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any international students headed to DO Schools?

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by DoWannaBe, Apr 9, 1999.

  1. DoWannaBe

    DoWannaBe Junior Member
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    First of all I want to congratulate those of you who got accepted into DO/MD schools this year. we all worked really hard to make the dream come true. Let's think that we deserved it. And I want to encourage those of you still struggling. I just want to say keep trying. If I could do it, anyone can do it.

    I posted this topic because there seems to be no or very few international students at DO/MD schools in the United States. I am getting really intimidated about this fact. Maybe we are destined to drop out?!?

    Do we really have hardship during school? I know my English is far from perfection. I am aware that I have many grammatical erros in this posting. (And I apologize for it) I am just curious about what you all think about a international student getting into DO school this coming Fall 1999.

    I welcome any comments from anyone on a really fearsome, incoming osteopathic med school student.
     
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  3. NickCVM

    NickCVM Senior Member
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    I'm headed to WesternU this Fall - and I'm French.
    good luck to you
    Nicolas
    WesternU'03
     
  4. edgar

    edgar Senior Member
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    The reason why there seems be a dearth of international students in US medical schools is due to 2 factors: (1) residency status and (2) loans and financial aid. There are so many qualified US applicants to MD/DO schools these days that admissions committees use almost anything to whittle their application pool down, and unfortunately non-US residents may get cut first unless they have outstanding academic credentials. And non-US citizens are largely prohibited from receiving Federal Loans such as the Stafford program. So international students may have to cough up the $200,000 price tag for medical school without help from Uncle Sam. I know of a very well qualified pre-med student from Japan, and he graduated summa cum laude from my graduate school, has multiple publications, and has great extracirrics. Even though he is very well qualified, our campus pre-med advisor has advised him to hold off applying until he gets his US citizenship.

    EDGAR
     
  5. 2003

    2003 Senior Member
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    Edgar is right on. As a Canadian our schools are on par with American institutions and speaking/writing English is, unless your francophone, not a problem. However, to get a student visa you have to prove you have enough money for your entire four years of education ($160,000+). My mom and sister are US citizens and I will have my green card before too long (through my mother sponsoring me) but I know all of the difficulties.
     
  6. I know you guys will tear me apart on this one, but frankly regardless of how well qualified foreign applicants are I feel it is right that they have a much more difficult time be accepted into US medical schools. There are too many American applicants being turned down and allowing foreign applicants in in droves would make this even worse. US med schools are and should be primarily interested in training AMERICAN students to enter the health profession.
     
  7. justwannabadoc

    justwannabadoc Senior Member
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    Actually DOGBOY, there is nothing wrong with what you've said. I agree that unless you have absolutely exceptional qualifications, spots should go to American students.
     
  8. Henry

    Henry Senior Member
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    I agree with you too Dogboy. Also, edgar has stated some good points, and I believe those are the major reasons that US medical schools is turning foreign students away.
     
  9. DoWannaBe

    DoWannaBe Junior Member
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    Edgar: please tell your friend to consider NSUCOM because even if I had OK GPA=3.55 MCAT 27 (bio 10, phy=12, verb=5 (yes that's right.. LOW SCORE =5)), I have been accepted there.

    They are willing to take international students as well.

    However, I am kinda afraid they made a mistake though....

    I am very very afraid of medical school..
    DO you guys have that at all?
     
  10. DoWannaBe

    DoWannaBe Junior Member
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    Edgar.. Please tell your japanese friend to consider NSUCOM because I got accepted there even if I had low GPA of 3.55 and 27 MCAT (B=10, P=12, V=5 .. yes that's right .. a low score of 5)...

    Well, regarding if medical school should open up their doors to international students... well yes and no...

    See,.. I know you guys want doctors for Americans... yest.. that's very right... I know medical schools in the USA are funded by tax somewhat... and we are not paying that tax..

    however,, see my point is the USA is number 1 country in the World.. accepting international studnets means helping students from other country to absorb this number 1 education in the world... consequently.. it can help a lot of people in the world.... a little bit more would be enough though...

    NOTE: I again apologize for many grammatical errors..
     
  11. 2003

    2003 Senior Member
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    I agree with you too Dogboy.
     
  12. I am a little confused about DOWannaBe's remarks about them makeing a mistake and being ver very afraid of medical school?

    Anyways, in theory traing international students in the US so they can return to their countries and benefit the people in their country is a noble gesture. However, as I said before you take spots away from US students and most importantly most of the international students want to remain in the US when they graduate
     
  13. VM

    VM Senior Member
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    DOGBOY, I agree with you. The problem with educating foreign doctors or allowing non US-IMGs to take residency spots is that the majority of them will never return to their countries to help their people. Most of them just want to live the good life hear in America. You can't blame them, but they should be required to leave if they say they will. This is not to be construed as a knock on foreign docs (my mom was not originally from America), but most patients feel that they are the worse at communicating (no, not because of broken English) with them. Of course this is a generalization.
     
  14. JONM

    JONM Member
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    I think we should close the borders to all foreigners period. Until we fix health care, child abuse, homelessness, and the prison system (i.e. things we need to take care of first), everyone outside the country should get in line. How long is it going to be before other countries do things for themselves. Americans document and patent every idea they have. Read our books if you want, but stay in your own country. If you are running from religious persecution, fight back, don't run. If you must run, find a place that is less inhabited. If all you really want is an education, then leave after you get it. I pray that American students get the spots in med school before any one of you.
     
  15. NickCVM

    NickCVM Senior Member
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    John
    Your ignorance is touching - unless you are a native American, your little ass probably comes from somewhere like Europe, Africa, Asia or Australia. This country is made out of immigrants like you, me and the 99.9% of the people on this tread.
    later
    Nicolas
    WesternU'03
     
  16. DoWannaBe

    DoWannaBe Junior Member
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    JONM;

    I may have a grammatical error... sorry

    I believe whatever you are saying must be very true... you know accepting american students over international students..

    but one thing, don't you think that we (international students) can diversify american medical schools further. I mean we are different. the influence from us can be one thing for you guys? just wondering..

    NOVA '03
    daniel
     
  17. JONM

    JONM Member
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    That's JON "Young Wise Owl" M to you Nick.
    The Cherokee Nation thanks you for your comment.

     
  18. Long live homogeneity when it comes to Americans in American medical schools. Diversify? Give us a huge break with the immigrants making up the US. I mean please Nick, for all you guys out there wondering why I dislike COMP so much...
     
  19. NickCVM

    NickCVM Senior Member
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    UUHHH.. do I sense irritation from little JONYDUDE and DOGYDUDE!?.. ah, ah.. what a team response.. BRAVO, BRAVO..eh,eh.. I'm all for Americans + ME in American Med Schools.
    --Nicolas--
    WesternU'03
     
  20. JONM

    JONM Member
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    Grow up Nick.

    Once again you have resorted to childish acts in order to defend your position. Your immature defense mechanisms are not going to influence my opinion so give it up.

    Why does everyone think diversification is such a great thing. I'm not racist and this is not about being ProAmerican. We are talking about American students having rights to an American medical education before any international students. This is a common sense issue.

    We have enough diversification among our citizens to diversify our schools.

    If an international student wants to compete for admission to highly competitive medical schools that are turning away well qualified Americans, he or she should be required to become an American citizen before trying.

    I realize that most schools do have a policy on this.

     
  21. NickCVM

    NickCVM Senior Member
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    Yes, most med schools have a very strict policy regarding foreigners (I escape this policy bc/ my father was a US citizen by birth my friend). This should tell you one thing dough: The foreign students admitted to our schools MUST be excellent achievers.

    I was directing my comments on your original post where you seemed to believe that by stopping immigration you will deal better with problems such as "child abuse, health care and homelessness..".

    1. health care problems are not related to immigration - The real problem with health care system is that Doctors have lost control over their own profession.
    2. Make one good argument about how we could prevent child abuse by closing our borders
    and I might believe you!!!
    Nicolas
    WesternU'03
     
  22. epilido

    epilido Member
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    Nick, it seems to me that JONM never said we could fix homelessness and child abuse by closing our borders. I believe what he said was that the US should concentrate on fixing these and other problems in the US BEFORE we worry about other country's problems, such as poor educational opportunities. Correct me if I'm wrong, JONM. And I happen to agree 100%, for what it's worth.

    The defensiveness and political-correctness-at-all-costs on ONet are very disturbing.
     
  23. NickCVM

    NickCVM Senior Member
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    epilidio
    I really don't mean to be politically correct by any means - and I do agree that we need to fix things at home before we go and mind into other countries business - BUT closing our borders to foreigners is ridiculous. This country was made what it is today by immigrants.
    later
     
  24. JONM

    JONM Member
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    Thank you epilido. You interpreted my reply on the money.

    Nick, I don't care how much of an "achiever" any non-US citizen is when it comes to getting into a US medical school. The fact is, if you are not a US citizen you should be at the bottom of the list.
     
  25. 2003

    2003 Senior Member
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    Nick, I got around the issue too (with my mother being a US-citizen). I'm sure Canada (not Canadians) would be happy if it was harder to go to the US b/c we have an issue (called "the brain drain") where bright, educated professionals move to the US in great numbers. Why you ask? Politically, Canada is more left wing than the US (whether you are talking about democrats or republicans). That is to say, Canada has a much better social safety net with a much better handle on poverty and the lowest illiteracy rate in the world. This obviously comes at the expense of something -- the wealthy. Canada has high tax rates for people making high incomes (I read a comparison recently saying that someone in Canada pays 49% in taxes [the highest rate] when the same person in the US would pay 33%). Obviously, if you are on this (wealthier) end of the spectrum and firms, companies, universities, and hospitals are sponsoring you to come to the US -- it is tempting. Simply, many go. One good thing is that Canada is lowering taxes to try to reduce the loss.

    Another note regarding taking care of issues at home before venturing beyond your borders. I used to think that exact same way b/c it makes sense (common sense, like was said). However, I took a course on foreign policy and there are great advantages to getting involved -- which can reap you far more benefits in the long run. One example mentioned was that if you had a family and you waited until everything was perfect with your family before you helped a neighbor then you'd probably would never help. However, if you helped that neighbor it might come back to benefit you. For medical school, one might say that the best applicants should get accepted. I believe the US has it correct right now where many schools do not accept foreign applications, some do (but you must be stellar), and a couple just treat you like you were American. I believe foreign students make up less than 1% of matriculating students (seems to make sense to me).
     
  26. Ozteo_Ben

    Ozteo_Ben Junior Member

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    By accepting foreign students, are they in a way assiting in the funding of better facilities and equipment towards your course/university? Aren't their tuition fees much more than what you are paying? (genuine question)

    I know I should have kept my mouth shut since I am an Australian and have no real understanding of your educational system. But I found some of you guys' comments quite racist and disturbing.

    And DoWAnnabe, would u just stop apologising and agreeing on everything other people have to say. Yes, you may be an international student but you have been accepted into med school, why are you still doubting yourself? That's no way of being a doctor. Confidence and self-esteem, in my humble opinion are the most important qualities we all need to posess. You have been given the invaluable opportunity to study Osteo, grasp it and prove yourself to the rest of the world.
     
  27. Ozteo_Ben

    Ozteo_Ben Junior Member

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    DoWannabe,

    Where are you from?

    NickCVM,

    What's Osteopahic medicine like in France? Isn't it illegal there or something? However, I have just seen a french osteopathic college on the web the other day. I think it's called CEESO or something.. it's in Paris.

    Pls reply hear or u can email me on [email protected]

    Ben
     
  28. Henry

    Henry Senior Member
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    Hey guys let tell you a true story that happened to my friend.

    When my friend was studying in one of the Kaplan center for MCAT couple years ago, a foreign grad doctor, who was taking broad review class there, approached him. She offered a deal to my friend.

    She told my friend that her best friend is also a foreign grad doctor but only carrying a visitor visa to come to US. She stated that her friend was willing to paid anyone US citizen an amount of of $15,000 for getting marry in order to receive legal resident in America. My friend immediately turn her down, because it was kind of strange situation.

    What ar you opinion regrading this issue?
     
  29. edgar

    edgar Senior Member
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    Henry,

    The story your friend told you happens sometimes, and not just foreign doctors trying to get citizenship. The INS (rightfully so) has been stiffening the requirements for people to come into the US. It is especially hard for the foreign doctors because there are just too many in this country. It is unethical, but some people would take the $15,000, wait until the citizenship becomes official and then go for the divorce. Very interesting.

    EDGAR
     
  30. UHS2002

    UHS2002 Senior Member
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    I don't think anybody needs to worry about the marriage-for-greencard scam anymore. Very well publicized by the movie "Greencard" a few years back, so a lot of people think that it happens very often. The truth is that, as Edgar pointed out, the INS made it almost impossible to pull it off. If a foreign national marries an American citizen, the green card he/she receives is only valid for 2 years. In order to get this temporary greencard, the couple has to go to a very thorough interview, which estabilishes things such as: how long they knew each other, that they are indeed living together, and a bunch of stuff like that. After 2 years the American spouse has to petition for a permanent greencard for his foreign born spouse. Again, the INS asks for documentation, such as birth certificate of the children born from the marriage, bank account statements, house contracts, wills, etc. So, now we have 2 people that would pretty much have to live together for 3 years, and share such things as bank accounts, mortgages in common, credit cards and the like, so that they can pull off this kind os scam. I would not live with a perfect stranger for 3 years, put my bank accounts and savings and so in in joint ownership with this person (who can then divorce me and claim part of the "loot") just to make $15,000. Not even for twice that much...
    By the way, as citizenship is concerned, the foreign spouse is only eligible to apply after he/she has had the greencard for 3 years. Right now, it takes from 1-3 years to process the citizenship application, and then both spouses have to go to the citizenship interview (otherwise, a foreign born person has to wait for 5 years before applying for citizenship). So now, we are talking being married to this someone for at least 4 years and perhaps as many as 6 before getting citizenship.
     
  31. It really is a pleasure to read Henry's posts. As soon as I see his name before I look at what he has written I get a sense of anticipation of what kind of nonsense and random comment will be posted. Thanks buddy for making me smile. [​IMG]
     
  32. Henry

    Henry Senior Member
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    Dogboy,

    If my posting make you laugh, so be it.

    In the movie Patch Adam, the medical student Mr. Adams also did silly things just to get the laughter from the children, who have cancer. He even dressed as an angel to make a dying man smile.

    So if I can make you laugh, that is fine. This is what holistic medicine is all about. Besides learning how to medically treat a patient, maybe I should learn how make my patient to relax and feel easier.

    Maybe Dogboy lack of that capability???

    However, lets focus back to the main theme of this thread please.

    [This message has been edited by Henry (edited April 26, 1999).]

    [This message has been edited by Henry (edited April 27, 1999).]
     

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