Answer to: [what degree should I get MSW/MFT/MA or PsyD]. Looking at your ROI

[PhDMBALCSW]

So, I keep coming across this question by those who aren’t sure what degree they want to pursue. Hopefully, by the end of this posting, you’ll have the information you need to make an informed decision. I’m going to talk about which degree gets you the most return on your investment or ROI.

People with jobs who have MAs and PsyDs land jobs on a spectrum. I know people with MSW degrees who earn salaries in the $30Ks, but they are few and far between. I like to refer to this group as “advocates,” because they love what they do and really don’t care about how much they make. On the other end of the spectrum, there are people with PsyDs who earn salaries in the mid-$100Ks as new hires, but these jobs are also few and far between. You’ll come across PsyDs on this website that say that they are Neuro-Psychs or in Forensic Psychology and rolling in dough. Well, it’s probably true, but also know that they are closer to one end of the spectrum. Plus, these people are most likely driven individuals and would probably find ways to make high-end salaries regardless of what profession they choose. I’m also excluding people who are in private practice because it’s too hard to quantify how much they make and their earnings aren’t accessible. People in private practice working full-time can be losing money (costs greater than revenue) or making tons of cash; but in reality they are somewhere in the middle. This is just like starting and running any old business.

Your typical MSW, MFT or MA in clinical counseling/psychology are two-year programs and can be found in both private and public colleges or universities. They can also be part-time or full-time programs. A lot of California State Universities offer full-time programs with all of their classes at night, so this is a plus. PsyDs, on the other hand, are only offered through private universities in CA. So, let’s look at full-time Master degree programs and PsyD programs. As I mentioned before you can find most MA degrees in CSUs, so let’s look at their fees for full-time studies. Currently, the fees are $2,868.50 per semester and $5,737 for the year. So, a degree in clinical Social Work, MFT, Clinical Counseling/Psychology, and School Psychology will cost $11,474. Of course you could get the same degrees at a private university in the $40Ks or way more, but why? Now let’s look at PsyD programs. As I mentioned before, these programs are only available through private universities. I found that Alliant University, which is one the most common ones around here charges 990 per unit and requires 120 units to earn your degree. You’re looking at $118,800 for the entire program, Wowser! So let’s recap, a degree in clinical Social Work, MFT, or clinical counseling will cost you $11K vs $118K for PsyD in Clinical Psychology.

Now, let’s look at the two salaries. Master-level and Doctoral clinicians work in a lot of settings (Public and Private Hospitals, local government agencies, community mental health agencies that get reimbursed by the state or third party payers, schools, probation detention halls and camps, prisons, jails, and VA clinics, etc., etc…). As you can see, you can find work almost anywhere, but some jobs are steadier than others and some are almost always hiring. As I mentioned earlier, some PsyDs are going to say, “well, I make over $100K.” This may be so, but I wonder if they started at this salary and how available these jobs are in your area or in the area that you plan to move to. For example, is there a VA in your area? VA clinics are sparse. What about Neuro-Psych? Well, ask how many hospitals are in your area and how many Neuro-Psychs can they absorb? My guess is not many. Besides, these are specialties. For the most part, most clinicians (MAs and PsyDs alike) are going to be GENERALISTS, meaning that their main service is going to be psychotherapy, and the minimum requirement for this is a Masters, at least this is the case in California. My guess is that you’ll probably end up working in a mental health agency that is either directly operated by local government or a private agency that has a contract with the local government and/or bills other insurance companies to deliver mental health services. Working at a hospital is a good place to work, but they don’t hire by the droves like the former, and most I’ve seen prefer licensed clinicians. Here is what an entry level clinical social worker makes at a local government mental health clinic: $4,443.09 to$ 5,519.73 per month. A Clinical Psychologist will earn $5,076.00 to $6,657.00 per month at the same agency. So, the difference here is $633 to $1,000 per month. I know PsyDs that pay more than this in school loans per month, crazy huh? You could probably get away with paying less than $100K per month for an $11K loan, I do!

It would be too easy to think that the difference in terms of monetary value between the two programs would be the difference between $118K and $11K, the cost of the two programs. The reality is that the MFT or MSW would be working for two years before the PsyD graduates from school. So, in actuality, the PsyD would be losing out on two years of work at the base rate of $4,443 per month, that’s $106,632. By the time the PsyD begins to work, at the base rate of course, s/he would not only have lost on two years of work ($106,632) plus owe over $100K in loans. Again, the PsyD would make approximately $633 to $1000 per month more than the master-level clinician, that’s $7,596 to $12,000 per year. Assuming that neither of them would get promoted, because it just makes easier to keep the salaries constant, it would take the PsyD, approx. 23 years to catch up to the master-level clinician in terms of real (monetary) value. I compared PsyDs to MAs because that’s the question I come across on the web, plus it really is the next alternative option (an Economist concept).

A few things before I go. PsyDs are going to say, “Well, you should have a Doctorate to perform psychotherapy.” That is their opinion, and they are entitled to it. However, more education does not equate to being a good psychotherapist. There are way too many variables that equate with a good clinician, such as interpersonal skills, which in many situations cannot be taught; and let’s not devaluate how much experience in treating clients contributes to your profession, as well as clinical supervision and consultation. In essence, psychotherapy is an ART. Also, don’t let PsyDs fool you by putting themselves on the same level with PhDs. PsyD programs are relatively new to the scene (1970s) and not until recently were they excluded from the APA. Critics, including many PhDs claim that these schools don't properly train their students in science-based approaches to therapy. That is, because their one year dissertation is a fraction of what it takes to complete a dissertation in a PhD program. We’re talking three to eight years post master level coursework in a PhD program. In 2003, the late Donald Peterson, father of the PsyD movement, reconsidered what he had created: In an article in the American Psychologist, he termed the programs' high acceptance rates and low licensing scores "a dangerous situation."

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[O Gurl]

Grossly, I would agree that someone who wants to provide therapy and therapy only, would be better off with a master's level degree. As you mentioned, the PsyD could offer opportunities for specialized assessment (e.g. neuropsych), but if one wants to provide intervention only, it is a poor investment. The PsyD will have to compete with master's level clinicians for counseling jobs in private practice and CMHs and likely lose simply due to cost. PsyDs have to compete with PhDs in academia and medical centers (including VAs) and likely lose due to rigor of scientific training. The exceptions are the few university-based PsyD programs like Baylor, Rutgers, Indiana State, Loyola, etc. The diploma mill spots (loosely categorized by insane cohort sizes, low admissions standards, and exorbitant tuition and fees with no financial aid) like Alliant, Argosy, other professional schools, and to an extent, Nova Southeastern, can land PsyDs in a tough spot. However, master's level clinicians also need to be clear on limitations of practice, which can vary between states. Assessment (and thus ability to diagnose certain disorders) is outside the scope of practice for master's level clinicians--period. This also limits possibilities for contract work in forensics and schools. Also, if one has ANY aspirations toward academics or serious administrative positions, a master's will be insufficient. But if one wants to provide therapy only, there really is not need for a PsyD, IMO.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

One is a doctorate...and the rest are not. [/thread]

Also, don't let PsyDs fool you by putting themselves on the same level with PhDs. PsyD programs are relatively new to the scene (1970s) and not until recently were they excluded from the APA. Critics, including many PhDs claim that these schools don't properly train their students in science-based approaches to therapy. That is, because their one year dissertation is a fraction of what it takes to complete a dissertation in a PhD program. We're talking three to eight years post master level coursework in a PhD program.

I'm curious...what is your training/background?

Btw, what exactly does "not until recently were they excluded from the APA"?

 

[erg923]

. Also, don't let PsyDs fool you by putting themselves on the same level with PhDs. PsyD programs are relatively new to the scene (1970s) and not until recently were they excluded from the APA. Critics, including many PhDs claim that these schools don't properly train their students in science-based approaches to therapy. That is, because their one year dissertation is a fraction of what it takes to complete a dissertation in a PhD program. We're talking three to eight years post master level coursework in a PhD program. In 2003, the late Donald Peterson, father of the PsyD movement, reconsidered what he had created: In an article in the American Psychologist, he termed the programs' high acceptance rates and low licensing scores "a dangerous situation."

Good one, I'll be sure to tell all my Psy.D. supervisors on my upcoming internship and post-doc that "they aint foolin me...Im a ph.d candidate and my training is better. " Rule #1 of SDN should be not to make idiotic generalizations such as the above.

I think most peoples beef is with how professional schools have chosen to implement and mass produce the Psy.D degree. I see little flaw in the Vail model's underlying theory and philosophy. But way to take a short cut and stereotype all psy.ds...cause thats how Ph.Ds critical evaluate evidence, right?

 

[O Gurl]

Perhaps instead of name-calling, we should stick to actual facts and logic? Emotional responses do nothing to inform potential trainees who are trying to figure out their best career option.

 

[Skvader]

(Taken from the Bureau of Labor Statistics website)

Marriage and Family Therapists: Mean Annual Wage = $49,020; Median Annual Wage = $46,920
Child, Family, and School Social Workers: Mean = $43,540; Median = $39,960
Mental Health and Substance Abuse Social Workers: Mean = $41,350; Median = $38,200
Social Workers (All Other): Mean = $50,470; Median = $49,420
Clinical, Counseling, and School Psychologists: Mean = $72,310; Median = $66,040
Psychologists (All Other): Mean = $84,220; Median = $86,540

Maybe it's just me... but after looking at these statistics, it seems to me that it would be worth getting the PsyD degree in the long run. Sure, you'll be paying off student loans for a while... but after you've been in the field for several years, you'll also be making more than someone with an MA, MFT, MSW, etc. Or am I interpreting all this data incorrectly? Please do let me know, since I am currently looking at offers for PsyD programs and have yet to hear back from MFT programs. I don't want to get screwed over in the long run by going the doctorate route... but I don't want to get screwed over in the long run by going the masters route, based on entry-level salaries alone.

 

[KayJay85]

I don't know as much about career paths in masters level fields, but clinical psychology and psychology (exp) encompasses so much variability in regards to job responsibilities, time investment, competition levels, expertise, and venue that I'm not sure these average statistics are particularly meaningful.

I agree. There is a huge difference between clinical psychologists who specialize, are proficient in testing, are active and funded in research, and/or are in administrative positions and those who are in private practice or CMHs conducting talk therapy in common areas, like marriage and family therapy and treatment of garden variety depression. One is distinguished from other providers while the other will likely have to compete heavily for clientele. Also, in terms of the income statistics provided, one has to bear in mind that while entry level salaries differ, those who are providing general talk therapy are usually the ones pulling down the mean for psychologists. I, like Jon Snow, have heard of various routes to 6 figure incomes for psychologists--NONE of them consist of general marriage and family therapy. So if you look at lost years of income from spending 5 years pursuing a PsyD versus 2 years for MFT or SW degree and then look at the debt load incurred and then factor in that you will likely be competing for the same jobs, it simply doesn't justify the PsyD. Also, 5 years to PsyD is often an underestimate. Given the competitiveness of internship, many candidates are having to apply more than once to complete this degree requirement.

 

[PsyDLICSW]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhDMBALCSW
. Also, don’t let PsyDs fool you by putting themselves on the same level with PhDs. PsyD programs are relatively new to the scene (1970s) and not until recently were they excluded from the APA. Critics, including many PhDs claim that these schools don't properly train their students in science-based approaches to therapy. That is, because their one year dissertation is a fraction of what it takes to complete a dissertation in a PhD program. We’re talking three to eight years post master level coursework in a PhD program. In 2003, the late Donald Peterson, father of the PsyD movement, reconsidered what he had created: In an article in the American Psychologist, he termed the programs' high acceptance rates and low licensing scores "a dangerous situation."

I disagree that all PsyD programs do not properly train their students. The free standing schools that operate more like a business than a graduate school make PsyD programs look bad. I am currently in a University-based PsyD program that offers compeditive funding opportunites. I do not have to take out any loans and my PsyD program requires courses in research methods, statistics, and experimental design. Although I don't have to take as many hours in these courses as a PhD candidate would, I am getting the research expereince that prepares me for critical evaluation of the clinical psychology/psychotherapy literature as a competent clinican (as opposed to a researcher or professor). I have to do a dissertation and although it will not take me years to complete, I still have to gain IRB approval, write an exhaustive review of the literature, and perform quantatative data analysis. I chose to attend a PsyD program because I want to be trained as a clinician as oppose to a researcher. I think that making general judgements about all PsyD programs without evaluating all the "evidence" out there is unprofessional.

 

[PsychBoxe]

It is beneficial to be extremely well researched in the PsyD/PhD or MSW, MFT arena before choosing a graduate program. As a PsyD student, I find that what will set me apart from Master's level practitioners is the training I will receive in assessment, supervision, and the advanced seminars/practica I will take in neuropsychology and psychopharmacology. I believe that if some PsyD students are not cognizant of what steps they need to take in order to fully separate themselves from Master's level clinicians, their careers may face underemployment. If front-line therapy is all one wants to do, there is no reason to pursue a PsyD. If one is interested in conducting therapy in addition to testing and assessment, supervision, teaching (in certain arenas), and consulting, go for a PsyD.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

...I know that there are many very viable paths to 6 figure incomes, even salaries, in clinical psychology, even run of the mill type paths. But, you can also fall through the cracks (depending on how you look at it) and not differentiate much from masters level providers. In fact, i think there are situations where masters level providers are preferable to doctoral level providers. These aren't high paying situations, but they are still plentiful. I think, as a doctoral level provider, you're in trouble if you're applying for jobs that specify something like, MSW or Phd/psyd, or if you're working alongside masters level providers performing the same function as you are. To me, this is an underutilization of degree. I see some confusion/distortion from people with regards to diverging pathways in these fields. Some of that might be due to access. For example, I don't know or work with any social workers (or psyd holders for that matter; know them but don't work with them). I figure this may not be unusual among others like me (in similar career paths), which would obscure this path from the mental set of "psychology" for masters level providers that regularly encounter a different kind of psychologist.

I have seen this in generalist settings (CMHC, private practice, etc), and it is a disturbing trend. Many people shrug it off by saying, "I'm not competing for those jobs, who cares?", but that impacts our viability as a profession. Clouding the waters is great for mid-levels because their salaries increase, but it is bad for us because it will continue to drag down the average clinician salary in those settings. I'm sure that sounds protectionistic, but clinical psychologists are far more than therapists, and we need to better assert our training and expertise.

 

[jessalynne]

It is beneficial to be extremely well researched in the PsyD/PhD or MSW, MFT arena before choosing a graduate program. As a PsyD student, I find that what will set me apart from Master's level practitioners is the training I will receive in assessment, supervision, and the advanced seminars/practica I will take in neuropsychology and psychopharmacology. I believe that if some PsyD students are not cognizant of what steps they need to take in order to fully separate themselves from Master's level clinicians, their careers may face underemployment. If front-line therapy is all one wants to do, there is no reason to pursue a PsyD. If one is interested in conducting therapy in addition to testing and assessment, supervision, teaching (in certain arenas), and consulting, go for a PsyD.

Not sure what you mean by supervision here ... LCSWs can provide supervision to LMSWs working towards the LCSW degree in the state of NY. It's not a profit-generating business, because most don't charge or charge vey little, but supervision does exist. The demand is great for LMSWs going for the LCSW license.

 

[Savagebee]

I agree. I'd like to see that stop.

I see that a lot at the VA in a neighboring city. Its part of what has been turning me off about pursuing a PhD after my masters is done. Im hoping the PhDs and PsyDs get paid more, but its the gov and if the can pay someone less to do the same thing Id imagine they would.

On a side note, at least here in OK, if you have a BSW with a fair GPA you can go through an MSW at OU in a year.

So that tells me the Fed Gov in OK views a PhD and a one year accelerated Masters as equal. Pretty lousy for job opps IMO

 

[slinger]

I see that a lot at the VA in a neighboring city. Its part of what has been turning me off about pursuing a PhD after my masters is done. Im hoping the PhDs and PsyDs get paid more, but its the gov and if the can pay someone less to do the same thing Id imagine they would.

On a side note, at least here in OK, if you have a BSW with a fair GPA you can go through an MSW at OU in a year.

So that tells me the Fed Gov in OK views a PhD and a one year accelerated Masters as equal. Pretty lousy for job opps IMO

I must be somewhat new to this one year MSW stuff, that sounds kind of weird. Someone else mentioned it on another thread. Who am I to say if it is good or not. I'm sure they keep you busy. If the Federal Government is advertising LSCSW or PhD Psychologist positions (either or positions), then I would be interested to see what exactly they were wanting done within the positions description? Only psychotherapy? I agree with most that this is an odd trend. Albeit, good for guys like me, bad for the PhD/PsyD.

I think an approach to conceptualizing this, is the reason why they would equate the professions? PhD Psychologists and PsyD's alike sometimes have this fantasy that when they graduate, and work for an agency, they will be employing all their skills from training. Not the case. Maybe the job description only calls for certain tasks to be completed.

I'll be honest, if I had to pick between one or the other of equally qualified and experienced people (LSCSW vs. PhD Psychologist), I would pick the psychologist, especially if I got to pay them the same. It just goes to show where the field is heading if the federal government is already doing this.

 

[O Gurl]

I must be somewhat new to this one year MSW stuff, that sounds kind of weird. Someone else mentioned it on another thread. Who am I to say if it is good or not. I'm sure they keep you busy. If the Federal Government is advertising LSCSW or PhD Psychologist positions (either or positions), then I would be interested to see what exactly they were wanting done within the positions description? Only psychotherapy? I agree with most that this is an odd trend. Albeit, good for guys like me, bad for the PhD/PsyD.

I think an approach to conceptualizing this, is the reason why they would equate the professions? PhD Psychologists and PsyD's alike sometimes have this fantasy that when they graduate, and work for an agency, they will be employing all their skills from training. Not the case. Maybe the job description only calls for certain tasks to be completed.

I'll be honest, if I had to pick between one or the other of equally qualified and experienced people (LSCSW vs. PhD Psychologist), I would pick the psychologist, especially if I got to pay them the same. It just goes to show where the field is heading if the federal government is already doing this.

I agree with you. The nature/duties of the position are important. This is why I feel like psychologists who:
1) only want to do therapy (no research)
2) have no interest in specialization
3) pursue a PsyD, particularly from stand-alone professional schools

Are setting themselves up to go head-to-head with master's level clinicians for jobs. This certainly is not good for the PsyD, however, I do not know if this is good for the LCSW either. Like you said, the employer might be jazzed at the thought of hiring a "Dr" for the same pay as a master's level professional. So it sucks for everyone. The PsyD gets a low-paying job while shouldering $150-$200k in debt, the LCSW is out of a job, and PhD's have the going rate for our profession compromised.

 

[slinger]

I agree with you. The nature/duties of the position are important. This is why I feel like psychologists who:
1) only want to do therapy (no research)
2) have no interest in specialization
3) pursue a PsyD, particularly from stand-alone professional schools

Are setting themselves up to go head-to-head with master's level clinicians for jobs. This certainly is not good for the PsyD, however, I do not know if this is good for the LCSW either. Like you said, the employer might be jazzed at the thought of hiring a "Dr" for the same pay as a master's level professional. So it sucks for everyone. The PsyD gets a low-paying job while shouldering $150-$200k in debt, the LCSW is out of a job, and PhD's have the going rate for our profession compromised.

I'm glad you and I could see eye to eye on something.

I totally agree with you. Moral of the story:

If you just want to practice psychotherapy, probably not the best idea to get the big Doc degrees. Like O Gurl said, you will be going head to head with masters clinicians. At the end of the day in our commerce driven society, "best bang for the buck is the national motto".