Any more new schools on the horizon?

RisingSun

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    I know that a number of new DO schools have been established in the past few years (PA-Georgia being the latest). Anyone know if there are any other new schools scheduled to open up anytime in the near future?

    Wishing that a new school would open up in the NW (I know that COMP has the NW track, but it's not quite the same thing).

    RisingSun
     
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    subtle1epiphany

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      Echinoidea said:
      The way things are going in the DO world, soon DeVry will open a campus, and not long after that, you'll see Sally Struthers adveritsing on TV for a DO degree that you can complete from home.

      ;)
      :D
      I agree with ya there, all the new schools does make me a bit nervous, but they are helping to increase the number of doctors in the US. We're gonna be short in the near future (ie our lifetime) so we can choose to open more schools in the USA, or import.

      Regardless, I think that the AOA or whoever, really should open a school in the NW, that area is sorely lacking in medical schools period (aside from the insanely hard to get into UofW/Oregon/UCs/etc), not to mention any DO school other than COMP's NW Track.
       

      Fantasy Sports

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        subtle1epiphany said:
        :D
        I agree with ya there, all the new schools does make me a bit nervous, but they are helping to increase the number of doctors in the US. We're gonna be short in the near future (ie our lifetime) so we can choose to open more schools in the USA, or import.

        Regardless, I think that the AOA or whoever, really should open a school in the NW, that area is sorely lacking in medical schools period (aside from the insanely hard to get into UofW/Oregon/UCs/etc), not to mention any DO school other than COMP's NW Track.

        And where are the residencies going to come from? Medicare has frozen funding to US residency positions to 1996 levels, so it is unlikely new residency positions will open anytime soon. FSU, which is the first new allopathic school in almost 2 decades, and it is uncertain how long it will take for it to develop enough residency slots to provide for its own.

        We can't keep opening up med schools without concurrent residency positions being opened. Otherwise we risk the loss of guaranteed training (at least in SOME field) and an overall decline in medical education.

        Rather than opening up new schools left and right, we as future doctors should concentrate on increasing the quality and quantity of current residency programs as opposed to building new schools that don't provide their students with a viable post-graduate education. Otherwise we will go back to the days of being nothing more than trade schools.
         

        JohnDO

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          For once I find myself agreeing wholeheartedly with Fantasy Sports. In my opinion, the AOA needs to strongly regulate the opening of new schools. This growth we're experiencing cannot be supported without increasing reliance upon ACGME positions. They need to stop opening new schools and start pushing for increased quality of osteopathic residency programs so that osteopathic students don't have to flock to ACGME spots.
           

          DRGIGGLES

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            first, a little gossip...

            years ago, there was talk of at least two schools, neither of which i know the outcome to. perhaps someone could track these down?

            the first was in utah and was supposed to be affiliated with utah valley state college down in orem (provo?). from what i heard, the state medical community (basically all MD) was very supportive of this effort because the intermountain west only has one med school.

            the second was supposed to be affiliated with rocky mountain state college up in montana somewhere. again, not sure what happened to that effort.

            though i agree with much of the sentiment in the post quoted below, i think new schools flourish/wither depending on local conditions. take the intermountain west which i believe is prime for a DO school. like i said, there's only one med school there now but there are several major universities all grinding out loads of pre-meds. much of this area is medically underserved since it is rural and so could sustain a small med school with rural pg training programs. i'm sure a primary care focused school would do well there.

            as for pg training in general, yeah, that remains an issue. for me, the question really comes down to the old, "what will the market bear?" take tucom for example. tu-ca opened in an area with 3 MAJOR med schools and no lack of physicians. though i think good student training can definitely be had there, it's a very, very competitive environment to operate in. most of the big hospitals are already affiliated with one of the other schools - though they are not opposed to taking tucom students as clerks/residents. but in regards to opening NEW pg training programs, even those hospitals that aren't affiliated with the big 3 would rather be. (tucom has some fault in this.) is it any surprise that touro's first residencies are going to be in vegas? and, yes, they are supposed to open though how the medicare situation plays into it, i have no idea.

            anyway, since i'm on it take on the other hand, tu-nv. there you have brilliant strategizing on touro's part. vegas is a pretty big metropolitan area, growing by the day and with no local med school. (ok, a bunch of reno kids come down for the last two years; that program is too small to fill the area's needs.) there's also a good sized university there as well as several other feeders in southern cal. plus a major physician shortage which means the local docs are pretty supportive of having a med school open for both business and academic enrichment purposes. touro has taken full advantage of this opening a new school and residencies (soon) all within a matter of a few years. so i repeat, is it any surprise that touro's first residencies are going to be in vegas?

            new schools can be done...just as long as they're done carefully.

            -drgiggles

            Fantasy Sports said:
            And where are the residencies going to come from? Medicare has frozen funding to US residency positions to 1996 levels, so it is unlikely new residency positions will open anytime soon. FSU, which is the first new allopathic school in almost 2 decades, and it is uncertain how long it will take for it to develop enough residency slots to provide for its own.

            We can't keep opening up med schools without concurrent residency positions being opened. Otherwise we risk the loss of guaranteed training (at least in SOME field) and an overall decline in medical education.

            Rather than opening up new schools left and right, we as future doctors should concentrate on increasing the quality and quantity of current residency programs as opposed to building new schools that don't provide their students with a viable post-graduate education. Otherwise we will go back to the days of being nothing more than trade schools.
             

            inhope

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              Echinoidea said:
              The way things are going in the DO world, soon DeVry will open a campus, and not long after that, you'll see Sally Struthers adveritsing on TV for a DO degree that you can complete from home.

              ;)
              I'm not sure of the DeVry expansion, but there are already self directed (only need to be on campus for labs) courses out there....
               

              Fantasy Sports

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                DRGIGGLES said:
                though i agree with much of the sentiment in the post quoted below, i think new schools flourish/wither depending on local conditions. take the intermountain west which i believe is prime for a DO school. like i said, there's only one med school there now but there are several major universities all grinding out loads of pre-meds. much of this area is medically underserved since it is rural and so could sustain a small med school with rural pg training programs. i'm sure a primary care focused school would do well there.

                as for pg training in general, yeah, that remains an issue. for me, the question really comes down to the old, "what will the market bear?"

                The thing is, there is no market for residency positions. They are there or they are not. Several DOs I know complain about the lack of quality rotations/residency options at their school (such that they have to rotate in another city or whatnot). Even though there is a demand for more osteopathic residency training positions, the schools arent supplying them.

                What schools are doing is opening up everywhere, taking students money, and then not opening up residency programs to further educate those students. What they ARE doing is taking that money and either opening up new DO schools, new branch campuses, podiatry schools, etc.

                So the question has nothing to do with market and everything to do with regulation. If the AOA created an accrediting board that said each school (new or existing) must provide enough residency training spots to support X% of their graduates, I think you would see a) a drastic reduction in the number of schools opening up and b) an increase in the quality of clinical education (since when you are forced to have residency programs at the med school, it will also mean your rotations will likely be better and on campus).
                 

                DRGIGGLES

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                  yes, i agree that schools are opening up, taking money and opening more schools. i also agree that more regulation could stop this trend though i think the type mentioned is admirable but impossible. requiring med schools to provide enough residency slots for X% of their student bodies would be a wonderful and bold step. that goes for osteopathic AND allopathic schools. but in fact, there is no cause to do this and unless the way residencies are funded drastically changes, it won't happen.

                  i'll add another way to accomplish this in addition to the one pointed out above. ever wonder why MD schools don't proliferate the way DO schools seem to? the fact is that the cost of opening DO programs is significantly less. why? it has nothing to do with altruism, concern for the profession, the number of residency spots, etc. on the allopathic side's part. and it has everything to do with greed and the desire to bolster numbers on the osteopathic side. (i'm an osteopath and i have no fear in saying this.)

                  on the face of it, you would think that the cost should be about the same, yes? same basic facilities, same type of faculty needed, etc. but here's one major difference: the AOA requires SIGNIFICANTLY less money placed in escrow up front to guarantee the financial solvency of new schools. about a third less to be exact. i could go into the way this figure is calcutated but i won' right now; trust me, it's a big difference. thus, while the facilities and operating costs may be similar, the up-front cost is way, way less in the osteopathic world. i would venture to say if the same was true in the allopathic world, we'd see allopathic schools popping up all over the place.

                  incidentally, i think this suggestion is as equally impossible as the one posted above. i'm pretty sure the AOA has placed the goal of getting the number of DOs up above everything else at this point.

                  in the end, the number of residencies out there has everything to do with the market and little to do with regulation by the AOA or ACGME. who pays for residents? the government pays, and to some extent we as consumers pay directly by sharing the costs accrued by "self-pay" (meaning "i'm not going to pay") patients. technically there is still a glut of residencies out there, especially in primary care. most osteopathic student match. DOs get jobs. they make as much dough as MDs. if you look at it that way, what's the fuss about? the AOA has no real reason to force schools to add residencies and no power to do so anyway because they don't pay the costs and neither do the schools. besides, their goal is to promote osteopathy and the way they are doing it is to allow new schools to proliferate and getting an ass-load of DOs out there. (i don't agree with this, but that is what's happening.) yeah, they give some lip service to increasing spots, quality, and whatever for show. even if they were serious about it, the AOA could say whatever they want to and it wouldn't mean jack. hell, it hasn't to this point, has it? uncle sam controls the purse strings, uncle sam has the real power.

                  now, if the allopaths decided to stop taking DOs into their programs, well, THAT would really force the AOA to do something. the only conceivable way that could happen is if medicare (uncle again) tightened up to such an extent that the MDs barely had enough spots for their own. even then, there would be a big fight from the DOs.

                  i think it's important to realize why the guvvvvvment funded residencies in the first place. if you get this, you'll see how new residencies can and do come up. they funded residencies not because they wanted to be nice to doctors. it was primarily because they had a vested interest in making sure docs treated medicare clients. in return, the hospitals had the chance to pick up cheap, young doctors who were willing to work a lot of hours in exchange for training and a little (really little) money. in addition, the hospitals hoped to entice their best and brightest to stick around, build practices and ultimately add funding streams to the hospitals. finally, attendings got to sleep all night and bill for resident work in the morning. not a bad deal for hospitals right? sadly, a whole lot of hospitals took advantage of this and artificially ran up the number of training spots. now uncle has wisened up a bit because this practice added to the crazy amount of medicare fraud we docs perpetrated cost uncle a lot of bread.

                  anyway, none of this is to say that medicare has completely lost interest in funding positions in areas that are underserved. new residencies do open up. see again tu-nv. they ARE opening new residencies because las vegas is underserved. they opened up a new school there for the same reason. i can't see any good reason not to support this. this isn't the kind of new school we should be worried about. compare that with tu-ca. though i'm a grad, i think that's the kind we SHOULD be worried about.

                  like i said, new schools can be done...if they are done carefully.

                  -drgiggles
                   

                  Fantasy Sports

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                    DRGIGGLES said:
                    the fact is that the cost of opening DO programs is significantly less. why? it has nothing to do with altruism, concern for the profession, the number of residency spots, etc. on the allopathic side's part. and it has everything to do with greed and the desire to bolster numbers on the osteopathic side. (i'm an osteopath and i have no fear in saying this.)

                    i'm pretty sure the AOA has placed the goal of getting the number of DOs up above everything else at this point.

                    now, if the allopaths decided to stop taking DOs into their programs, well, THAT would really force the AOA to do something. the only conceivable way that could happen is if medicare (uncle again) tightened up to such an extent that the MDs barely had enough spots for their own. even then, there would be a big fight from the DOs.

                    I think it is understood that the AOA wants to have DOs graduating left and right, but what good is having a DO grad without a good residency program to train them in? The long-term cost of this strategy is that you have a) jobless DOs and b) less qualified DOs bringing negative publicity to the profession.

                    In effect, we become no different than law schools, which open up left and right, but don't necessarily guarantee a firm job. Furthermore, since there are so many law grads and less positions, you have a bunch of uncertified lawyers doing frivilous crap just to stay afloat (ie afternoon legal commercials). The last thing we as doctors need is an underclass of non-residency trained doctors who start doing sketchy stuff.

                    Its an interesting point about how the ACGME can actually help you guys out by blocking out DOs and forcing the AOA to think long and hard about its residency situation. Ultimately, at some point, there will be a backlash from the ACGME against the rising tide of DO schools being built without concurrent DO residency development. And unfortunately, that is absolutely terrible news for not only DOs, but the profession as a whole.

                    What the AOA is doing is going to seriously hurt the profession overall, and I hope you guys continue to pursue this issue as fervently as you do others in order to ensure that we dont become a bunch of trade schools/diploma mills.
                     

                    VUMD2be

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                      I will preface this by saying that I have not done nearly as much research on this subject as many of you seem to have done; nevertheless, it seems to me that one large x-factor which seems to be neglected in this thread is the fact (?-I believe this is true) that there are more US residency spots than US medical grads; hence the demand for the FMG/IMG. Won't a relatively small number of added DO grads from these "new" schools simply provide more competition for these foreign MDs? (provided that many of DOs apply for allopathic match)
                       

                      tkim

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                        Echinoidea said:
                        The way things are going in the DO world, soon DeVry will open a campus, and not long after that, you'll see Sally Struthers adveritsing on TV for a DO degree that you can complete from home.

                        ;)

                        You know that DeVry bought Ross University SOM - right?

                        http://www.devry.com/inc/news/nr031903.html
                         

                        DocRadak

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                          One of my professors down here at LECOMB mentioned that he was contacted to teach at a new school that SGU (or one of those off-shore med schools) was planning to open up in Wyoming. Could happen, there are no med schools in Wyoming and it is a very underserved area.
                           

                          tkim

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                            DocRadak said:
                            One of my professors down here at LECOMB mentioned that he was contacted to teach at a new school that SGU (or one of those off-shore med schools) was planning to open up in Wyoming. Could happen, there are no med schools in Wyoming and it is a very underserved area.

                            If you see Dr. Leo - tell him COMP 2007 says 'hi', and 'come back, please.'
                             

                            DocWagner

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                              Take it from a DO graduate...much of the problem with new DO programs opening up is the absolute LACK of dedicated clinical teaching faculty. Perhaps the biggest difference in MD and DO education is NOT OMT but rather the dedicated academic clinical faculty vs the volunteer faculty typically affiliated with DO clinical education.
                              For me, there was such a TREMENDOUS difference when you see the support many MD students have during their clinical years vs the lousy support I had. My medical school was a great school but there was essentially no quality control for clinical experiences in years 3 and 4 (many students went all over the country for rotations...now how can you guarantee that student A will be offered the same opportunties in didactics or training as student B?).
                              As an EM resident I can see the medical students here get weekly lectures just for them on EM topics AND recieve top notch residency guidance. I got ziltch and pretty much had to do everything myself.

                              We need QUALITY schools with QUALITY affiliations ...not schools in strip malls that just churn them out. It is a recipe for disaster.
                               

                              adennis

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                                I'm sorry, but from the bit of research I have done I have seen TONS of unfilled residencies in almost every area - not just primary care. This includes all MD residencies though... I can't speak to any DO residencies being unfilled because I haven't seen those stats.

                                I don't think we're going to be short of residencies anytime soon.

                                If someone has any other stats they'd like to bring to my attention to the contrary, I'd be happy to look at them.
                                 

                                dr.z

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                                  adennis said:
                                  I'm sorry, but from the bit of research I have done I have seen TONS of unfilled residencies in almost every area - not just primary care. This includes all MD residencies though... I can't speak to any DO residencies being unfilled because I haven't seen those stats.

                                  I don't think we're going to be short of residencies anytime soon.

                                  If someone has any other stats they'd like to bring to my attention to the contrary, I'd be happy to look at them.

                                  I think this is true though I don't have any supporting data. There are many foreign medical graduates that come to U.S. for residency. If there wasn't enough residency spots, there would be a lot less doctors coming from other countries. U.S. has priority to fill residency spot with U.S. trained physicians first and then offer rest to foreign graduates (according to my physician friend).
                                   
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