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Discussion in 'Anesthesiology' started by smokinjoe, Dec 9, 2001.
just want to know how diffucult it is for D.O.'s obtaining anesthesiology residencies
Not at all. Just go to the google search engine and type "anesthesiology" and "osteopathic" and see what comes up. Plenty of D.O.'s match in anesthesia every year.
DOs match very well into Anesthesia. The schools that do have match lists online (AZCOM, WUHS-COMP, and TUCOM) showed the class of '01 matching at UCSF, UCLA, UC Davis, Columbia, and so forth. I know that at my school at least, the one who matched at Columbia was at the bottom 25% in our class, but he did score a 230 on the USMLE. He was offered several out-of-match positions in Anesthesia and he ultimately accepted Columbia's offer. Look at the match lists for DO schools that you interview at. I'm sure you will see many DOs who matched into competitive Anesthesia programs.
I know several classmates in my osteopathic school doing very well with the anesthesia interview trail. They are accumulating interviews at good programs in the northeast this year. However, it looks like that it is more competitive this year compared to last. I think this is a growing trend and will be even more competitive next year. Will it parallel to what has happened in radiology? Only time will tell.
I sure hope not.
I think that popularity waxes and wanes in any given program. There are a lot of DO's in gas, and there will continue to be. Personally, I saw more than a few on the interview trail this year.
As for the 2005 Match, in about a week now we'll know the outcome of just how popular anesthesia was this year.
A friend of mine already signed with Hopkins anesthesia as well as having very prominent programs offer interviews. I myself have interviewd at many "top notch" programs (however you rank them?). The best advise is to take both the COMLEX and USMLE. That way the PDs have a way to compare you to allopathic grads. I can't tell you how many interviewers said it was a good idea for me to have taken both Lic. exams.
The other posts are correct in that it is getting very competitive. I'll let you know in a little over a week how it went.
i don't understand why this thread is being rehashed after 4 yrs. it's already been discussed through many threads. the short anwer is yes, d.o.'s in the last 2 yrs including this yr (see above post) are getting into good places like hopkins, upenn, brigham and women's, u.chicago, nyu, wake forest, u.rochester, u.pitt, etc.
As Test Boy succintly points out - this has been discussed ad nauseum & no, as a DO, you will not be at a disadvantage. Personally, I think this urban legend continues in DO schools as a convenient excuse not to try for students intimidated by the process. Much easier to believe in the nay-sayers & not even try than to forge ahead...
If you want it badly enough, give it a try. To do otherwise, you will never know.
Oh...and by the way...I am a DO in a top-notch anesthesiology program & have another DO for a classmate: 2 of 8 in my anesth class are DOs. And, I believe there is one in the class behind me doing their intenrship somewhere else. Furthermore, I interviewed at several programs that the nay-sayers told me "they don't allow/take DOs." or "I was told they have a policy against accepting DOs". My counter - if they are so opposed, officially or unofficially, why in the hell would they waste a precious interview slot on me?
My reaction to all of these tales of misery? Prior to application season opening up, I sent letters of introduction to all of the programs I was interested in & followed them up with a phone call a couple of weeks later. I rec'd an impressive degrees of responses to my letters - all positive & all seemed impressed at my gumption at having done so. I followed most all letters with phone calls 2~3 weeks later. And, I even took a week of vacation to visit 3 programs prior to applications going out. I was warmly welcomed & subsequently invited to interview at all of them.
Anesthesiology several years ago was VERY VERY easy to get into. Even sub-average applicants had their pick of where to go. For the last few years it has been getting more and more competitive. Because of the competition, as a DO, you will have a harder time matching into better programs. I think it would be silly to lie to you and say that many of the better programs would not prefer MD's.
If you passed the USMLE (I'd say even around >205), have a couple of decent letters, a SICU & allo gas rotation, and apply broadly you're gonna match somewhere via ERAS.
Heck, if you have a strong USMLE (>220 for anesthesia, which is purely anecdotal), strong letters, good rotations, and apply broadly then you'll be competitive and match at "upper tier" programs. I know this sort of thinking is considered counterintuitive by some on SDN but a strong applicant is a strong applicant. So you may get bounced/denied by roughly 3 programs at the moment. Big deal, there are TONS of spots at great places.
No matter what anesthesia is NOT in the league of radiology, supbspecialty surgery, or even GS (not a slam on GS) as far as competitiveness is concerned.
and I am glad they do. Having many DOs in top programs lowers the reputation of the program since they are seen as inherently inferior.
i think that kind of thing goes a long way, calling and writing and showing showing interest definitely helped me get into school
when the match list comes out this year please post some good info for those interested in matching into gas, im only a ms1 so I am worried it will become like radiology by then. that has to free up spots somewhere tho so who knows.
How hard would it be to get into a program in the middle of nowhere as an allopath?
I dont think you are good people. You havent had a nice thing to say to anyone ever. What would your mother say?
ignore function works
She says that the truth although painful is necessary.
Hmm...thats not what she told me was 'painful yet necessary'.
I am so laughing my @$$ off at this reply!!! I no longer get frustrated by folks who truly cannot see the forest for the trees. This argument of DO vs MD is so very very lame. It generally only thrives w/i pre-med circles...but obviously survives in some form, fortunately a small circles, into medical school.
A piece of advice to you -- in the process of earning your stripes as a physician (in the eyes of your patients, nurses, resp therapists, other housestaff & the staff level physicians), the initials scrawled behind your illegible signature will not amount to a hill of manure. You will have to earn the respect of these people by how well you function as a physician, your capacity to care for patients as people & your ability to get along well with the entire medical team. In none of the critical, challenging tasks does MD or DO get you any credit what-so-ever. The physician who is a reflection of you, as a person, is the only way to punch this ticket.
Oh well...as I said...no stress - I only find it humorous. You have much to learn grasshopper...
Its true that you will have to gain respect of others by the work that you do, however it is silly to say that people will not look at you differently based on the MD or the DO after your name. If no one thought that way, we would not be having his discussion.
This is really not an attack on DO's, but lets face reality. THis is the way the world is... why cant we just admit it?
Thread, please die.
"We" are not having this discussion, unless you have a mouse in your pocket - there is no 'we'. 'I' was merely commenting upon & passing along ACTUAL observations from the real world - not med student/pre-med supposition - on this ludicrous & massively fatigued topic.
I am not so naive as to even hope said discussions will go away or even decrease by passing along real world observations. Just like unfounded, juicy gossip - urban legends seem to have a life all their own & persist despite the truth being laid out before you. Only through living & experiencing will you discover that these myths are indeed just that - unfounded tales & so much BS.
At one point, I wuld have emphatically agreed with you. And, if this descends into a flame war, I will not hesitate to close it. However, questions about the mythical "MD v DO" issue are legit & need to be dealt with, as long as the discourse remains mature & professional. There are lots of folks out there either considering DO school or are DO students who are really concerned over these issues due to perpetuation of rumors of "DOs can't do this" or "DOs aren't allowed here". I may have been somewhat irreverent in my tongue-in-cheek reply - it only exemplifies the frustration that I & many others feel when this specter yet again raises its head.
Hopefully, eventually, with repetition & education this BS will at least slow, if not go away...
At the community hospital where I've done several 3rd year rotations, there are many DO's, and I have NEVER seen a patient inquire about this issue. Heck, most of the time they just assume that I'm a doctor.
Man, we got OMD heated up? Never seen that before. Once you hit resident level you will soon see that it really doesn't matter what the hell comes after your name. You have your option of earning three labels, be it nurse (who will boss your resident ass around and judge you HARD no matter what you do), janitor, PA (who WILL attempt to boss residents around, how you like them apples), or physician: 1) you are an idiot, 2) You simply get by, 3) you are sharp. First impressions are everything so you'd better get it right the first time or you will have to work damn hard proving you're not an idiot for quite some time.
Maybe the average white collar house mom with neck pain will ask, "whats a DO anyways" as you are treating her, but for the most part it doesn't come up. There is resistance in the surgical community (which is amenable to personal experiences as I can testify) but outside of that it is minor. As above, once you prove yourself, no matter what position you hold in life, then you earn respect.
Enjoy this perspective now because once you are in the trenches its tunnel vision buddy.
Thanks for the wonderful trite SDN fodder.
This argument is really sillly to argue. On one side people say that having an MD vs DO doesnt matter, but on the other side people will say that it does matter. No one will convince the other, correct?
However to make my LAST point on this subject. Just the fact that there people on this very forum who are arguing this point proves the fact that people in reality do look at the MD or DO degree after a person's name. If this MD vs DO was such a non-issue, why do people bring it up? Because the perpetual myths passed on from med student to another? I dont think so. People bring it up because people believe that DO students in general (please dont quote me specific situations where someone had awesome MCAT and GPA and could go to any MD school but chose to go to DO school....i am saying generally) were the weaker applicants to medical school and also think they are generally weaker applicants for residency programs. If looking at MCAT, GPA and Step scores, you cant really argue against this.... and im sure as many out there are going thru the applicatoin process or have gone thru it, DO applicants have a HARDER (note i said harder, not impossible) time matching into the more competitive residencies.
This is not specific to the MD vs DO argument. THis argument holds true among different MD schools as well. Someone with a Hopkins or Harvard MD degree will be regarded much more highly than someone with a degree from one of the caribbean schools or one of the lower tier MD schools. No one out there can tell me that many patients nor other doctors arent atleast curious as to where people went to medical school.
Just to specifiy, this discussion isnt really about can DOs do this or that...its more of how much more difficult is it for DOs (i am assuming for getting residencies), how differently do ppl look at DO's vs MD's, etc, etc. The only reason why i responded to this is because people are giving the false impression that DOs are looked at as completely equal to MD's in EVERY way. We all know that is not true.... especially when every MD is not equal to every MD!
No more replies on this subject from me... peace out!
See you on the wards dude...oh wait, I wont. I'll be in the OR and maybe you'll be in medical school.
Well, I'm sure it's probably difficult for a DO to match in some fields, but this question was posted in an anesthesia forum and as I understand it, anesthesia is NOT particularly competitive just b/c of the huge number of spots. As for your comments about who is more regarded, it really doesn't matter (especially if you're going into private practice like most people). If you graduate from the crappiest foreign med school and match in the crappiest community program, guess what? You're still a doctor when you finish and you will get a job. And I can guarantee you that a huge portion of this country doesn't even know that DO's and caribbean med schools exist. To them, doctor means doctor, so they won't care. (and by the way, I am a MD student at a top 25 med school, so I have no vested interest in this discussion.)
It's funny how you make a comment, yet you refuse to further discuss the issue, like someone else mentioned, the general public doesn't care about the whole M.D vs. D.O thing, the only people who care are ignorant pre-meds. BTW, Ive heard that M.Ds who graduate from Caribbean medical schools are much more susceptible to scrutiny by the general public and the medical comunity than D.Os.
Exactly!!! You prove my point.
i'm gonna somewhat disagree with the above statement. if you graduate from medical school, yes you are a doctor. however, credentials are aways important. the anesthesiology market is still pretty good right now, so a dinky donk residency will still get you a job. but wait until the market tightens up, and you'll see that your residency program, and in some occasions, your medical and undergraduate school reputation will only help you in getting a desireable job.
btw, just the fact that the majority of patient population does not know the difference between MD vs DO, does not neglect the debate.
This thread blows but I'm drawn to it as gazers are to a horrible catastrophic road wreck.
There's still time for MEEEEEEEE!
"AAMC officials said schools need to start planning now to prevent the shortages that at least two studies have predicted. One forecast, by Richard Cooper, MD, director of the Medical College of Wisconsin's Health Policy Institute, expects a shortage of 200,000 physicians by 2020. Another study by Ed Salsberg, for the Council of Graduate Medical Education, projects an 85,000-physician shortfall by 2020.
Numerous medical specialty groups -- including the American College of Cardiology, the American Geriatrics Society and the American Society of Anesthesiologists -- announced that they are in or on the cusp of shortages."
LOL! Vent, I am inclined to agree with you...regret I was sucked into it!
At least I won't be wondering what people are thinking when they see the initials on my coat.
Yeah, you are right: "Toughlife - Head Dishwasher" is hard to mistake for anything else.
This is obviously my first post; though I have been surfing this site for a while...Just wanted to add my two cents to this timeless topic:
I hate to say, but there DOES exist a stigma against DO's. Period. For the record, I am a MD, from a supposedly top 15 med school. Also for the record, some of the most compassionate and competent physicians I have worked with are DOshence I DO NOT necessarily agree with said stigma, but it happens. I know of at least one DO pediatric pulmonologist who is the department head of his pediatric department, and is as sharp as they come.
However, as mentioned before, a stigma exists. For instance, in many highly competitive fields (especially at historically prestigious programs), there are NO foreign medical graduates or DOs in the ENTIRE program. In fact, some of my friends who have applied to ortho, rad-onc, ENT, urology, and even gen-surg have told me that some programs pride themselves on having 100% non-foreign MDs. They may interview DOs, but only US-MDs match there, for whatever reason. Sure, perhaps this is due to the fact that a much higher percentage of MDs apply for certain positions, but in the end, the numbers do not lie.
I believe that competent physicians are just that. Thank God that only MDs and DOs are physicians, though there are a plethora of doctors. If my colleagues are competent and compassionate, I will be happy to work with and depend on them, regardless of title. But all things being equal, it makes life easier (opens more doors and garners more immediate recognition) by attending a US MD school. Just like bababuey mentioned, saying that you went to Harvard vs Podunk U opens eyes. In the end, there are dumb people from any school, but it is just that much easier to make a good first impression. Also, at several hospitals I have worked at in med school, some DO residents were asked to explain the difference between their schooling and a traditional MD school by both patients and nurses (yes, unfortunately there are even many RNs that dont even know that DOs of FMGs exist). To the average person, a doctor is a doctor. But in the bigger picture, this stigma exists despite many competent DOs and many idiotic MDs.
The embroidering on your coat should read
"John Idiopathic DO, (I tried)"
When it comes down to it, the biggest difference between D.O.'s and M.D.'s is the amount of time spent in the library during undergrad. At this point, that doesn't mean jack. As an MS-4 who "made it into an allopathic school", that is really not important right now...any D.O. who is interviewing at allopathic residencies is clearly qualified., and knows their stuff medically. Maybe they even picked up a little extra people skills than some gunner types. Sounds to me like guys like "toughlife" feel threatened and want to coast by on the work they did in high school and undergrad, unable to stand the thought of having to compete with the inferior life forms that are D.O.'s when it comes to residency.
I think the title of this thread should be "anesthesia is too cool a specialty for pr!cks".
Actually, it'll read something like "I stay true to my morals and willingly embrace the DO philosophy and would rather be a DO than be a prick"
Seriously though, why would you say that? That's got to be the lowest thing I've read on this board so far. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
A lot of the threads on this board that degrade into MD vs DO and AMG vs FMG, definitely feel like they are fueled by the insecurities of mediocre MD students.
I beg to differ. Who is it that is always questioning whether they are capable or "good enough" to get into an allopathic residency program? Who is always claiming that they are "just as good" as MD's?
I do feel it is a disservice to those students who worked hard enough during college to have to compete with the slackers who didn't pay their dues and are now trying to vie for the good spots in allo residencies. All they want is the reward without paying the price and don't tell me that you have paid the price in your osteo school because I have had my share of encounters with many osteo students and I can see why they went there. Yes there are good DO's but they are the exceptions not the norm. In the end, my opinion does not matter since PDs decide who get in. At least where I go to school, no DO gets into gas, period.
I'm closing this pile of junk. The OP's question was answered early on but this thread has clearly spiraled into something hideous and unrelated to its original intent.
Too funny Vent! I was literally moving my cursor to close this thread when I refreshed the screen to see that you had beaten me to it.
Too bad this had to be closed - as I mentioned above, there are many very legit questions & issues on this topic...but folks just can't keep it above the board for some reason. I guess it is too emotionally charged...