Angry Clerkship Director

[LostInSpace]

Hi all, as you might guess from this post I have a very uncomfortable experience in one of my third year clerkships, the clerkship director himself, who is known for his short temper and harsh comments, basically humiliated, yelled at, attacked, and verbally abused me in front of the other group of students at every chance he could get, and even began making physical threats. During the clerkship I was on the verge of tears, and ready to hang myself, every morning before starting the clerkship with him I would scream at the top of my lungs, I talked with some about trying to get transfered out of the clerkship, but they were unsure how that would look to the school administration, and was told 5 weeks after the clerkship ended that I would repeat it and with the possibility of being placed under the same clerkship director, also recently since I brought this to the attention of the school's committee that this director lied to them about meeting with me privately to discuss repeating the clerkship which he said I agreed to, when I first brought this to the attention of the office of student affairs at my school, they told me basically that he is allowed to do whatever he wants in the name of teaching and verbatam that they torture students, and use intimidation to make people learn. Basically this has taken a huge toll emotionally and physically, I wouldn't want my worse enemy to be a student under his "care", beyond my grievance which isn't being taken seriously, what are my options lawsuit wise? anything I can/should do legally to warn other students about him? I know they want to use severe stress during this clerkship to make us "learn" but what happened to me was just plain mean and sick.

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[CANES2006]

Hi all, as you might guess from this post I have a very uncomfortable experience in one of my third year clerkships, the clerkship director himself, who is known for his short temper and harsh comments, basically humiliated, yelled at, attacked, and verbally abused me in front of the other group of students at every chance he could get, and even began making physical threats. During the clerkship I was on the verge of tears, and ready to hang myself, every morning before starting the clerkship with him I would scream at the top of my lungs, I talked with some about trying to get transfered out of the clerkship, but they were unsure how that would look to the school administration, and was told 5 weeks after the clerkship ended that I would repeat it and with the possibility of being placed under the same clerkship director, also recently since I brought this to the attention of the school's committee that this director lied to them about meeting with me privately to discuss repeating the clerkship which he said I agreed to, when I first brought this to the attention of the office of student affairs at my school, they told me basically that he is allowed to do whatever he wants in the name of teaching and verbatam that they torture students, and use intimidation to make people learn. Basically this has taken a huge toll emotionally and physically, I wouldn't want my worse enemy to be a student under his "care", beyond my grievance which isn't being taken seriously, what are my options lawsuit wise? anything I can/should do legally to warn other students about him? I know they want to use severe stress during this clerkship to make us "learn" but what happened to me was just plain mean and sick.

let me guess..surgery?

 

[LostInSpace]

let me guess..surgery?

(
No. ob/gyn. This ob/gyn doesn't do surgery anymore either, one of the more senior physicians in age, but I don't think has done academic medicine his whole life, gets his kicks from kicking students.

 

[Rocket1]

dont take the abuse. exhaust every avenue to remedy this sitation. contact the dean, other clerksip directorts, other faculty etc, dont be intimidated by these dinguses. fight back.

 

[Dr Alo]

If you tell us a little bit more about what happened, maybe we can better advise you.

 

[LostInSpace]

I don't want to identify myself as the issue may potentially come up again, from what I've learned (about what you are and aren't allowed to do to students) he did to me just about everything that you shouldn't do, i.e. non-constructive comments including refering to me as something less than human at the end of the course, I did have some witnesses and the school initially did not want to talk to one of them. In addition he made a physical threat, . . . he is an extremely angry person in his clinic and you are sort of expected to put up with it, it felt like an extremely hostile place to work, I had to go to a different floor to complete my notes because he would follow me around and scowl at me, it felt like he was metaphorically like a pitbull latched onto my face, other students saw that he was targetting me during these lectures he gives and they didn't understand why, I just told I wish I knew what I did to enrage him so. . .maybe something in a former life? Most days I wished I could have fallen of the face of the earth and died, rather than be a human ragdoll

If you tell us a little bit more about what happened, maybe we can better advise you.

 

[sparticus]

I don't want to identify myself as the issue may potentially come up again, from what I've learned (about what you are and aren't allowed to do to students) he did to me just about everything that you shouldn't do, i.e. non-constructive comments including refering to me as something less than human at the end of the course, I did have some witnesses and the school initially did not want to talk to one of them. In addition he made a physical threat, . . . he is an extremely angry person in his clinic and you are sort of expected to put up with it, it felt like an extremely hostile place to work, I had to go to a different floor to complete my notes because he would follow me around and scowl at me, it felt like he was metaphorically like a pitbull latched onto my face, other students saw that he was targetting me during these lectures he gives and they didn't understand why, I just told I wish I knew what I did to enrage him so. . .maybe something in a former life? Most days I wished I could have fallen of the face of the earth and died, rather than be a human ragdoll

I feel really bad for you. This sounds like a really tough situation. Have you thought about meeting with him privately to confront him, on why he has targeted you? I am a third year as well and a classmate was getting the similar thing from a resident. She confronted her in the ER and asked her resident if she had done anything to upset for because she she was being not being treated the way she was supposed to be and it was a huge reason why she feels she is not getting anything out of this clerkship. I think you should talk to him in his office, schedule a meeting with him. After my friend contacted her resident the whole dynamic changed, she wasn't all peachy, but she did stop picking on her. Her resident actually apologised, started to cry, and from then on stopped picking on her. Just a few thoughts.

 

[Samoa]

Hi all, as you might guess from this post I have a very uncomfortable experience in one of my third year clerkships, the clerkship director himself, who is known for his short temper and harsh comments, basically humiliated, yelled at, attacked, and verbally abused me in front of the other group of students at every chance he could get, and even began making physical threats. During the clerkship I was on the verge of tears, and ready to hang myself, every morning before starting the clerkship with him I would scream at the top of my lungs, I talked with some about trying to get transfered out of the clerkship, but they were unsure how that would look to the school administration, and was told 5 weeks after the clerkship ended that I would repeat it and with the possibility of being placed under the same clerkship director, also recently since I brought this to the attention of the school's committee that this director lied to them about meeting with me privately to discuss repeating the clerkship which he said I agreed to, when I first brought this to the attention of the office of student affairs at my school, they told me basically that he is allowed to do whatever he wants in the name of teaching and verbatam that they torture students, and use intimidation to make people learn. Basically this has taken a huge toll emotionally and physically, I wouldn't want my worse enemy to be a student under his "care", beyond my grievance which isn't being taken seriously, what are my options lawsuit wise? anything I can/should do legally to warn other students about him? I know they want to use severe stress during this clerkship to make us "learn" but what happened to me was just plain mean and sick.

No one should be treated that way, no matter how noble the supposed purpose. And if your school supports that kind of treatment, you don't want to associate with them one second longer than necessary to get your degree. And if you're a bad student who they think shouldn't be a doctor (and by no means am I making that assumption, but I warn you that it's an assumption that many will make based on your story), well, they should find an honest and decent way to ask you to leave.

Go see a lawyer before you proceed any further with the school administration. You may never formally need his/her services, but simply having one to give you advice as you deal with the school, and to make a well-placed phone call here and there, can make all the difference between graduating and matching, and getting kicked out for some trumped up transgression. Seriously, the kind of school that would support this treatment would sooner get rid of you for rocking the boat than admit that one of their faculty is doing something wrong and correct it.

Also make an appointment with a psychiatrist unaffiliated with the school, just for your own mental health as you deal with all of this cr@p. That can make the difference between years of bitterness afterward, and being able to move forward with your life relatively free of baggage from this experience.

And don't internalize any of what's happening to you. This is not what medical education is supposed to be like. And it's not what residency will be like either at the vast majority of places. I know it feels humiliating and personal, and that may well be its intent, but focus on your goal, and don't let anyone's cruelty dissuade you from reaching it. Your job is to learn, and it speaks poorly of someone for them to berate you for not already knowing the things you're there to learn.

 

[Zuwie]

Lostin Space, don't blame this on yourself. Remember, you are having a moral high ground in this situation. Also, you don't want to drop out of med school. You've worked so hard to get through the first two years and step I, this hard work should not be jeopardized because of some a-hole. I think you should recruit people who think well of you for support, especially if they are other clerkship directors. Also, what exactly was the reason for that director to flunk you? Did you perform your work reasonably well and were you unctual, and can you find people to confirm this independently? And did you receive a fail or a "Needs remediation"? If it is the latter, I think you might find better ways to work within the system rather than going against it. Either way, don't worry about it much, if it's not your fault it should resolve, and you just need to focus on doing well in your current clerkship.

 

[HamOnWholeWheat]

Hi all, as you might guess from this post I have a very uncomfortable experience in one of my third year clerkships, the clerkship director himself, who is known for his short temper and harsh comments, basically humiliated, yelled at, attacked, and verbally abused me in front of the other group of students at every chance he could get, and even began making physical threats. During the clerkship I was on the verge of tears, and ready to hang myself, every morning before starting the clerkship with him I would scream at the top of my lungs, I talked with some about trying to get transfered out of the clerkship, but they were unsure how that would look to the school administration, and was told 5 weeks after the clerkship ended that I would repeat it and with the possibility of being placed under the same clerkship director, also recently since I brought this to the attention of the school's committee that this director lied to them about meeting with me privately to discuss repeating the clerkship which he said I agreed to, when I first brought this to the attention of the office of student affairs at my school, they told me basically that he is allowed to do whatever he wants in the name of teaching and verbatam that they torture students, and use intimidation to make people learn. Basically this has taken a huge toll emotionally and physically, I wouldn't want my worse enemy to be a student under his "care", beyond my grievance which isn't being taken seriously, what are my options lawsuit wise? anything I can/should do legally to warn other students about him? I know they want to use severe stress during this clerkship to make us "learn" but what happened to me was just plain mean and sick.

Repeat the clerkship and secretly record everything he says to you. Present it to him after he says something really awful. You'll probably honor the rotation.

HamOn

 

[Samoa]

Zuwie's advice about going within the system rather than against it at this point is solid. But it never hurts to be prepared, because sometimes that doesn't work, even when all the evidence and rational arguments are in your favor.

 

[Adcadet]

You were clearly very upset by this jerk, and rightfully so. You mentioned that during the rotation you wanted to hang yourself. Are you safe now? Have you thought about hurting yourself? Please talk to a counselor or somebody.

 

[LostInSpace]

Thank you for the advice, I really think that I should get a lawyer to help me, I do not have any suicidal ideations at this point, at one point I did when I thought I might have to go back there, then I thought "hey, I'm not going to ruin my life and kill myself over what he did and I didn't do anything to deserve being treated like that" I have passed my other clerkships after this rotation, but it was difficult as this issue has dragged on a long time, other clerkship directors knew about what happened, and one on my peds rotation yelled at me too and kept asking me to talk about what happened on ob/gyn, I was not flunked from the clerkship, as others who evaluated me had good things to say apparently, and each category of what I did was satisfactory or good, but the clerkship director doesn't like you if you don't "grin and bear" as he attacks you, I never missed a day in this clerkship and was the first one there in the am before rounds and my resident said I was presenting excellently, and an stayed up all night on L&D each time I was on-call, maybe once I slept an hour, tried to have a good positive attitude during this guy's part of the clerkship, I actually just completed the repeat of this ob/gyn clerkship, and the director (who is a pretty nice guy and beloved by all at his site and a consumate teacher) there basically said to me, "Why did they make you repeat this? You are not only passing, but doing very well??" and he seemed to get upset, maybe at me? the situation? I just smiled, and told him what I was told which didn't much sense to me and has changed constantly anyway, and felt like I wanted to go back to my apartment to cry and redecorate the walls in brain matter grey. I really don't know what I'm supposed to say during residency interviews I guess they will try to put it into words what happened in my letter and I won't have to think about the whole experience, I did much better than average on step 1 mid-230's, so maybe that will show prospective PD's that I like to learn as they first told me that I didn't adequately speak up to demonstrate my knowledge base, when the questions I answered I answered correctly, (even then he had a problem with me because I didn't stated the correct answer forcefully enough) when (hopefully) I graduate I will request to have an exit interview with the dean, and then talk to as many newspapers and news organizations as I can to shine light on the problems this school has, they can't hurt me anymore when I'm graduated right??? some people in academics have too much power, I guess it will be a learning experience of how Not to teach as I wanted to teach med students and residents even before I started medical school. The above posts are right about them caring less about students at our school, I had considered recording what was happening on the clerkship, but never thought it would get that far, i really wish I did,

You were clearly very upset by this jerk, and rightfully so. You mentioned that during the rotation you wanted to hang yourself. Are you safe now? Have you thought about hurting yourself? Please talk to a counselor or somebody.

 

[SLUser11]

I don't really want to get involved, but your descriptions of suicide are pretty graphic, which either makes you a big-time drama queen, or more likely, makes you a good candidate for a psychiatry appt.

In order to deal with the antagonistic learning environment that is med school, you have to be 100% upstairs. I would seek medical care immediately.

Like, today.

 

[Dr Alo]

Having grown up around lawyers, you don't always have to actually have recordings of what happened. You can just threaten that you do. Your school and that director will be shaking in their boots.

But you still haven't really told us what happened, other than you were made fun of, threatened and tormented. It really helps to know the context of the story or how it happened. I know a lot of us feel like we were tortured/abused during rotations, so in order for use to understand and relate the degree of insult you received, it'd be better to know more before we make all of these suggestions.

And yes, after you graduate, it can still affect you. Espcially if you get a residency that is affiliated with your school. If not, it may still affect you but not as much. There have been colleges to rescind degrees.

 

[Samoa]

I don't really want to get involved, but your descriptions of suicide are pretty graphic, which either makes you a big-time drama queen, or more likely, makes you a good candidate for a psychiatry appt.

In order to deal with the antagonistic learning environment that is med school, you have to be 100% upstairs. I would seek medical care immediately.

Like, today.

Agreed. In light of the second post, the lawyer is probably unnecessary here, and the OP is better off just seeing a psychiatrist.

 

[hyperbaric]

I feel really bad for you. This sounds like a really tough situation. Have you thought about meeting with him privately to confront him, on why he has targeted you? I am a third year as well and a classmate was getting the similar thing from a resident. She confronted her in the ER and asked her resident if she had done anything to upset for because she she was being not being treated the way she was supposed to be and it was a huge reason why she feels she is not getting anything out of this clerkship. I think you should talk to him in his office, schedule a meeting with him. After my friend contacted her resident the whole dynamic changed, she wasn't all peachy, but she did stop picking on her. Her resident actually apologised, started to cry, and from then on stopped picking on her. Just a few thoughts.

Confronting this attending may not be a good idea especially if you already feel he is a physical threat. Pursue it through the school or get a lawyer if that doesn't work. And, like others have suggested, get yourself some medical help - STAT. You can't take proper care of patients until you take care of yourself.

Good luck!

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Agreed. In light of the second post, the lawyer is probably unnecessary here, and the OP is better off just seeing a psychiatrist.

It's certainly possible that both are necessary. Experiencing harassment can cause mental problems. I'd probably recommend seeing a psychiatrist before seeing a lawyer.

 

[JohnnyOU]

Record him doing all these things. Get several episodes of him at his worst.
You'll have more ammo than you'll need at that point. No hospital wants that kind of publicity and the media would eat it up.

 

[BlahtoThis]

There was a student in my school who was failed during part of his medicine clerkship and nobody, the clerkship director, the chair of medicine, or the dean agreed to overturn the grade even though everybody agreed he was great. The guy ended up calling up 3 lawyers, and bringing the case to the chair of medicine, who just said "so sue me." Of course the school didn't take it so lightly and forced the chair and the clerkship director to change the student's grade since it was clear that others thought he did a good job and that it was this one attending who happened to be the one to do evals for EVERYBODY. The guy is now in a dermatology residency.

I really believe you should bring this before the school, if you're willing. This clerkship director will do the SAME thing to future students unless he's forced to stop or thrown out of his position. The other thing is you can force the school through the use of the lawyers to cover you as far as residency interviews. It doesn't look good to have to repeat a clerkship. If the school is forced to acknowledge that they made a mistake and that you are a very good student (based on the second director's feelings about you) then this will help a LOT. Or they can strike it from your record completely. And they CAN do that, if they are forced to.

However, if you want to pursue this, you have to be willing to fully pursue it. If you only go part way, you seem like you're just complaining and nobody will take you seriously. You also have to have tact - ie, involve the minimum number of people, make it seem like you're only involving the administration and that guy and that you don't want it to spread further but that it will if it has to. NO school wants this kind of case on their hands because, if it becomes public knowledge, it reflects really badly on the school for future applicants and the community. They'd much rather settle the case quietly with nobody else in the school knowing what happened.

 

[Bobblehead]

I have passed my other clerkships after this rotation, but it was difficult as this issue has dragged on a long time, other clerkship directors knew about what happened, and one on my peds rotation yelled at me too and kept asking me to talk about what happened on ob/gyn, I was not flunked from the clerkship, as others who evaluated me had good things to say apparently, and each category of what I did was satisfactory or good, but the clerkship director doesn't like you if you don't "grin and bear" as he attacks you

All other things being equal, one clerkship director mistreating you is quite plausible. A second one "yelling" at you makes me ask you whether you are objectively evaluating the situation you're in. Perhaps going through the entire situation in detail in private (i.e. not on a public bulletin board) with a mental health professional will allow an impartial third party help you guide your decision about what course of action to pursue.

To help guide your decision you should begin to keep a written record of all interactions with parties you have concerns about (i.e. clerkship directors, etc.).

 

[LostInSpace]

Thank you for all of the advice, I could see that I need to follow it all the way through it I want following students to not have to suffer, from what I gather he has done something similiar before. The second director, was really just a site director, sorry I mispoke, and he apologized for "having to do that in front of the other student" so he sort of acknowledged that he went to far, and I got an ok evaluation, it was nothing compared to what happened in the clerkship with the angry director, I was just illustrating how people in administration talk and it can hurt a student . . . I apologize for being so graphic, I think one of my posts was a bit too descriptive, but consider this, perhaps although all of us students have been in difficult situations, you might not have been in one as bad as mine, you can tell what he thought of me personally . . . anyway thank you to the supportive posts, I think I do have ob/gyn PTSD (as it is called at my school, you can tell sometimes who has just come from ob/gyn . . .)

 

[LoneSEAL]

Get legal counsel asap. This happened to me to. Clerkship director wanted to fail me because of ONE poor resident evaluation; the rest of my evals from the other residents were fine. Me and this particular reisdent did not get along at all.

Get your deans involved. In my case, it was a case of the residen't word vs. mine. They had NO OBJECTIVE evident for failing me. I showed up every day, did all my work. I told them to go back and talk to witnesses who could corrobroate how this resident mistreated me. so forth

in my case it was a fourth year sub-i rotation. clerkship director wanted to fail me and MISS MY GRADUATION.

 

[silas2642]

Get legal counsel asap. This happened to me to. Clerkship director wanted to fail me because of ONE poor resident evaluation; the rest of my evals from the other residents were fine. Me and this particular reisdent did not get along at all.

Get your deans involved. In my case, it was a case of the residen't word vs. mine. They had NO OBJECTIVE evident for failing me. I showed up every day, did all my work. I told them to go back and talk to witnesses who could corrobroate how this resident mistreated me. so forth

in my case it was a fourth year sub-i rotation. clerkship director wanted to fail me and MISS MY GRADUATION.

Is this kind of shi!t common at medical schools? Or are these clerkship directors the exceptions and not the rule? I have to say that reading this thread has me scared to death.

 

[Beau Geste]

Record him doing all these things. Get several episodes of him at his worst.
You'll have more ammo than you'll need at that point. No hospital wants that kind of publicity and the media would eat it up.

I agree that you should:

1. Bring it AGAIN to your's school attention in hierarchy, e.g. your clinical coordinator, your dean of students, dean of med school, until SOMEONE takes it seriously.

2. Consult a lawyer. Consultations are usually free and they can tell you the legal recourse you can take.

3. Confront the ObGyn giving you a hard time. Tell him you think you've been treated unfairly, consciously or not, and that you will be discussing it will the dean of your school and a lawyer. Tell him you'd like to remedy the situation as best as you can. Then DO that. Follow up with the dean and lawyer and get your ducks in a row. If , God forbid, something really bad happened and it did turn into a lawsuit, you want to make sure your bases are covered.

4. DEFINITELY record ANY and ALL interaction with him. Save it as mp3 files by date of interaction. You don't want to bluff in a situation like this, because your bluff can and probably will be called when asked to present evidence, either to the dean or a lawyer, or even by the OBGyn if you decide to confront him. Again, you want your bases covered.

5. DEFINITELY talk to a counselor or psych at your med school. Even better if it's a psych doctor - they will HAVE to take you seriously and can be your support at the school.

6. Record, in writing, a journal of what's happening. It's hard to prove things happened when you have to fish for dates, what was said, who was there, etc. when you are already so nervewrecked!

Good luck with this, and don't be afraid of the jerk. If he's doing it to you, chances are he's either done it or will do it to someone else.

 

[DrRobert]

Is this kind of shi!t common at medical schools? Or are these clerkship directors the exceptions and not the rule? I have to say that reading this thread has me scared to death.

These situations are uncommon but not unheard of.

 

[fang]

Lonstinspace, if I were you I'd just back up a little bit. You have already had to repeat the clerkship, and did fine in it the 2nd time. You can't make this guy a nice person, and suing him just makes the lawyers happy-- most likely he will not get fired, and he will teach students and torture them again. There is a lot of crap going on out there, and you had to put up with 6 weeks of it... to the extent that you can, adopt the "if it doesn't kill me, it makes me stronger" attitude and move on. In your interviews, say that you had a personality conflict with the attending in ObGyn and that repeating the clerkship was great because you were able to learn in a better environment.

Escalating it from here is likley to suck up a lot of your time and energy, and at best can only help your application slightly. Concentrate on the rest of your rotations, make a voodoo doll of the guy or something and move on.

 

[Ypo.]

No one should be treated that way, no matter how noble the supposed purpose. And if your school supports that kind of treatment, you don't want to associate with them one second longer than necessary to get your degree. And if you're a bad student who they think shouldn't be a doctor (and by no means am I making that assumption, but I warn you that it's an assumption that many will make based on your story), well, they should find an honest and decent way to ask you to leave.

Go see a lawyer before you proceed any further with the school administration. You may never formally need his/her services, but simply having one to give you advice as you deal with the school, and to make a well-placed phone call here and there, can make all the difference between graduating and matching, and getting kicked out for some trumped up transgression. Seriously, the kind of school that would support this treatment would sooner get rid of you for rocking the boat than admit that one of their faculty is doing something wrong and correct it.

Also make an appointment with a psychiatrist unaffiliated with the school, just for your own mental health as you deal with all of this cr@p. That can make the difference between years of bitterness afterward, and being able to move forward with your life relatively free of baggage from this experience.

And don't internalize any of what's happening to you. This is not what medical education is supposed to be like. And it's not what residency will be like either at the vast majority of places. I know it feels humiliating and personal, and that may well be its intent, but focus on your goal, and don't let anyone's cruelty dissuade you from reaching it. Your job is to learn, and it speaks poorly of someone for them to berate you for not already knowing the things you're there to learn.

Wow. This was really excellent advice that I will be sure to remember for my third and fourth year.

 

[Ypo.]

Lonstinspace, if I were you I'd just back up a little bit. You have already had to repeat the clerkship, and did fine in it the 2nd time. You can't make this guy a nice person, and suing him just makes the lawyers happy-- most likely he will not get fired, and he will teach students and torture them again. There is a lot of crap going on out there, and you had to put up with 6 weeks of it... to the extent that you can, adopt the "if it doesn't kill me, it makes me stronger" attitude and move on. In your interviews, say that you had a personality conflict with the attending in ObGyn and that repeating the clerkship was great because you were able to learn in a better environment.

Escalating it from here is likley to suck up a lot of your time and energy, and at best can only help your application slightly. Concentrate on the rest of your rotations, make a voodoo doll of the guy or something and move on.

I agree with this too.

 

[DigDog]

I feel really bad for you. This sounds like a really tough situation. Have you thought about meeting with him privately to confront him, on why he has targeted you? I am a third year as well and a classmate was getting the similar thing from a resident. She confronted her in the ER and asked her resident if she had done anything to upset for because she she was being not being treated the way she was supposed to be and it was a huge reason why she feels she is not getting anything out of this clerkship. I think you should talk to him in his office, schedule a meeting with him. After my friend contacted her resident the whole dynamic changed, she wasn't all peachy, but she did stop picking on her. Her resident actually apologised, started to cry, and from then on stopped picking on her. Just a few thoughts.

Verbal abuse? Threats of physical harm? Doc telling a contradictory story to yours to the administration and them believing the Doc over you? Do not meet with this person alone! Always have someone with you when you have to be around the CD! I would like to believe that having an adult conversation would work with this person, but from what I have read, and the fear that seems to come from your posts…it just does not seem possible. Stay way when you can, stay with a friend when you can’t.

 

[Hoo\/er]

(
No. ob/gyn. This ob/gyn doesn't do surgery anymore either, one of the more senior physicians in age, but I don't think has done academic medicine his whole life, gets his kicks from kicking students.

Kick him right back then. In the nuts.

I'm sick of dinguses like this talking down and otherwise treating students like crap. I hope you sue his ass for every penny that he's ever made or owned. I hope you break his career and he never steps foot back into the hospital again. Make his life hell. Make him wish he never laid eyes on your face.

 

[21JumpStreet]

Verbal abuse? Threats of physical harm? Doc telling a contradictory story to yours to the administration and them believing the Doc over you? Do not meet with this person alone! Always have someone with you when you have to be around the CD! I would like to believe that having an adult conversation would work with this person, but from what I have read, and the fear that seems to come from your posts…it just does not seem possible. Stay way when you can, stay with a friend when you can't.

contact an attorney before consulting with the dean.

 

[allylz]

I hope this might be helpful.

At my school we have two faculty members known as 'ombudspeople' (it's supposed to be 'ombudsman' but one is a woman). They are responsible for being there if a student is having a professionalism, ethics, or personal issue that they feel they need help with. They were introduced to us the first week we went on the wards.

If your school does not have ombudspeople, perhaps you should meet with the dean and suggest starting something like this. If they do, these would likely be good people to talk to about your situation. They are meant to be student advocates. I think every medical school should have them.

 

[beanbean]

A consultation with a lawyer is an excellent idea. Be aware that lawyers do not usually take hostile work cases on contingency and thus retaining a lawyer may be quite expensive. An option may be to look into pro bono or sliding scale payment legal services in your area.

Consulting a therapist in your area is also an excellent idea. Having a professional objective ear to listen to you and assist you in dealing with stress is a wonderful thing. It can take a few trials to hook up with a therapist you click with, so don't give up if the first couple of ones don't work out for you.

Keep a daily journal and write down everything. Meetings with people, things that were said, details of what happened each day, etc. Documentation is key in these type of situations. Finding other students or residents to support you in writing may be difficult, but would be very helpful. I DO NOT recommend secretly recording any conversations until checking with a lawyer. It is illegal in some states to record a conversation unless both parties are aware.

Any correspondence with your school or the clerkship should be done in writing and sent certified mail.

Good luck, and Samoa's advice as usual is excellent.

 

[TaiShan]

Wait a second here. I am not judgemental or anything, but have you done anything to make the director mad? Bad attendings are everywhere but it is hard to believe they are out just to get you with no reasons.

 

[njbmd]

Hi all, as you might guess from this post I have a very uncomfortable experience in one of my third year clerkships, the clerkship director himself, who is known for his short temper and harsh comments, basically humiliated, yelled at, attacked, and verbally abused me in front of the other group of students at every chance he could get, and even began making physical threats. During the clerkship I was on the verge of tears, and ready to hang myself, every morning before starting the clerkship with him I would scream at the top of my lungs, I talked with some about trying to get transfered out of the clerkship, but they were unsure how that would look to the school administration, and was told 5 weeks after the clerkship ended that I would repeat it and with the possibility of being placed under the same clerkship director, also recently since I brought this to the attention of the school's committee that this director lied to them about meeting with me privately to discuss repeating the clerkship which he said I agreed to, when I first brought this to the attention of the office of student affairs at my school, they told me basically that he is allowed to do whatever he wants in the name of teaching and verbatam that they torture students, and use intimidation to make people learn. Basically this has taken a huge toll emotionally and physically, I wouldn't want my worse enemy to be a student under his "care", beyond my grievance which isn't being taken seriously, what are my options lawsuit wise? anything I can/should do legally to warn other students about him? I know they want to use severe stress during this clerkship to make us "learn" but what happened to me was just plain mean and sick.

Hi there,
Your first mistake was not reporting this person immediately at the first infraction. By waiting until this got out of hand, you essentially allowed this person to treat you poorly and they took full advantage of your permission. Since there were other students present, did they receive the same treatment? If not, then you may have been singled out for whatever reason but you allowed the abuse to continue until you failed the clerkship.

Legally, you have to work within the system before resorting to outside assistance. You have filed a grievance but would you have filed this grievance if you had passed the clerkship? Have there been other students who have filed grievances or even reported this professor? If there was a daily shouting match between a professor and a student at my medical school, the other students would not have tolerated this intrusion on their learning. Humilation does not equal learning under any circumstances.

njbmd

 

[doctor07]

All other things being equal, one clerkship director mistreating you is quite plausible. A second one "yelling" at you makes me ask you whether you are objectively evaluating the situation you're in. Perhaps going through the entire situation in detail in private (i.e. not on a public bulletin board) with a mental health professional will allow an impartial third party help you guide your decision about what course of action to pursue.

To help guide your decision you should begin to keep a written record of all interactions with parties you have concerns about (clerkship directors, etc.).

I agree with this comment very much. I had several rotations with a certain student who couldn't handle ANY criticism. If she was corrected, asked to work, etc., she would claim that everyone was "screaming" at her. She must have cried 5 times on this rotation. However, she never thought she was doing anything wrong, even when she decided to take a nap at 2 in the afternoon in the family waiting room, or went to grab a quick bite to eat, only to return 2 hours later after not answering any pages. At the end of the rotation (which was the first of our third year) she complained that she didn't like being in OB triage, because all she did all day was H&P's. Apparently nobody told her what medical students do.

 

[keeping-it-real]

This is directed to the OP. Why would you let someone like this get under your skin?

It seems to me that in this situation, you should've done your work with an even bigger smile and sought him out and sat in front of him to write your notes. It seems like this person is all about mind games, and i think you 'fed the troll' so to speak by allowing him/her to have such a negative impact on your well-being. I understand that this individual ultimately has the final say about your grade, but from your original post, it seemed unlikely that you were ever going to win him/her over; you should have at least tried your hand as a mental marksman, no?

 

[TheCat]

Well defintely tough situatino for the original poster-what I have learned in medical school and what does not jive with my personality is sitting back taking **** from interns, residents and attendings, mostly for me it has been taking **** from dumb**** residents. There are 2 things you can do-andnumber one is the smarter choice if you can suck it up. Obviously if you are physical in danger than you should get your ass out of theire but if not then0-
1. The saed thing is-these people are in charge of your evaluations/grades and someone down the lines, the residency committee isnt going to care why you failed/got a bad eval, they are just going to see that you got a aterrible eval/failing grade and usually wont care why. Youll be stuck with this forever and its a real bitch im sure to have that on your record-so if at all possible just take **** for 6 weeks and scrape out a pass from it-be his little bitch basically.

2. Right -like i would ever do number 1-i could never be someones little bitch and i could never do number 1 even though i knew it was the smarter thing to do-I have had atleast 3 situations where I ended up haveing enough of a resident who sucked and just called them out and bitched them out-EVERY single time i dished **** back to them-they shut their mouths for the rest of the rotation, were wayyy nicer to me and the rotation was much more tolerable-well the upside, I felt like i didnt give up my respect and didnt bow down to being someones little bitch-but the downside, all those poeple gave me ****ty evals which all of i read. I never ended up failing or repeating do to it but def bad evals. But to me the personally dignitity and putting them in their place was worth it.
So its all about what kind of person you are-if possible do number 1

 

[edmadison]

Well, my first piece of advice is not to take legal advise from people who are not lawyers. As a lawyer, I would also tell you that if you are at a private school, you likely have little recourse to sue over a grade. If you are at a public school, you have a little more, but still not very much. If there is something else to the story, such as discrimation based on sex, race, ethnicity, you may have a little more ground. If you wish to contract a lawyer, fine; but you should be prepared to pay for the legal advice. The kind of lawyers that give free consultations usually are doing it for very specific kinds of cases such as personal injury.

My second piece of advice would be to try being nice first. If you barge into offices threatening lawsuits, you forfeit many tools you have. Make an appointment with the Dean, discuss your issues, and ask the dean to talk to other attendings that you worked with and who thought you did a good job (you'll have a list ready). You could ask the Dean to mediate a meeting with you and the course director. You can still threaten to sue later.

Finally, regarding the advice that you tape your conversations. Have you checked to see if its legal in your state? What about a school policy against taping? If you decide to go that route, even if it is permitted, prepare to be labelled as a trouble maker.

One last though for those following this. If you are having this sort of a conflict with a resident/attending/course director, tell you dean early. That way you'll have it on record prior to grades being distributed. This gives you greater credibility.

Ed