contract with a group of surgeons to provide anesthesia for abortions and tubal ligations then you definately have a point. The problem, as I see it, is that the OP is planning on being a resident. One could easily argue that the OP is on unequal ground when it comes to contracts. If you wish for an elaboration on what it is like to be a medical student looking for a residency and the NRMP etc. I am sure there are innumerable people who would love to expand that discussion. Suffice it to say that when signing a contract with a residency program one is not in a position to negotiate particulars - at all. The point I am trying to make is that regardless of why the OP doesn't want to be involved in abortions or tubal ligations, her viewpoint should be respected and accomodated. Regardless of whether you believe the Catholic church doctrine, the OP clearly does.

A further point to this discussion involves the origin of certain religious doctrines. It has been clearly argued that the basis of a Jewish faith against certain hoofed animals involved the risk of infection prior to refrigeration. I can conceive a practical basis for a dictum against birth control. Want more Catholics to populate the world? Decry the use of any method of birth control. Catholic families will have more children, ensuring more Catholics.

Sir, we are rehashing old ground again. Your argument is that since the tubal ligation/birth control doctrines are most likely born of practical reasons. The point is, so what? To the OP, it is docterine, period. That is where the discussion ends if one is tolerant.

My point is that religious doctrines are often based on achieving practical goals by the Church.

If there is any doubt as to my summation of your argument the above quote should clear it up.

Many Catholics in this country practice birth control, and my money says the OP does, too. The question involves the OPs own morality and his forthrightness with his colleagues.

This is argumentum ad populam and you are making a baseless assumption about the OP. I'm sorry but you have not presented a valid argument. Besides, whether the OP follows ALL of the docterine of the church or not is not the issue. The OP, for religious reasons does not want to be involved with tubal ligations or abortions. In that situation you say OK and it is the end of the discussion.
 
Dear Dr. Loblaw,
I have given you no reason to be nasty and disrespectful, yet you have chosen to post in such a way. I can only assume that your use of ad hominem is intentional and you are using it because you don't have an argument. I'm sorry, but by using ad hominem you have invalidated your argument. Here are the instances I am referring to:

I
am forced to assume that your ignorance extends beyond the Bible and the Christian belief, encompassing basic reading comprension.

That is an incorrect assumption and two ad hominems in one sentance.

With all due respect, and, again, I mean this as disrespectfully as possible, your "logical extension" of my argument is absurd, if not borderline ******ed. I fear for your patients.

Ad hominem X 2.

This construction is so unique a specimen of idiocy, I am going to have it stuffed and mounted on my wall. I am afraid that all that donkey-punching has knocked you for a loop. Are you sure that all you are putting in your drink is grenadine?

I count 3 in that brief paragraph.

Now to the meager substance of your invalidated argument.

Nowhere do I address or endorse anything that resembles the sentiment you attribute to me, that since some don't follow doctrine, no one should.

Here are a few instances where you have done exactly that:

Modern main-stream Christians cherry-pick the Bible and Church doctrine for those tenets that are most amenable to a rationale, reasonable existence

and

I merely point out (and provide examples) that most 21st century Christians prune the Bible for those doctrines that are most amenable to modern living, and discard the misogynistic, homophobic, sodomistic ones.

Most Christians, on the other, hand have learned to ignore passages such as the following, from Genesis, which seems to promote the offering of one's daughters to prevent the donkey-punching sodomy of Angelic house guests:

If your point is not "Most Christians ignore some passage and doctrines so they should be comfortable ignoring others," then what is it?

I suspect that the root of this whole issue is this statement:

That Christianity is an archaic, yet popular, fairy-tale is reason enough not to follow Church Doctrine.

Please click the link for a definition of bigot.
 
You wouldn't make Catholics provide abortions just like you wouldn't make Muslims eat pork just like you wouldn't make Baptists drink just like you wouldn't make Methodists study their Bible.

Haha, just kidding, but seriously, why is this thread 2 pages long?
 
Haha, just kidding, but seriously, why is this thread 2 pages long?

So that we can all refresh our knowledge of religious doctrine and get a lesson in latin.

Seriously though, I wonder if there are any anesthesiologists who are Jehovah's Witnesses and if so, do their partners administer all of their blood transfusions for them. That would be an interesting dilemma. I suspect that they would simply not choose this field because of the ethical dilemma. Anybody ever heard of an instance like this?
 
Dear Dr. Bertleman,
If the OP signs a contract with a group of surgeons to provide anesthesia for abortions and tubal ligations then you definately have a point. The problem, as I see it, is that the OP is planning on being a resident. One could easily argue that the OP is on unequal ground when it comes to contracts. If you wish for an elaboration on what it is like to be a medical student looking for a residency and the NRMP etc. I am sure there are innumerable people who would love to expand that discussion. Suffice it to say that when signing a contract with a residency program one is not in a position to negotiate particulars - at all. The point I am trying to make is that regardless of why the OP doesn't want to be involved in abortions or tubal ligations, her viewpoint should be respected and accomodated. Regardless of whether you believe the Catholic church doctrine, the OP clearly does.

I understand residency contracts. Mine is sitting right in front of me. Thus, I will politely decline any discussion of residency searches or the NRMP. The point I presented in a much earlier post was that her residency is only one immediate consideration. In residency it will be very easy for her to ask for backup if a BTL presents. The endgame for her is (likely) a private practice group. Things become somewhat more complicated then. Then it is far more likely she will be the only individual on call on certain nights. Again, my point in earlier posts is only that she should be very forthright in her contract negotiations, not assuming she should be granted some right to decline certain cases. I don't believe her viewpoint should be accommodated any more than the MS3 who posts saying they must have a snack break every 3 hours. If her viewpoint is that important, she must find a group that will accommodate her. I know it's semantics, but the subtle difference means quite a bit.


This is argumentum ad populam and you are making a baseless assumption about the OP. I'm sorry but you have not presented a valid argument. Besides, whether the OP follows ALL of the docterine of the church or not is not the issue. The OP, for religious reasons does not want to be involved with tubal ligations or abortions. In that situation you say OK and it is the end of the discussion.

It's not a baseless assumption; it is based on statistics. Most Catholics in this country practice some method of birth control. Thus, it is at least highly plausible that the OP does. If she indeed does, I don't think her decision to decline a BTL holds any water whatsoever. Frankly, I think that is an important question.
 
If your point is not "Most Christians ignore some passage and doctrines so they should be comfortable ignoring others," then what is it?


(1) Why are you so eager to add "so they should be comfortable ignoring others" to my statements??!! I have never said that. I am saying that most modern Christians are "bad" Christians insofar as they construct their religion so as not to offend their modern sensibilities, and ignore other moralities provided to them in the bible, like gang-rape--PERIOD!!! It's an observation! Furthermore, my argument are not ad hominem. I am not insulting your character and using this as REASON to invalidate your claims--I am simply insulting you. Your claims are invalidated by a close reading of my posts, nowhere of which do I make the claim that since most do something, all should. I simply observe that most do.

(2) You are thoroughly mistaken in calling me a bigot. Why should religious beliefs hold protected status from reason? If the OP believed that the 'empty' space between objects was filled with aether, would I be a bigot in pointing out that, in fact, the 'empty' space is filled with billions of carbon, nitrogen, and oxygen atoms? My objections to someone's beliefs does not make me intolerant of them...
 
You are correct.

What?!!!
Doing the most possible good with limited resources is the exact opposite of what we do. The medical system in the US provides the most funding to those least likely to benefit, the dead or almost dead, because they are part of a large voting block called the AARP. The majority of money is spent on people who are about to die, who we know are going to die, and we order enless tests, imaging, and procedures to make everyone feel like something is being done even when it is clearly futile. I just couldn't disagree more with the statement that "from a population standpoint, physicians are forced to impose moral standards when deciding which populations benefit from the allocation of limited resources to "the greatest possible good." Don't get me wrong, hospice and palliative care are good and important, but much of what is done at the end of life is just burning money.

I do agree with Bertelman that asking about her birth control practices is relevant. If she already doesn't practice what she preaches, then what the heck is the argument about. On the other hand, the discussion could just as easily focus on a hypothetical catholic who doesn't use birth control...
 
I agree. All joking should be strictly banned from internet forms. No laughing. Everyone should act as though they are at a funeral 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week. Thanks for opening our eyes gator.

Yeah, i agree with this guy.

No grinning or smirking either, only grunting. We must toil under the hammer of the man. Everything must be very serious and heavy.

We must submit all posts and thread for review before they are made public.
 
So sad to have missed the old science vs religion conversation.

...to OP, I have often wondered the same thing. I'm also considering anesthesia, but as a Catholic, I would not do abortions and most BTLs.Just try to aim for a larger program that could better accomodate switching cases, especially when on call.

Can somebody scientifically prove why science should be the authoritative mode of understanding ourselves and the universe, or at least why it is better than the Catholic view (or any religious view for that matter)?
 
So sad to have missed the old science vs religion conversation.

...to OP, I have often wondered the same thing. I'm also considering anesthesia, but as a Catholic, I would not do abortions and most BTLs.Just try to aim for a larger program that could better accomodate switching cases, especially when on call.

Can somebody scientifically prove why science should be the authoritative mode of understanding ourselves and the universe, or at least why it is better than the Catholic view (or any religious view for that matter)?
If you don't think science is the "authoritative mode of understanding ourselves and the universe" please do the world a favor and don't practice medicine.
Modern medicine is based on evidence and science 100%.
 
If you don't think science is the "authoritative mode of understanding ourselves and the universe" please do the world a favor and don't practice medicine.
Modern medicine is based on evidence and science 100%.

... but I don't practice modern medicine, I'm a medieval doctor.
 
If you don't think science is the "authoritative mode of understanding ourselves and the universe" please do the world a favor and don't practice medicine.
Modern medicine is based on evidence and science 100%.

If the purpose of medicine is to serve the good of health, is this established by science or some other type of knowledge?
 
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