another undergraduate/graduate question

[72531]

My undergrad GPA is a 2.85 from University of MD(science is 2.5 OUCH) I already have a Master of Science in Microbiology from Johns Hopkins. GPA there is about 3.5. isn't it better if I just take courses on my own where I'm from or do a formal post-bacc? What postbacc programs are best for academic enhancers with linkage?

Or am I better off doing a SMP even though I already have a Masters degree? I know someone who went to the Georgetown SMP. Are there other good ones to consider?

Some people think I could apply because I have done graduate level science courses..but I definitely think my undergrad gpa needs to be at least 3.0. Any advice?

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[drizzt3117]

SMP would be your best bet.

 

[72531]

SMP would be your best bet.

can I even get into a SMP with less than a 3.0?

 

[72531]

I'm looking at the IMS program at Drexel. Even if I do well in this program I am worried that if I don't get into Drexel other schools will screen me out because they first look at the undergrad. Is this true?

 

[Deleted member 237747]

..................................

 

[doctorhoskinson]

I'm looking at the IMS program at Drexel. Even if I do well in this program I am worried that if I don't get into Drexel other schools will screen me out because they first look at the undergrad. Is this true?

I wouldn't recommend an SMP with your situation considering you already got an MS from Hopkins. You might want to consider another bachelors degree to strengthen the average of all undergraduate work (and retake the courses you failed)- also score well on the MCATs (32-33). Typically with a 120 undergraduate credits, you can get about 90 to transfer (give or take) and just hit up 15-18 credit hours in the spring and fall semesters with about 9-12 in the summer. This means in a year you will have another bachelors and most medical schools with simply take the GPAs weighted with the amount of credits and average them. A 4.0 will get you about a 3.3-3.4 total. it's definitely cheaper than an SMP!

With such good graduate work, you may be a candidate for an MD/PhD program. Many of the lesser medical schools slide a little on the admittance to the MD program if they are dealing with a candidate with strong research because medical scientists are typically in different circles of medicine. If you still have connections at Hopkins, then talk with the premed people over there about getting competitive for an MD/PhD. The government usually pays for your tuition as well.

 

[72531]

I wouldn't recommend an SMP with your situation considering you already got an MS from Hopkins. You might want to consider another bachelors degree to strengthen the average of all undergraduate work (and retake the courses you failed)- also score well on the MCATs (32-33). Typically with a 120 undergraduate credits, you can get about 90 to transfer (give or take) and just hit up 15-18 credit hours in the spring and fall semesters with about 9-12 in the summer. This means in a year you will have another bachelors and most medical schools with simply take the GPAs weighted with the amount of credits and average them. A 4.0 will get you about a 3.3-3.4 total. it's definitely cheaper than an SMP!

With such good graduate work, you may be a candidate for an MD/PhD program. Many of the lesser medical schools slide a little on the admittance to the MD program if they are dealing with a candidate with strong research because medical scientists are typically in different circles of medicine. If you still have connections at Hopkins, then talk with the premed people over there about getting competitive for an MD/PhD. The government usually pays for your tuition as well.

My gpa would only go up to like 3.15 and my science would still be really low. How would I put that on my AMCAS if 90 credits were from before? I was considering SMP because if I got into a program like EVMS then I would have a good chance of getting into the medical school.

 

[72531]

I wonder why you would not apply. GPA of 3.5 in Grad school looks good. I spoke to my Pre-Med advisor he advised me to do a real MS in Genetics or something to make my application solid, in case Med school does not work out I will have another career. He really did not have any opinion on SMP(not heard of it!), he told me to do a real Master Program of 2 years than do SMP to make my application solid. Any kind of Master Program is a seperate line item in medical application ...

I know it's a separate line..but people tell me that undergrad work is looked at more..especially because in a lot of graduate programs they don't give grades below B's anyway so a lot of people do well.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

My gpa would only go up to like 3.15 and my science would still be really low. How would I put that on my AMCAS if 90 credits were from before? I was considering SMP because if I got into a program like EVMS then I would have a good chance of getting into the medical school.

If you got your degree at a different university, then your science GPA can be a 4.0. And as for the app, you simply record all your coursework and submit all your transcripts. There are thousands of people admitted to medical school every year with two bachelors degrees. Both degrees are averaged. The graduate line provides a reference for your abilities in the hard sciences thus don't worry very much about the failed courses if you retake them. We understand that people make mistakes in the past.

An SMP will not help you because the ones that would provide the best path to medical school such as EVMS or Georgetown will likely not admit you. Your best bet is to continue the path you took at Hopkins and make yourself competitive for an MD/PhD. We have admitted people at UCDHSC SOM for our MD/PhD program with a 3.0 undergraduate GPA because they had a graduates degree from Berkeley, Stanford, or Boulder and strong MCATs.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

I know it's a separate line..but people tell me that undergrad work is looked at more..especially because in a lot of graduate programs they don't give grades below B's anyway so a lot of people do well.

You went to Hopkins for your graduate degree. It isn't a shill school and medical schools know that.

 

[72531]

If you got your degree at a different university, then your science GPA can be a 4.0. And as for the app, you simply record all your coursework and submit all your transcripts. There are thousands of people admitted to medical school every year with two bachelors degrees. Both degrees are averaged. The graduate line provides a reference for your abilities in the hard sciences thus don't worry very much about the failed courses if you retake them. We understand that people make mistakes in the past.

An SMP will not help you because the ones that would provide the best path to medical school such as EVMS or Georgetown will likely not admit you. Your best bet is to continue the path you took at Hopkins and make yourself competitive for an MD/PhD. We have admitted people at UCDHSC SOM for our MD/PhD program with a 3.0 undergraduate GPA because they had a graduates degree from Berkeley, Stanford, or Boulder and strong MCATs.

Why would they not admit me? The SMP at EVMS has reqs of like 2.75 and a 26 MCAT and most of the people that do well in the SMP get into the med school.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Why would they not admit me? The SMP at EVMS has reqs of like 2.75 and a 26 MCAT and most of the people that do well in the SMP get into the med school.

EVMS is currently getting 6 apps for every 1 seat and they tend towards candidates who need graduate experience. Actually having a graduates degree will actually hurt your application. Even if you did get admitted, you will basically be redoing what you have already done. Seriously, just push for an MD/PhD, you will save yourself over 250,000 dollars and have an easier time getting admitted.

 

[KiwiBruin]

EVMS is currently getting 6 apps for every 1 seat and they tend towards candidates who need graduate experience. Actually having a graduates degree will actually hurt your application. Even if you did get admitted, you will basically be redoing what you have already done. Seriously, just push for an MD/PhD, you will save yourself over 250,000 dollars and have an easier time getting admitted.

I think you are a little bit confused doctorhoskinson. Of course I am not an expert on MD/PhD programs, but from what I seen, MD/PhD programs are more competitive/harder to get into and value research/publications. I heard MD/PhD programs tend to scrutinize on grades more. Also, how do we know the OP wants to spend an extra 4 years doing research if she gets into such a program?

I personally think that you should apply to SMPs and get a 3.7+. Then you will have a good chance of interviewing/going to that school. I am not certain of your MCAT score OP, but I would make sure you have a high MCAT score to offset your GPA (~30+ but maybe 33+ would be even better). I heard programs are a bit lenient on the minimum GPA requirement if you got a good MCAT. Also apply early to those programs, try to get good letters of rec, write an awesome personal statement for those programs. Lastly, you should let them know somehow that you are seriously about getting into the program and try to get them to remember you. Just my advice. Not sure how good it is.
Just like how they say you should apply early and broadly for medical schools, I think you should do the same for SMPs. Furthermore, since you might have some free time between now and then, just take some undergraduate classes to show that you have changed and can get good grades as well as raising your gpa up (no matter how little it might change). You might also want to consider DO schools where they let you replace your grade completely with a retake of the same class. Also, there are DO SMPs with a little bit easier minimum requirements. You must remember that the minimum requirements are the minimum and in no way do they represent the average of the incoming class at the SMP. Good luck~

 

[LizzyM]

MD/PhD programs are more competitive/harder to get into [than MD programs]and value research/publications.

Absolutely. MD/PhD programs are expect applicants to have had a strong research laboratory experience, publications, and a compelling essay/interview indicating a strong and enduring interest in a career as a physician-scientist. It is not a good choice for anyone looking to save $250,000; the opportunity cost of those 4 years in the lab working on the PhD wipes out any "savings" over going through the MD + residency and going into private practice.

 

[drizzt3117]

Why would they not admit me? The SMP at EVMS has reqs of like 2.75 and a 26 MCAT and most of the people that do well in the SMP get into the med school.

You look like a good candidate for EVMS. Probably the type of SMP that have a linkage to their med school are going to be the highest yield for you, because then you won't have to worry about applying open pool.

 

[72531]

Absolutely. MD/PhD programs are expect applicants to have had a strong research laboratory experience, publications, and a compelling essay/interview indicating a strong and enduring interest in a career as a physician-scientist. It is not a good choice for anyone looking to save $250,000; the opportunity cost of those 4 years in the lab working on the PhD wipes out any "savings" over going through the MD + residency and going into private practice.

Yeah...I was a bit surprised by this MD/PhD suggestion considering the incredibly competitive candidates that apply. I can't even get into a MD program, why would I get into a MD/PhD??? I'm not too fond of doing more research either... :]

 

[72531]

EVMS is currently getting 6 apps for every 1 seat and they tend towards candidates who need graduate experience. Actually having a graduates degree will actually hurt your application. Even if you did get admitted, you will basically be redoing what you have already done. Seriously, just push for an MD/PhD, you will save yourself over 250,000 dollars and have an easier time getting admitted.

Um, I don't think having a graduate degree can hurt any application. I also would not be redoing what I've done because I have not taken medical school courses. I have taken graduate courses like bacteriology, parasitology, immunology, virology, etc. I have not taken embryology, histology..I took biochemistry in college and got a C..so yeah I think I could benefit :]

 

[drizzt3117]

Don't worry about the MD/PhD suggestion, it is ridiculous. The national matriculant mean is ~3.8/35 for 2008 iirc.

EVMS or RFU would be good choices for you.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

I think you are a little bit confused doctorhoskinson. Of course I am not an expert on MD/PhD programs, but from what I seen, MD/PhD programs are more competitive/harder to get into and value research/publications. I heard MD/PhD programs tend to scrutinize on grades more. Also, how do we know the OP wants to spend an extra 4 years doing research if she gets into such a program?

There are 40 participant programs in the MSTP and the data is incredibly skewed. At any one time there are around 900-950 people enrolled in an MSTP approved MD/PhD program and while the mean GPA is 3.8/35 MCAT, the median is 3.6/32. Exceptional candidates with remarkable scores tend to go into research and thus shift the data, but remember they tend to compete for the Ivy circles. University of Iowa, Carver admitted a median of 3.6 GPA/33 MCAT from last years data. But here is the cool part, some MD/PhD programs weigh your graduate education with equal consideration to your undergraduate education. That means all those years at Hopkins really help you.

It really comes down to what you want to practice. If you like research, then focus on the MD/PhD side and within a year or so you can be competitive. Else go to an SMP

 

[drizzt3117]

There are 40 participant programs in the MSTP and the data is incredibly skewed. At any one time there are around 900-950 people enrolled in an MSTP approved MD/PhD program and while the mean GPA is 3.8/35 MCAT, the median is 3.6/32. Exceptional candidates with remarkable scores tend to go into research and thus shift the data, but remember they tend to compete for the Ivy circles. University of Iowa, Carver admitted a median of 3.6 GPA/33 MCAT from last years data. But here is the cool part, some MD/PhD programs weigh your graduate education with equal consideration to your undergraduate education. That means all those years at Hopkins really help you.

It really comes down to what you want to practice. If you like research, then focus on the MD/PhD side and within a year or so you can be competitive. Else go to an SMP

This is the most ridiculous post you've made yet. Since you're supposed to be a mathematician, I'd be interested in knowing how you can have a mean of 3.8/35 and a median of 3.6/32...

If half the people are at or below 3.6 in GPA, it means the other half must have at least 4.0 for that to be the case. Likewise, if half the people have 32 or below MCAT, the other half must average 38 or above. The first situation isn't possible, the second is unlikely to probably impossible.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

This is the most ridiculous post you've made yet. Since you're supposed to be a mathematician, I'd be interested in knowing how you can have a mean of 3.8/35 and a median of 3.6/32...

If half the people are at or below 3.6 in GPA, it means the other half must have at least 4.0 for that to be the case. Likewise, if half the people have 32 or below MCAT, the other half must average 38 or above. The first situation isn't possible, the second is unlikely to probably impossible.

That simply is not true. First off the MD/PhD data set is incredibly small (about 150/year) with 40 organizations that means at most 3-4 per institution (Yes the Ivys have larger sets) Thus you could have three people at a single school. It isn't hard have to have a 4.0 mixed in. Outliers significantly skew the data and the mean + small data set definitely shows this result. And how the **** can you possibility make a statement that having a median of 3.6 requires the other half to be in the 4.0 range? Have you every considered the bulk hover around 3.7-3.8 for the other half? It's a continuous distribution. Yes the mean data does force the 3.8 upward, but guess what there are a hell of a lot of 3.95/4.0s in the mix with MD/PhD. They go Ivy and come from around the world.

 

[drizzt3117]

That simply is not true. First off the MD/PhD data set is incredibly small (about 150/year) with 40 organizations that means at most 3-4 per institution (Yes the Ivys have larger sets) Thus you could have three people at a single school. It isn't hard have to have a 4.0 mixed in. Outliers significantly skew the data and the mean + small data set definitely shows this result. And how the **** can you possibility make a statement that having a median of 3.6 requires the other half to be in the 4.0 range? Have you every considered the bulk hover around 3.7-3.8 for the other half? It's a continuous distribution. Yes the mean data does force the 3.8 upward, but guess what there are a hell of a lot of 3.95/4.0s in the mix with MD/PhD. They go Ivy and come from around the world.

I can't believe I have to explain this, but here goes.

A median of 3.6 means half of the sample is at 3.6 or below. Just for fun, let's say the mean of that half is 3.55 ( personally I think the number would be much lower than that, but whatever, let's say the distribution is super tight.

What would the mean of the other half have to be for the OVERALL mean be to be 3.8? 4.05... Obviously, not possible.

That number you stated is simply wrong. The med GPA for md only matriculants is 3.65. If you are trying to say md/phd is lower you're simply wrong. Again, stop giving people bad advice.

 

[RoadRunner17]

Wow, so much misinformation in this thread. I wouldn't pay attention to some of the stuff that doctorhoskinson is posting... it's simply wrong. Do NOT apply to MD/PhD programs, listen to LizzyM and drizzt, here.

If you're looking to save some time, do one of these SMPs that let you link into the medical school provided you are successful. That would be high-yield and save you some time. That would be EVMS, I don't think RFU has a linkage anymore, though but I could be wrong.

If you want to make yourself more competitive as a whole, I would do a post-bac or a second bachelor's, get as many A's as possible, get your GPA above 3.0... your science GPA will probably be much more pliable than your overall.. take the MCAT, destroy that, then look at doing one of the "big" SMPs like Georgetown or BU (or EVMS or RFU), and bust your chops to do well in the program. This plan will take 3-5 years to come to fruition, but I think it could produce a lot of good results.

But personally I'd try to do a SMP that guarantees an acceptance if you meet certain guidelines, that could be EVMS's program.. that saves time provided you are confident in your ability to succeed. Otherwise, you could bring yourself along by doing a post-bac THEN a SMP.

 

[72531]

Wow, so much misinformation in this thread. I wouldn't pay attention to some of the stuff that doctorhoskinson is posting... it's simply wrong. Do NOT apply to MD/PhD programs, listen to LizzyM and drizzt, here.

If you're looking to save some time, do one of these SMPs that let you link into the medical school provided you are successful. That would be high-yield and save you some time. That would be EVMS, I don't think RFU has a linkage anymore, though but I could be wrong.

If you want to make yourself more competitive as a whole, I would do a post-bac or a second bachelor's, get as many A's as possible, get your GPA above 3.0... your science GPA will probably be much more pliable than your overall.. take the MCAT, destroy that, then look at doing one of the "big" SMPs like Georgetown or BU (or EVMS or RFU), and bust your chops to do well in the program. This plan will take 3-5 years to come to fruition, but I think it could produce a lot of good results.

But personally I'd try to do a SMP that guarantees an acceptance if you meet certain guidelines, that could be EVMS's program.. that saves time provided you are confident in your ability to succeed. Otherwise, you could bring yourself along by doing a post-bac THEN a SMP.

Don't worry..I'm not that naive. I would not apply to MD/PhD programs. I already plan to apply to EVMS for sure. I looked at the Rosalind Franklin one but it didnt seem to say anything about admissions into the medical school. Honestly, for me, I am not that concerned about where I go to medical school (though I would like MD for various reasons) because I feel it is pretty standardized and my board scores and residency will be important.

Thanks for the advice everyone!