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Another back door way opened to becoming a US doctor

Discussion in 'Topics in Healthcare' started by MacGyver, Dec 9, 2005.

  1. MacGyver

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    http://tampatrib.com/floridametronews/MGB5LI0GRGE.html

    This is such BS. These universities think they can open up these foreign med schools, attach an "american university" label on it, and their graduates get free entry into american licensure?

    This is a joke. If you operate a foreign med school, then your graduates are FOREIGNERS, NOT AMERICAN MEDICAL STUDENTS AND THEY SHOULD NOT QUALIFY FOR AMERICAN LICENSURE. They should be required to go thru the same FMG steps that everybody else from foreign med schools have to go through.

    first we have Cornell and their pet project in Qatar. Then harvard joins in with another middle eastern cesspool, and now we have USF going to India.

    I'm sick and tired of these back door attempts to get a free shot at american medical licensing. These are not american students, they should be in the same group as the rest of the FMGs.
     
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  3. jonb12997

    jonb12997 I'm a doctor!!
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    Hey MacGyver, tell us how you REALLY feel ;)... after reading that little article, the question I have, is this set up for a US school to provide docs and nurses for india or for indian docs and nurses to be able to work in the US.
     
  4. virilep

    virilep What can Brown do for u?
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    interesting...
     
  5. efex101

    efex101 attending
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    this will continue as long as we allow it..it is all about making $$$
     
  6. Shredder

    Shredder User
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    this is good for free markets. licensure is a form of protectionism. patients can decide which docs they want to see. it may hurt american docs but its better for everyone else. as long as there is a "doc shortage" and "rising costs" i expect this type of thing to become increasingly common
     
  7. dr.z

    Physician 10+ Year Member

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    I think graduates from Cornell in Quatar has to go through FMG process.

    Q – As a graduate of WCMC-Q, how may I obtain a license to practice medicine in the United States?
    A – Students and graduates of the Weill Cornell Medical College in Qatar will be eligible to undergo the United States Medical Licensing Examination ( USMLE ) under the rules established by the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates ( ECFMG ). The USMLE is the sole examination system for United States medical students and graduates as well as for international medical graduates seeking medical licensure in the United States.

    http://www.qatar-med.cornell.edu/admissions/med_faqs.html?name1=Requirements+for+Medical+Program&type1=2Select&name2=FAQ‘s&type2=3Active
     
  8. MacGyver

    MacGyver Membership Revoked
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    1) Doctors incomes as a whole have been flat/declining since the mid 1980s. The rise in healthcare costs from mid 1980s onward therefore has nothign to do with doctor salaries.

    2) US has one of the highest doctor/patient ratios in the world. There is no such thing as a doctor shortage in america
     
  9. geekOCD

    geekOCD passionate people rock
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    That's not true. While medical centers in cities have a HUGE proportion of docs, there are still many areas that remain "underserved" (rural and inner city), hence the justification for so many debt-repayment progs. if you work in those areas.
     
  10. dr.z

    Physician 10+ Year Member

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    If this is the case, why did AAMC decide to increase the enrollment of medical schools. Have you read the article before?
     
  11. NRAI2001

    NRAI2001 3K Member
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    Are students of the Cornell Qatar, harvard (where?), and USF programs considered FMGs or are they still considered US grads since the school has US connections?

    My friend says that Columbia has a similar program in Isreal. His best friend goes there, and he claims that he will graduate as an American grad, not an FMG. Is this true?
     
  12. dr.z

    Physician 10+ Year Member

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    Take a look at my post above. It seems the Cornell Qatar program grads are considered FMG. I copied that info from their web site.
     
  13. Lindyhopper

    Lindyhopper Senior Member
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    Education is one the most important vehicles for the advancement of humanity. America has the best graduate university system in the world. It has a moral duty to forward the scientific education, & thus welfare, of the third world.

    The OP complains that the these expansions are BS because they supposedly are motivated by profits. Even if they are financially motivated, (which is not clear) that is not necassarily bad. A lot of great things are based on the profit motive. What is morally questionable is limiting the flow of medical education, & limiting the world's ability to fight disease, so as to protect one's income.

    RE: The argument that these are not American Universities is seems kind of narrow minded. There seems to fair labeling. The education is about the curriculum, faculty, & organization, not the geography. It is Cornell's, Harvard's, & USF's decision if they want to bestow their names on this education.
     
  14. NRAI2001

    NRAI2001 3K Member
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    Yea the Cornell Quatar program has really high gpa and mcat avgs. The website said that they had an avg gpa of 3.69 and mcat score of 11. Seems like that is better than most US medical schools? Is this true or were there statements misleading? Are they talking about the original Cornell med school?
     
  15. queerangel

    queerangel Junior Member
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    Hurray Lindihopper!
    thats the sort of people we need to bridge the "america" and "rest of the world" gap.Yes..US is at the forefront and has some of the best programs for the upliftment n empowerment of those who weren't fortunate enough to be born in the "land of innovation n technical advancemnet".

    MacGyuver,
    Does geography matter so much..As a doctor from a developing country , I can tell u that when students,volunteers n doctors from US come down for internships,observorships etc we welcome them , host them the best possible way we can.And very honestly its more of a learning experience for them than anything else.Not knowing the languages spoken by the underserevd communities here..they can hardly take part in the actual health care or education process.
    Ofcourse, after their first visit...good number of them carry home valuable perspective with them and very often return with concrete plans to help.
    The point however is..we dont deny them their learning opportunity nor do we treat them like "outsiders".
    Different parts of the world have different resources.Whats wrong with extending them to each other[even if they r financially motivated, the point is..they are motivated! ]
    And how exactly are these "backdoor" attempts? If the students in weill cornell have to slog to get into medschool just like the rest of us..and if they have to clear the same USMLE steps..then what sets them beneath u??Geography?Race? Dont tell me!
    Grow up..there's enough for everyone out there.
    No one was complaining when US outsourced "customer support" to India and saved big bucks in the process, nor when microsoft employs practically all the best engineers of India!!
     
  16. lilzelda

    lilzelda Senior Member
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    I don't see what the big deal is , good for those students who get accepted into those types of programs. I'm happy there will be more doctors out there, they still have to pass the USMLE to become a doctor so whats the big deal.
     
  17. NRAI2001

    NRAI2001 3K Member
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    People are bitter seeing other people happy. A lot of these people going to carribean and foreign schools were the people who had fun in college and had real lives. Now that they are going to still be able to go to med school and still become fully competent doctors many of their nerdy counterparts are bitter. :thumbdown:
     
  18. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Oat-Packing Dadaist
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    Clearly, you have the moral high-ground here... :rolleyes: Way to fight stereotypes with stereotypes, there champ. :thumbup:
     
  19. dr.z

    Physician 10+ Year Member

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    :thumbup:
     
  20. Phil Anthropist

    Phil Anthropist SDN Moderator
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    You can state your arguments much more effectively by avoiding personal attacks. You do yourself a disservice by stooping to this level.

    Language of this nature is not acceptable on SDN. Consider this your warning.
     
  21. MacGyver

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    Read my post again. The aggregate national average for teh US is very high relative to other nations. So what if there are underserved rural areas, that has nothing to do with overall doctor supply. Its a distribution problem, not a supply problem. Ergo, there is no national shortage.

    Pumping out more doctors will NOT solve that problem. Just because you have more docs does not mean they will migrate towards the underserved rural areas. We've seen that time and time again, yet the idiot politicians arent paying attention and foolishly assume that more med schools = more rural doctors when in fact thats patently false.

    Also, those "underserved rural areas" ignore the contributions of NPs and PAs. You do know that NPs and PAs run their own rural ERs and clinics with virtually zero doctor oversight dont you? Yet none of the rural analyses includes that impact. They assume that if a rural county has zero doctors, that nobody in that county is getting healthcare, when in fact they all go see thier local PA or NP.
     
  22. NRAI2001

    NRAI2001 3K Member
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    I ve never seen a PA or NP practicing completely solo. Usually they are in supervision of a doctor. Especially in an ER clinic? Do you mean urgent care clinic?
     
  23. MacGyver

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    I'm talking about rural ERs, urgent care clinics, solo offices, everything.

    The state regulations are incredibly weak. "supervision" by a physician means nothing more than a telephone review of 5% of all patient records EVERY 6 MONTHS with no personal visit by the doctor.

    PAs and NPs effectively run their own clinics. The oversight supervision rules are a joke.
     
  24. Bernito

    Bernito Senior Member
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  25. 1SwtWrld

    1SwtWrld Senior Member
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    First of all USF is a reputable allopathic medical school in Florida, not a diploma mill. The graduates of these progams will not recieve US licensure, it is primarily being founded to provide Inda with qualified health practitioners.

    Also the program is at the request of one of USF's largest donors, Kiran Patel, who is from India and Im assuming will also be funding a majority of this program. This is not another way for them to make money.
     
  26. emedpa

    emedpa GlobalDoc
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    alas it's true...they are letting those pa's run rampant...why just the other day I worked a 16 hr shift with no doc on in the er...wait, that's my regular job.....
    there are pa's running solo er's and icu's. there are pa's doing cardiac caths. I work in a small dept where I am the only provider so I see whatever comes in the door from mi's to trauma, etc
    sample job posting from national recruiter:

    SOUTHWEST GEORGIA RURAL ER!

    Rural Southwest Georgia Hospital has IMMEDIATE opening for Physician Assistant in the emergency room. Join team of two other PAs in sharing coverage duties. Must have at least three years experience in an emergency room and be capable of independent practice. acls/atls/pals required. Solo position requires comfort with a full range of medical and trauma patients.
    Great quality of life in rural, agricultural based community with easy access to larger cities. Excellent hospital system with long history of physician assistant utilization. Salary $75-90K to start with bonus structure. exceptional cafeteria-style benefit package including paid CME, professional memberships, licensure, malpractice insurance, retirement and relocation!

    recent article from duke medical school on their website:

    The Rise of Midlevel Providers
    author : Medical Center News Office , (919) 684-4148
    [email protected]
    date : Summer 2002
    editor's note : by Lloyd Michener, MD; Chairman, Department of Community and Family Medicine

    The last time you went to the "doctor's office," who treated you? Increasingly, people who are asked that question may not picture the traditional family doctor, but a caregiver who doesn't have a medical degree--a nurse practitioner (NP) or physician assistant (PA). Around the country, patients are being anesthetized by nurse anesthetists instead of anesthesiologists, having babies delivered by nurse midwives instead of obstetricians or family physicians, even having cardiac catheterizations performed by physician assistants instead of cardiologists. And while most of these caregivers practice with physician supervision, a growing number of states are granting some the right to practice independently.

    As the lines between PAs, NPs, and MDs blur, some physicians worry that non-physician clinicians are encroaching on their scope of practice--to the possible detriment of patient care. But evidence is growing that it is time to rethink traditional provider roles. Health care may be facing both a shortage of physicians and an explosion of medical knowledge, challenges that we cannot adequately meet using physicians alone. Instead, we will best serve patients by looking for new ways to use the skills of non-traditional clinicians, and working with them in teams to meet the need for high-quality, affordable care.....

    there is more but I think you get the idea
     
  27. NRAI2001

    NRAI2001 3K Member
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    How will this provide India with doctors? I thought this was a carribean style program for US kids?
     
  28. xylem29

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    someone posted that as stated on the websites for the schools (at least for cornell, i'm assuming for the rest as well) - these foreign med grads are considered to be fmg's and not american grads so what's ur problem? Americans who go to the carribean schools should be considered fmgs but they're not (are they? i might be wrong on this). ur over reacting.
     
  29. 1SwtWrld

    1SwtWrld Senior Member
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    Thats where u guys are all wrong.....No where in the article did it say anything about this. The school is a state school, not a private school looking for money.
     
  30. NRAI2001

    NRAI2001 3K Member
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    carribean grads are considered fmgs
     
  31. NRAI2001

    NRAI2001 3K Member
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    So why are they starting this program?

    How does it provide doctors for India?
     
  32. 1SwtWrld

    1SwtWrld Senior Member
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    1. To train medical professionals in India
    2. Ummmmmm......Its a med school and Nursing school in India, thats how it provides doctors for india.

    USF already has programs that train the Citizens of India as healthcare professionals. These programs will not even be open to US grads, unless of course they plan to stay in India. Like the article said the programs are being considered to complement the hospitals that have already been opened with the funds of one of USF's largest donor.
     
  33. shaggy411

    shaggy411 Member
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    take the blinders off (nothing offensive..hope you're not sensitive)....doctor shortage in america isn't about ratios it's about shortage of doctors that actually see the patients in a rural area....ya of course we have the highest ratio, but that doesn't mean we have don't ahve a shortage....there are plenty of physicians in the city but can they access the patient that makes up their ratio if the patient lives in 50 miles away in a rural area... the point is there are physicians for patients...but the physicians are all in teh same area, (suburbia, metro, lesss in rural areas!)
     
  34. CaveatLector

    CaveatLector Senior Member
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    Basically the OP is talking form the standpoint of greed. All worried about more docs driving down salaries, a supply/demand thing. We aren't talking about GM line-workers here buddy. If you're the least bit compassionate you realize the need for more healthcare workers at every level.

    It doesn't matter what the dr to patient ratios are here in the states. Saying they are "good" is a relative thing. They may be "good" compared to the rest of the world but that's it. Fact is, even if you flooded the U.S. market with docs how is that a bad thing? If it drives the salary down then maybe jobs overseas start looking more competitive or AT LEAST not as bad and you end up with a better distribution of healthcare throughout the world. This world has a global economy and that's NOT going to change other than for globalization to increase as means of transportation improve.

    What this world REALLY needs is a global governing body for medicine. If we had uniform standards then we could clear hurdles for working ANYWHERE.
     
  35. NRAI2001

    NRAI2001 3K Member
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    Doesnt India produce enough of its own doctors? Many of them immigrate to the US already.
     
  36. Jaykms

    Jaykms Senior Member
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    Not nearly enough to cover the really big population (> 1 billion people)
     
  37. omniatlas

    omniatlas Senior Member
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    You can add Duke to the list. I believe they are opening a medical school next year in conjunction with the National University of Singapore.

    Cheers.
     
  38. brightblueeyes

    brightblueeyes Senior Member
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    Interestingly, some of you seem to see this as American schools lowering their standards but somehow positioning themselves as the lucky country's new "Harvard". But if the new Indian school were to adopt admissions standards comparable to the above American stats, this would be quite a bit less demanding than what is required to get into AIIMS, in New Delhi. I suspect an American satellite campus would be wealthier and have better facilities. But the wealth of a country's universities isn't always as closely related to academic standards as it seems to be in the US. India has med schools that are wealthier and better equipped than AIIMS but which are also known to have clearly lower standards both for admissions and level of instruction.

    As for any joint project between Duke and the National University of Singapore, you might want to consider the Times 2005 ranking of the top 100 universities for Biomedicine: NUS ranks 15th...Duke, 23rd.
     
  39. angel80

    angel80 Senior Member
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    A few years back, a physician surpluss was predicted. Many residency programs reduced their sizes or shut down. Many medical schools reduced their class sizes. It turned out that whoever made the prediction was wrong, because they failed to take into account something very important-the changing demographics of the physician work force, namely the relative increase in female physicians. Females now make up about 50% of new doctors. Many female physicians would like to work part-time, or be limited to a 40 hour work week. Even males are now less willing to work the 80-90 hours a week that doctors used to work in the past and would rather take a paycut and work only 40-50 hours a week. Pretty much all areas of medicine are becoming more "lifestyle friendly." Although the number of doctors has risen to the level of what they predicted when the surpluss was predicted, because physicians are not willing to work as many hours as they had in the past, there is a shortage. Currently, that shortage is being filled with FMGs. Right now med schools across the country have begun to increase their class sizes, so that in about 5 years or so there won't be such a deficit of AMGs.l
     
  40. LADoc00

    LADoc00 There is no substitute for victory.
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    Of course if you increase supply of docs their costs go down...but realize that doc salaries make a slim margin of total health care costs, just like nursing salaries do.

    How bout this!! How about to truly be free market, we ignore all patent protection and let whoever clone Ipods, download free music, rip car designs and fabricate Rx drugs!! Insane you say? Why would Americans bother to invent stuff in such a climate?! Same thing with docs, when you allow mass influx of IMGs and thus salaries slightly dip, solid American prospects will go way down. You think depending on foriegn sources of oil is bad?? How about Al Qaeda as your kids' Pediatrician??

    I think shot is from the area where USF is gunning to open up an "American" medical school.
    [​IMG]

    I have one word: DEPORTATION. that is my word of the day.
     
  41. LowlyPremed

    LowlyPremed Senior Member
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    I can't believe that future doctors are capable of such hate.
     
  42. NRAI2001

    NRAI2001 3K Member
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    Why do American schools open these foreign charter schools? Is it to make profit like the other off shore schools?
     
  43. Lindyhopper

    Lindyhopper Senior Member
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    That's what universities do. They teach. They spread knowledge.
     
  44. NRAI2001

    NRAI2001 3K Member
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    Cornell for example i think they opened a med school in Dubai and its primarily marketed/directed towards american kids who plan to practice in america. So if they are soley out to spread knowledge why not just open up those extra seats in your own med school?

    = It would be difficult to add about 200 students a year (or whatever the number is) to your class, and it would bring down your avg stats. Those 200 students would generate a lot of cash though that you could spend on varies classes, hospitals, clinics, research.......etc.
     
  45. Koko

    Koko Koko
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    It's Cornell Medical in Qatar, not Dubai. The medical school is for the local Qataris and regional students, primarily, not Americans.
     
  46. Vox Animo

    Vox Animo Runs with Scissors
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    Almost every one I have talked to that has had medical attention complains that every time they go to the hospital, they cannot prounce their doctor's name. Call this rascist all you want, I don't really care. Culturally, to provide the best care, we need to educate Americans, raised with an American culture to treat patients. This is what people want. More effort should be made to build new schools in america. Thousands of qualified americans get turned down from medical schools every year due to the seat shortage.

    Im not opposed to private schools using their funds to educate students over seas if those students want to remain over seas, but I think it is wrong to educate foreigners for the purpose of bringing them to america when so many americans desire and need the education.
     
  47. NRAI2001

    NRAI2001 3K Member
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    Racist

    maybe the patients need to change.
     
  48. LADoc00

    LADoc00 There is no substitute for victory.
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    Earth to Berkeley poster: Maybe doctors should be able to communicate effectively with the people they are supposed to administer to. Also, medicine is a free market, people have the option to take their $$$ to people they relate to and feel comfortable opening up to.

    We cant all be good little Communists like you , singing campfire songs at the IHouse with all the people that want to destroy evil capitalism.

    But I dont blame you, you are in an environment of the pure political correctness and quite naive. Dont worry little guy, the wide wide world outside of Cal isnt as scary as they say.
     
  49. Vox Animo

    Vox Animo Runs with Scissors
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    right on LAdoc, I couldn't agree more. And to NRA I would like to point out that the patients I talked about earlier are from all different kinds of ethnic/american backgrounds. But I guess that is racist for wanting a doctor they are comfortable with. I mean, they are shelling out thousands for care, but a doctor they can understand, no one deserves that. I mean they should worry about some foreign doctors feelings before there own health, cuz that is what america is about, right?

    There is open-minded, and then there is being so open-minded that your brain falls out, i think you fall into the latter.
     
  50. NRAI2001

    NRAI2001 3K Member
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    If its a free market then there should be no problems. Patients would go to docs they feel more comfortable with and the other docs would be out of business.

    I think you have a very distorted view of what berkeley is like, its not the 70s in berkeley anymore.
     
  51. NRAI2001

    NRAI2001 3K Member
    10+ Year Member

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    :laugh: I m glad to know that we ve must have met at some point...bc you making comments like you know me would be completely ******ed if we hadnt ever met before. :laugh:
     

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