Any FM physicians doing surgical OB care to share what they earn?

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SansaStarkMD

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I love the idea of surgical OB, but is the compensation worth it? How often do you guys take call? Are you able to get privileges at suburban hospitals in towns with at least 30,000 people? How many c sections do you need per month to maintain privileges? Thanks!

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I would advise you to do an OB residency. Very difficult to find a hospital who will give you privileges unless you are in the sticks, have the numbers, and are very good at what you do. Even so, you will need a surgeon's back up in case something goes wrong and therein lies the problem of finding that person who is willing to fix your mistakes.
 
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I love the idea of surgical OB, but is the compensation worth it? How often do you guys take call? Are you able to get privileges at suburban hospitals in towns with at least 30,000 people? How many c sections do you need per month to maintain privileges? Thanks!

Recall a few things -- and I used to love the idea of being able to do everything, including cracking a chest in the field --- until reality set in ---

1) You're going to be held to the standard of a residency trained OB/Gyn -- the court will not care that you're an FM doc with an Ob fellowship or a whole lot of CSections under your belt.

2) You're liable until your last delivery turns 18 for any medical problems that arise that can remotely be tied to delivery.

3) Don't know your level of training but since you have MD behind your screen name -- recall how fast breaking a lot of OB complications can be -- you now have 2 patients and that is not the time to realize an inadequacy of your training.

4) Agree with @cabinbuilder, you should do an OB residency.
 
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Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm a fourth year medical student applying to family medicine. Maybe I'll steer clear of OB unless I can find an area where tons of FM docs do it and there's a good relationship with all of the OB's.

I would just like to have a "niche" without specializing entirely. Maybe I'll look into rural EM.
 
It's possible. There are sites where we can rotate at that have family docs delivering tons of babies. Might be less common these days but it's certainly something you can do.
 
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They exist. Half my graduating class still do surgical OB. All have no issues having privileges. Mind you they all do rural medicine though!
 
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So I talked with one of the Ob's about the issue of FM doing obstetrics and at what point they allow FM with Ob skills to have privileges. She said that if an FM did an obstetrics fellowship, they were much more likely to have the skills necessary to take an emergency call in the middle of the night. Because that's the real situation you need to think about: 1 AM and you get a phone call about a 13 week G3P1011 who complains of right-sided chest lower abdominal pain and has a blood pressure of 88/38 with tachycardia. Do you know how to remove an ectopic pregnancy? A full Ob residency will get you that. In addition, you'll be able to do a C-section in as little as 14 minutes if you're fast (using sutures, not staples). In a regular family practice residency, you can learn how to do vaginal deliveries very well, and you might become competent at C-sections at the procedure-heavy residencies, but the likelihood of that is extremely poor without a fellowship, especially coming from a residency program that doesn't have a heckuva lotta volume.
 
Sounds like FM docs who do OB fellowships can get privileges at suburban hospitals without enough OB's?
 
Ahem -- our Ob Fellowship trained FM attending was able to be a first assist but was granted no privileges greater than that --- IIRC, there was an OB fellowship in Austin that they trained at.

Now -- Tyler, Tx FM residency had a dual boarded FM and Ob/Gyn attending -- guy actually went back and finished the Ob/Gyn residency at JPS and came back to teach. When I interviewed there, you could get enough CSections to get privileges and feel comfortable enough to handle them on your own during your 3 years there if you expressed the interest.

I don't like OB enough after doing my 40 to put that much effort into it. Getting called out at 0-dark-30 to ride in on the trusty white steed ready to do battle with the forces of evil, sickness and disease and save the day lost it's appeal long ago --- I'd prefer to be sleeping at home with my wife planning that vacation to Spain after going to a Bowl game for my children's college team.

YMMV, no warranties expressed or implied, car driven by a professional driver on a closed track.
 
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A little different, but there are a few active duty Army family medicine physicians with OB fellowship that can do c sections.
 
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If you are mainly looking for a niche, FM has a ton of them. People can focus on EM, like you say, focus on hospitalist, do prenatal care but not deliver, or just work in L&D. I have heard of some that focus on diabetes management, HIV care, cystic fibrosis, pain management, and many more--there are many options. Just b/c you aren't in internal medicine or peds/ can't do many of the official board-certified subspecialties doesn't mean you can't find your niche. The sports medicine and sleep subspecialties are board certified (maybe there are others too I am forgetting).
 
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If you are mainly looking for a niche, FM has a ton of them. People can focus on EM, like you say, focus on hospitalist, do prenatal care but not deliver, or just work in L&D. I have heard of some that focus on diabetes management, HIV care, cystic fibrosis, pain management, and many more--there are many options. Just b/c you aren't in internal medicine or peds/ can't do many of the official board-certified subspecialties doesn't mean you can't find your niche. The sports medicine and sleep subspecialties are board certified (maybe there are others too I am forgetting).
There's 6 areas in Family Medicine that net you a CAQ. Adolescent Med, Geriatrics, Hospice/Palliative, Sports Med, Pain Med, Sleep Med.
 
I wouldn't let an fm do my wife's cs, likewise I don't want a Ob/Gyn thinking he's a hospitalist managing her pneumonia.


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Are OB/GYN residencies magical? I don't get how an OB who has done 300 c sections is better than a family doctor who has done 300 c sections? Sounds like mostly turf war politics to me.
 
the best answer to this would be from an FM+OB fellowship director. Note: FM+OB fellowship directors are ObGyns. (Note: grantors of surgical privilege for c-section at hospitals are ObGyns.)

how about let's pick the comparison at 150 c-sections. when you've logged 150-200 c-sections you're pretty much in the game to *ask* a hospital to sign off on you for c-sections as primary.

an obgyn resident hits 150 c-sections by the end of PGY2, after maybe ~6 months clocked on the deck plus call. usually obgyn residents stop counting because they're so far over the minimum at some point in PGY2 or 3. by c-section #50 or so, the attending probably doesn't bother to scrub. that obgyn resident at 150 is going to clock several more months on the deck plus call, with 1-2 more years of residency, usually in a fairly high risk facility. i would expect a PGY4 obygn resident to be able to cope when some serious **** hits the fan in the OR, because of the sheer number of hours that PGY4 has spent in the OR, usually at a high risk center. i would expect a PGY3 or PGY4 obgyn resident to have substantial surgical skill because of all the hysts and onco and general uterus-related carnage they're doing when they're not on the deck.

an fm resident is going to get 1 month, maybe 2, per year, on the deck, and then goes back to med or peds or ortho or what have you for months and months. a bit more deck time on call. a bit more deck time if there's a c-section pager and a willingness to carry it after you do your 12-16 hour shift elsewhere in the hospital. most of the deck time is vag deliveries, not c-sections. the FM grads who hit 150+ c-sections by the end of 3 years of fm residency are not primary on most, and get there by not having any obstacles such as FM+OB fellows, pissy attendings, low volume, competition from other residents, etc. no fm residency is going to guarantee you all the c-sections you want. So the real c-section experience, the predictable accumulation of skill, is in a one year fellowship after 3 years of residency where you're pretty much on the deck all week long.

Anecdotally, a young FM doc who did an OB fellowship and was on FM faculty at my med school, with deck privileges, then started ObGyn residency...as a PGY2.

If there are magic turf wars here, the ObGyns live on that turf 24x7. FM residents *don't* live on that turf. FM residents *visit* that turf for 3 years. FM+OB fellows get to live on that turf for a year, which is the most concentrated time they'll ever have on that turf. A facility that hires an FM+OB doc expects a whole lot of FM out of that doc.

^^ this is how much I've figured out 4 months into FM residency. a year ago I probably would have tried to make an equivalency argument too.
 
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the best answer to this would be from an FM+OB fellowship director. Note: FM+OB fellowship directors are ObGyns. (Note: grantors of surgical privilege for c-section at hospitals are ObGyns.)

how about let's pick the comparison at 150 c-sections. when you've logged 150-200 c-sections you're pretty much in the game to *ask* a hospital to sign off on you for c-sections as primary.

an obgyn resident hits 150 c-sections by the end of PGY2, after maybe ~6 months clocked on the deck plus call. usually obgyn residents stop counting because they're so far over the minimum at some point in PGY2 or 3. by c-section #50 or so, the attending probably doesn't bother to scrub. that obgyn resident at 150 is going to clock several more months on the deck plus call, with 1-2 more years of residency, usually in a fairly high risk facility. i would expect a PGY4 obygn resident to be able to cope when some serious **** hits the fan in the OR, because of the sheer number of hours that PGY4 has spent in the OR, usually at a high risk center. i would expect a PGY3 or PGY4 obgyn resident to have substantial surgical skill because of all the hysts and onco and general uterus-related carnage they're doing when they're not on the deck.

an fm resident is going to get 1 month, maybe 2, per year, on the deck, and then goes back to med or peds or ortho or what have you for months and months. a bit more deck time on call. a bit more deck time if there's a c-section pager and a willingness to carry it after you do your 12-16 hour shift elsewhere in the hospital. most of the deck time is vag deliveries, not c-sections. the FM grads who hit 150+ c-sections by the end of 3 years of fm residency are not primary on most, and get there by not having any obstacles such as FM+OB fellows, pissy attendings, low volume, competition from other residents, etc. no fm residency is going to guarantee you all the c-sections you want. So the real c-section experience, the predictable accumulation of skill, is in a one year fellowship after 3 years of residency where you're pretty much on the deck all week long.

Anecdotally, a young FM doc who did an OB fellowship and was on FM faculty at my med school, with deck privileges, then started ObGyn residency...as a PGY2.

If there are magic turf wars here, the ObGyns live on that turf 24x7. FM residents *don't* live on that turf. FM residents *visit* that turf for 3 years. FM+OB fellows get to live on that turf for a year, which is the most concentrated time they'll ever have on that turf. A facility that hires an FM+OB doc expects a whole lot of FM out of that doc.

^^ this is how much I've figured out 4 months into FM residency. a year ago I probably would have tried to make an equivalency argument too.

Noted.

So your argument is that OB/GYN's get gyn surgery experience as well. That's valid. What happens if an OB/GYN ruptures the bladder? Do they need back up from the general surgeons/urologists/whoever, whose turf they were visiting?
 
OB/GYN's grant privileges. Suspicion confirmed.
 
Let me build up a hypothetical that hints at how complicated surgical turf is. Happy to hear commentary from others on this, of course.

1. FM+OB doc Dr A. sees Suzie for prenatal visits in the outpatient clinic
2. Dr. A. is on call or on deck when Suzie goes into labor, expecting vag delivery
3. Suzie starts decelling
4. Dr. A gets paged and comes out and calls for c-section and in they go, all's well, dad's in the bunny suit etc
5. At this point pediatrics is in the room, so the baby is now shared turf
6. Dr. A bears responsibility for postpartum care and most likely bears responsibility for admitting baby
7. 3 parties are now effectively billing and bearing responsibility if things go badly: FM+OB, Anes & Peds
8. Suzie starts hemorrhaging
9. Dr. A gets paged again and massages and pushes pitocin etc but the bleed persists
10. Dr. A pages a surgeon, most likely an ObGyn, and we're back in the OR where Dr A is maybe 1st assist
11. Now there are 4 parties billing and bearing responsibility
12. Oops that was a ureter wasn't it
13. Urology gets paged, now there are 5 parties billing/bearing

You can see how colorectal and vasc could get called as well, correct? If any of the specialists aren't available, your job as FM+OB is more like FM+EM to get the patient stabilized for transport.

The above is the basic scenario you have to be ready for, in all deliveries, wherever you are. You're not going to be doing *any* deliveries as an FM+OB without a protocol for what you do when things go sour. The weaker the backup protocol, the more pregnancies get referred to a higher level of care from the get go.
 
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So regardless of who you are, FM or OB/GYN, you need back up. Point taken, was never disputed.
 
I love the idea of surgical OB, but is the compensation worth it? How often do you guys take call? Are you able to get privileges at suburban hospitals in towns with at least 30,000 people? How many c sections do you need per month to maintain privileges? Thanks!
First of all, there are plenty of us FPs out there doing C-sections. I hate that people are so negative whenever a student/resident says they want to do C-sections as a family doc - it is possible!

It's a numbers game, most rural hospitals require at least 50 primary C/S to credential you, but in my opinion you need more than that to become competent (though everyone is different on how many). I did an OB fellowship and did 100 primary C/S and 150+ first assists. After my recent graduation there were plenty of opportunities to do surgical OB for me and the rest of my fellowship class, all of whom are doing C/S all around the country (south, midwest, west, southeast) from small towns to big cities and everything in between. There are opportunities at teaching programs as faculty to do C/S in cities of all sizes, as well with community health centers. You'll find less out there in fancy private clinics & hospitals, but who wants to work there anyway!? I've heard pay ranging from $180 - 250+ depending on the setting you're working in. Everyone is different on how many they need to do to keep up skills. Good luck!
 
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First of all, there are plenty of us FPs out there doing C-sections.
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;)



I think if you want to do surgical OB, make it a priority now as a medical student to seek out programs that have direct access to surgical training (unopposed with OB attendings, or program with good relationship with the OB residency/dept), and plan on doing an OB fellowship after residency. Anything less would be doing you and your patients a disservice.
 
First of all, there are plenty of us FPs out there doing C-sections. I hate that people are so negative whenever a student/resident says they want to do C-sections as a family doc - it is possible!

Thanks for sharing your experience. As an aside, would you say that doing FM + OB is, in general, a good way to also include pediatric patients in your panel? I've not done OB yet, so I can't say whether I enjoy the work, but I recall an FM+OB physician saying that if you want a good # of kids in your practice, doing OB is a great way to do that.
 
Thanks for sharing your experience. As an aside, would you say that doing FM + OB is, in general, a good way to also include pediatric patients in your panel? I've not done OB yet, so I can't say whether I enjoy the work, but I recall an FM+OB physician saying that if you want a good # of kids in your practice, doing OB is a great way to do that.

For sure! It's a great way to get young, (generally) healthy women and their kids... a win-win.
 
There's 6 areas in Family Medicine that net you a CAQ. Adolescent Med, Geriatrics, Hospice/Palliative, Sports Med, Pain Med, Sleep Med.

CAQ: certificate of added qualification.

I dont understand what you mean by this? Are you listing the FM fellowships?
 
CAQ: certificate of added qualification.

I dont understand what you mean by this? Are you listing the FM fellowships?
No. I'm listing the FM fellowships for which you can earn a CAQ. Obviously these are not all of the fellowships FM can do. These are, however, the areas for which you earn a CAQ.
 
How do you pronounce CAQ?
 
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The CAQ Fellowships are the technical ACGME accredited fellowships where you sit for a board. There are plenty of other fellowships FM's can do to enhance their practice that does not have a CAQ. HIV, OB/women's health, PCMH, community/international medicine, faculty development, derm (only 1 in the country but it exists), hospitalist, ER, etc. Feel free to go to the AAFP website and see what's available!
 
How difficult is it to do FM residency and then start OBGYN residency as a PGY2?
 
They won't start you as a pgy2. maybe a pgy1 with a few months credit.
I know an fm who did an ob fellowship, then practices a few years before applying to a obgyn residency. she started off as a pgy1
 
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