Any advice on how to deal with my lab dilemma?

[Alakazam123]

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Here's a jot dot summary of what's going on:

- Joined about 3 months ago because the research was cool. The PI was also incredibly nice and encouraging.

- Over the summer, worked my ass off, often sacrificing MCAT study time. I'd be working till 8 pm most days, while the post-doc would leave around 6:00ish

Fast forward to now...three months later...

- I have learned jacks***

- The post-doc has basically been completely useless when it comes to teaching me anything. He does one of the following:

1. Tell me he's going to show me something and then, not show me by delaying it till the nth moment.

2. Tell me he's going to show me something and then, give me an unrelated task to keep me distracted while he completes the procedure by himself.

3. Just straight up not showing me.

Another thing that really has made it hard is, the PhD student I was assigned to work with while the post-doc was gone, showed me a procedure, and then told me he had to check to see if there were enough materials for me to repeat the experiment. Guess how long he took?? THREE WEEKS!! THREE GODD*** WEEKS!!!

So, this is another dilemma. I am shown a technique briefly, and just not given a chance to practice it for weeks and sometimes months on end.

WHAT DO I DO??? I have to complete my MA program, and I can't complain to my PI...which brings me to my other question...WHY DOES HE ALWAYS TAKE THEIR SIDE ON EVERYTHING?? When evaluating my progress, he only comments about how I should learn things faster, and never about any inefficiencies on their side.

Sorry, about the rant, but I'd appreciate all help.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

Wow. So much to address.

Here’s my theory: you’re inconveniencing the lab in some way, haven’t asked how to do more in an effecfive way, and have now decided that you’re smarter than a PI, grad student, and postdoc.

There are absolutely ****ty labs. And ****ty mentors. But based on the way you described this, it sounds like maybe you are the problem.

Remember this isn’t about you. Or your medical school application. YOU are working for the lab. YOU require training, which is a significant effort for the lab. It requires time and money. You may be doing things wrong and needing to go behind you to fix it all. That’s the cost of taking on undergrads.

You are NOT entitled. Get that through your head now. That attitude will get you knocked on your ass in medical school, if you manage to get in. When you talk to your PI, you should not be pitting yourself against the other lab workers over something like this. You should find a way to ask how to get more involved, how to do things better, etc. But remember, this lab isn’t about you. And I can almost guarantee you aren’t as smart as you seem to think you are.

If you’re just blowing off steam and aren’t as gross as you’re coming across as, here are some steps and suggestions I have:
1) Attend lab meeting. Get involved. Ask questions if you have them.
2) Read the papers the lab puts out.
3) Be calm with the postdoc- and non accusatory- and ask if there is anything you can do to help out. If you’re doing something wrong. Shadow the way the postdoc is doing the procedure, and try to ask uestions to make sure you do it right.
4) Have a GOOD lab notebook. Take notes of EVERY detail when you get trained on something. While you watch a procedure. Ask a question if you don’t get it.
5) Do more lab chores. You’re not above this. There’s nothing worse than an undergrad who thinks they are above helping out with dishes, labelling, cleaning, etc. If you want to be treated like a member of lab, be a contributing member, even if it is in small ways.

 

[Alakazam123]

Wow. So much to address.

Here’s my theory: you’re inconveniencing the lab in some way, haven’t asked how to do more in an effecfive way, and have now decided that you’re smarter than a PI, grad student, and postdoc.

There are absolutely ****ty labs. And ****ty mentors. But based on the way you described this, it sounds like maybe you are the problem.

Remember this isn’t about you. Or your medical school application. YOU are working for the lab. YOU require training, which is a significant effort for the lab. It requires time and money. You may be doing things wrong and needing to go behind you to fix it all. That’s the cost of taking on undergrads.

You are NOT entitled. Get that through your head now. That attitude will get you knocked on your ass in medical school, if you manage to get in. When you talk to your PI, you should not be pitting yourself against the other lab workers over something like this. You should find a way to ask how to get more involved, how to do things better, etc. But remember, this lab isn’t about you. And I can almost guarantee you aren’t as smart as you seem to think you are.

If you’re just blowing off steam and aren’t as gross as you’re coming across as, here are some steps and suggestions I have:
1) Attend lab meeting. Get involved. Ask questions if you have them.
2) Read the papers the lab puts out.
3) Be calm with the postdoc- and non accusatory- and ask if there is anything you can do to help out. If you’re doing something wrong. Shadow the way the postdoc is doing the procedure, and try to ask uestions to make sure you do it right.
4) Have a GOOD lab notebook. Take notes of EVERY detail when you get trained on something. While you watch a procedure. Ask a question if you don’t get it.
5) Do more lab chores. You’re not above this. There’s nothing worse than an undergrad who thinks they are above helping out with dishes, labelling, cleaning, etc. If you want to be treated like a member of lab, be a contributing member, even if it is in small ways.

With all due respect sir, I apologize if I came off as being entitled, but I am simply frustrated. I also don't appreciate your assumption that I must be messing things up everywhere I go in the lab. I do NOT think that I am better than anybody in the lab. I have not complained to the PI about any members of the lab. Please allow me to explain a little bit:

1. I have attended multiple lab meetings, and attend weekly one-on-one's with my PI. I am never late, and am prepared with all the data/information I need to discuss.

2. I am on good terms with basically everyone in the lab (never had a single argument, etc.)

3. But, even when the PI assigns me to the post-doc, the post-doc does the three things that I listed in the above post.

4. I have never complained about ANY and I mean ANY of the lab members. I've basically kept my mouth shut, and taken the whole blame, apologized for any inconveniences and just moved on.

5. I do try to shadow the post-doc, but he often gives me a different task, and completes the procedure while I am occupied elsewhere. Or, he just keeps delaying it until I have to leave for the day, and then avoids me that way.

Essentially, he made it clear that I'm not learning at a pace that he expects, and he says I need to practice. Here's the problem, in order to practice, I need samples. However, the post-doc explicitly went and told the PI that he does NOT want me to work with his samples because he feels that I am not adequate enough in my skillset.


So, here's essentially the problem: To get better, I have to practice. To practice I need samples. The post-doc won't let me use his samples. Therefore, I can't practice, and I cannot get better.

Recently, I had a problem with cell clumping in my cell culture, and I asked him if he could help me understand how I could do a better job. He just said "let me take a look," and never did anything about it and went about his day.

I asked him how long it takes to synthesize a particular antibody I was assigned to work with, and he just said "just a sec, I need to print something," and he never returned.

I have bent over backward, not complained, and simply accepted any and all blame for my inefficiencies.

Furthermore, working over the summer, I was told by the PI that I can work from 9-5, BUT the post-doc repeatedly made me work till 8pm on multiple days, despite polite requests form my side, telling him that I had an MCAT coming up. He simply did not seem to care.

 

[Alakazam123]

The post-doc also ignores text messages that I send (during 9-5 workday, not after), and there is a huge communication barrier. So, I have no idea when he's coming in for the day, when he is going to be starting a procedure, what exactly he's doing, etc.

He doesn't follow up on my text message when he seems me in person either.

 

[Alakazam123]

Also, I have asked in clever ways to "try to learn more," by working with other members of the lab who openly came out and said they'd like to show me stuff. However, the PI did not let me follow through.

 

[663697]

Recently, I had a problem with cell clumping in my cell culture, and I asked him if he could help me understand how I could do a better job. He just said "let me take a look," and never did anything about it and went about his day.

I asked him how long it takes to synthesize a particular antibody I was assigned to work with, and he just said "just a sec, I need to print something," and he never returned.

I have bent over backward, not complained, and simply accepted any and all blame for my inefficiencies.

Furthermore, working over the summer, I was told by the PI that I can work from 9-5, BUT the post-doc repeatedly made me work till 8pm on multiple days, despite polite requests form my side, telling him that I had an MCAT coming up. He simply did not seem to care.

If I were you, I would persist in asking these questions to the post-doc so that it doesn't seem like you're not staying on top of things.

What is the post-doc's relationship with the PI? Does the PI have issues with the post-doc meeting deadlines, etc?

Talk to the PI and tell him about all the miscommunication, how you're happy to learn new things but haven't been given the opportunity to do so, and find out whether there is any room for you in the lab.

 

[Alakazam123]

If I were you, I would persist in asking these questions to the post-doc so that it doesn't seem like you're not staying on top of things.

What is the post-doc's relationship with the PI? Does the PI have issues with the post-doc meeting deadlines, etc?

Talk to the PI and tell him about all the miscommunication, how you're happy to learn new things but haven't been given the opportunity to do so, and find out whether there is any room for you in the lab.

The post-doc seems to be on good terms with the PI. He's been there longer than me, and his wife also worked in the same lab. So in a sense, he goes way back. So, he's essentially untouchable.

I basically tried to convey the second point to him, but either he didn't get it, or he doesn't really care and basically just told me I need to "learn fast and learn it well the first time." His statement doesn't really help me, because I'm not being given an opportunity to learn anything in the first place.

Not to mention, I tried to cleverly dodge my post-doc by learning extra techniques, and doing more work with other members of the lab, but the PI didn't rubber stamp that, so it basically fizzled out. These people literally came out and offered to show me stuff.

 

[Goro]

Here's a jot dot summary of what's going on:

- Joined about 3 months ago because the research was cool. The PI was also incredibly nice and encouraging.

- Over the summer, worked my ass off, often sacrificing MCAT study time. I'd be working till 8 pm most days, while the post-doc would leave around 6:00ish

Fast forward to now...three months later...

- I have learned jacks***

- The post-doc has basically been completely useless when it comes to teaching me anything. He does one of the following:

1. Tell me he's going to show me something and then, not show me by delaying it till the nth moment.

2. Tell me he's going to show me something and then, give me an unrelated task to keep me distracted while he completes the procedure by himself.

3. Just straight up not showing me.

Another thing that really has made it hard is, the PhD student I was assigned to work with while the post-doc was gone, showed me a procedure, and then told me he had to check to see if there were enough materials for me to repeat the experiment. Guess how long he took?? THREE WEEKS!! THREE GODD*** WEEKS!!!

So, this is another dilemma. I am shown a technique briefly, and just not given a chance to practice it for weeks and sometimes months on end.

WHAT DO I DO??? I have to complete my MA program, and I can't complain to my PI...which brings me to my other question...WHY DOES HE ALWAYS TAKE THEIR SIDE ON EVERYTHING?? When evaluating my progress, he only comments about how I should learn things faster, and never about any inefficiencies on their side.

Sorry, about the rant, but I'd appreciate all help.

Go talk to the PI

 

[eteshoe]

Honestly it seems like a waste of time. You can let the PI know your concerns but if you're just an UG, move on to another lab.

 

[Alakazam123]

Honestly it seems like a waste of time. You can let the PI know your concerns but if you're just an UG, move on to another lab.

I'm an MA student.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

I'm an MA student.

Are you in a position to be able to leave?

 

[Lost In Transcription]

With all due respect sir, I apologize if I came off as being entitled, but I am simply frustrated. I also don't appreciate your assumption that I must be messing things up everywhere I go in the lab. I do NOT think that I am better than anybody in the lab. I have not complained to the PI about any members of the lab. Please allow me to explain a little bit:

1. I have attended multiple lab meetings, and attend weekly one-on-one's with my PI. I am never late, and am prepared with all the data/information I need to discuss.

2. I am on good terms with basically everyone in the lab (never had a single argument, etc.)

3. But, even when the PI assigns me to the post-doc, the post-doc does the three things that I listed in the above post.

4. I have never complained about ANY and I mean ANY of the lab members. I've basically kept my mouth shut, and taken the whole blame, apologized for any inconveniences and just moved on.

5. I do try to shadow the post-doc, but he often gives me a different task, and completes the procedure while I am occupied elsewhere. Or, he just keeps delaying it until I have to leave for the day, and then avoids me that way.

Essentially, he made it clear that I'm not learning at a pace that he expects, and he says I need to practice. Here's the problem, in order to practice, I need samples. However, the post-doc explicitly went and told the PI that he does NOT want me to work with his samples because he feels that I am not adequate enough in my skillset.


So, here's essentially the problem: To get better, I have to practice. To practice I need samples. The post-doc won't let me use his samples. Therefore, I can't practice, and I cannot get better.

Recently, I had a problem with cell clumping in my cell culture, and I asked him if he could help me understand how I could do a better job. He just said "let me take a look," and never did anything about it and went about his day.

I asked him how long it takes to synthesize a particular antibody I was assigned to work with, and he just said "just a sec, I need to print something," and he never returned.

I have bent over backward, not complained, and simply accepted any and all blame for my inefficiencies.

Furthermore, working over the summer, I was told by the PI that I can work from 9-5, BUT the post-doc repeatedly made me work till 8pm on multiple days, despite polite requests form my side, telling him that I had an MCAT coming up. He simply did not seem to care.

Alrighty, so blowing off steam.

I would agree- talk to the PI about this specific list.

 

[Osteosaur]

Worked in a lab for around 5 years before matriculating. Training people is an investment and a lot of people in science are stretched thin and bad at interpersonal stuff. Don't take it personally. Most grad students and post-docs don't like "getting stuck" with a student. Most probably don't trust you and don't have time to train you.

Remember, first, that your goal is medical school. You want a letter, an experience you can talk about, and some sign of productivity. You put in an entire summer and it sounds like you may or may not be close to any of those things, so you need to make an adjustment. I would tactfully (without blaming anyone) explain your concern that you've been putting in a lot of time but have not been able to learn very much. Say that you've had trouble meeting with the post-doc due to time constraints, but would really like to contribute more to the project.

Second, you mentioned you are getting your MA. Are you being paid? Doing a thesis? Putting in a rotation for a class? If you are not being paid you should not be doing grunt work, especially if you're showing up every day and "being made" to stay late. You should not be treated this way. Labs know that students they take on are probably going to be a little clumsy and struggle. They do it anyway because that's their job. If they cannot offer you a learning experience they should not be taking you. We used to poke fun at lazy MSc students in my old lab in private; we never cold-shouldered or belittled them if they showed up and put in an honest effort.

Who said they were hoping you'd learn faster? The post-doc or the PI? I would be very worried about any PI or lab that's so un-supportive that they see you're putting in the time and aren't willing to even train you.

 

[Robin-jay]

Are you in a position to be able to leave?

Leaving graduate school would look very poor for admission committees.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

Leaving graduate school would look very poor for admission committees.

No, I mean switching labs. 3 months into a program wouldn’t lose much time.

 

[Alakazam123]

Worked in a lab for around 5 years before matriculating. Training people is an investment and a lot of people in science are stretched thin and bad at interpersonal stuff. Don't take it personally. Most grad students and post-docs don't like "getting stuck" with a student. Most probably don't trust you and don't have time to train you.

Remember, first, that your goal is medical school. You want a letter, an experience you can talk about, and some sign of productivity. You put in an entire summer and it sounds like you may or may not be close to any of those things, so you need to make an adjustment. I would tactfully (without blaming anyone) explain your concern that you've been putting in a lot of time but have not been able to learn very much. Say that you've had trouble meeting with the post-doc due to time constraints, but would really like to contribute more to the project.

Second, you mentioned you are getting your MA. Are you being paid? Doing a thesis? Putting in a rotation for a class? If you are not being paid you should not be doing grunt work, especially if you're showing up every day and "being made" to stay late. You should not be treated this way. Labs know that students they take on are probably going to be a little clumsy and struggle. They do it anyway because that's their job. If they cannot offer you a learning experience they should not be taking you. We used to poke fun at lazy MSc students in my old lab in private; we never cold-shouldered or belittled them if they showed up and put in an honest effort.

Who said they were hoping you'd learn faster? The post-doc or the PI? I would be very worried about any PI or lab that's so un-supportive that they see you're putting in the time and aren't willing to even train you.

The PI said so. Also, I'm not being paid unfortunately. When I did bring up what you stated in bold, he sort of just took their side and glossed over it. I will never understand why PI's are so biased towards their own to the point where PhD students and post-doc can basically behave this way, and get away with it.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

The PI said so. Also, I'm not being paid unfortunately. When I did bring up what you stated in bold, he sort of just took their side and glossed over it. I will never understand why PI's are so biased towards their own to the point where PhD students and post-doc can basically behave this way, and get away with it.

I don’t think what you’re alleging is typical. This is your first lab position no?
Again, can you switch labs?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I have said before that Lab Culture can be as cut throat as an episode of Survivor. Having said that, but digested the length and breadth of OPs post, I believe OP is contributing in some way to how they are being treated. You have to find a way to get along.
Agree with speaking to PI, again. Would ask PI for an evaluation and be more concerned about OPs performance and how to improve, rather than being critical of more established lab members. If PI gives same evaluation, then work harder, change how you approach people. Doctors have to deal with difficult people, patients and other Doctors. Be patient, and polite. If someone doesn't respond to a text immediately, politely text them again later. If they dont respond, get up and find them. If not in lab, find the PI. Remember it's not always what you say, it's how you say it. Good luck and best wishes

 

[Osteosaur]

The PI said so. Also, I'm not being paid unfortunately. When I did bring up what you stated in bold, he sort of just took their side and glossed over it. I will never understand why PI's are so biased towards their own to the point where PhD students and post-doc can basically behave this way, and get away with it.

This isn't really about whose playing favorites. Maybe the post-doc's time is just better spent on those tasks he is blowing you off for? He sounds like a jerk but it is what it is. The first obligations the PI has are to generate data to get grants, and get PhD students graduated. You don't fit into that scheme too well as an MA student.

The fact is this lab does not seem to be working out for you. Can you switch, or do you need to do your thesis project here?

Is there any indication they appreciate your working long hours, even if you're a bit clumsy with some techniques?

 

[Alakazam123]

This isn't really about whose playing favorites. Maybe the post-doc's time is just better spent on those tasks he is blowing you off for? He sounds like a jerk but it is what it is. The first obligations the PI has are to generate data to get grants, and get PhD students graduated. You don't fit into that scheme too well as an MA student.

The fact is this lab does not seem to be working out for you. Can you switch, or do you need to do your thesis project here?

Is there any indication they appreciate your working long hours, even if you're a bit clumsy with some techniques?

The thing is, there are a few highlights to the MA program in my school:

1. You are not required to generate data or have a thesis. However, if you do so, more power to you basically.

2. You can choose to complete the program in 1 year or in 1.5 years (I am doing the latter)

3. The bare minimum you need to do is basically have a project idea which is detailed in explanation, and you present that to a committee. However, if you go all out and publish a paper, once again, more power to you basically.

The couple highlights to the lab are the following:

1. The PI is not rude or arrogant.

2. The PI has let me create my own project (which I have set up)

The problem lies in the fact that I need to hone in on certain skills to be able to fully execute my project, and these skills are hard for me to grasp for the reasons I mentioned in the previous posts.

 

[Alakazam123]

So it's a weird

I have said before that Lab Culture can be as cut throat as an episode of Survivor. Having said that, but digested the length and breadth of OPs post, I believe OP is contributing in some way to how they are being treated. You have to find a way to get along.
Agree with speaking to PI, again. Would ask PI for an evaluation and be more concerned about OPs performance and how to improve, rather than being critical of more established lab members. If PI gives same evaluation, then work harder, change how you approach people. Doctors have to deal with difficult people, patients and other Doctors. Be patient, and polite. If someone doesn't respond to a text immediately, politely text them again later. If they dont respond, get up and find them. If not in lab, find the PI. Remember it's not always what you say, it's how you say it. Good luck and best wishes

There's not much to evaluate when I'm constantly being blown off. I have kept my mouth shut, and did not say anything. I am sick of people just blaming it on me. I am growing tired of putting up with this treatment. However, I know as an MA student, that I can't complain.

I have NEVER and I repeat NEVER confronted any member of the lab. I politely asked several tiems over the summer if I could go home at 5 pm, to the post-doc (mind you, the PI approved this already). However, the post-doc kept giving me things to do until about 8 pm on a daily basis for about 3 weeks until he left for vacation.

After the summer was over, the post-doc basically just blew me off. He'd tell the PI that he'd show me something, or he'd tell me that he'd teach me something and he'd either just delay it until I left for the day, or he'd just not teach me at all.

When I ask him what I should study up on for the week, he does not give me a straight answer, so I have no idea what procedures he'll be doing and when he'll be doing them. I have NO WAY of preparing ahead of time when there is NO SCHEDULE to consult. When I ask him what time an experiment will be starting he gives me a random time, and 9 times out of 10, he DOES NOT start at that time. He delayed something for about 3 hours once, and I had to leave by that point in time.

With all due respect sir, I have endured this for 4 months, and I have been more than polite to everyone in the lab. I have never complained, raised my voice, pointed fingers. I show up to every meeting on time, present whatever I have in a concise manner, and carry on with my day. There's only so much I can do!!

 

[Osteosaur]

A project of your own is quite different, and if you know where you're going I wouldn't walk away so fast then. How close are you to finishing once you learn these new techniques?

Go talk to your PI and try to think up an alternative method, or set a date to learn what you need to. Mention that you don't really have practice supplies. Research takes time.

 

[Alakazam123]

This isn't really about whose playing favorites. Maybe the post-doc's time is just better spent on those tasks he is blowing you off for? He sounds like a jerk but it is what it is. The first obligations the PI has are to generate data to get grants, and get PhD students graduated. You don't fit into that scheme too well as an MA student.

The fact is this lab does not seem to be working out for you. Can you switch, or do you need to do your thesis project here?

Is there any indication they appreciate your working long hours, even if you're a bit clumsy with some techniques?

Also the long hours over the summer were so that I could generate data for the post-doc's project, and in turn be "trained." However, even though the PI had told me that I could work 9-5 because I had my MCAT coming up, the post-doc basically disregarded my request and kept giving me tasks that went on late.

 

[JeSuisUnDoc]

Also the long hours over the summer were so that I could generate data for the post-doc's project, and in turn be "trained." However, even though the PI had told me that I could work 9-5 because I had my MCAT coming up, the post-doc basically disregarded my request and kept giving me tasks that went on late.

I really disagree with the first comment, I don’t think you’ve done anything wrong.
From what I understand, the PI thinks you’re getting trained because the post doc and PhD tell him that they showed you something when they didn’t. Be annoying with them then. Ask them to show you something, if they go somewhere else to print, follow them and ask them again and again until they show. Do NOT wait for them to come back for you.

If this doesn’t work, what I can say is have an appointment with your PI and talk to him without throwing others under the bus since he has a good relationship with them.


If this doesn’t work, and he’s being a jerk, ruuuuuuun. This could be your first choice if it’s possible to do so now.

You’re part of their lab, I don’t get why you’re “bothering” them.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Osteosaur]

You need to slow down. You're getting too lost in the weeds of who did what and why it wasn't your fault. The lab treated you poorly, and is clearly not interested in helping you develop.

Are you close to finishing your project on time? And can you set up another project elsewhere if not? That is what this boils down to and that is all that matters.

 

[Alakazam123]

You need to slow down. You're getting too lost in the weeds of who did what and why it wasn't your fault. The lab treated you poorly, and is clearly not interested in helping you develop.

Are you close to finishing your project on time? And can you set up another project elsewhere if not? That is what this boils down to and that is all that matters.

I agree, I'm sorry. It's just been really frustrating. I'm torn between liking the PI and the fact that he's given me creative control/choice over the project, and the fact that the lab members he assigns me to consistently blow me off.

Funnily enough, I'm on really good terms with a couple others who've offered to help me out. However, when I asked the PI if I may shadow them, he was reluctant to let me do so.

 

[PreMedStudent55555]

Just leave. I learned this in my second lab experience with a completely incapable postdoc. Leave if you're unhappy. It's not worth your time and sanity. I've read so many posts with premeds debating on whether to leave because they're scared of how it'll look on their CV and whatever. To be frank, medical schools could care less. If you phrase it correctly, no one cares. Just say you went to pursue other things. Also focus on your MCAT. You sacrificed a summer of studying. Don't do that again. A solid MCAT score will do more for you than any amount of hours or publications that lab will ever give you and the way you describe it, you'll be getting zero from that lab.

Also, don't blame yourself. A lot of the commenters here are blaming you. I don't know whether it's your fault but I know what it's like to not have a good relationship with a boss especially a postdoc mentor. If it's not working out, don't salvage it. Don't go the extra mile for that. Go the extra mile for your grades or your MCAT.

Research is not a stable field. You're not even getting payed for the stress you are going through and you're just being used as cheap labor. On top of that, you're unhappy and getting unneeded stress from this job. I would've quit after the first month to be honest. Your goal is medical school. Not to be a lab volunteer.

 

[eteshoe]

I'm an MA student.

Sorry I missed that.

Just leave. I learned this in my second lab experience with a completely incapable postdoc. Leave if you're unhappy. It's not worth your time and sanity. I've read so many posts with premeds debating on whether to leave because they're scared of how it'll look on their CV and whatever. To be frank, medical schools could care less. If you phrase it correctly, no one cares. Just say you went to pursue other things. Also focus on your MCAT. You sacrificed a summer of studying. Don't do that again. A solid MCAT score will do more for you than any amount of hours or publications that lab will ever give you and the way you describe it, you'll be getting zero from that lab.

Also, don't blame yourself. A lot of the commenters here are blaming you. I don't know whether it's your fault but I know what it's like to not have a good relationship with a boss especially a postdoc mentor. If it's not working out, don't salvage it. Don't go the extra mile for that. Go the extra mile for your grades or your MCAT.

Research is not a stable field. You're not even getting payed for the stress you are going through and you're just being used as cheap labor. On top of that, you're unhappy and getting unneeded stress from this job. I would've quit after the first month to be honest. Your goal is medical school. Not to be a lab volunteer.

Agree with the above.

@Alakazam123 unless you are aiming for an MD/PhD program - I still stand by my earlier advice and would move on to another lab. What you've described just makes it seem like the lab is not the best fit for you. I always advice UGs/techs/etc that you don't have to love the science but the lab environment has to be conducive to your success. Even if you love the PI, if you dread going in to work - move on. In the grand scheme of things taking a bit longer to finish your MA doesn't matter. You have to be able to intelligently speak on your research experience and contributions.

Also don't rush your MCAT prep. Sort out your lab situation and then properly study for the exam.

 

[Alakazam123]

Sorry I missed that.



Agree with the above.

@Alakazam123 unless you are aiming for an MD/PhD program - I still stand by my earlier advice and would move on to another lab. What you've described just makes it seem like the lab is not the best fit for you. I always advice UGs/techs/etc that you don't have to love the science but the lab environment has to be conducive to your success. Even if you love the PI, if you dread going in to work - move on. In the grand scheme of things taking a bit longer to finish your MA doesn't matter. You have to be able to intelligently speak on your research experience and contributions.

Also don't rush your MCAT prep. Sort out your lab situation and then properly study for the exam.

You're right. My main goal is to become an MD. Research always seems so fascinating when I read about it, and the papers are amazing. However, my experience thus far has sucked, apart from the PI being nice and giving me my own project from the get go basically.

The downside however, is that I am an MA student, and am expected to be fixed into one particular lab. The PI basically told me "regardless of how you perform, just know you are a part of this lab family, and you have a place here. We'll figure something out."

I'm just not sure if I can find that level of PI elsewhere. So, I'm wondering whether I should try to work with other more helpful people in the lab, or just walk out altogether...

 

[eteshoe]

You're right. My main goal is to become an MD. Research always seems so fascinating when I read about it, and the papers are amazing. However, my experience thus far has sucked, apart from the PI being nice and giving me my own project from the get go basically.

The downside however, is that I am an MA student, and am expected to be fixed into one particular lab. The PI basically told me "regardless of how you perform, just know you are a part of this lab family, and you have a place here. We'll figure something out."

I'm just not sure if I can find that level of PI elsewhere. So, I'm wondering whether I should try to work with other more helpful people in the lab, or just walk out altogether...

The bolded is the academic BS that I would avoid like the plague. I had done an MSc before starting my program (I was a non-trad and had worked for a couple yrs before coming back to school), and I started out in one lab - realized it wasn't the best fit and switched. No one made a big deal. Find another PI, clearly outline your project and support in the lab (do your due diligence and talk to lab members, etc). Then sit your current PI down and explain that for your career prospects you've decided to move on to another lab that closer fit your goals. Be polite, be concise, and be definitive.

 

[Alakazam123]

The bolded is the academic BS that I would avoid like the plague. I had done an MSc before starting my program (I was a non-trad and had worked for a couple yrs before coming back to school), and I started out in one lab - realized it wasn't the best fit and switched. No one made a big deal. Find another PI, clearly outline your project and support in the lab (do your due diligence and talk to lab members, etc). Then sit your current PI down and explain that for your career prospects you've decided to move on to another lab that closer fit your goals. Be polite, be concise, and be definitive.

Wow, I didn't realize there was negative undertones to it. How is his statement negative?

 

[eteshoe]

Wow, I didn't realize there was negative undertones to it. How is his statement negative?

I wouldn't say "negative" more passive-aggressive or essentially "unless it's high priority, I won't do anything about it" or "time will tell but hopefully this issue resolves itself". With most academics, don't expect direct answers or actions unless it can affect a grant or something significant. That is why one has to advocate for themselves. Also never assume your performance doesn't matter, if you need a strong letter from a PI but they only see you as a lukewarm student - how do you figure things will play out?

 

[Alakazam123]

I wouldn't say "negative" more passive-aggressive or essentially "unless it's high priority, I won't do anything about it" or "time will tell but hopefully this issue resolves itself". With most academics, don't expect direct answers or actions unless it can affect a grant or something significant. That is why one has to advocate for themselves. Also never assume your performance doesn't matter, if you need a strong letter from a PI but they only see you as a lukewarm student - how do you figure things will play out?

Alright, here's my childish dream. I can't hold it in.

My dream is not just to become an MD, but a prized researcher who ultimately starts his own biotech company. However, with the way things are going on right now, I am feeling more and more discouraged. If I can't gain skills right now, how will I ever be able to start a biotech company?

And by chance if I collaborate with others when I start the company, what if they are the ones who do all the drug design? The world will never remember me.

Part of me also wants to become an academic physician, doing research in basic science and in medical device research and patenting stuff, etc.

But research just doesn't feel so fun anymore, and all the "bureaucratic" hangups make it so slow and unpleasant...idk what I'll do in the future.

 

[Alakazam123]

Don't get me wrong. I'm always fascinated when I read about a company developing a new drug, etc. However, with the way things are going in my current lab, the path towards becoming a successful researcher doesn't seem so glorious anymore.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

I wouldn't say "negative" more passive-aggressive or essentially "unless it's high priority, I won't do anything about it" or "time will tell but hopefully this issue resolves itself". With most academics, don't expect direct answers or actions unless it can affect a grant or something significant. That is why one has to advocate for themselves. Also never assume your performance doesn't matter, if you need a strong letter from a PI but they only see you as a lukewarm student - how do you figure things will play out?

Would agree

 

[Lost In Transcription]

Don't get me wrong. I'm always fascinated when I read about a company developing a new drug, etc. However, with the way things are going in my current lab, the path towards becoming a successful researcher doesn't seem so glorious anymore.

Definitely isn’t glorious haha!

 

[eteshoe]

Alright, here's my childish dream. I can't hold it in.

My dream is not just to become an MD, but a prized researcher who ultimately starts his own biotech company. However, with the way things are going on right now, I am feeling more and more discouraged. If I can't gain skills right now, how will I ever be able to start a biotech company?

And by chance if I collaborate with others when I start the company, what if they are the ones who do all the drug design? The world will never remember me.

Part of me also wants to become an academic physician, doing research in basic science and in medical device research and patenting stuff, etc.

But research just doesn't feel so fun anymore, and all the "bureaucratic" hangups make it so slow and unpleasant...idk what I'll do in the future.

Don't get me wrong. I'm always fascinated when I read about a company developing a new drug, etc. However, with the way things are going in my current lab, the path towards becoming a successful researcher doesn't seem so glorious anymore.

Hmm so there's a lot to deconstruct from your messages above. I'll try to be as general as I can based on my experiences seeing what a few of the attendings at my institution/PI's in my department (heck even my PI was able to start 2 companies) have been able to do:

1. Prized researchers are generally academics. If one moves into biotech or pharma, there's glory but your name will most likely not stand above the team (unless your a scientific leader/director/section head). Those people do tend to climb the ranks pretty well though.

2. As far as gaining the skills needed to shine and eventually starting your own company based on patenting a technology you developed --> most likely you'd want to do some sort of postdoc training. That means during residency/fellowship (or foregoing it) one would work on really building out your research toolbox while making professional connections to aid in landing a spot at a R1 institute (or whatever type of well funded institute) that supports cutting edge research (since the institute also benefits from spinning off a lot of these types of ventures). Also build your business skills during your training since few physicians or scientists know how to properly start and run their own companies.

3. To be truly novel, team science is almost always gonna be your best bet. That means that you'll provide some expertise and your scientific collaborators will provide the rest (credit will be shared in that case). Few people are experts in everything these days, and it's especially true in biotech/pharma.

4. Unfortunately, "bureaucracy" is everywhere - hospitals, med schools, pharma/biotech -- you can't really avoid it so it's best to learn how the game is played.

5. Being a successful researcher is not a quick process. One has to stay resilient and grind towards it - it may not seem "glorious" but that's how it tends to be. For every successful drug that makes it through pre-clinical and clinical studies, hundreds failed.

Ultimately if you want the fame and to start your own company the formula that I've seen work is: develop some technology/drug, patent it, spin a biotech company out of the institution you're in, push the product to phase 2 clinical trials, wait for big pharma to buy you out, rinse and repeat.

 

[Alakazam123]

Hmm so there's a lot to deconstruct from your messages above. I'll try to be as general as I can based on my experiences seeing what a few of the attendings at my institution/PI's in my department (heck even my PI was able to start 2 companies) have been able to do:

1. Prized researchers are generally academics. If one moves into biotech or pharma, there's glory but your name will most likely not stand above the team (unless your a scientific leader/director/section head). Those people do tend to climb the ranks pretty well though.

2. As far as gaining the skills needed to shine and eventually starting your own company based on patenting a technology you developed --> most likely you'd want to do some sort of postdoc training. That means during residency/fellowship (or foregoing it) one would work on really building out your research toolbox while making professional connections to aid in landing a spot at a R1 institute (or whatever type of well funded institute) that supports cutting edge research (since the institute also benefits from spinning off a lot of these types of ventures). Also build your business skills during your training since few physicians or scientists know how to properly start and run their own companies.

3. To be truly novel, team science is almost always gonna be your best bet. That means that you'll provide some expertise and your scientific collaborators will provide the rest (credit will be shared in that case). Few people are experts in everything these days, and it's especially true in biotech/pharma.

4. Unfortunately, "bureaucracy" is everywhere - hospitals, med schools, pharma/biotech -- you can't really avoid it so it's best to learn how the game is played.

5. Being a successful researcher is not a quick process. One has to stay resilient and grind towards it - it may not seem "glorious" but that's how it tends to be. For every successful drug that makes it through pre-clinical and clinical studies, hundreds failed.

Ultimately if you want the fame and to start your own company the formula that I've seen work is: develop some technology/drug, patent it, spin a biotech company out of the institution you're in, push the product to phase 2 clinical trials, wait for big pharma to buy you out, rinse and repeat.

But I truly wonder if I should just throw in the towel. If research is even for me, and if I should forget about the biotech dream...

 

[eteshoe]

Until you try, I can't answer. There is no shortage of researchers in the biomedical sciences.

 

[Osteosaur]

Alright, here's my childish dream. I can't hold it in.

My dream is not just to become an MD, but a prized researcher who ultimately starts his own biotech company. However, with the way things are going on right now, I am feeling more and more discouraged. If I can't gain skills right now, how will I ever be able to start a biotech company?

And by chance if I collaborate with others when I start the company, what if they are the ones who do all the drug design? The world will never remember me.

Part of me also wants to become an academic physician, doing research in basic science and in medical device research and patenting stuff, etc.

But research just doesn't feel so fun anymore, and all the "bureaucratic" hangups make it so slow and unpleasant...idk what I'll do in the future.

All grownup things are bureaucratic.

I think that you are aiming a bit high there, I'll be honest. For our generation a job that can support a family is hard enough. You're trying to wear a triple crown of businessman, researcher, and physician. Hopefully grad school has allowed you to do a bit of soulsearching:

1) Do you need an MD or DO to do what you want? Medical school is long and hard and you have to make sacrifices.

2) Do you like research? Sometimes you can go months without making much progress, or the company that makes your reagent has a backup and you're treading water. Oftentimes you're begging for money or to be taken seriously. Basic science is hard.

3) You're going to need to deal with jerks and red tape and politics in most worthwhile pursuits. If you want to beaver away in a backroom and do cool science you're not going to get the accolades that come with leadership. Just a pat on the head and maybe a nice paycheck.

4) Do you think you'll see patients, find out what's wrong with them, then do some bench stuff, find a cure, and fix them in a week or so? Because...

Anyway, don't take what happened in this lab personally. All labs are different. You just need to get out of there with what you can and move from your program into the real world. Do what you can to make that happen. Don't worry about mastering that one skill.

 

[Alakazam123]

All grownup things are bureaucratic.

I think that you are aiming a bit high there, I'll be honest. For our generation a job that can support a family is hard enough. You're trying to wear a triple crown of businessman, researcher, and physician. Hopefully grad school has allowed you to do a bit of soulsearching:

1) Do you need an MD or DO to do what you want? Medical school is long and hard and you have to make sacrifices.

2) Do you like research? Sometimes you can go months without making much progress, or the company that makes your reagent has a backup and you're treading water. Oftentimes you're begging for money or to be taken seriously. Basic science is hard.

3) You're going to need to deal with jerks and red tape and politics in most worthwhile pursuits. If you want to beaver away in a backroom and do cool science you're not going to get the accolades that come with leadership. Just a pat on the head and maybe a nice paycheck.

4) Do you think you'll see patients, find out what's wrong with them, then do some bench stuff, find a cure, and fix them in a week or so? Because...

Anyway, don't take what happened in this lab personally. All labs are different. You just need to get out of there with what you can and move from your program into the real world. Do what you can to make that happen. Don't worry about mastering that one skill.

I agree, I guess I'm a bit impractical. I just...*sigh* idk. On the one hand I feel very stimulated and energized whenever I read a new paper with a new discovery. And part of me wishes it were me who were out there publishing. I realize basic science is hard. I honestly don't mind the hard part of it. Sure it's discouraging a bit, but the satisfaction that you get when an experiment finally goes right is very great.

However, I suppose in my current lab I haven't moved the kind of mountains I thought I would, and have ended up feeling dubious about how I can run my own biotech company if I can't really kick a** in research.

Hence, the whole question of whether I should throw in the towel after the MA program. Will I have a chance to improve as a bench researcher in Medical School?

 

[Osteosaur]

Hence, the whole question of whether I should throw in the towel after the MA program. Will I have a chance to improve as a bench researcher in Medical School?

I knew some MD/PhD students who were good bench researchers, back when I worked in a lab. They get 3 years off for bench science.

As a med student? I've been looking at research opportunities myself and most students don't spend more than a few hours a week doing research. Most do chart reviews. Now I'm just 2 months in but I can't really see how to fit a complex project into my schedule. Granted I worked with mice, not cultures, and invitro is faster but its still time consuming.

Before you get yourself into something you may not want to do, how does being a doctor fit into this? if you want TOP NOTCH RESEARCH TRAINING you should become a PhD student. That's what they do. They learn grant-writing, lab techniques, stats...

 

[Robin-jay]

No, I mean switching labs. 3 months into a program wouldn’t lose much time.

Then I doubt medical admissions will know or care about that as much. However, I feel like that somehow may look negative to your own science department, but if you have to then you should! Its a much better alternative than not being about to get along with your PI for "years".

 

[Alakazam123]

I knew some MD/PhD students who were good bench researchers, back when I worked in a lab. They get 3 years off for bench science.

As a med student? I've been looking at research opportunities myself and most students don't spend more than a few hours a week doing research. Most do chart reviews. Now I'm just 2 months in but I can't really see how to fit a complex project into my schedule. Granted I worked with mice, not cultures, and invitro is faster but its still time consuming.

Before you get yourself into something you may not want to do, how does being a doctor fit into this? if you want TOP NOTCH RESEARCH TRAINING you should become a PhD student. That's what they do. They learn grant-writing, lab techniques, stats...

Perhaps I'm quitting too early. Maybe I'm just learning a bit slow. And, I haven't explored the computational side of research. That may be a better fit for me, for all I know.

 

[Alakazam123]

@eteshoe , this is an update on my situation. Things have not gotten better. When evaluating me, he basically gave me a "B+." He said however, that he wouldn't give me a B+ on my transcript, because he doesn't want to hurt my chances of getting into medical school.

I was doing an ELISA (idk if you've heard of the technique). The post-doc showed me for about a month. After this point he lost patience and the rest is as I mentioned in the details. Ultimately, the PI graded me based off of this evaluation...

I think I made two mistakes:

1) I picked a massive lab of about 20-21 people where a majority of the people have had previous industry experience and require very little hand holding.

2) I came up with my own project idea, which unfortunately my PI has no background in. Thus he asked me to find other professors we could consult with before starting up. This, coupled with his occasional absences has lost me about 2ish months of time.

3) Per week my PI only has about 15 minutes to meet with me due to the size of the lab.

The one highlight to all of this, is that he's sort of "given me an out." We talked a little yesterday about my future plans and prospects and I mentioned to him that the MA program that I'm doing does not require any sort of data or thesis per se. So, ultimately he said I could try to finish up my project this semester itself and be done, and just work on a presentation over the summer.