any HAPPY MD/PhD people out there???

[nishi]

Wow, I'm considering applying to an MD/PhD program but I haven't read any posts where people seem glad that they did. I know you can do research as an MD so is it worth it do go into a combined program?

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[ImmunoANT]

any HAPPY MD/PhD people out there???

yeah, for those already in a program, how do you feel? Are you ... ... ... HAPPY?

I should really get back to study ... ...

 

[tr]

yeah, for those already in a program, how do you feel? Are you ... ... ... HAPPY?

I should really get back to study ... ...

Am I *happy*? I suppose I have my good days and my bad days. Grad school is no picnic.

On the other hand, nothing interesting is easy, and I don't doubt my commitment to science.

Regarding just getting an MD, you can certainly do that, but I think it's much more difficult to pick up your stuff. You have to pay your dues at some point, and if you start learning as a postdoc you have a lot less leeway to screw up.

Grad school is a time to learn how to do things you'll need later. You're going to need to know how to plan and run an experiment, how to interpret your data, how to present them, and how to apply for grant money. If you have to pick up all those things on the fly when you're already into the postdoc stage, you'll be at a pretty distinct disadvantage.

Also you have less exposure to different fields, and so you have to choose your field more or less blindly.

Finally, med school alone is an expensive proposition, and research careers don't pay the fat salaries that will allow you to pay off your loans with relatively little strain. Try paying back $100+K in debt on a postdoc salary.

All in all, I think if you already know you want to do research (for sure), it is worth your while to get the dual degree. If you are *not* sure, it's better to go for MD + 1 research year. That will let you figure out what you like without too much of a time investment.

 

[Vader]

I agree with tr's comments.

I greatly enjoyed the first two years of med school. I felt as though learning about a wide variety of topics gave me some perspective before entering the grad school years.

I am currently in the grad school phase and can say that at this point it is a bit nebulous in terms of when exactly I will graduate. That uncertainty, combined with seeing my classmates applying for residency can be somewhat disconcerting at times.

That being said, I am glad that I am doing the PhD because I feel that it has expanded my ability to think deeply about questions and to develop methods for answering them. In addition, I feel that I have become more independent overall and think much more critically when assessing scientific literature. Finally, I appreciate having additional background in my field by having taken some grad school classes.

There are certainly many hills and valleys in grad school. I think the ability to handle delayed gratification is essential. Research requires tremendous persistence and drive, as well as a bit of luck.

One thing that I have noticied is that I have forgotten quite a bit of what I had learned in medical school, so I am sure going back for the clinical rotations will be a rather painful process at first. I think it is essential to realize that what you may have lost in terms of factual medical knowledge is more than compensated by the increase in maturity and independent thinking ability gained from the PhD years.

 

[BDavis]

Wow, I'm considering applying to an MD/PhD program but I haven't read any posts where people seem glad that they did. I know you can do research as an MD so is it worth it do go into a combined program?

I am close to finishing my Ph.D. (basically write thesis, finish some experiments and defend). I enjoyed medical school even though the hours were long (I liked the clinical portion the best) and I enjoyed the middle of graduate school where experiments were working for me and I was generating data and doing experiments that I wanted to do. The hardest time for me is now when I can see the light towards returning to medical school, but the committee keeps heaping on more and more experiments (often experiments that I don't really want to do).

In retrospect, I wish I could of finished my graduate school training a little faster, but I don't regret the dual degree program. Here at Baylor, the medical and graduate schools are not well integrated and it feels like you go to two different programs (for better or for worse). Even if I just went M.D. only I think I would of taken 1-2 years off in medical school to do research. Based on my empirical experience, it takes 1 year of just goofing (yes I did transfer Westerns to the wrong side, and run PCRs without Taq) around trying to get things to work and 2 years of true productive research.

 

[double_cut]

I am close to finishing my Ph.D. (basically write thesis, finish some experiments and defend). I enjoyed medical school even though the hours were long (I liked the clinical portion the best) and I enjoyed the middle of graduate school where experiments were working for me and I was generating data and doing experiments that I wanted to do. The hardest time for me is now when I can see the light towards returning to medical school, but the committee keeps heaping on more and more experiments (often experiments that I don't really want to do).

In retrospect, I wish I could of finished my graduate school training a little faster, but I don't regret the dual degree program. Here at Baylor, the medical and graduate schools are not well integrated and it feels like you go to two different programs (for better or for worse). Even if I just went M.D. only I think I would of taken 1-2 years off in medical school to do research. Based on my empirical experience, it takes 1 year of just goofing (yes I did transfer Westerns to the wrong side, and run PCRs without Taq) around trying to get things to work and 2 years of true productive research.

your committee heaps experiments on you??? what is this? why is a committee giving you experiments?

 

[BDavis]

your committee heaps experiments on you??? what is this? why is a committee giving you experiments?

Thesis committees sometimes feel certain experiments are necessary to complete a story. These committees are composed of faculty members in and out of your graduate school department, as well as your own boss. They have the power to set conditions for graduation. Some committees are more involved, some could care less about what you do in graduate school.

 

[mrcdsbenz2000]

Hi guys- I had wondered about this as well and while spending some time in labs got a chance to ask Md/PhDs what their thoughts were. I think a lot of it has to do with how the actual PhD experience went. If it took 3-4 years- usually good, if it took longer...not so good. But an interesting perspective that I got was the more utilitarian perspective given to me by a post-doc (MD/PhD) who was actually a little bitter about his experience. He said that in fact doing the MD/PhD was not only good in its research aspect, but he said that getting quality fellowships, grants, and job offers has been highly dependent on his dual degree. just a thought

 

[neurotiger]

This is probably slightly off-topic in relation to the original post, but as a current medical student, I am thrilled to have a PhD ahead of me. Much of the medical school curriculum involves less thinking and more memorizing. It scares me that a fair amount of what doctors do is take known fact and dole it out according to a series of decision trees. Research offers creativity and innovation where medicine, by nature, cannot. I love interacting with people and am thrilled to be earning the right to see patients one day, but I am also very glad that a part of my career will involve novel interpretation and application. In short, the first year of medical school is not quite as enthralling as I thought it'd be...I miss research.

 

[nishi]

This is probably slightly off-topic in relation to the original post, but as a current medical student, I am thrilled to have a PhD ahead of me. Much of the medical school curriculum involves less thinking and more memorizing. It scares me that a fair amount of what doctors do is take known fact and dole it out according to a series of decision trees. Research offers creativity and innovation where medicine, by nature, cannot. I love interacting with people and am thrilled to be earning the right to see patients one day, but I am also very glad that a part of my career will involve novel interpretation and application. In short, the first year of medical school is not quite as enthralling as I thought it'd be...I miss research.

hmmm... interesting perspective. I've been so pre-med-atized I've never considered that I might actually like research better! What about getting your PhD first, and then going to medical school? Or vice versa. Can you work as a physician and go to school to get your PhD the same time?

 

[Gfunk6]

What about getting your PhD first, and then going to medical school? Or vice versa. Can you work as a physician and go to school to get your PhD the same time?

Probably not a good idea to be away from medicine or research for too long, hence the integrated nature of most MSTPs. One notable exception is completing your MD first and then obtaining the PhD as part of a research-intensive residency/fellowship. Such programs are common for surgery and surgical subspecialities.

 

[BDavis]

This is probably slightly off-topic in relation to the original post, but as a current medical student, I am thrilled to have a PhD ahead of me. Much of the medical school curriculum involves less thinking and more memorizing. In short, the first year of medical school is not quite as enthralling as I thought it'd be...I miss research.

I had the same feeling when I was in medical school and I missed research. Things got much better for me when I was in clinical rotations. However once I was in graduate school I started to miss medical school because I realized that medical school is fixed at ~3 years whereas the Ph.D. may take between 4-7 years (at least at our school). I guess when you are in one phase of training you have fond memories of the other phase and vice versa.

 

[tr]

I had the same feeling when I was in medical school and I missed research. Things got much better for me when I was in clinical rotations. However once I was in graduate school I started to miss medical school because I realized that medical school is fixed at ~3 years whereas the Ph.D. may take between 4-7 years (at least at our school). I guess when you are in one phase of training you have fond memories of the other phase and vice versa.

Yes, I remember feeling exactly this way as well.

I definitely prefer the intellectual atmosphere of grad school, but it is *hard*. Med school is easy. All you do is memorize information and take tests, and all of us are very good at those things because we have been honing our test-taking skills for two decades already. I don't think I put in an honest 40-hour week while I was in med school, except during exam blocks. Grad school is a whole different animal.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Nishi,

I have just completed MD/PhD training. Sure there were some good times and bad times. More good times though. I really enjoyed M1 and M2 year. Grad school rocked. M3 year a trying time. M4 "year" was better. Overall, I am very pleased with my choice of doing MD/PhD work here. And I would do this again.

To echo some of the above posts, people have varying experiences in MD/PhD programs. A lot of this hinges on how they liked the graduate phase because this is a significant chunk of time spent in combined degree programs. If grad school was a frustrating experience and many experiments did not work and you took a long time to graduate, I can see how one may not enjoy the MD/PhD experience as much.

I personally liked grad school better but that doesn't mean I hated med school altogether. I think MD/PhD training gives one a very special set of skills that many people do not have--one gets to learn about many many kinds of diseases and how they affect people; at the same time, one learns how to do science thereby enabling one to effectively combine medical knowledge and bench research ideas. This is a privilege not many get to have.

So am I happy? You bet your ass I am!

 

[BDavis]

I personally liked grad school better but that doesn't mean I hated med school altogether. I think MD/PhD training gives one a very special set of skills that many people do not have--one gets to learn about many many kinds of diseases and how they affect people; at the same time, one learns how to do science thereby enabling one to effectively combine medical knowledge and bench research ideas.

I think the MD/PhD program also allows you to see the best and worst qualities of going to medical and graduate school. In the end, some may regret doing the MD/PhD program, but by virtue of finishing they have gained valuable experience which allows them to shape their career so that they are happy.

 

[Vader]

I think the MD/PhD program also allows you to see the best and worst qualities of going to medical and graduate school. In the end, some may regret doing the MD/PhD program, but by virtue of finishing they have gained valuable experience which allows them to shape their career so that they are happy.

I agree. But the real challenge is trying to "explain" to family members why anyone would want to spend 7-8 years doing this, especially during the PhD phase which is by nature an undefined period of time (I usually give a range of 3-4 years, but this doesn't seem to satisfy people).

Equally challenging is trying to convey to non-scientists why academics, studying research questions, etc is intrinsically interesting. The general public (and my family) seems to have a sense of why studying disease is important, but as soon as I start talking to people about studying mice to discover basic mechanisms of neurodevelopment, I see their interest fade. After the blank looks, the next question they usually proceed to ask me is something along the lines of: "so are you studying stem cells?" or "what medical specialty do you want to go into?", completely not recognizing the importance of intellectual curiosity and the intrinsic value of research and instead almost expecting that there is some external practical, tangible result that is immediately medical relevant.

 

[Gut Shot]

It scares me that a fair amount of what doctors do is take known fact and dole it out according to a series of decision trees. Research offers creativity and innovation where medicine, by nature, cannot.

Ummmm, while I agree that medicine is often highly protocolized and doctors often behave like glorified technicians, perhaps you should get a tiny bit further in your training before making such blanket indictments. I would be delighted if you could approach, say, some surgeons at your institution and inform them that the practice of medicine, by its nature, cannot involve creativity and innovation.

The first years of medical school are definitely heavy on memorization, but that's part of the beauty of becoming knowledgable (even in a painful, rote way). Sure, it sucks to have to swallow such a huge pill, but it's nice to know what you're talking about when a patient asks you a question. Just try not to forget it all while you're slaving away on your PhD.

-Havarti666, PhD (2001), MD (2005)