Another woman blinded by stem cells in the eyeball...

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
drusso

drusso

Full Member
Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
Verified Member
Physician
Verified Expert
Gold Donor
Joined
Nov 21, 1998
Messages
12,543
Reaction score
6,929
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
The use of stem cells is outta control. People are already acting like this is a time tested, rigorously studied panacea. I have a friend who went to a pain clinic and paid $20k cash to get stem cells harvested out of his butt and injected into his cervical and lumbar facets, bilateral shoulders, knees, hips and elbows... all in one setting! He said it took the full 8 hours and he could barely walk when he left. Another girl I know said her younger sister refused to go on Remicaid for her Crohn's dx instead electing to have an IV stem cell infusion every 6 months at the cost of $15k a pop. I told her I hoped it works and she acted as if it working was a no brainer?! Are we getting the cart before the horse here? I personally don't know too much about the efficacy of this stuff.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
clubdeac said:
The use of stem cells is outta control. People are already acting like this is a time tested, rigorously studied panacea. I have a friend who went to a pain clinic and paid $20k cash to get stem cells harvested out of his butt and injected into his cervical and lumbar facets, bilateral shoulders, knees, hips and elbows... all in one setting! He said it took the full 8 hours and he could barely walk when he left. Another girl I know said her younger sister refused to go on Remicaid for her Crohn's dx instead electing to have an IV stem cell infusion every 6 months at the cost of $15k a pop. I told her I hoped it works and she acted as if it working was a no brainer?! Are we getting the cart before the horse here? I personally don't know too much about the efficacy of this stuff.
Click to expand...

Fat grafts are not stem cell treatments. This thread should bring you up to date:

DePalma is Lying to Hype Mesoblast
 
clubdeac said:
The use of stem cells is outta control. People are already acting like this is a time tested, rigorously studied panacea. I have a friend who went to a pain clinic and paid $20k cash to get stem cells harvested out of his butt and injected into his cervical and lumbar facets, bilateral shoulders, knees, hips and elbows... all in one setting! He said it took the full 8 hours and he could barely walk when he left. Another girl I know said her younger sister refused to go on Remicaid for her Crohn's dx instead electing to have an IV stem cell infusion every 6 months at the cost of $15k a pop. I told her I hoped it works and she acted as if it working was a no brainer?! Are we getting the cart before the horse here? I personally don't know too much about the efficacy of this stuff.
Click to expand...

Sounds legit. :wow:
 
clubdeac said:
The use of stem cells is outta control. People are already acting like this is a time tested, rigorously studied panacea. I have a friend who went to a pain clinic and paid $20k cash to get stem cells harvested out of his butt and injected into his cervical and lumbar facets, bilateral shoulders, knees, hips and elbows... all in one setting! He said it took the full 8 hours and he could barely walk when he left. Another girl I know said her younger sister refused to go on Remicaid for her Crohn's dx instead electing to have an IV stem cell infusion every 6 months at the cost of $15k a pop. I told her I hoped it works and she acted as if it working was a no brainer?! Are we getting the cart before the horse here? I personally don't know too much about the efficacy of this stuff.
Click to expand...

Physicians used to be more or less self-regulating and self-monitoring

The consequences of this type of charlatanism is a progressive loss of autonomy and increased oversight and scrutiny of all aspects of our practices by third parties including the goverment

However, you cannot govern a people who will not govern themselves

Loopholes are found by the scuz buckets

As a response, additional oversight and rules are implemented by the third parties

More loopholes are found

The spiral continues

"In the middle of a massacre, there's no good place to stand."

These are profound and perennial human problems to which spiritual and religious solutions are required
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Timeoutofmind said:
Physicians used to be more or less self-regulating and self-monitoring

The consequences of this type of charlatanism is a progressive loss of autonomy and increased oversight and scrutiny of all aspects of our practices by third parties including the goverment

However, you cannot govern a people who will not govern themselves

Loopholes are found by the scuz buckets

As a response, additional oversight and rules are implemented by the third parties

More loopholes are found

The spiral continues

"In the middle of a massacre, there's no good place to stand."

These are profound and perennial human problems to which spiritual and religious solutions are required
Click to expand...



The next step should be mixing stem cells with CBD oil and selling it is a natural way to lighten your pockets
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Perhaps genetically modifying the stem cells to produce THC, then injecting them back into the patient would give patients a permanent high. It would save them the cost of the medical marijuana cards and buying all that weed..
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Timeoutofmind said:
Physicians used to be more or less self-regulating and self-monitoring
The consequences of this type of charlatanism is a progressive loss of autonomy and increased oversight and scrutiny of all aspects of our practices by third parties including the goverment
Click to expand...

lets not dismiss the consumers who will gladly pay the $$$ for this nonsense, not vaccinate their kids, and buy gwenyth paltrow's latest vagina egg. insurances are also driving this more and more as they cover fewer services and charge more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Stem cell critics always readily dismiss reported positive outcomes as anecdotal, yet are the first to seize on negative stories like this even though no less anecdotal. How do we know the adverse outcome was caused by the cells and not poor injection technique? How do we know the patient didn't just poke her eye out while running with scissors?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
GH253 said:
Stem cell critics always readily dismiss reported positive outcomes as anecdotal, yet are the first to seize on negative stories like this even though no less anecdotal. How do we know the adverse outcome was caused by the cells and not poor injection technique? How do we know the patient didn't just poke her eye out while running with scissors?
Click to expand...
That’s kind of a weak defense... but technically you are correct, it is not specifically stated in the case report that the patient did not hurt herself. I’m not sure that it is a requirement of all articles to specifically state the lack of obvious confounding factors such as trauma, however.

Perhaps the problem should be looked at in a different way. How can we prove these injections are safe? If the injection didn’t directly cause the blindness, but caused the individual to suddenly think “I should run around with a pair of scissor just in case I can poke my eye out”, then the injection is still dangerous...
 
She was running with scissors while receiving a stem cell injection in her eye?!? No wonder she went blind!
 
Any positive responses from these eye injections? If 1000 patients improved, then we should hear about it.
 
This is nothing less than human experimentation on patients that were poorly informed about the lack of preclinical or clinical trials.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
algosdoc said:
This is nothing less than human experimentation on patients that were poorly informed about the lack of preclinical or clinical trials.
Click to expand...

The FDA approval process is much more analogous to human experimentation. The government treats sick people as means to the ends of endless bureaucracy and rationalizes it as being "necessary" and done in the name of science. Case reports like this represent nothing more than individuals making their own decisions based on their own tolerance for risk. The leftist media focuses on charlatanistic clinics and bad outcomes and spins a fantastically distorted narrative to drum up support for a regulatory attack that will set the legitimate use of stem cells back decades.
 
Last edited:
There are no clinical studies published on the use of the garbage being injected into the macula, considering the stem cell content is less than 2% from adipose sourcing. This is well beyond what any ethical clinic would do and is not simply individuals making decisions based on risk. They have no idea what the risks are since no one has studied the procedure. These individuals are being used as animals in experimentation, but even worse, are being charged a fortune to do so. It is very likely that there is no IRB approval of any study at all, and these cowboys are maiming the public based on their own whims, overzealous premature embracing of unstudied-unproven techniques, and the naivete of the public moved by buzzwords rather than medicine. Yes, the FDA should come down very hard on the stem cell industry for any application that does not have published studies. Doctors should also be stripped of their licenses by the state medical boards for practicing unethical human experimentation, with financial gain as their goal, supplanting safety of patients.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Loss of license is the beginning. This is no different than injecting silicone caulk as cosmetic filler by people in their garages. Assault and manslaughter. Not the practice of medicine.
 
algosdoc said:
There are no clinical studies published on the use of the garbage being injected into the macula, considering the stem cell content is less than 2% from adipose sourcing. This is well beyond what any ethical clinic would do and is not simply individuals making decisions based on risk. They have no idea what the risks are since no one has studied the procedure. These individuals are being used as animals in experimentation, but even worse, are being charged a fortune to do so. It is very likely that there is no IRB approval of any study at all, and these cowboys are maiming the public based on their own whims, overzealous premature embracing of unstudied-unproven techniques, and the naivete of the public moved by buzzwords rather than medicine. Yes, the FDA should come down very hard on the stem cell industry for any application that does not have published studies. Doctors should also be stripped of their licenses by the state medical boards for practicing unethical human experimentation, with financial gain as their goal, supplanting safety of patients.
Click to expand...

I haven't looked for any studies on the use of stem cells to treat macular degeneration, so have no idea whether it's true that no one has studied the use of stem cell procedures for that purpose (people often make this charge without bothering to check), but if there was no evidence to support the concept and the patient pursued it anyway, that person should have known it probably wouldn't work and that no one could know the likelihood of an adverse event. I feel for the person, but it's his own fault that he bought into hype and made a foolish, uniformed decision. Don't cut everyone off from the possible legitimate uses of stem cell procedures just to save a few idiots from themselves. If a clinic makes false claims about the level of evidence behind a procedure to treat a given condition, patients have recourse to address that as consumer fraud through the legal system. Saying the FDA should come down on stem cell clinics is ridiculous. Should it also come down on orthopedic surgeons performing arthroscopic debridement and other medical procedures not shown to work? BTW here's a short list of buzzwords regularly used by people on the pro-regulatory side that have nothing to do with science or reality: "dubious," "snake oil," "wild west," "cowboy," "desperate," "human experimentation," "public interest," etc.
 
Last edited:
im very confused by your post. you state that patients "should have known it probably wouldnt' work"? patients rely on physicians to do the research and groundwork to make sure procedures are better than placebo and have a good knowledge about the risks of such procedures.

however, they are also "gullible" and willing to listen to anyone, even one who is purely interested in financial gain. and people will do anything for money. even lie, cheat, steal. also, how many people have told you they are interested in trying alternative therapy with no track record of working at all? i get that at least 3 times... an hour.

some regulation needs to be done for snake oil, as you point out.


fyi, consumer fraud is insufficient to compensate for serious iatrogenically caused diseases.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
GH253, you seem to feel it is inappropriate for any governmental regulation of doctors practices even when doctors violate the public trust, are engaging in experimentation using humans as the first scientific proof of concept, and charging patients astronomical sums to permanently maime them on a lark of an idea. It is my hope that your medical practices are more ethical than these charlatans you defend so vehemently who are fleecing patients. The unilateral physician placement of all culpability on patients for human experimentation willing to grasp at straws is legally absurd on many fronts. Are you completely unfamiliar with the Nuremberg Code of 1947? How about the Kefauver amendments to the Food and Drug Act of 1962? Surely you have heard of the Declaration of Helsinki 1964:
  • Research with humans should be based on laboratory and animal experimentation
  • Research protocols should be reviewed by an independent committee
  • Informed consent is necessary
  • Research should be conducted by medically/scientifically qualified individuals
  • Risks should not exceed benefits
 
Last edited:
GH253 said:
Stem cell critics always readily dismiss reported positive outcomes as anecdotal, yet are the first to seize on negative stories like this even though no less anecdotal. How do we know the adverse outcome was caused by the cells and not poor injection technique? How do we know the patient didn't just poke her eye out while running with scissors?
Click to expand...

The most plausible of explanations.
 
https://www.theregreview.org/2017/10/30/ittleman-fda-regulate-human-cells/

Amen!

"FDA’s efforts to regulate this industry have signaled that it is the regulator of first—and only—resort, but until recently it had rarely asserted its authority—not even sending a warning letter when a Florida doctor blinded two patients by injecting fat-derived cells into their eyes. Within this enforcement vacuum, an industry flourished, enabling any doctor with a liposuction device, centrifuge, and an infusion pump to become a “stem cell” doctor. Meanwhile, states and their medical boards, because of FDA’s court-approved jurisdiction, have failed to hold doctors to the confines of their licenses and specialties and have yet to set forth best practices for the use of stem-cell procedures within their borders."
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
drusso said:
Lawsuits piling up against quack stem cell clinics.

New lawsuit filed against Sunrise stem cell clinic
Click to expand...
Good. There used to be some quack on the forum that was all about "regenerative" stem cell medicine and said the FDA shouldn't regulate him because it's safe and his patients' choice. I explained exactly the sort of nightmare scenarios this thread is about, and he said oh that doesn't happen blah blah. Hopefully these cases like up and put people like him into bankruptcy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
IV "stem cell therapy" is fraud...IV cells go the lungs; IA cells stay in the joint.

Nucl Med Biol. 2017 Mar;46:36-42. doi: 10.1016/j.nucmedbio.2016.12.003. Epub 2016 Dec 9.
Intraarticular and intravenous administration of 99MTc-HMPAO-labeled human mesenchymal stem cells (99MTC-AH-MSCS): In vivo imaging and biodistribution.
Meseguer-Olmo L1, Montellano AJ2, Martínez T3, Martínez CM4, Revilla-Nuin B5, Roldán M6, Mora CF7, López-Lucas MD8, Fuente T6.
Author information

Abstract
INTRODUCTION:
Therapeutic application of intravenous administered (IV) human bone marrow-derived mesenchymal stem cells (ahMSCs) appears to have as main drawback the massive retention of cells in the lung parenchyma, questioning the suitability of this via of administration. Intraarticular administration (IAR) could be considered as an alternative route for therapy in degenerative and traumatic joint lesions. Our work is outlined as a comparative study of biodistribution of 99mTc-ahMSCs after IV and IAR administration, via scintigraphic study in an animal model.

METHODS:
Isolated primary culture of adult human mesenchymal stem cells was labeled with 99mTc-HMPAO for scintigraphic study of in vivo distribution after intravenous and intra-articular (knee) administration in rabbits.

RESULTS:
IV administration of radiolabeled ahMSCs showed the bulk of radioactivity in the lung parenchyma while IAR images showed activity mainly in the injected cavity and complete absence of uptake in pulmonary bed.

CONCLUSIONS:
Our study shows that IAR administration overcomes the limitations of IV injection, in particular, those related to cells destruction in the lung parenchyma. After IAR administration, cells remain within the joint cavity, as expected given its size and adhesion properties.

ADVANCES IN KNOWLEDGE:
Intra-articular administration of adult human mesenchymal stem cells could be a suitable route for therapeutic effect in joint lesions.

IMPLICATIONS FOR PATIENT CARE:
Local administration of adult human mesenchymal stem cells could improve their therapeutic effects, minimizing side effects in patients.

Copyright © 2016 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

KEYWORDS:
(99m)Tc-ahMSCs; Biodistribution; Intra-articular; Intravenous; Mesenchymal stem cells; Scintigraphy
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
drusso said:
IV "stem cell therapy" is fraud...IV cells go the lungs; IA cells stay in the joint.

RESULTS:
IV administration of radiolabeled ahMSCs showed the bulk of radioactivity in the lung parenchyma while IAR images showed activity mainly in the injected cavity and complete absence of uptake in pulmonary bed.

CONCLUSIONS:
Our study shows that IAR administration overcomes the limitations of IV injection, in particular, those related to cells destruction in the lung parenchyma. After IAR administration, cells remain within the joint cavity, as expected given its size and adhesion properties.
Click to expand...

they tease...how much is "the bulk" and how long do they stay in the joint?
 
Unless you're an ophthalmologist, please don't inject PRP into eyeballs either...

Eur J Ophthalmol. 2018 Oct 7:1120672118803515. doi: 10.1177/1120672118803515. [Epub ahead of print]
Treatment of chronic and extreme ocular hypotension following glaucoma surgery with intraocular platelet-rich plasma: A case report.
Abdalrahman O1, Rodriguez AE1,2, Alio Del Barrio JL2,3, Alio JL2,3.
Author information

Abstract
PURPOSE:
To report a new approach for the treatment of severe ocular hypotony secondary to glaucoma filtering surgery with mitomycin C by injecting autologous eye platelet-rich plasma (E-PRP) in the anterior chamber to block excessive diffuse filtration through an abnormally thinned sclera.

METHODS:
A 49-year-old patient with the Axenfeld-Rieger syndrome and severe chronic hypotony and corneal edema following filtering glaucoma surgery with mitomycin C received an isolated injection of 0.3 mL of autologous platelet-rich plasma in the anterior chamber.

RESULTS:
Intraocular pressure measured by Goldman's applanation tonometry 6 h after the procedure improved to 18 mmHg. Intraocular pressure remained stable along the full follow-up period of 6 month. No filtration or hypotony or any other complications were observed.

CONCLUSION:
Intracameral platelet-rich plasma (E-PRP) injection was an effective, rapidly effective, and safe procedure for treatment of severe chronic ocular hypotony following glaucoma filtrating surgery.

KEYWORDS:
Descemet membrane endothelial keratoplasty; Hypotony; filtration; glaucoma surgery; platelet-rich plasma

PMID:

30295074

DOI:

10.1177/1120672118803515
 
I’ll pass.....my cousin is an optho and he can’t be bothered to stop doing 5min laser surgeries for cash
 
To me, stem cells and PRP have moderate face validity with poor to low quality evidence for support but also low risk for harm.

Sure, your body can heal itself.
It hasn't in your case, but maybe if we find your magic seeds and plant them in the right place, it might work.
Generally speaking, you should be fine if it doesn't work.

The question really is whether the risk of an injection is valuable to anyone other than the folks making money.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

bedrock
Stem cell injections- regenexx vs ROW
Replies
25
Views
1K
cowboydoc
cowboydoc
H
Another Assistance with Job Offer Thread
Replies
7
Views
810
callmeanesthesia
C
S
  • Poll
another job advice post (TIA)
2
Replies
95
Views
4K
po_boy
P
drrosenrosen
Woman wins $10M suit over epidural hematoma
Replies
23
Views
2K
nopain1234
N
D
Yet another pain movie....Pain Hustlers on Netflix
Replies
6
Views
1K
GandalfTheWhite
GandalfTheWhite
Top