Antibiotics help?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

username456789

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
4,672
Reaction score
9,710
We're in our bugs and drugs unit, but we're doing drugs first (before learning the bugs). I'm having trouble keeping all these abx straight!

Anyone with some good tips? The MOA's are generally pretty straightforward, but then there's spectrum of activity (which is really hard to conceptualize since I don't know much about the bugs yet), adverse reactions, pharmacokinetics, resistance, contraindications, etc.

Members don't see this ad.
 
That's a great start, thanks!

One question . . . can't all 2nd generation (or at least most) cephalosporins cover anaerobes? At least, according to CMMRS.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Not sure, I'm kind of just posting stuff that we just learned in school and had an exam on. I found the information on antibiotics to be so confusing in all the texts. I think cephalosporins are so low on the list for use against anaerobes that it probably doesn't matter anyways. ;)



Haha, good deal. Thanks again, I appreciate the effort!
 
We're in our bugs and drugs unit, but we're doing drugs first (before learning the bugs). I'm having trouble keeping all these abx straight!

Anyone with some good tips? The MOA's are generally pretty straightforward, but then there's spectrum of activity (which is really hard to conceptualize since I don't know much about the bugs yet), adverse reactions, pharmacokinetics, resistance, contraindications, etc.



I'm a PharmD student, and I'm planning to specialize in infectious disease. Let me know what you need to cover and I'll try to help you out.
 
I'm a PharmD student, and I'm planning to specialize in infectious disease. Let me know what you need to cover and I'll try to help you out.


Basically, everything that was listed above. We're covering:

TMP-SMX
Quinolones/Fluoroqunolones
Rifamycins
Aminoglycosides
Tetracyclines
Glycycylclines
Macrolides
Lincosamides
Oxazolidinides
Streptogrammins
Mupiricin
Imidazolids
All PCNs/B-lactam drugs


And pretty much the full gauntlet as far as what we need to know: Names (I can do alright with that) of the specific drugs, MOA, resistance, spectrum of coverage, basic pharmacodynamics/kinetics, adverse reactions, clinical use, contraindications.

So it's a lot to me! Not sure where to start . . . .
 
Basically, everything that was listed above. We're covering:

TMP-SMX
Quinolones/Fluoroqunolones
Rifamycins
Aminoglycosides
Tetracyclines
Glycycylclines
Macrolides
Lincosamides
Oxazolidinides
Streptogrammins
Mupiricin
Imidazolids
All PCNs/B-lactam drugs


And pretty much the full gauntlet as far as what we need to know: Names (I can do alright with that) of the specific drugs, MOA, resistance, spectrum of coverage, basic pharmacodynamics/kinetics, adverse reactions, clinical use, contraindications.

So it's a lot to me! Not sure where to start . . . .


Not a problem

I'll start with the fluoroquinolones since these are my favorites. As part of my PhD thesis I have been working on a novel fluoroquinolone resistance efflux pump.

Fluoroquinolones are a broad spectrum antimicrobials which function by inhibiting DNA gyrase and topoisomerase IV. Because humans do not produce DNA gyrase and topoisomerase IV human DNA remains unaffected. It may be a little off topic but all antibiotics but fluoroquinolones have also been shown to cause the formation of OH* (that's a hydroxy-radical :-( - I forgot I don't have chemdraw on this forum). It appears this hydroxy radical causes additional DNA damage to the microbe-thus making fluoroquinolones the efficient (microbe) killing machine that they are.
Also it appears that fluoroquinolones have some specificity of targets with regards to gram positive and gram negative pathogens. That is to say in a gram negative pathogen the drug inhibits DNA gyrase the majority of the time, and conversely it inhibits topoisomerase IV for the majority of the time as well.

Basically what happens is the DNA is trying to replicate, so you've got DNA gyrase or topoIV on the DNA strans witht he replication fork, and your fluoroquinolone just blocks the the gyrase against the DNA and blocks the replication fork. Shortly thereafter the cell dies.

Based on the medical students I've worked with- I've found that a lot of medical schools try to make you think that a single resistance mechanism is responsible for the headache resistance causes. That's not always true (otherwise I'd be out of a job lol).

One of the most significant mechanisms of resistance (as one would expect) is a mutation in the target enzyme. In fact there is a region of bacterial DNA which we have termed "the quinolone resistance determining region." These mutations tend to cause the enzyme to be impervious to the drug-(if you put some sunglasses on the enzyme the drug gets confused and cant' do anything).

Another major mechanism of resistance to fluoroquinolones is the NorA fluoroquinolone resistance efflux protein. NorA (which if I remember right is short for norafloxacin resistance protein A) is a multi-drug efflux pump. It is driven by the production of a proton gradient. (In fact one thing you can do if you get a strain with NorA is to give them a fluoroquinolone with a proton pump inhibitor like prilosec to through off the proton gradiant). -Note on this last trick I'm assuming that you are not giving an oral dosage form.

Another mechanism of resistance (which I personally was only aware of 2 days ago) is a protein called the qnrB protein. Its set with the SOS system. Basically the SOS system is exactly what it sounds like. The bacteria have a set of genes all in a row that they turn on whenever they think they're about to die (such as when cipro enters the cell). One of the genes that gets turned on this way is qnrB. The qnrB protein runs around the cell real quick and finds the DNA gyrase or topoisomerase IV before the cipro or other quinolone can find it, and it acts basically like a body gaurd. It prevents the cipro from binding to its target.


Ok as far as spectrum goes I love the fluoroquinolones because its an indiscriminant killer in the microbial world. It doesn't care if your gram positive or gram negative. If you're a bacteria, it'll kick your door down and start playing with your topoIV and DNA gyrase.

Generally speaking it is very common to use fluoroquinolones for Gonorrhea E. coli, UTI, and a number of other pathogens. In 1999 we used it quite a bit for community acquired S. aureus, but this had real disadvantages in that the blood fluoroquinolone concentration does not seem to stay high for a really long time. In conditions like MRSA induced sepsis-this was a real disadvantage! The bugs would be exposed just long enough to develop resistance. Then we noticed the trend that soon after some S. aureus strains developed resistance to fluoroquinolones resistance to methicillin wasn't far behind. But before long MRSA became more common- which once it gets to that point you've really only got vanco and a few other drugs that only an ID doctor can perscribe. Since then fluoroquinolones started to be benched when it came to MRSA infections. But more recently newer fluoroquinolones are being develope for the explicit purpose of targeting MRSA! These drugs keep up their blood concentration just as well as we would hope, and it seems they have some unique structural features. I originally thought these were "me too drugs" (that is a drug that a company develops with a slight difference from a drug already on the market so they can get around patents and those pesky lawyers), but apparently these additional structural features actually do stuff. They may increase the lipophilicity of the drug. This could be good on S. aureus because they tend to have a rather thick matrix surrounding the cells (I want to say its a glycosaminoglycan matrix, but I don't want to stear you wrong so I'll double check that). These structural features may also help the drugs get past biofilms (which can be a resistance mechanism in and of itself). When a thick enough film develops around the microbes it is difficult for the drugs to get in. One of my buddies has spent years trying to find a way to get around those things.

I'm not sure if this is enough info or too much info or what, so I'll post this and wait for your apply, and I'll bulk up the info or slim it down as you find appropriate for your individual class.

I will look up some more references for the other stuff. The fluoroquinolones I know off the top of my head because I am working on a dual PhD at UNC Chapel Hill on mechanisms of fluoroquinolone resistance in S. aureus (and ways to circumvent the problems they cause).

Also I'm just currious, but would you guys be interested in starting a pharmacology forum or an infectious disease forum in conjunction with the pharmacy side of SDN. Personally I think we could have a lot of fun with it.

Well its almost 2 PM and I haven't had lunch yet, so I'm gonna grab a bite to eat and see what you guys think

Cheers,

Zach :)
 
Last edited:
Like I said, information on antibiotics is slightly ambiguous and contradictory depending on where you look. The absolute most important thing to do is to remember what you are taught. The information above is what I was taught at my school (vanderbilt), so that's what I went with. When it comes time for boards, I'll stick w/ first aid.

This is true. But you have to remember that medicine, pharmacology, and indeed science in general is not a vacuum. It is a dynamic process that's always changing. Pathogens are starting to evolve new mechanisms of resistance and newer antibiotics are being developed.

I'm guessing they don't want you to read every journal article coming and going on the subject. That would take up all of your time, and is for all practical purposes completely unnecessary.

I have a few sources I would recommend for drug information:

-Facts and Comparisons (I haven't used this one much myself)

-Lexi-Comp (this is a really good source and has drug information broken down by category such as indication, dosage, off label use, experimental indications).

Micromedex (I included the link)- This is hands down the most comprehensive and probably the best drug reference that I use. It has everything from pharmacokinetics, pharmacodynamics, indication, and more. But its very advantage are what makes it such a pain to use. Where better to hide a tree than in a forest.

Also most of these have an application that you can add to your blackberry or iphone. My pharmaceutical care lab prof. said that there's a really good one for mobile devices made by micromedex that is free, and a few other ones also exist that I think are around one or two hundred dollars.
 
Originally Posted by virie
"Antibiotics that have no Gram- coverage . . .
(4) Tetracyclines (GP anaerobes only)"


Note that Tetracyclines have plenty of G- coverage.

Mnemonic:
"VACUUM THe BedRoom"
V.cholerae, Acne, Chlamydia, Ureaplasma Urealyticum, M.pneumoniae,
Tularemia, H. Pyloru
B.burgdorferi, Rickettsia


Tetracyclines (namely Doxyclicine) are a nice go-to in outpatient and ER medicine when you have skin infections (particularly MRSA), community acquired pneumonia (they are second line to macrolides), many STDs, most zoonotics, and just a great choice when you just don't what the hec you are looking at.

Simply put, I love Doxy. I sprinkle it on my cereal in the morning and chew it like candy in the movie theater.

Better not let the bugs get to used to it..... though it would be kinda fun to design a new drug.
 
Originally Posted by virie
"Antibiotics that have no Gram- coverage . . .
(4) Tetracyclines (GP anaerobes only)"


Note that Tetracyclines have plenty of G- coverage.

Mnemonic:
"VACUUM THe BedRoom"
V.cholerae, Acne, Chlamydia, Ureaplasma Urealyticum, M.pneumoniae,
Tularemia, H. Pyloru
B.burgdorferi, Rickettsia


Tetracyclines (namely Doxyclicine) are a nice go-to in outpatient and ER medicine when you have skin infections (particularly MRSA), community acquired pneumonia (they are second line to macrolides), many STDs, most zoonotics, and just a great choice when you just don't what the hec you are looking at.

Simply put, I love Doxy. I sprinkle it on my cereal in the morning and chew it like candy in the movie theater.

Better not let the bugs get to used to it..... though it would be kinda fun to design a new drug. :p
 
This is true. But you have to remember that medicine, pharmacology, and indeed science in general is not a vacuum. It is a dynamic process that's always changing. Pathogens are starting to evolve new mechanisms of resistance and newer antibiotics are being developed.

I'm guessing they don't want you to read every journal article coming and going on the subject. That would take up all of your time, and is for all practical purposes completely unnecessary.

I have a few sources I would recommend for drug information:

-Facts and Comparisons (I haven't used this one much myself)

-Lexi-Comp (this is a really good source and has drug information broken down by category such as indication, dosage, off label use, experimental indications).

Micromedex (I included the link)- This is hands down the most comprehensive and probably the best drug reference that I use. It has everything from pharmacokinetics, pharmacodynamics, indication, and more. But its very advantage are what makes it such a pain to use. Where better to hide a tree than in a forest.

Also most of these have an application that you can add to your blackberry or iphone. My pharmaceutical care lab prof. said that there's a really good one for mobile devices made by micromedex that is free, and a few other ones also exist that I think are around one or two hundred dollars.


I agree that Micromedex is the best. It is referenced too. Facts and Comparision is pretty good also. I just used it on my rotation this month.

I highly recommend adding something like this to your toolbox for a med student, resident, or attending. It where the pharms get most of their info for basic stuff.
 
Lots of good info in this thread :thumbup:


By the way would any of you guys be interested in starting an infectious disease forum on here? I think it would be cool. I just wanted to get some feedback to see what you guys think.
 
Top