Another dental school opening in AZ

[bu_dentist]

>MWU is in the initial planning stages for a College of Dental Medicine
>on our Glendale Campus. We will not officially announce this new
>program until we receive state licensing approval, which we are hoping
>to obtain by Fall 2006. If the process goes as planned, we expect the
>inaugural class to matriculate in Fall 2008.
>
>Thank you for your interest. Please set up on InteractNow account on
>our web site (www.midwestern.edu) to stay connected to Midwestern
>University or continue checking our web site for updates on the
>program's development.

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[Da Bomb]

that sucks!! This will not be greated with open arms by any AZ dentists apart from those involved in the program.

 

[hairybagel]

>MWU is in the initial planning stages for a College of Dental Medicine
>on our Glendale Campus. We will not officially announce this new
>program until we receive state licensing approval, which we are hoping
>to obtain by Fall 2006. If the process goes as planned, we expect the
>inaugural class to matriculate in Fall 2008.
>
>Thank you for your interest. Please set up on InteractNow account on
>our web site (www.midwestern.edu) to stay connected to Midwestern
>University or continue checking our web site for updates on the
>program's development.

You must have received this in an e-mail because I can't google any of the phrases you use in order to find it on the net. The jury is still out if this would be a good thing or not.

 

[DIRTIE]

>MWU is in the initial planning stages for a College of Dental Medicine
>on our Glendale Campus. We will not officially announce this new
>program until we receive state licensing approval, which we are hoping
>to obtain by Fall 2006. If the process goes as planned, we expect the
>inaugural class to matriculate in Fall 2008.
>
>Thank you for your interest. Please set up on InteractNow account on
>our web site (www.midwestern.edu) to stay connected to Midwestern
>University or continue checking our web site for updates on the
>program's development.

Interesting.
I will believe it when I see it.
So is Utah, North Carolina, Hawaii, Virginia, and I even heard New Mexico has been thinking about getting a school. I think enough is enough, and we have enough schools.

 

[food4thots]

i heard they're trying to open up 6 more dental schools in the nation. but it's only speculations.

 

[ItsGavinC]

i heard they're trying to open up 6 more dental schools in the nation. but it's only speculations.

It's all speculation until it actually happens.

 

[Mustt Mustt]

It's all speculations. However, many of these people inovolved in politics know that more dentists will be retiring soon than the number of them coming out. they are trying to saturate/balance the market by opening more schools. It was in our local news few weeks ago that more schools needs to be open or numbers needs to be increased becasue of no dentists in certain counties in Michigan. However, these people do not realize why dentists don't want to practice there.

 

[1992Corolla]

utah has been speculating this for 20 years.

"yeah, but this time they're serious!"

No they're not. When it matriculates its first class I'll believe it.

 

[HermeytheElf]

utah has been speculating this for 20 years.

"yeah, but this time they're serious!"

No they're not. When it matriculates its first class I'll believe it.

And even that is no guarantee...I think we all remember the whole Hawaii fiasco.

 

[mdub]

i heard they're trying to open up 6 more dental schools in the nation. but it's only speculations.

If I had the money, I might look into building a dental school. One could argue that schools aren't charging enough and that dental pay it too high. That leaves room for more competition.

 

[ElDienteLoco]

If I had the money, I might look into building a dental school. One could argue that schools aren't charging enough and that dental pay it too high. That leaves room for more competition.

Schools aren't charging enough?

I don't know where you go to school, but a 1st year student here pays well over $40,000 per year in tuition and fees alone! You're right...we DESERVE to pay more for our education!

 

[AZ2thDOC]

Schools aren't charging enough?

I don't know where you go to school, but a 1st year student here pays well over $40,000 per year in tuition and fees alone! You're right...we DESERVE to pay more for our education!

ElDienteLoco: As an ASDOH student didn't you pass the Dillenberg interview litmus test where you stated that dentistry was everyone's right? Who gives a damn whether or not you get paid for services you perform!?

 

[HermeytheElf]

ElDienteLoco: As an ASDOH student didn't you pass the Dillenberg interview litmus test where you stated that dentistry was everyone's right? Who gives a damn whether or not you get paid for services you perform!? I look forward to seeing how ASDOH students do financially as they "give back" next year as they begin practice in my locale. Please keep in mind you'll be a "rich dentist".

By the way, its my understanding that former associate dean at your school, Richard Simonsen, a.k.a. as Dr. Quisling (any history majors?) to some AZ dentists, will be the new dean of the dental school at Midwestern University in Glendale.

Wait...so the new dean of the Midwestern Dental school works for the Nazis?...man I had no idea they were so desperate for faculty these days...

 

[AZ2thDOC]

.

 

[DcS]

So is Utah, North Carolina, Hawaii, Virginia, and I even heard New Mexico has been thinking about getting a school. I think enough is enough, and we have enough schools.

It will be a long time before it happens in NC. They have a hard enough time staffing UNC let alone a new program. Down the line they want to start one where ECU is but it won't happen for a while if it does.

 

[leia05]

And even that is no guarantee...I think we all remember the whole Hawaii fiasco.

not all of us remember it...what happened?

 

[ItsGavinC]

ElDienteLoco: As an ASDOH student didn't you pass the Dillenberg interview litmus test where you stated that dentistry was everyone's right?

You've got to be kidding me. Once again you seem to deem it necessary to paint with a broad brush. I for one stated that health care was a privilege, not a right.

 

[ItsGavinC]

By the way, its my understanding that former associate dean at your school, Richard Simonsen, a.k.a. as Dr. Quisling (any history majors?) to some AZ dentists, will be the new dean of the dental school at Midwestern University in Glendale.

I've heard that as well.

 

[AZ2thDOC]

You've got to be kidding me. Once again you seem to deem it necessary to paint with a broad brush. I for one stated that health care was a privilege, not a right.

Getting a bit off topic here.

However, I'm NOT kidding, what is spoken and written regarding ASDOH to the dental community, and what it seems some dental students actually believe may be quite different.

Because of how Arizona School of Dentistry and Oral Health was sold to AZ dentists, though, I doubt you'll collectively be greeted with open arms when you graduate. Of course, individually may be a totally different matter.

 

[J2AZ]

AZ will have no shortage of dentists in the future and is NOT in need of a second dental school. Everytime I turn around I hear students talking about the hot market in Arizona and how they are going to moving there. So, not only does ASDOH import 40 or so out of state students a year, many of who will stay, there are many other new grads from all over the country that are moving in. This new school is a bad bad thing for AZ dentists. To top it off, any profits these schools make do not stay in AZ. ASDOH ships its profits to Missouri and Midwesterns profits will go to Chicago. The only new school I would be in support of is a state funded school associated with one of the three universities even if it does cost the state money.

 

[TucsonDDS]

AZ will have no shortage of dentists in the future and is NOT in need of a second dental school. Everytime I turn around I hear students talking about the hot market in Arizona and how they are going to moving there. So, not only does ASDOH import 40 or so out of state students a year, many of who will stay, there are many other new grads from all over the country that are moving in. This new school is a bad bad thing for AZ dentists. To top it off, any profits these schools make do not stay in AZ. ASDOH ships its profits to Missouri and Midwesterns profits will go to Chicago. The only new school I would be in support of is a state funded school associated with one of the three universities even if it does cost the state money.

Arizona has a huge shortage of dentists, just not in Phoenix and Tucson. Try going to Sells, Globe, Tuba City, Winslow. When I applied and interviewed in Arizona they told me that they are trying to get Dentists to go work in these high need areas. How exactly is Arizona recruiting Dentists that plan on working in these areas when they are accepting 75% out of state people. I think the idea is good but in reality they were just blowing a bunch of smoke up our asses.

 

[QCkid]

Arizona has a huge shortage of dentists, just not in Phoenix and Tucson. Try going to Sells, Globe, Tuba City, Winslow. When I applied and interviewed in Arizona they told me that they are trying to get Dentists to go work in these high need areas. How exactly is Arizona recruiting Dentists that plan on working in these areas when they are accepting 75% out of state people. I think the idea is good but in reality they were just blowing a bunch of smoke up our asses.

Even if they opened a hundred dental schools in Az those small towns would still be lacking dentists. Its foolish and somewhat offends my intelligence when I hear the argument about underserved ares. Their is nothing stopping dentists from going to these underserved areas right now. The reason that their underserved is because of simple economics. Dental scools charge mucho amounts of money, we need to be able to pay back are loans and would like to provide a good living for ourselves and our families. Therefore, people will always go to the places where that can be done and in Az thats Tucson and Phoenix. When schools say that their expanding or are opening a new school to serve underserved areas that is pure B.S. The real reason is that they want to Make $$$$. Otherwise, why not charge 4 or 5 grand a year so that we can afford to start a practice in underserved areas after we graduate. After all, if we are supposed to be so selfless and generous and give away our services then they should reciprocate and give away the education.

 

[TucsonDDS]

Even if they opened a hundred dental schools in Az those small towns would still be lacking dentists. Its foolish and somewhat offends my intelligence when I hear the argument about underserved ares. Their is nothing stopping dentists from going to these underserved areas right now. The reason that their underserved is because of simple economics. Dental scools charge mucho amounts of money, we need to be able to pay back are loans and would like to provide a good living for ourselves and our families. Therefore, people will always go to the places where that can be done and in Az thats Tucson and Phoenix. When schools say that their expanding or are opening a new school to serve underserved areas that is pure B.S. The real reason is that they want to Make $$$$. Otherwise, why not charge 4 or 5 grand a year so that we can afford to start a practice in underserved areas after we graduate. After all, if we are supposed to be so selfless and generous and give away our services then they should reciprocate and give away the education.

Uh, that was my point about ASDOH. They blow all this smoke up peoples arses about how they are here for Arizona, for the underserved populations but then 200K in debt later new dentists are not able to go to the poorer parts of the state. Tell me how ASDOH is serving these populations. Are they having school funded outreach programs?? Are they bussing patients down to the school for treatment. Do the faculty even know where 3rd Mesa or Moenkope (however you spell it) is?? Have they ever even been to Chinle or Tsale?? I have no problems with Dentists wanting to settle in Phoenix or Tucson, I will probably end up in Tucson considering how planted my wifes family is there, I just have a problem with ASDOH's philosophy. They say they want to serve Arizona but how likely is that going to happen when they are accepting 75% out of state applicants with no plans of staying in the area?? Oh, and if you don't think you could make a killing in Flagstaff, Prescott or Prescott Valley, Payson or Green Valley you should just stay in Phoenix where there is a Dentist on every other corner.

 

[jpollei]

Uh, that was my point about ASDOH. They blow all this smoke up peoples arses about how they are here for Arizona, for the underserved populations but then 200K in debt later new dentists are not able to go to the poorer parts of the state. Tell me how ASDOH is serving these populations. Are they having school funded outreach programs?? Are they bussing patients down to the school for treatment. Do the faculty even know where 3rd Mesa or Moenkope (however you spell it) is?? Have they ever even been to Chinle or Tsale?? I have no problems with Dentists wanting to settle in Phoenix or Tucson, I will probably end up in Tucson considering how planted my wifes family is there, I just have a problem with ASDOH's philosophy. They say they want to serve Arizona but how likely is that going to happen when they are accepting 75% out of state applicants with no plans of staying in the area?? Oh, and if you don't think you could make a killing in Flagstaff, Prescott or Prescott Valley, Payson or Green Valley you should just stay in Phoenix where there is a Dentist on every other corner.

True. It's not an access to care issue, it's a maldistribution issue. We've been fighting the same thing in NC, as have dozens of other states, for decades. Politicians and philanthropists speak big, but have little to show for their humanistic platforms in general when touching on topics like this. Only way to help some communities is to put a whole stinking school in their town and let the dental students solve the shortage (although any dental students knows that may inflict more harm on the public than good. ) It's an issue that will probably never be resolved, no matter how many ways people slant it.

 

[ItsGavinC]

They say they want to serve Arizona but how likely is that going to happen when they are accepting 75% out of state applicants with no plans of staying in the area??

That's incorrect information and a bit of fabricated logic. How do you know that students have no plans of staying in the area?

 

[ItsGavinC]

Uh, that was my point about ASDOH. They blow all this smoke up peoples arses about how they are here for Arizona, for the underserved populations but then 200K in debt later new dentists are not able to go to the poorer parts of the state. Tell me how ASDOH is serving these populations. Are they having school funded outreach programs?? Are they bussing patients down to the school for treatment. Do the faculty even know where 3rd Mesa or Moenkope (however you spell it) is?? Have they ever even been to Chinle or Tsale?? I have no problems with Dentists wanting to settle in Phoenix or Tucson, I will probably end up in Tucson considering how planted my wifes family is there, I just have a problem with ASDOH's philosophy.

You might want to do a bit more research into how ASDOH is serving the underserved in Arizona. I spend a great deal of time serving the underserved, and for you to bag on me is unfortunate. Part of your post is correct (it's extremely difficult to get dentists to go to rural areas), but it's unfair to post what you believe is fact in lieu of posting actual facts.

You are also rather ignorant in claiming that the faculty don't now where shortage areas are. You do realize that our faculty are dentists from the community, just like you?

Arizona has a huge shortage of dentists, just not in Phoenix and Tucson. Try going to Sells, Globe, Tuba City, Winslow.

We ARE going to those areas! Here are the sites that we spend one month at during our 4th year. These are fact!:

- Carl Hayden VA (Phoenix)
- CASS dental clinic (Phoenix)
- Gila River CHC (Sacaton, AZ)
- Maricopa County (Phoenix)
- Mountain Park CHC (Phoenix)
- Winslow Indian HCC (Winslow, AZ)
- Phoenix Indian Medical Center (Phoenix)
- St. Vincent de Paul (Phoenix)
- Cococino County HDDC
- Crownpoint (New Mexico)
- El Rio CHC (Tuscon, AZ)
- Hopi Helath CC (Polacca, AZ)
- Inscription House Health Center (Shonto, AZ)
- Mariposa CHC (Nogales, AZ)
- Pasqua Yaqui Dental Clinic (Tuscon, AZ)
- Sage Memorial Hospital (Ganado, AZ)


Underserved populations exist throughout the state. You'll notice though, that we are going to some of those areas that you previously mentioned (Tuba City, Winslow).

 

[TucsonDDS]

So how many of your classmates from out of state are planning on practicing in Arizona and how many are planning on moving home to be back close to their families??

That's incorrect information and a bit of fabricated logic. How do you know that students have no plans of staying in the area?

 

[TucsonDDS]

You might want to do a bit more research into how ASDOH is serving the underserved in Arizona. I spend a great deal of time serving the underserved, and for you to bag on me is unfortunate. Part of your post is correct (it's extremely difficult to get dentists to go to rural areas), but it's unfair to post what you believe is fact in lieu of posting actual facts.

You are also rather ignorant in claiming that the faculty don't now where shortage areas are. You do realize that our faculty are dentists from the community, just like you?




We ARE going to those areas! Here are the sites that we spend one month at during our 4th year. These are fact!:

- Carl Hayden VA (Phoenix)
- CASS dental clinic (Phoenix)
- Gila River CHC (Sacaton, AZ)
- Maricopa County (Phoenix)
- Mountain Park CHC (Phoenix)
- Winslow Indian HCC (Winslow, AZ)
- Phoenix Indian Medical Center (Phoenix)
- St. Vincent de Paul (Phoenix)
- Cococino County HDDC
- Crownpoint (New Mexico)
- El Rio CHC (Tuscon, AZ)
- Hopi Helath CC (Polacca, AZ)
- Inscription House Health Center (Shonto, AZ)
- Mariposa CHC (Nogales, AZ)
- Pasqua Yaqui Dental Clinic (Tuscon, AZ)
- Sage Memorial Hospital (Ganado, AZ)


Underserved populations exist throughout the state. You'll notice though, that we are going to some of those areas that you previously mentioned (Tuba City, Winslow).

That is great that ASDOH is planning trips to some of the outskirts of the state and I am really glad that they are. I was going off of the information that I had recieved when I interviewed there almost 15 months ago. At the time they said they had no system to go see patients outside of the school and in a couple of clinics in the Phoenix area. Once again I am very glad that they are serving those populations. Please don't take it as me bagging on you or your school (although I can see how it can come off that way) I was just very let down during my interview process with both the lack of student concern and lack of knowledge that my two interviewers seemed to have. Perhaps I just drew the short straw with who interviewed me. I never said that the faculty area doesn't know where shortage areas are, I would just be very surprised if any of them have ever been or could tell you how to get to many of those places, let alone find them on a map. Sure they want people who can tell you 5 countries that surround Iraq (which I admit I couldn't) but when it comes to their own state I wonder how well they would fair.

 

[jpollei]

That's incorrect information and a bit of fabricated logic. How do you know that students have no plans of staying in the area?

Agreed. Most programs make efforts to track where their students practice post-graduation (in various time increments), and frequently it is found that graduating students from outside the area/state are just as likely to remain in that area to practice as those who were from more "local" areas. It is absurd to state that because someone is not from an area they have no intent to stay in that area after dental school...expecially coming from someone who hasn't been through that experience firsthand.

 

[TucsonDDS]

Agreed. Most programs make efforts to track where their students practice post-graduation (in various time increments), and frequently it is found that graduating students from outside the area/state are just as likely to remain in that area to practice as those who were from more "local" areas. It is absurd to state that because someone is not from an area they have no intent to stay in that area after dental school...expecially coming from someone who hasn't been through that experience firsthand.

Really, where are most of your classmates planning on going?? I know the majority of mine are planning on moving back to where they came from.

 

[DIRTIE]

Agreed. Most programs make efforts to track where their students practice post-graduation (in various time increments), and frequently it is found that graduating students from outside the area/state are just as likely to remain in that area to practice as those who were from more "local" areas. It is absurd to state that because someone is not from an area they have no intent to stay in that area after dental school...expecially coming from someone who hasn't been through that experience firsthand.

He was meaning that if ASDOH took more Arizona predental students into their program, obviously without a doubt there would be more that would stay around. Only taking a handful from Arizona and the rest from other states would mean that a higher % would not stay and practice in Arizona than if they took more from Arizona. Yeah sure some will stay, heck why not, nice area, but lots will not. Does it really matter anyways, they really have no obligation to take more Az students anyways, unless the taxpayers start pumping money into their institution

 

[QCkid]

The point is that all of these schools that are opening or expanding their programs are taking us all for fools. Opening up more schools will not solve the problem, but if they flood the market with dentists to the point where supply of services exceedes demand, then profits and prices will be driven lower until some of the more underserved areas become competative (as far as the profits that can be made). I think that we can all agree that this would be bad for us (and unfair considering time and money spent). If I wanted to make 70 or 80k a year then I would have stayed at IBM. By the way, we could all make that kind of money at almost any corporation with a bachelors degree and a few years of experience. No need to spend 8+ years in school while struggling to get by and building up a massive debt load. I wonder if their is some way that we can collectively put pressure on the ADA to stop accrediting any old school that decides to jump into minting new dentists.

On a side note, I know that their are a lot of dentists that will start to retire but wasn't their a saturation problem for most of these guys back in the late 70's and 80's. If the replacement of retiring dentists is an excuse for minting new dentists and we start replacing them one for one, wont that result in a saturation problem again? Furthermore, the largest group of americans is entering retirement age. Many of these people have already lost a lot of their teeth. They have more of their teeth then previous generations but the fact is that the work that they need or will need will be decreasing compared to when this group was entering their middle ages. Subsequent generations are much smaller. Finally, many of these retirees will be using medicare/medicaid to pay for dental services resulting in a net decrease in dental expenditures.

 

[mdub]

Schools aren't charging enough?

I don't know where you go to school, but a 1st year student here pays well over $40,000 per year in tuition and fees alone! You're right...we DESERVE to pay more for our education!

I mean as a matter of supply and demand the prices are probably below equilibrium.

 

[AZ2thDOC]

Finally, many of these retirees will be using medicare/medicaid to pay for dental services resulting in a net decrease in dental expenditures

.

There is much of your post I agree with--but please note that Medicare does NOT pay for dental services.

Also Medicaid pays for very limited types of dental procedures (at very poor levels of reimbursement) depending on the clinical situation and also Medicaid dental services vary from state to state.

 

[groundhog]

The point is that all of these schools that are opening or expanding their programs are taking us all for fools. Opening up more schools will not solve the problem, but if they flood the market with dentists to the point where supply of services exceedes demand, then profits and prices will be driven lower until some of the more underserved areas become competative (as far as the profits that can be made). I think that we can all agree that this would be bad for us (and unfair considering time and money spent). If I wanted to make 70 or 80k a year then I would have stayed at IBM. By the way, we could all make that kind of money at almost any corporation with a bachelors degree and a few years of experience. No need to spend 8+ years in school while struggling to get by and building up a massive debt load. I wonder if their is some way that we can collectively put pressure on the ADA to stop accrediting any old school that decides to jump into minting new dentists.

On a side note, I know that their are a lot of dentists that will start to retire but wasn't their a saturation problem for most of these guys back in the late 70's and 80's. If the replacement of retiring dentists is an excuse for minting new dentists and we start replacing them one for one, wont that result in a saturation problem again? Furthermore, the largest group of americans is entering retirement age. Many of these people have already lost a lot of their teeth. They have more of their teeth then previous generations but the fact is that the work that they need or will need will be decreasing compared to when this group was entering their middle ages. Subsequent generations are much smaller. Finally, many of these retirees will be using medicare/medicaid to pay for dental services resulting in a net decrease in dental expenditures.

Actually, the vast majority of post WWII baby boomers will want to keep their choppers and grinders in good shape. The cost of dental insurance is very inexpensive when compared to the medical insurance . The politicians who authorize government administered health care programs may decide to throw a bone to senior citizens in the form of "dental benefits" as a way to sweeten the bitter taste of the significant cuts in traditional medicare that we all know are on the horizon.

In fact, such a change might prove to be a win/win situatioin in that dentists who take the time to keep themselves up dated on oral medicine issues could help screen senior citizens for early signs of medical problems that should be addressed by a physician.

 

[AZ2thDOC]

The politicians who authorize government administered health care programs may decide to throw a bone to senior citizens in the form of "dental benefits" as a way to sweeten the bitter taste of the significant cuts in traditional medicare that we all know are on the horizon.

"May" is the key word in your statement.

Predicting the future is extremely difficult at best.

 

[ItsGavinC]

So how many of your classmates from out of state are planning on practicing in Arizona and how many are planning on moving home to be back close to their families??

I could speculate, but I don't have any real answers for that question. And, to be honest, I think there are still a good chunk of students who haven't decided what to do once they are finished.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Perhaps I just drew the short straw with who interviewed me. Sure they want people who can tell you 5 countries that surround Iraq (which I admit I couldn't) but when it comes to their own state I wonder how well they would fair.

Could have been. And I agree that the geography/history/current event questions are ridiculous.

 

[ItsGavinC]

The point is that all of these schools that are opening or expanding their programs are taking us all for fools. Opening up more schools will not solve the problem, but if they flood the market with dentists to the point where supply of services exceedes demand, then profits and prices will be driven lower until some of the more underserved areas become competative (as far as the profits that can be made). I think that we can all agree that this would be bad for us (and unfair considering time and money spent). If I wanted to make 70 or 80k a year then I would have stayed at IBM.

That's absurd logic. Underserved areas usually have LARGER profits than areas that aren't in need. You can make MORE money by going to a po-dunk town and charging LOWER fees than by staying in an area where there is no need.

Dentists aren't going to these areas because there isn't money to be made--for the most part (in my opinion) they aren't going there because most of the needy areas are rural and in the middle of nowhere. If that doesn't bother you then the quickest way to making a dental buck is to open shop in a rural area, preferably smack dab in the middle of 3 or 4 little towns. Work a couple days a week, and then have regular night or weekend hours (whatever suits the workforce of the communities you are near). You'll make a literal killing and be booked out for months with ease.

Largely it's the Wal-mart vs. Nordstrom concept.

 

[ItsGavinC]

On a side note, I know that their are a lot of dentists that will start to retire but wasn't their a saturation problem for most of these guys back in the late 70's and 80's. If the replacement of retiring dentists is an excuse for minting new dentists and we start replacing them one for one, wont that result in a saturation problem again? Furthermore, the largest group of americans is entering retirement age. Many of these people have already lost a lot of their teeth. They have more of their teeth then previous generations but the fact is that the work that they need or will need will be decreasing compared to when this group was entering their middle ages. Subsequent generations are much smaller. Finally, many of these retirees will be using medicare/medicaid to pay for dental services resulting in a net decrease in dental expenditures.

You are quite unclear when you use the term "saturation". If you are referring to saturation of the profession, then it won't ever really happen. What percentage of the population actually visits the dentist? In my estimation its 30-40%, and that's being kind.

If you are referring to saturation of large markets, then that will always be a factor, even without new schools opening. For the most part people flock to urban and suburban areas, no matter what their profession is.

 

[AZ2thDOC]

Dentists aren't going to these areas because there isn't money to be made--for the most part (in my opinion) they aren't going there because most of the needy areas are rural and in the middle of nowhere. If that doesn't bother you then the quickest way to making a dental buck is to open shop in a rural area, preferably smack dab in the middle of 3 or 4 little towns. Work a couple days a week, and then have regular night or weekend hours (whatever suits the workforce of the communities you are near). You'll make a literal killing and be booked out for months with ease.

And where in Arizona might such an area exist? Booked out for months with ease? Make a "killing"? You make it seem so simple.

p.s. Have you been listening to Dr. Howard Farran?

 

[12YearOldKid]

The politicians who authorize government administered health care programs may decide to throw a bone to senior citizens in the form of "dental benefits" as a way to sweeten the bitter taste of the significant cuts in traditional medicare that we all know are on the horizon.

Everyone pray to God that this situation never plays out. As soon as the government starts paying for seniors' dental services we will never see another dime out of the boomers that isn't "covered by Medicare." All these full-mouth rehabs and big implant cases we are starting to see on 55 and 60 year olds will disappear because they will be waiting for Medicare to kick in and when it does Medicare will only pay for extractions and maybe a set of dentures.

The fees will be so ridiculously low that there will be very few dentists who will be able to profitably accept Medicare. There will be a huge public outcry about how dentists are gouging senior citizens and not accepting their hard-earned retirement benefits.

I'm telling you, this would be one of the worst possible things that could happen for dentistry.

 

[12YearOldKid]

I have to agree with QCkid and AZ2thdoc for the most part. I just don't believe that there is going to be the huge dentist shortfall that so many are predicting. Every study I have seen fails to take into account some very important things.

1. Dentists are more efficient than ever. We have technology and methods that allow us to produce a heck of a lot more dentistry per day than has previously been possible. (provided the patients are there)

2. The boomers aren't going to be retiring en masse as soon as they hit 65. Dentists have traditionally retired later than the general population and I believe that trend is only going to continue. When the boomers' parents hit 65 they had a few good years of relaxing left to look forward to; the boomers are looking at 30+ years of doing nothing. There are only so many cruises you can take before it gets boring. Many, many boomers are going to continue to work at least part time well into their late 70's. I was at a seminar this last week on financial planning where it was stated that around half of all retirees are back in the workforce within 18 months of retiring.

3. The market is oversupplied with dentists already. Look through the journals and you will see ad after ad on how to get new patients. Very few offices are as busy as they want to be. How many dentists do you know who are turning away new patients? How many people can't get to a dentist? There is enough slack in the market to accomodate both a decrease in supply and an increase in demand.

 

[12YearOldKid]

If you are referring to saturation of the profession, then it won't ever really happen. What percentage of the population actually visits the dentist? In my estimation its 30-40%, and that's being kind.

I think this is one of the few situations where I disagree with you, Gavin.

What percentage of the population buys a new Mercedes? Let's be incredibly generous and say it's 2%. Does that mean there is room for thousands of new Mercedes dealerships? Nope.

There is a limited demand for any product or service and once that demand is filled the market becomes saturated.

About 1/3 of Americans visit the dentist. We're never going to see that percentage increase significantly. A good portion of the other 2/3 wouldn't come see us if it was free. We are currently seeing that 1/3 and many dentists are wishing there was more work to do. I think that means the market is saturated.

 

[groundhog]

I have to agree with QCkid and AZ2thdoc for the most part. I just don't believe that there is going to be the huge dentist shortfall that so many are predicting. Every study I have seen fails to take into account some very important things.

1. Dentists are more efficient than ever. We have technology and methods that allow us to produce a heck of a lot more dentistry per day than has previously been possible. (provided the patients are there)

2. The boomers aren't going to be retiring en masse as soon as they hit 65. Dentists have traditionally retired later than the general population and I believe that trend is only going to continue. When the boomers' parents hit 65 they had a few good years of relaxing left to look forward to; the boomers are looking at 30+ years of doing nothing. There are only so many cruises you can take before it gets boring. Many, many boomers are going to continue to work at least part time well into their late 70's. I was at a seminar this last week on financial planning where it was stated that around half of all retirees are back in the workforce within 18 months of retiring.

3. The market is oversupplied with dentists already. Look through the journals and you will see ad after ad on how to get new patients. Very few offices are as busy as they want to be. How many dentists do you know who are turning away new patients? How many people can't get to a dentist? There is enough slack in the market to accomodate both a decrease in supply and an increase in demand.

Regarding shortage of supply, you are correct in the long run. Markets eventually adjust and/or government intervenes with a "political fix." Let's say the supply suddenly got so tight that a person could come right out of dental school and knock down $500,000/year net while having to work only four days per week. Well new dental schools could begin to pop up, established dental schools could increase enrollment slots, and politicians could relax standards regarding licensing of foreign trained dentists and scope of practice for RDH's etc. The ADA is strong but it is not OPEC and most politicians are lawyers not health care providers.

 

[12YearOldKid]

Regarding shortage of supply, you are correct in the long run. Markets eventually adjust and/or government intervenes with a "political fix." Let's say the supply suddenly got so tight that a person could come right out of dental school and knock down $500,000/year net while having to work only four days per week. Well new dental schools could begin to pop up, established dental schools could increase enrollment slots, and politicians could relax standards regarding licensing of foreign trained dentists and scope of practice for RDH's etc. The ADA is strong but it is not OPEC and most politicians are lawyers not health care providers.

I'm not talking about trying to artificially decrease supply here. All I'm saying that there is no need to overreact to a perceived shortage that is some 25 years off when the models predicting that shortage are so seriously flawed.
There are a lot of scaremongers out there with agendas that do not have the best interest of dentistry in mind.

 

[Dr.Brutus]

He was meaning that if ASDOH took more Arizona predental students into their program, obviously without a doubt there would be more that would stay around. Only taking a handful from Arizona and the rest from other states would mean that a higher % would not stay and practice in Arizona than if they took more from Arizona. Yeah sure some will stay, heck why not, nice area, but lots will not. Does it really matter anyways, they really have no obligation to take more Az students anyways, unless the taxpayers start pumping money into their institution

Exactly. As a practical matter, ASDOH, as a private school, has no more obligation to provide dentists for AZ than they do for Wyoming, New York, Oklahoma, or Ohio. In fact, anything that is done for the state of AZ should be looked at as a service.

 

[ItsGavinC]

And where in Arizona might such an area exist?

Well, Globe (since you mentioned it previously), for one. They have one dentist there, and he works two days a week. He's booked out like crazy.

But it isn't just an Arizona thing. Sure, people want to live near big cities, but that doesn't mean that there isn't plenty of money to be had in smaller cities.

I know that you practice up north and have difficulty staying afloat (at least that's what you told me two years ago when we met). But just because you've had those problems doesn't mean everybody does or will.

And I by no means am trying to infer that dentistry is easy. It takes effort to do good work and build a strong patient base. I don't know much, but I know that much. You're absolutely correct on that account.

 

[ItsGavinC]

About 1/3 of Americans visit the dentist. We're never going to see that percentage increase significantly. A good portion of the other 2/3 wouldn't come see us if it was free. We are currently seeing that 1/3 and many dentists are wishing there was more work to do. I think that means the market is saturated.

No, it means CERTAIN markets are saturated. Not every dentist who wants to plop down in San Diego, or LA, or Salt Lake City, or Manhattan is going to be able to make as much as they want.

Just because we can't all live exactly where we want and make the income we want, doesn't mean the market is saturated.

 

[AZ2thDOC]

Well, Globe (since you mentioned it previously), for one. They have one dentist there, and he works two days a week. He's booked out like crazy.

But it isn't just an Arizona thing. Sure, people want to live near big cities, but that doesn't mean that there isn't plenty of money to be had in smaller cities.

I know that you practice up north and have difficulty staying afloat (at least that's what you told me two years ago when we met). But just because you've had those problems doesn't mean everybody does or will.

And I by no means am trying to infer that dentistry is easy. It takes effort to do good work and build a strong patient base. I don't know much, but I know that much. You're absolutely correct on that account.

Gavin:

I know with great certainty that I haven't ever mentioned Globe, that's part of the reason I asked the question because I am sincerely curious to know where in Arizona such places as you mention exist. I do agree with you that there are areas that are more desirable financially than others.

Secondly, I certainly don't ever believe we have met in person as you infer in your post. I believe I can remember virtually every instance in which I have talked with an ASDOH student. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. Please send me a personal message if I am in error on this one.

Finally, its nice to see you exhibit a dose of humility. Dentistry is a great profession, but certainly it isn't without plenty of challenges.