Animals in surgery training/research?

[Mr.Tweed]

How often are animals used in surgery training and research? I'm interested in surgery, but opposed to performing work on animals. I ask because I met a med student who's interested in vascular surgery. He was talking about procedures that he often performs on rats. Is it possible to go through residency (at an academic medical center) and never work with animals? Thanks.

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[Habeed]

The rat doesn't have social bonds to the degree that humans do. Neither do the pigs, stray dogs and cats, and other animals budding surgeons practice on. If you practice on a person, and kill or maim them from inexperience, dozens of people will suffer, both the patient and all of their significant others. The litter of rats or the pack of dogs will heal much faster from the loss of one of their members; some of these animals may not even perceive it.

So if you want to be a surgeon, slay every last animal you can to practice. Better that than people.

 

[DoctorDoom]

Originally posted by Mr.Tweed
Is it possible to go through residency (at an academic medical center) and never work with animals?

Yup, ask your medical school to provide an opt out for the animal labs, work at a small community hospital and never do any research.

 

[Tenesma]

i hate to point out the obvious but humans are animals...

 

[Castro Viejo]

I'm at a community hospital and we routinely do laparoscopic teaching sessions on pigs.

I don't know how common it is to practice on animals in surgical residency, however, I think I've been able to learn a lot from working on pigs as an intern and doing lap choles, colon resections, splenectomies, and nephrectomies.

 

[Mr.Tweed]

"i hate to point out the obvious but humans are animals..."

Gee, that's really helpful Tenesma. Thanks.

Seriously though, from what you've said in the above posts, it looks as though it's not possible to become a surgeon without working with animals. However, I'm eager to hear more opinions.

 

[mpp]

We did some pig surgery during our surgery rotation to get used to cutting & sewing, laparscopy, and effects of anesthesia. It was an optional part of the rotation. We also have used a lot of pig feet in suture training labs.

 

[tussy]

The only time i have used animals during my surgery training is during the ATLS course (used a pig to practise chest tubes, pericardiocentesis, cricothyroidotomy, venous cutdown). There was one animal shared between 4 students, the pig was well anesthetized and was euthanised at the end of the session. i have not had to use animals at any other time. I have learned most procedures on patients while being closely supervised.

 

[DoctorDoom]

Yes, certainly the option to work on animals is available in all hospitals and training settings, but if you really feel strongly and are willing to look for other options that's available too. You can certainly be a surgeon without sacrificing animals. You just have to do the legwork.

Didn't mean to convey the idea that in community hospitals the animal practice option doesn't exist.

 

[Castro Viejo]

Well I'm sure that a number of community hospitals never offer anything close to an animal lab for surgical residents because, quite simply, such facilities don't exist on most community hospital campuses. The only reason why we have the teaching sessions because of a somewhat close relationship with a laparoscopic surgical instrument company who funds the pig labs.

 

[DoctorDoom]

Ahh yes... JNJ/Ethicon... I killed a lot of pigs because of them...

 

[Winged Scapula]

Like Tussy, the only animal I've come close to operating on was during the mandatory ATLS. Those in the lab doing research may have different experiences but it would seem to me, depending on the program, entirely possible to get through residency without having *much* animal contact.

 

[Mr.Tweed]

Forgive my ignorance. What's ATLS? Which animal was used and which procedure was performed?

 

[Mr.Tweed]

In any case, I can't participate in any kind of animal experimentation. So, time will tell if this position will interfere with my career aspirations.

 

[DoctorDoom]

ATLS=Advanced Trauma Life Support

Juvenile pigs are used in the practical portion in chest tube placement and pericardiocentesis.

How do you feel about the products of animal experimentation? Every drug is tested on animals. Is that a problem for you?

 

[LaCirujana]

Originally posted by Mr.Tweed
Forgive my ignorance. What's ATLS? Which animal was used and which procedure was performed?

Advanced Trauma Life Support

Most (if not all) surgical residency programs will require their residents to be ATLS certified. Part of the course involves a practical skills session for learning how to place chest tubes, do a saphenous vein cutdown, and other procedures used in the resucitation of trauma patients. Some places use pigs, others dogs.

Edit: DrDoom beat me to it

 

[Mr.Tweed]

Originally posted by DoctorDoom
ATLS=Advanced Trauma Life Support

Juvenile pigs are used in the practical portion in chest tube placement and pericardiocentesis.

How do you feel about the products of animal experimentation? Every drug is tested on animals. Is that a problem for you?

Thanks for the definition. No, I have no problem with using products that are tested on animals. Furthermore, I understand that animal experimentation is a necessary part of medical research. However, I choose not to participate in this form of experimentation. So, it wouldn't bother me if it was going on around me, but I would not be able to take part in it.

 

[Mr.Tweed]

I just read about the National Capital Area Medical Simulation Center at the Uniformed Services University of Health Sciences (USUHS).

"This area is the first site of its kind to be approved to use VR and mannequin simulators, instead of animals and cadavers, for the surgical skills laboratory of the Advanced Trauma Life Support (ATLS) course. In the VR lab, state of the art computer-based equipment enables students to view objects in 2 or 3 dimensions."

I wonder if residents from other institutions can use these facilities. Perhaps similar facilities are being built elsewhere.

You can read more about it here:

http://slice.gsm.com/2001/Fri_program/Moore.html