Another dental school opening in AZ

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First, I want to clarify that Dr. Simonsen didn't quit our school to become the dean of Midwestern. He was offered the job after our school decided not to renew his contract. Whatever you may think of him, he was not a traitor.

So by fall of 2008 there are going to be 2 schools in AZ, but they are going to be about 40 miles apart. They way I look at it, if Boston (pop 700k) can have three schools, the Phoenix Metro (pop 3.8 million) probably could withstand having 2 schools.

However, I still think that increasing the number of dentists is not the answer to the underserved problem. I wish our gov't would have learned that when they increased dental schools' enrollment in the 70's. All that really happened was there was a minor surplus of dentists in the metro areas and the rural areas were still underserved.

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ItsGavinC said:
You are quite unclear when you use the term "saturation". If you are referring to saturation of the profession, then it won't ever really happen. What percentage of the population actually visits the dentist? In my estimation its 30-40%, and that's being kind.

If you are referring to saturation of large markets, then that will always be a factor, even without new schools opening. For the most part people flock to urban and suburban areas, no matter what their profession is.

Well first off, I should have said underserved populations. I don't know of many underserved areas in Arizona. Most of the small towns that I know of have enough dentists. Their are some areas, (mainly the reservations) that may have some problems with access.

The arguments made by schools about underserved populations or areas are rediculous because its usually not access to care thats a problem, its usually due to economic or cultural reasons. To help make my point; up in the mountains their are several small towns, all of these towns have a dentist or dentists available to them. Those that live in the country are accustomed to traveling for any type of service be it grocery shopping, clothes shopping of healthcare. One such town (snowflake) has a population of 4 to 5 thousand people but they have 7 dentists. People who don't go to the dentist, don't go because of money or because its not important to them. Once again, let me repeat, their is no shortage of dentists. It is either due to money or lack of attention to matters of health that restricts care in these areas or any other areas for that matter. Opening up more schools and expanding progams will not alleviate these problems because they are not caused by our proffesion. The only way that the situation will change is if we charge significantly lower prices, give away our services, or so many dentists enter the profession that supply of services exceeds demand.

In regards to your argument about making lots of cash or a quick buck by setting up in a small town. In such situations you are coming into an area that is already served by dentists who have developed relationships with their patients. You must have never lived in a small town becuase its not as easy as you make it seem. As far as money is concerned, yes you can make decent money after awhile but the profit potential in a large city is still higher. The average profit in small towns may be higher but overall profit potential is lower. In otherwords, their is a larger disparity in cities then in small towns. On average practices make a little less but the top % of practices make much more then could be accomplished in a small community.

Saturation is simply a supply vs. demand problem. When you have access supply capacity then the market is saturated. What you're trying to say is that because only 40% of the population sees the dentist then saturation can never exist but this really has nothing to do with reality does it? You can effect saturation rates by wither decreasing supply of increasing demand. But increasing supply irrespective of demand does nothing but increase competition and drive profits lower.
 
i say move to the area with the most money making potential. All the extra loot will help you donate your time to the underserved areas every other weekend.
 
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ItsGavinC said:
That's absurd logic. Underserved areas usually have LARGER profits than areas that aren't in need. You can make MORE money by going to a po-dunk town and charging LOWER fees than by staying in an area where there is no need.

Dentists aren't going to these areas because there isn't money to be made--for the most part (in my opinion) they aren't going there because most of the needy areas are rural and in the middle of nowhere. If that doesn't bother you then the quickest way to making a dental buck is to open shop in a rural area, preferably smack dab in the middle of 3 or 4 little towns. Work a couple days a week, and then have regular night or weekend hours (whatever suits the workforce of the communities you are near). You'll make a literal killing and be booked out for months with ease.

Largely it's the Wal-mart vs. Nordstrom concept.

My observations back this up. Rural OR dentists have an easier time making more money than urban OR dentists.

Can I say urban OR dentists w/o people laughing?
 
ItsGavinC said:
Well, Globe (since you mentioned it previously), for one. They have one dentist there, and he works two days a week. He's booked out like crazy.

But it isn't just an Arizona thing. Sure, people want to live near big cities, but that doesn't mean that there isn't plenty of money to be had in smaller cities.

I know that you practice up north and have difficulty staying afloat (at least that's what you told me two years ago when we met). But just because you've had those problems doesn't mean everybody does or will.

And I by no means am trying to infer that dentistry is easy. It takes effort to do good work and build a strong patient base. I don't know much, but I know that much. You're absolutely correct on that account.


Their are more dentists then that in Globe. I can see at least 10 practices on yahoo yellow pages. Some of those have multiple doctors.
 
AZ2thDOC said:
Gavin:

I know with great certainty that I haven't ever mentioned Globe, that's part of the reason I asked the question because I am sincerely curious to know where in Arizona such places as you mention exist. I do agree with you that there are areas that are more desirable financially than others.

Secondly, I certainly don't ever believe we have met in person as you infer in your post. I believe I can remember virtually every instance in which I have talked with an ASDOH student. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. Please send me a personal message if I am in error on this one.

Finally, its nice to see you exhibit a dose of humility. Dentistry is a great profession, but certainly it isn't without plenty of challenges.

Gavin: I'm still waiting for a response.
 
Apparently, North Carolina is closer to having a 2nd dental school than we thought...received this email from the dean today:

Colleagues:

I want to update you on recent discussions and a recommendation to establish a second dental school at ECU. This proposal has been sent to the UNC System Board of Governors for their review and consideration next week. Most of the month of March has been spent in negotiations over how best to deliver dental education to address workforce needs.



UNC and ECU have reached an agreement moderated by President Erskine Bowles and General Administration staff on behalf of the UNC System that a second dental program will be established at the ECU campus in Greenville. The proposal will be presented to the Board of Governors in mid-April.



The proposed plan calls for UNC to expand class size capacity to 100 and to be the lead research institution with some expanded involvement in outreach clinics for the DDS program. ECU will establish a DDS program with a class size of 50 and focus on the enhancement of dental workforce in underserved areas in North Carolina. The ECU DDS program will require Board of Governors approval and ECU is working on a program proposal. The two programs have outlined some potential collaborations in the areas of faculty, curriculum, outreach clinics and community based research which are subject to the availability of additional resources.



Capital budget requests have been submitted to construct: 1) a new UNC Dental Sciences Building and two community based clinics, and; 2) a dental educational facility at ECU along with 10 community clinics



We have outlined several points for program collaboration which I believe are workable for us. I will be meeting with UNC faculty soon to outline further details of the recommendation following final approval of the Academic Planning Committee of the Board of Governors next week.



Below are some recent news articles about the UNC & ECU dental programs.



-John



News Links:

Daily Tar Heel

http://www.dailytarheel.com/media/s...00604050657&sourcedomain=www.dailytarheel.com



Greenville Reflector

http://www.reflector.com/local/content/news/stories/2006/04/02/20060402GDRdental.html
 
DcS said:
Apparently, North Carolina is closer to having a 2nd dental school than we thought...received this email from the dean today:

Colleagues:

I want to update you on recent discussions and a recommendation to establish a second dental school at ECU. This proposal has been sent to the UNC System Board of Governors for their review and consideration next week. Most of the month of March has been spent in negotiations over how best to deliver dental education to address workforce needs.



UNC and ECU have reached an agreement moderated by President Erskine Bowles and General Administration staff on behalf of the UNC System that a second dental program will be established at the ECU campus in Greenville. The proposal will be presented to the Board of Governors in mid-April.



The proposed plan calls for UNC to expand class size capacity to 100 and to be the lead research institution with some expanded involvement in outreach clinics for the DDS program. ECU will establish a DDS program with a class size of 50 and focus on the enhancement of dental workforce in underserved areas in North Carolina. The ECU DDS program will require Board of Governors approval and ECU is working on a program proposal. The two programs have outlined some potential collaborations in the areas of faculty, curriculum, outreach clinics and community based research which are subject to the availability of additional resources.



Capital budget requests have been submitted to construct: 1) a new UNC Dental Sciences Building and two community based clinics, and; 2) a dental educational facility at ECU along with 10 community clinics



We have outlined several points for program collaboration which I believe are workable for us. I will be meeting with UNC faculty soon to outline further details of the recommendation following final approval of the Academic Planning Committee of the Board of Governors next week.



Below are some recent news articles about the UNC & ECU dental programs.



-John



News Links:

Daily Tar Heel

http://www.dailytarheel.com/media/s...00604050657&sourcedomain=www.dailytarheel.com



Greenville Reflector

http://www.reflector.com/local/content/news/stories/2006/04/02/20060402GDRdental.html
I know that Dr. Dillenberg was at ECU a couple of weeks ago to help them. He was very optimistic about that new program. (of course, I've never been around the man when he wasn't optimistic)
 
NC is about to literally double the number of dental students we get. My class has a little 70something people, they want to raise the UNC class to 100 and add a new school at ECU (50).

All I can see is, man there's going to be a lot more dentists for the same number of patients. As of now, I don't hear any dentists complaining that they have too MANY patients.

For some reason the prognosis of our profession doesn't look as bright. I forsee a ton of new dentists coming out and all competing with each other for patients, lowering their fees etc... Am I being pessimistic?

The problem isn't with the number of dentists. They need to offer more incentives for dentist to work in rural communities in NC.

What's the ADA and ASDA's stance on all this.
 
I think that rural incentives are a good idea, but who's gonna pay for them?

a. The communities themselves?
b. From the taxes of the rest in popular locales?
c. Any other ideas?

I know that my wife will probably want, er...need to live somewhere within 20 minutes of good shopping (at least a mall with a GAP). I'm sure that there are a lot of other people in similar circumstances
 
I know that my wife will probably want, er...need to live somewhere within 20 minutes of good shopping (at least a mall with a GAP). I'm sure that there are a lot of other people in similar circumstances

Perhaps Dr. Dillenberg and the ASDOH admissions committee should also interview spouses or significant others about their committment to their cause. Heck, maybe my own school should have interviewed my spouse before I got involved in this crazy business. :rolleyes:

I continually hear from your school how committed you all are to saving the US and particularly the Southwest's underserved from dreaded dental ills -- I'm waiting to see if it truly happens.

Keeping on the topic of another dental school in Arizona, it will be interesting to see what Midwestern University in Glendale says their mission or purpose is to be.
 
Keeping on the topic of another dental school in Arizona, it will be interesting to see what Midwestern University in Glendale says their mission or purpose is to be.[/QUOTE]


To make money.... Just for fun I'd like to see the cost averages for the most expensive degrees in the U.S.. I wonder if dentistry would be at or near the top of the list.
 
From the rumors I hear, Midwestern is starting a "traditional" dental school. ~120 students with the first two years taking curriculum directly with the DO students. I wouldn't expect much of a mission or purpose (maybe just a little retaliation because AT Still - ASDOH's parent University - is starting a DO school in Mesa). I think inter-university feuds like that are just silly.

Also, 2thDoc, I wouldn't be altruistic enough to tell you that everyone from ASDOH is going to end up in a hogan in Chinle, but there are some amazing people here who were selected because they really do want to impact areas of need. Maybe you should meet some more of us before you assume that we're a bunch of patient pool mongers who are going to be directly competing with your bread and butter.

Really, c'mon and give us a chance. I'll be the first to take you to lunch to build a positive relationship. The offer is on the table.
 
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Also, 2thDoc, I wouldn't be altruistic enough to tell you that everyone from ASDOH is going to end up in a hogan in Chinle, but there are some amazing people here who were selected because they really do want to impact areas of need. Maybe you should meet some more of us before you assume that we're a bunch of patient pool mongers who are going to be directly competing with your bread and butter.

Really, c'mon and give us a chance. I'll be the first to take you to lunch to build a positive relationship. The offer is on the table.

El Diente Loco:

Thank you for the invite. I'll take it into consideration. Please be assured that my skepticism of ASDOH isn't directed towards you personally.

However, because I have had my name pulled through the mud by both your faculty and fellow students alike, it would take an epiphany to change my attitude.

Good luck to you in your future professional endeavors. I sincerely hope your professional experiences go a bit more smoothly than mine. Believe it or not, I speak up because I hope you'll be part of profession where you can practice with dignity, provide QUALITY care, pay your loans back, and have a reasonably decent lifestyle.

p.s. Please tell Gavin I'm waiting for a response.
 
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az2thdoc- I talked with a dentsit from Show Low, he's been in practice for 25 years and he told me (after much prodding) his office brings in 60 a month. He is booked 6-8 mo in advance. Sure that is changing a little but many places in rural az are similar.
 
AZ2thDOC said:
p.s. Please tell Gavin I'm waiting for a response.

Dr. S., I recall meeting you a little over two years ago at the Western Regional Convention meeting. It was an AzDA delegates meeting (I believe) and Dr. Gosar had just been put into place a President.

Am I mistaken?
 
ItsGavinC said:
Dr. S., I recall meeting you a little over two years ago at the Western Regional Convention meeting. It was an AzDA delegates meeting (I believe) and Dr. Gosar had just been put into place a President.

Am I mistaken?

Yes, I do believe (although we may have exchanged a simple greeting) you are mistaken. However, I did attend that meeting and did speak with two of your female classmates.

I wish you well, but there are certain fundamental issues I believe we'll just have to agree to disagree. As far as the future of dentistry in Arizona, the future will hold the answer as to whom, if any of us, is correct.
 
doc*holliday said:
az2thdoc- I talked with a dentsit from Show Low, he's been in practice for 25 years and he told me (after much prodding) his office brings in 60 a month. He is booked 6-8 mo in advance. Sure that is changing a little but many places in rural az are similar.

Doc*holliday:

I don't really believe you. Are you sure he wasn't referring to his hygiene schedule? Since you were so insistent perhaps you should have asked a few more questions. My suggestions include:

- How many HMO's, shoddy PPO's, and crapitation plans have you signed up with?

- Your net is $60,000/month, but what is your overhead? (Its not what you bring in that counts, but rather what you get to keep)

- Are you proud of the dentistry you do? Would you do the same quality on a family member or close friend?

- Are you honest with your patients in diagnosis and designing treatment plans?

IF you were able to get honest answers, I believe some of your perspective might change.
 
AZ2thDOC said:
I wish you well, but there are certain fundamental issues I believe we'll just have to agree to disagree. .

Fine by me, but remember that fundamental issues held by our Dean, or my fellowclassmates, or faculty, aren't issues that I necessarily agree with.

My classmates and I are all different as you and any of your colleagues.

You might say, "fine, but by virtue of your attending that school, you are aligning yourself with the values and issues that the institution holds."

That is certainly correct, but there were other factors on the table for me when it came time to choose a dental school. I had a wife and children to think about, and it was important that they be in a comfortable environment as much as it was that I be in a comfortable environment.
 
AZ2thDOC said:
Doc*holliday:

I don't really believe you. Are you sure he wasn't referring to his hygiene schedule? Since you were so insistent perhaps you should have asked a few more questions. My suggestions include:

- How many HMO's, shoddy PPO's, and crapitation plans have you signed up with?

- Your net is $60,000/month, but what is your overhead? (Its not what you bring in that counts, but rather what you get to keep)

- Are you proud of the dentistry you do? Would you do the same quality on a family member or close friend?

- Are you honest with your patients in diagnosis and designing treatment plans?

IF you were able to get honest answers, I believe some of your perspective might change.

They were honest answers and he is a close personal friend, He brings home over 55%. I'm not going to debate ethics but if he was a poor dentist he wouldn't be doing as well as he was, nor would he maintain patients. In my limited experience, how well you perform procedures is not indicative of your success.... I have another friend just started a peds clinic in Gilbert and his first two years grossed over 70 a month, sure there is quite a bit of overhead, but it will come down. Just because you may not be able to make it in AZ doesn't mean others can't and haven't.
 
guest said:
NC is about to literally double the number of dental students we get. My class has a little 70something people, they want to raise the UNC class to 100 and add a new school at ECU (50).

All I can see is, man there's going to be a lot more dentists for the same number of patients. As of now, I don't hear any dentists complaining that they have too MANY patients.

For some reason the prognosis of our profession doesn't look as bright. I forsee a ton of new dentists coming out and all competing with each other for patients, lowering their fees etc... Am I being pessimistic?

The problem isn't with the number of dentists. They need to offer more incentives for dentist to work in rural communities in NC.

What's the ADA and ASDA's stance on all this.

Look at both the demand and supply side. From supply side theory, the number of graduating dentists could be increased to a point that competition in the urban areas lowers average net dental income in that arena to a level that could be expected to be earned in underserved rural areas. On the demand side, other states may begin to jump on the Mass example and require all citizens to have health insurance which would merely increase health professional incomes if the supply of health care providers remains constant. I think we will see economic forces in conjuction with the policiticians begin to add to both the supply and demand sides of the equation in an attempt to remedy the "underserved problem" in a manner that is equitable for everyone.
 

Brand new school, obviously. Hopefully some Midwestern students will post regarding this.

It's funny to read those posts that I wrote nearly 3 years ago, but I can now say that my education at Arizona was amazing. I'm graduating from my residency in May, and it's clearer to me in each passing month that I received a great education. I'm returning to Arizona and looking forward to teaching at the school.
 
Brand new school, obviously. Hopefully some Midwestern students will post regarding this.

It's funny to read those posts that I wrote nearly 3 years ago, but I can now say that my education at Arizona was amazing. I'm graduating from my residency in May, and it's clearer to me in each passing month that I received a great education. I'm returning to Arizona and looking forward to teaching at the school.

We're finishing up our first year here at MWU and all i can say is that it's been a blast! our class is really tight, everyone shares their study guides and review material, there aren't really any clicks, most of us go out on the town after tests and what not...etc. etc. the faculty members here are amazing! they are always there for us and are like family to us. the school is beautiful and the campus atmosphere is awesome. the quality of life here is really high, there is a lot of very affordable housing and probly 95% of our students live within 4-5 miles from school. if anyone has any q's about MWU feel free to PM me anytime.
 
Brand new school, obviously. Hopefully some Midwestern students will post regarding this.

It's funny to read those posts that I wrote nearly 3 years ago, but I can now say that my education at Arizona was amazing. I'm graduating from my residency in May, and it's clearer to me in each passing month that I received a great education. I'm returning to Arizona and looking forward to teaching at the school.

Gavin, are you going to teach full time? Or part time with your own peds office?
 
Having a great time at MWU. It's too late and I'm too tired to explain why or write some sort of report on it. Gavin, even though I enjoy my time here I look foward to looking back at this post in three years because that means I will be done.... goin to bed.
Brand new school, obviously. Hopefully some Midwestern students will post regarding this.

It's funny to read those posts that I wrote nearly 3 years ago, but I can now say that my education at Arizona was amazing. I'm graduating from my residency in May, and it's clearer to me in each passing month that I received a great education. I'm returning to Arizona and looking forward to teaching at the school.
 
We're finishing up our first year here at MWU and all i can say is that it's been a blast! our class is really tight, everyone shares their study guides and review material, there aren't really any clicks, most of us go out on the town after tests and what not...etc. etc. the faculty members here are amazing! they are always there for us and are like family to us. the school is beautiful and the campus atmosphere is awesome. the quality of life here is really high, there is a lot of very affordable housing and probly 95% of our students live within 4-5 miles from school. if anyone has any q's about MWU feel free to PM me anytime.
Oracle DMD, I'm glad you're enjoying dental school. It's making it less scary for me! : ) But how was the process of applying? I still have two more years of undergrad school to finish and I'm already freaking out about applying!! And the DAT; is it really that bad? I've finished up most of the prereqs but I feel like I've learned nothing. What's the best way to review/study for the DAT and prepare for the interview, etc??
 
Oracle DMD, I'm glad you're enjoying dental school. It's making it less scary for me! : ) But how was the process of applying? I still have two more years of undergrad school to finish and I'm already freaking out about applying!! And the DAT; is it really that bad? I've finished up most of the prereqs but I feel like I've learned nothing. What's the best way to review/study for the DAT and prepare for the interview, etc??

the dat is what it is so it sucks to study for it, take kaplan, take a bunch of practice tests, study study study! suffer now, and have a better year later. for the interview, dress professional, do your homework, know everything you can about the school you're interviewing at, ask thoughtful questions and lots of them, send a thank you note to your interviewers, and follow up 1-2X a month.
 
We're finishing up our first year here at MWU and all i can say is that it's been a blast! our class is really tight, everyone shares their study guides and review material, there aren't really any clicks, most of us go out on the town after tests and what not...etc. etc. the faculty members here are amazing! they are always there for us and are like family to us. the school is beautiful and the campus atmosphere is awesome. the quality of life here is really high, there is a lot of very affordable housing and probly 95% of our students live within 4-5 miles from school. if anyone has any q's about MWU feel free to PM me anytime.


Congrats! Being the 1st class is like the only child, you don't have to share with other kids. Once the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc kids come along you now have to share the instuctors and resources. You are lucky in that sense, future students may not be so lucky. In general the older or more established the school gets the more of "abandoned child" phenomena one gets.

A new school like ASDOH and MWDS have highly enthusiastic and zealous faculty who wants to show off their new school (child) and show the world that they too can play with the big boys and that they too can produce great children. In time one won't know if this will continue.
 
Congrats! Being the 1st class is like the only child, you don't have to share with other kids. Once the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc kids come along you now have to share the instuctors and resources. You are lucky in that sense, future students may not be so lucky. In general the older or more established the school gets the more of "abandoned child" phenomena one gets.

A new school like ASDOH and MWDS have highly enthusiastic and zealous faculty who wants to show off their new school (child) and show the world that they too can play with the big boys and that they too can produce great children. In time one won't know if this will continue.

Thanks! hopefully everyone can keep it up.
 
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