Any Non-trads considering Naturopathic Medicine??

[EastWestN2grt]

Just wondering from others in the group if anyone is considering Naturopathic medicine, instead of the 'usual' MD or DO schools?

The average age at the 5 ND schools is between 29-32, so non-trad types are actually the 'TRADITIONAL' types at these schools.

Also, the maturity (a very big generalization) and life experience of non-trads IMO make for a nicer 'package', which in my experience, patients-especially since many who see an ND or NMD, are paying out of pocket-look for in a doctor.

And lastly, the fact that an ND, NMD can start practicing after the four years of med school, and is not required to go through a residency(although some states are now starting to require residency post-doc work) might make it more appealing to those who are concerned about spending all those years in residency. Most NDs practice as generalists, so don't really need the residency.

One more thing, there are only about +/- 3000 Naturopathic physicians in the US, so there is LOTS of potential to make $$$$$. Just as an anecdote from my area of the world-Southern Cali. There are only a handful in the whole of Los Angeles, and their practices are BUSY!! I know because I am a Licensed Acupuncturist (enrolled as a post-bacc pre-med student and trying to get into western allo school or naturo school) and I work with, and am friends with quite a few of them. Their practices are booked. And like I said earlier, most of the patients pay out of pocket.

By the way, for those who do not know:
NDs are licensed physicians in approx. 14 states(including Cali, and more look to be licensing soon like NY), Washington DC and Puerto Rico and in some Canadian provinces. They have a pretty broad scope of practice including many integrative or complimentary therapies. They also have certain prescription rights, and can perform minor in-office surgery. They are IMO the ideal future primary-care physician.

Just wondering???

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[MoosePilot]

A what? Herbalist? No, I want to be a doctor.

 

[EastWestN2grt]

A what? Herbalist? No, I want to be a doctor.

Educate yourself before you speak...Ignorance will get you nowhere. And we definetely do not need anymore closed minded doctors.

As I said earlier NDs are licensed PHYSICIANS. Herbal MEDICINE is a modality they can use, as well as pharmaceuticals..

 

[MoosePilot]

Educate yourself before you speak...Ignorance will get you nowhere. And we definetely do not need anymore closed minded doctors.

As I said earlier NDs are licensed PHYSICIANS. Herbal MEDICINE is a modality they can use, as well as pharmaceuticals..

Licensed physicians in Cali. How's the pot situation out there? That state has shown what they will license and they have no credibility with me.

 

[MoosePilot]

http://skepdic.com/natpathy.html

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Naturopathy/naturopathy.html

How do you feel about homeopathic remedies?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

i live in a city with a big naturopathic school, and naturopath's are licensed here. honestly, i thought about it for like two seconds, but now i'm not interested at all. from a practical standpoint, not being able to be licensed in anything but 14 states is a huge problem for me. also, in the states where they can be licensed, there are tons of them. here, in portland, i see ads from nd's on the back page of every paper, and i'd guess that lots of them aren't doing well. also, traditionally, naturopathy doesn't seem to be as scientific as i'd like. so, it's just not a good fit for me.

 

[njbmd]

Just wondering from others in the group if anyone is considering Naturopathic medicine, instead of the 'usual' MD or DO schools?

[Big SNIP]

By the way, for those who do not know:
NDs are licensed physicians in approx. 14 states(including Cali, and more look to be licensing soon like NY), Washington DC and Puerto Rico and in some Canadian provinces. They have a pretty broad scope of practice including many integrative or complimentary therapies. They also have certain prescription rights, and can perform minor in-office surgery. They are IMO the ideal future primary-care physician.

Just wondering???

Hi there,
Naturopathic medicine is one of the complimentary or alternative medicine disciplines that has become popular in the past few years along with acupuncture and others. Some allopathic/osteopathic physicians have chosen to incorporate alternative medicine techniques within their practices. Many medical schools will have courses that outline alternative medical techniqes and how they may be used. Most, but not all, of the alternative medicine practices take advantage of the "placebo effect" or the faith/money of the patient.

There is a division of NIH that attempted to classify and study some alternative medical techniqes and their usefulness or non-utility in the practice of medicine today (Division of Alternative and Complimentary Medicine). You can do a search on the NIH website and read some of their findings especially before you spend money for tuition for training.

Lot's of disciplines out there take advantage of the term "physician" so "Consumer Beware". At least NIH did spend some of your tax dollars to investigate some of these disciplines and practices.

njbmd

 

[cfdavid]

Educate yourself before you speak...Ignorance will get you nowhere. And we definetely do not need anymore closed minded doctors.

As I said earlier NDs are licensed PHYSICIANS. Herbal MEDICINE is a modality they can use, as well as pharmaceuticals..

I was just talking to a guy in AZ that is an ND. I had NO idea they can prescribe, according to the state. He's making a ton of cash right now, and loves it.

I have mixed feelings on over emphasizing "natural" remedies though. I don't see much difference in prefering Willow Bark over aspirin. Many of the working agents used in pharma are derived from what is already made in nature. It's just that pharma isolates, and extracts these agents to make it simply easier and more efficacious. Also, it goes through FDA trials, and clinical dosages are studied and recommended.
Much of this does not apply to herbs etc. (from my understanding)

So, in some ways, it seems like capitalizing on a somewhat ignorant public that, admittedly, has a preference for "natural" remedies.

Not sure. However, I am NOT suggesting these people are not well trained or educated.

I DO think it could be an interesting career with many great opportunities though.

 

[cfdavid]

One more thing to add is that many MD's (I'm sure DO's as well) are gravitating towards this field due to the financial opportunities. My dad asked my about this stuff after he returned from a vacation.

He was on a plane talking to an MD surgeon, and this guy was shifting gears and taking naturopathic courses in order to start such a practice. It seemed that his motivation was mainly financial and due to liabilities etc.
He indicated that he was not alone amongst the MD community.

 

[Dr Who]

A what? Herbalist? No, I want to be a doctor.

Moose, leave the herbalists alone, go bother the DO's or something

 

[MoosePilot]

Moose, leave the herbalists alone, go bother the DO's or something

I actually think DOs have a lot to offer and I'd be proud to be an Osteopathic physician. Scientific method applied to healthcare... what a concept.

Weirdo alternative medicine fans like to point out their arts have been around for umpteen years, while modern Western medicine is a newcomer. Isn't it amazing how the average life expectance has coincidentally increased in that relatively short time span? All these ancient medical arts had their chance and they didn't work well enough. Why go back to something that didn't work all that well?

 

[atrovariousg]

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM..... How bout no ok??????????????
http://www.angelfire.com/on/AustinPowers/DEP.html

 

[EastWestN2grt]

I actually think DOs have a lot to offer and I'd be proud to be an Osteopathic physician. Scientific method applied to healthcare... what a concept.

Weirdo alternative medicine fans like to point out their arts have been around for umpteen years, while modern Western medicine is a newcomer. Isn't it amazing how the average life expectance has coincidentally increased in that relatively short time span? All these ancient medical arts had their chance and they didn't work well enough. Why go back to something that didn't work all that well?

Bullwinkle, you continue to amaze me at how clueless and closed-minded you really sound in your posts. Lets look at a few items:

1. The great thing about Cali is that what happens in Cali, WILL happen in the rest of the country--one day. We set the trend for the rest of the country(most especially the land locked states). NDs are only in 14 states, true. But their influence has increased because of consumers. And soon enough, you will be seeing NDs practicing, in whatever backwood community you call home. In fact they are probably already there.

2. Osteopathic medicine and Naturopathic medicine have very similar histories. They both were born of the same backlash against the allopathic profession about 150 years ago. Both professions had tremendous success up until the turn of the century, and then both professions were attacked by the MDs until both professions almost died. The DOs did a heck of a lot better surviving the early part of the century than the NDs, and they have continued to thrive. And are now succesfully integrated into all aspects of modern healthcare. The NDs almost completely died out, until the resurgence of their medicine(again consumer driven) in the last 30 years of the 20th century. The NDs also realigned their curriculum and made it a science-based curriculum-the same science curriculum you will find at a DO or MD school, with MDs, DOs, NDs, PhDs teaching these courses, many who came from MD/DO schools. To say you would be "proud" to be a DO, makes me realize you are a complete conformist. If this discussion were taking place 40 years ago, Im sure you would be just as against the DOs as you are now against the NDs.

4. You really need to get your facts straight and go research a bit harder (and please dont get all your INFORMATION from that stupid quackwatch website. Do a search on Osteopathic medicine, and they have quite a few quakwatch updates on the DOs. Even today when they are absolute equals with MDs. The founder of that sight is just a close-minded old fart who really needs to retire already- and let medicine progress.) While modern allopathic medicine has greatly improved many, many areas of medicine. They have failed miserably in the treatment of chronic diseases, and at the same time has generally failed miserably at patient care. The reason why people spend in upwards of 27 billion dollars* on complimentary medicine, and at the same time have more visits to complimentary medicine practitioners than to their own primary-care physicians*(*these are facts you can research on your own)is because many of these modalities work, and at the same time patients get the 'time' with these practitioners that they do not get with their MDs. .

And I am specifically talking about EVIDENCE BASED complimentary medicine. Contrary to what you might believe, Evidence-based complimentary medicine is becoming mainstream medicine. I am a licensed Acupuncturist in LA, and I get to see first hand the integration and cooperation between MDs/DOs/NDs/LAc/etc. Its happening in clinics, hospitals, insurance, every aspect of medicine. It is a better form of medicine, and it is undoubtedly the future of medicine, and NDs will play a big role in this new medical paradigm. Essentially the ones who really get to benefit are the patients. If in your mind educated, successful men and women from all different cultures and industries who use alternative medicine are 'weirdos', then hey, I'd much rather be a weirdo, than a close-minded, bull-headed bullwinkle.

By the way, I am trying to get into either a DO or ND school because I feel passionate enough about this new direction of medicine to spend another 4+ years in school, and lots of $$$ to be a complete practitioner-Integrating the best of Eastern medicine and the best of Western medicine, and hopefully changing a few closed minds on the way.

 

[EastWestN2grt]

Hi there,
There is a division of NIH that attempted to classify and study some alternative medical techniqes and their usefulness or non-utility in the practice of medicine today (Division of Alternative and Complimentary Medicine). You can do a search on the NIH website and read some of their findings especially before you spend money for tuition for training.

Lot's of disciplines out there take advantage of the term "physician" so "Consumer Beware". At least NIH did spend some of your tax dollars to investigate some of these disciplines and practices.

njbmd

Initially, back in 1991(?) when the NIH first started the office of Alternative medicine, now called the Division of Alternative and Complimentary Medicine, the allotted budget was 2 million. A miniscule drop in the bucket of research funding. The alloted budget today is now >100 million. You should more correctly say the NIH is 'spending' money on research into evidence -based complimentary medicine(not in the past tense). While the money is no where near the funding of pharmaceutical drugs(with the big$$$$ from Pharma industry), and it probably never will be because it is in direct competition with Pharma, the funding and interet continues to grow-led by consumer interest.

While, yes there are disciplines out there who do take advantage of the term physician, I dont think it is fair to say this about the NDs. These are big, powerful, progressive states that are allowing licensure-not just some hippie communes . In the case of Cali, the debate for licensure of NDs was a very long, and difficult one. And you can imagine the Cali Med Assoc. was very against the proposal. But there was enough support for the profession(and the significant strives they have made in a science-based medicine curriculum) that licensure happened. Thus they can diagnose, order tests, and treat disease(primarily using natural therapeutics but with certain pharma privileges) as licensed physicians.

Its funny, DOs are so accepted today, but I know that this same discussion about the validity of Osteopathic medicine was probably taking place 50-60 years ago, by the established medical community. I believe 50-60 years from now NDs will be just as recognized and cherished as an integral part of medicine as the MD/DO professions. And then this discussion will seem pointless....

 

[EastWestN2grt]

The in-office "minor surgeries" are wart removal, splinter removal, and sewing up a cut - not an overly spectacular feat.

some, if not all of these symptoms are severe and require a fully licensed MD or DO to address.

As far as prescription privelages, it appears NDs are limited to herbalistics, not pharmaceuticals.

I may really sound harsh here, but it's groups like this that decide they are experts in all areas of medicine and end up doing more harm than good. There is a reason there are less than 3000 NDs in America.

.

An ND education is a generalist education. Talk to any primary care MD or DO and ask what types on "in-office" surgery they perform and they will tell you the same -wart removal, splinter removal, and sewing up a cut

An ND education is the same science curriculum as the MD and DO-(check out Bastyr Univ. or Southwest College of Naturopathic med), and just as any MD/DO GP when a disease is too complex they refer out.

Prescription privileges: keep looking, while NDs usually use natural therapeutics first, they do have prescription priveleges-but not as complete as an MD/DO.

The biggest reason there are only 3000 NDs is because they were almost driven to extinction by the MDs, and their schools closed(just like the DOs were almost driven to extinction by the MDs). The number of practitioners are increasing dramatically since the 1970s when Bastyr University was founded.

'I may really sound harsh here, but it's groups like this that decide they are experts in all areas of medicine and end up doing more harm than good.'--Go and find how much 'Harm' complimentary practioners have done on patients, and then turn around and do a search of the 'Harm' done by MDs. There is absolutely no comparison, and it is ignorant to say so..

 

[Sundarban1]

No, thanks for asking!
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/AlternativeMedicine/tb/1609

 

[Doctor Bagel]

No, thanks for asking!
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/AlternativeMedicine/tb/1609

your link is a bit unfair because it deals only with homeopathy, which does appear to not meet scientific muster. however, nd's aren't necessarily homeopaths, and i imagine tons of them don't use homeopathic treatment at all. homeopathy has been viewed with suspicion in the alternative medical community for years, so this study isn't really a big surprise to me.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Sort of an aside here, but I think it's great that California decided to license nd's because that allows some regulation of the field. In Oregon, nd's have been licensed for a long time, which means that you know that an nd here went to a four year post-graduate accredited school and completed licensing requirement. In states without licensing, a person can get a naturopathic degree online (they exist scarily enough) in like four months and claim they're an nd. Regardless of how one feels about the merits of naturopathy, the public is much better served by knowing at least that they're visiting people who've had extensive education.

 

[1Path]

Its funny, DOs are so accepted today, but I know that this same discussion about the validity of Osteopathic medicine was probably taking place 50-60 years ago, by the established medical community. I believe 50-60 years from now NDs will be just as recognized and cherished as an integral part of medicine as the MD/DO professions. And then this discussion will seem pointless....

Actually, it was 20 years ago that I remember MD's calling DO's quacks.

I for one, am thinking about at least getting a Master's in this area to COMPLIMENT my future MD degree.

 

[Daddydoc]

There was a naturopath here in the area who was doing bowel cleansings on his patients. Unfortunately, he reused the water and gave his patients severe diarrhea. His patients then had to see real doctors to be treated. I'm not going to say that naturopaths shouldn't exist, but they need to be regulated and not allowed to mess with things they don't understand. If they want to recommend herbs for people, fine. They should not be doing procedures when they don't understand the impact they may have.

 

[mshheaddoc]

I agree with the above poster. I think complimentary medicine is a support mechanism to medicine. I do not see how they will ever be on the same lines of an MD/DO unless they have the same training. By training I'm referring to residency and experience. Just because you did a few months of rounding doesn't make you and expert in certain fields of medicine.

I am interested in complimentary medicine and have researched some of the programs but as a medical professional I have my doubts. DO's have always had the same requirements of MD's, ND's have nowhere near the requirements that MD's/DO's have.

***EDIT: clarify - my doubts as a medical professional is on complimentary medicine techniques and placebo effects. I believe some things can help but I feel that the naturalistic part of medicine sometimes is pushed without any proof. There are many aspects of medicine that are unexplored which is why I am fascinated. You can do so much and maybe finding treatments for others that are "more natural" can help patients of the future.

Also, training is a big part of a physician. With residencies in which you are working under a seasoned and license professional your every move is monitored and is a learning experience. To be "dispensing" medications, even if just natural medications, with minimal experience really frightens me. The volume of material you have to comprehend in med school then learn ot regurgate takes time and practice. I suppose I'm not questioning the field more than just questioning the training of their professionals and having themselves called "physicians" and "doctors". This is coming from someone who will persuing allopathic and osteopathic institutions so I am no biased on one or the other.

As for the comments on more doctors are getting into it, yes its for money and also to find new treatments for diseases. Additionally since there are minimal FDA guidelines, anything pretty much goes in ways of recommending treatments. Oh and its mostly all out of pocket so if you're willing to pay, they're willing to see you

 

[Beau Geste]

I agree with the above poster. I think complimentary medicine is a support mechanism to medicine. I do not see how they will ever be on the same lines of an MD/DO unless they have the same training. By training I'm referring to residency and experience. Just because you did a few months of rounding doesn't make you and expert in certain fields of medicine.

I am interested in complimentary medicine and have researched some of the programs but as a medical professional I have my doubts. DO's have always had the same requirements of MD's, ND's have nowhere near the requirements that MD's/DO's have.

Hear, hear! This is an excellent post.

 

[EastWestN2grt]

Hear, hear! This is an excellent post.

Welcome back Megboo-I thought you had deserted this thread.

Yes, I agree with almost everything Dr. Alias had to say, but not everything.

First of all, lets clarify a few things. There are two types of Naturopathic practitioners-1. Licensed physicians, who go through 4 years of med school-same didactic course work as MDs/DOs, who work either independently or in integrative medical settings in states that license them. 2. Naturopaths who get their training from online courses, and are not licensed whatsoever adn can practice in any other state.

Type 1 are the NDs I am specifically talking about. They as a profession have worked hard over the past twenty plus years to validate their abilities as docotors of naturopathic medicine, using science and evidence based medicine. Type 2 are unlicensed, untrained and IMO dangerous. Enough said about them.

I actually believe the interest in the use of complimentary therapies by MDs/DOs is partially fueled by the desire for more $$$$. I mean why not, it makes sense to treat not ONLY sick patients, but also healthy patients to try to prevent illness. It doubles the income, GREAT!!. But I do realize from personal experience with many of these neo-complimentary MDs/DOs that there is something deeper. (to be continued since my computer session is expired).....

 

[EastWestN2grt]

But money is not the only reason. As a student in an Acupuncture and Trad. Chinese Medical school, in my classes were about 10 physicians(MDs) who were back in school for another 3 years to learn this Asian medicine. I talked with many of them about their reasons for returning to school to study a complimentary form of medicine, and all of them without question simply fely dissatisfied with the current allopathic medical model iin this country. Medicine to them(and I am certain many of you pre-meds will get to this point one day as well)became nothing more than Pharma drugs and surgery. Modalities with a lot of potential dangers--(btw.. while many natural herbs can also be very toxic, which is why it is important for patients to go to a trained practitioner instead of self-prescribing, the toxicity of herbs is for the most part very small compared to most Pharma). They disliked having very limited (less-toxic) choices to offer their patients, and just as importantly these physicians felt modern medicine was missing the very important doctor/patient interaction. Let me give you an idea of the difference. When a new patient comes to see me, I spend an average of one hour in the room with the patient, doing patient intake/questioning, as well as treatment. Returning patients I see approx. 30-45 minutes. Most MDs/DOs spend maybe a good 15 minutes, if that, with patients. And guess, what patients notice that.

I think these doctors were really just looking for a new way of practicing medicine. In essence making it better--I believe in science, and evidence based medicine and believe it is an essential part of modern medicine. But there is also a need to bring humanism back into medicine--thus the use of less toxic, natural evidence based therapies, and the revival of the doctor/patient relationship. This is necessary, and I am sure some of you in the not to distant future will also realize this need as a physician...

 

[EastWestN2grt]

BTW. There was an informal survey done a few yeasr back at a University back east--Boston U comes to mind, but I cant remember exactly--I will try to look it up again....

Anyway, the survey asked of pateints who see both MDs, and complimentary practitioners(DCs, Acupuncturists, Massage therapists, etc.) what their favorite part of their respective visits were:

When seeing their comp practitioners the favorite moment was arriving at the office.

When seeing an MD their favorite moment was leaving the office.

There is definitely need for improvement...

 

[Beau Geste]

Welcome back Megboo-I thought you had deserted this thread.

Yes, I agree with almost everything Dr. Alias had to say, but not everything.

First of all, lets clarify a few things. There are two types of Naturopathic practitioners-1. Licensed physicians, who go through 4 years of med school-same didactic course work as MDs/DOs, who work either independently or in integrative medical settings in states that license them. 2. Naturopaths who get their training from online courses, and are not licensed whatsoever adn can practice in any other state.

Type 1 are the NDs I am specifically talking about. They as a profession have worked hard over the past twenty plus years to validate their abilities as docotors of naturopathic medicine, using science and evidence based medicine. Type 2 are unlicensed, untrained and IMO dangerous. Enough said about them.

I actually believe the interest in the use of complimentary therapies by MDs/DOs is partially fueled by the desire for more $$$$. I mean why not, it makes sense to treat not ONLY sick patients, but also healthy patients to try to prevent illness. It doubles the income, GREAT!!. But I do realize from personal experience with many of these neo-complimentary MDs/DOs that there is something deeper. (to be continued since my computer session is expired).....

Yeah, I had to spend more time figuring out some class-related stuff instead of reading extraneous topics.

Did you ever think about writing a brochure about the ND degree? It sounds as if you are trying to "sell" it to the pre-med population.

 

[mshheaddoc]

First of all, lets clarify a few things. There are two types of Naturopathic practitioners-1. Licensed physicians, who go through 4 years of med school-same didactic course work as MDs/DOs, who work either independently or in integrative medical settings in states that license them. 2. Naturopaths who get their training from online courses, and are not licensed whatsoever and can practice in any other state.

Type 1 are the NDs I am specifically talking about.

Well, Dr. Alias was ALSO talking about the same type of licensed physicians They have nowhere NEAR the training of a MD/DO with residency training. You will not find many doctors out there who are practicing (NOT IN ACADEMIA) who haven't done residency. Yes I know some who have used the MD/DO for other routes and skipped residency but none of them practice. And many of them also had to figure out how to pay the $200K debt off with their pharm/law degree.

They as a profession have worked hard over the past twenty plus years to validate their abilities as doctors of naturopathic medicine, using science and evidence based medicine. Type 2 are unlicensed, untrained and IMO dangerous. Enough said about them.

Can I ask how you can distinguish between a Type 1 and Type 2? If they both have ND's? From how you described they get the same initials

I found one site Bridgeport that shows mostly academic credit with minimal clinical hours (54 days worth of clinical experience). Compared to say 660 days?

Or how about two hundred more hours of actually class/clinic time? Just one example of school - not many break it out by hours I'm not saying they don't go to school but its a fact that most people "learn" how to use medicine while in residency. I would just have an issue with someone who went to school for 36 hrs of pediatrics trying to tell me something if they haven't been practicing very long in pediatrics with NO experience.

I actually believe the interest in the use of complimentary therapies by MDs/DOs is partially fueled by the desire for more $$$$. I mean why not, it makes sense to treat not ONLY sick patients, but also healthy patients to try to prevent illness. It doubles the income, GREAT!!.

Do you understand preventive medicine? The new "fad"? This isn't just money its also using medical technology and information in order to prevent unnecessary medical treatment.

But I do realize from personal experience with many of these neo-complimentary MDs/DOs that there is something deeper. (to be continued since my computer session is expired).....

But money is not the only reason. As a student in an Acupuncture and Trad. Chinese Medical school, in my classes were about 10 physicians(MDs) who were back in school for another 3 years to learn this Asian medicine. I talked with many of them about their reasons for returning to school to study a complimentary form of medicine, and all of them without question simply fely dissatisfied with the current allopathic medical model iin this country. Medicine to them(and I am certain many of you pre-meds will get to this point one day as well)became nothing more than Pharma drugs and surgery. Modalities with a lot of potential dangers--(btw.. while many natural herbs can also be very toxic, which is why it is important for patients to go to a trained practitioner instead of self-prescribing, the toxicity of herbs is for the most part very small compared to most Pharma). They disliked having very limited (less-toxic) choices to offer their patients, and just as importantly these physicians felt modern medicine was missing the very important doctor/patient interaction. Let me give you an idea of the difference. When a new patient comes to see me, I spend an average of one hour in the room with the patient, doing patient intake/questioning, as well as treatment. Returning patients I see approx. 30-45 minutes. Most MDs/DOs spend maybe a good 15 minutes, if that, with patients. And guess, what patients notice that.

Ok, #1, don't generalize MD/DO to make your ND look better. I know a few doctors who spend 30mins AT LEAST with each patient ever visit. Then again my old primary saw me for about 10 mins on avg every time I was in there. They vary and depends on "how they are paid".

Doctors are trying to find other forms of medicine for the same reasons others do. To try to find new methods of treatment. As I stated, there are many undiscovered aspects of medicine. You also noted these were LICENSED professionals looking for "additional" training. You just proved my point. Thanks

I think these doctors were really just looking for a new way of practicing medicine. In essence making it better--I believe in science, and evidence based medicine and believe it is an essential part of modern medicine. But there is also a need to bring humanism back into medicine--thus the use of less toxic, natural evidence based therapies, and the revival of the doctor/patient relationship. This is necessary, and I am sure some of you in the not to distant future will also realize this need as a physician...

And that will also be why some of us will seek out "complimentary medicine degrees" such as the MS at Georgetown University or might take up acupuncture. Etc.

BTW. There was an informal survey done a few years back at a University back east--Boston U comes to mind, but I cant remember exactly--I will try to look it up again....

Anyway, the survey asked of patients who see both MDs, and complimentary practitioners(DCs, Acupuncturists, Massage therapists, etc.) what their favorite part of their respective visits were:

When seeing their comp practitioners the favorite moment was arriving at the office.

When seeing an MD their favorite moment was leaving the office.

There is definitely need for improvement...

NO **** sherlock. Who LIKES being in the doctors office? I want to be a doctor and I'm the happiest when I leave with meds when I've been feeling ****ty and waiting for 30 mins to see my doctor! I just love informal surveys. What exactly are you trying to prove?

When you can come back to me with "hard facts" on ND I'll talk to you. But you are just annoying me now. Spouting out all this information to bash the medical profession on how naturalistic medicine is better. You aren't convincing me at all that I'm taking the wrong route by doing medicine first and complimentary medicine second. Not that was your purpose but it sure sounds as if what you are trying here for. Not that I can ask for proof because as I've reiterated here there are MANY things that we don't know about medicine. Which is why alternative treatments are being embraces. I really just don't like the way you are coming across in this thread. I also don't see you being open-minded or not judgmental at all.

I'm all for naturalistic medicine but I want scientific knowledge with someone who actually understands and has experience in a particular specialty (whether its IM, OB/GYN, FP, etc). Some things work
in mysterious ways and hopefully in the future we will have a greater understanding. But I'm sorry if I don't necessarily believe that an ND is along the same instances of a doctor. I suppose the idea of lack of training (if ND is your ONLY training) is a scary thought. As I have reiterated a few times and you have yet to refute.

 

[Sundarban1]

Eye of newt cures PMS symptoms..carry on..

 

[nontrad314]

I find the majority of binary oppositions as problematic as I find stereotypes.

But correct me if I'm wrong, in a nutshell, evidence based / double blind / the biomedical paradigm amounts to systematic = reproducible.

The antithesis of systematic is random.

How is random translated into humanism? I fail to make the connection.

These are orthogonal / mutually exclusive qualities?

An individual can practice systematically (or otherwise) and can do so in a compassionate manner (or otherwise).

At some point in the process individuals are accountable for their actions.

At some point the treatment is accountable for any associated cure, relief, secondaries, or complications.

At some point, the importance of practices stem from whether they are systematic, reproducible, and regulated or not.

 

[EastWestN2grt]

Yeah, I had to spend more time figuring out some class-related stuff instead of reading extraneous topics.

Did you ever think about writing a brochure about the ND degree? It sounds as if you are trying to "sell" it to the pre-med population.

Lets look back at my original reason for this thread, shall we..... I asked simply if their were any non-trads interested in Naturopathic medicine, as an option outside of the MD/DO degrees.

IN states where they are licensed, Naturopathic medicine makes a great option for anyone interested in medicine, especially non-trads, who may not necessarily want to go the MD/DO route. I was looking for likeminded people, but instead it seems I have attracted all the disciples of Quackwatch.

And no Crosby, Im not trying to sell s**t, just clarify some misconceptions. I know about NDs because I have worked with them frequently in Cali. And in my experience they are very accepted by the MD, and DO community-with frequent cross-referals.

BTW, if it doesnt interest you, dont read and reply. Very simple....

 

[Sundarban1]

BTW, if it doesnt interest you, dont read and reply. Very simple....

Yeh, well last time I checked this was a public message board. Don't be offended when someone tries to call out your trying to pass off herbalism as an alternative route to traditional Western medicine.

Don't have have a tiger to poach somewhere?

 

[EastWestN2grt]

I'm all for naturalistic medicine but I want scientific knowledge with someone who actually understands and has experience in a particular specialty (whether its IM, OB/GYN, FP, etc). Some things work
in mysterious ways and hopefully in the future we will have a greater understanding. But I'm sorry if I don't necessarily believe that an ND is along the same instances of a doctor. I suppose the idea of lack of training (if ND is your ONLY training) is a scary thought. As I have reiterated a few times and you have yet to refute.

Im going to try to make this as simple as possible, since I just wrote a long reply, and my computer froze up on me, and erased it.

It really comes down to this........
If the lawmakers and legislators of a particular state, province, etc., etc. have decided, or do decide that based on the evidence presented to them by both supporters and opponents of the profession, that Naturopathic physicians can legally practice as primary care physicians in the state then we as consumers have to accept it. It doesnt mean we have to GO to them. It is up to the individual consumer. If I decide that I would prefer to see an ND as my primary care physician then I now have that right, and licensure will indicate a level of competence necessary for that ND to practice. Other consumers will decide an MD/or DO is better in their preference and so they choose as such.

I personally would prefer going to a DO school over both an MD, or ND school. And when I graduate I want to practice family medicine with an emphasis on Integrative/Complimentary medicine. I will attract a certain patient base. Others in this forum who also decide family medicine and will also have their own unique 'specialties', and thus attract their own patients. It is our patients right to pick and choose the best practitioners for thier respective needs. As a DO in California, I will gladly work in cooperation with NDs cross-referring when necessary. Many of you responding in this thread(as of now being pre-meds)would not work in cooperation with NDs. It is your right and prerogative as a future physician.

I am now beyond trying to go one-on-one with any of you to try and influence your opinions towars greater acceptance of NDs as equal and compotent medical colleagues because each of us will have our own life experiences. Some of you may never even have the opportunity to interact with NDs while others will have a lot of opportunities(including myself), and so my opinion through experience has led me to be supportive of the profession.

Some of you may not even be very supportive of DOs, and instead hold a very elitist viewpoint of medicine(only MDs). So be it, Im glad most legislators, at least in my state, were more accepting of complimentary medicine. It offers me lots more options as a consumer. I love being able to go see a chiropractor, licensed acupuncturist, Ostopathic physician that practices crani-sacral therapy, ND,etc. etc. Like many in my state, I prefer having options.

So be it. Each of us are on similar paths, and maybe one day if we cross human paths we can have a civilized discussion as med students or physicians on the value of complimentary medicine in modern medical treatment. But until then, Im tired of fighting.. Cant we ALL JUST GET ALONG.....

 

[mshheaddoc]

Lets look back at my original reason for this thread, shall we..... I asked simply if their were any non-trads interested in Naturopathic medicine, as an option outside of the MD/DO degrees.

IN states where they are licensed, Naturopathic medicine makes a great option for anyone interested in medicine, especially non-trads, who may not necessarily want to go the MD/DO route. I was looking for likeminded people, but instead it seems I have attracted all the disciples of Quackwatch.

And no Crosby, Im not trying to sell s**t, just clarify some misconceptions. I know about NDs because I have worked with them frequently in Cali. And in my experience they are very accepted by the MD, and DO community-with frequent cross-referals.

BTW, if it doesnt interest you, dont read and reply. Very simple....

I never said it was quackwatch. I'm actually asking for verification on it if you have read any of my posts. Yes they are useful but you just seem to pick and choose. I voiced concern over training techniques. I am actually very interested in this topic.

 

[EastWestN2grt]

I never said it was quackwatch. I'm actually asking for verification on it if you have read any of my posts. Yes they are useful but you just seem to pick and choose. I voiced concern over training techniques. I am actually very interested in this topic.

Sorry for lashing out. Very un-Confucious like of me...

To be honest, my own biggest concern with the ND profession is the lack of residency training. It is why, personally I would much prefer to study Osteopathic medicine than Naturopathic medicine. But what I have heard is that the profession is working hard on trying to remedy the problem by creating new residency programs either clinical and in some states like Arizona and Wahington hospital residencies. I dont know enough of the specifics, but will ask a friend(an ND) who I will meet on the 16th.

AS far as the difference between NDs in licensed and unlicensed states, it goes like this.
In licensed states, Naturopathic physicians(NDs) are required to have completed 4 years of medical school including didactic coursework similar to MDs/DOs, and a specific amount of clinical training approximately 1100 hours of clinical work(based on Bastyr Univ. requirements). Then they are requred to take a medical examination (NPLEX part 1 and 2) to be able to practice as primary care physicians.

In unlicensed states people can call themselves NDs, or naturopaths with only a few months correspondence course, like Clayton college. Without licensure there is no may to regulate these practices, which is why I said they are dangerous.

Any other questions, please ask and I will try to answer as best as I can.....

 

[EastWestN2grt]

Yeh, well last time I checked this was a public message board. Don't be offended when someone tries to call out your trying to pass off herbalism as an alternative route to traditional Western medicine.

Don't have have a tiger to poach somewhere?

Actually, tiger penis was used as a natural viagra. Just in case you were too shy to ask my professional advice.

BTW, the use of tiger is illegal in the US, so you might have to find it in the Chinese black market.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Sorry for lashing out. Very un-Confucious like of me...

To be honest, my own biggest concern with the ND profession is the lack of residency training. It is why, personally I would much prefer to study Osteopathic medicine than Naturopathic medicine. But what I have heard is that the profession is working hard on trying to remedy the problem by creating new residency programs either clinical and in some states like Arizona and Wahington hospital residencies. I dont know enough of the specifics, but will ask a friend(an ND) who I will meet on the 16th.

AS far as the difference between NDs in licensed and unlicensed states, it goes like this.
In licensed states, Naturopathic physicians(NDs) are required to have completed 4 years of medical school including didactic coursework similar to MDs/DOs, and a specific amount of clinical training approximately 1100 hours of clinical work(based on Bastyr Univ. requirements). Then they are requred to take a medical examination (NPLEX part 1 and 2) to be able to practice as primary care physicians.

In unlicensed states people can call themselves NDs, or naturopaths with only a few months correspondence course, like Clayton college. Without licensure there is no may to regulate these practices, which is why I said they are dangerous.

Any other questions, please ask and I will try to answer as best as I can.....

Gotcha. Thanks for the info. See it seems we share the same concerns (about residency and also the lack of clinical hours which I pointed out comparing an MD vs ND school).

Have you heard of any "fellowships" in an ND route? Like a back door to be certified ND if you are MD/DO? With this field growing I'm sure regulation (or at least hope) would come out of this. Although I find it amusing that pharm is one of the most regulated industries yet natural organic remedies aren't (which I belive there was talk withing the FDA to extend this? Any truth to this?)

I suppose just informing the public would make a great alternative to spreading the word about alternative medicine than just using drugs. Although alternative medicine interest has increased, I find it as a common person very hard to understand as there is alot of conflicting information on different herbs/supplements etc. Although this alternative medicine would be nice for those who can't afford the $100 for a 30 day supply of blood pressure medicine if there is a natural cheaper alternative!

 

[EastWestN2grt]

Just an intersting email I received:

Additional comments from Dr. Mark Hyman:

The future of healthcare and the future of integrative medicine are intimately intertwined. A consumer tsunami of interest and spending in this area cannot be turned back.

Over $55 billion is spent in the natural products area alone: $17 billion on dietary supplements, $11 billion on natural and organic foods, $4 billion on natural personal care products and $18 billion on functional foods. Combined with over $30 billion in spending on alternative or integrative medical care, consumers are asking for something different. More than 30 university medical centers now have research, education and/or clinical programs in integrative medicine. NIH funding through the NCCAM continues to increase. Conventional physicians are adopting practices once seen to be alternative, including fish oil for heart disease prevention and glucosamine for osteoarthritis.

The health conditions afflicting Americans are predominately lifestyle diseases caused by our poor diet, sedentary lifestyle and excessive stress. By necessity, the future of medicine will be integrative medicine Ð a disciple that puts primary importance on prevention and health promotion. As Andrew Weil once said, the terms "integrative, complementary, alternative" are transitional terms that will all one day be the basis of "good medicine".

William Frist, MD, Senate Majority Leader, in the Shattuck Lecture, "Health Care in the 21st Century," outlined a vision of medicine espousing the fundamental principles of CAM/Integrative Medicine: a patient-centered, consumer driven, provider-friendly, personalized medicine that will pre-empt illness and prolong life. The future of integrative medicine is the future of medicine.

Enjoy,

Mark Hyman,
MD Editor in Chief
Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine
Medical Editor

 

[Beau Geste]

I am suspicious of your zeal for naturopathic medicine and complete disdain for allopathic. You have been repeatedly asked to provide concrete evidence to support your claims but have given only anecdotal evidence, plus a letter from the editor in chief of the "Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine". Please provide peer-reviewed, non-biased scientific evidence. I am asking for this in black and white print.

I would like to see evidence of research studies supported by federal/state grants, not private funding by a naturopathic society. NON-BIASED reporting, in other words.

And who is Crosby? You must be referring to JIMMY BUFFETT (avatar). Blasphemy! Someone's getting a little bit touchy.......

 

[EastWestN2grt]

And who is Crosby? You must be referring to JIMMY BUFFETT (avatar). Blasphemy! Someone's getting a little bit touchy.......

My deepest apologies towards offense of Maestro Buffett. Although the avatar does look a bit like the young David Crosby.

How about we all have a few margaritas and CHILLLLLLL........

Just like others in this forum who may have a strong pull towards surgery, ob-gyn, and other specialties, I find myself via life circumstances to be very attracted to integrative/complimentary medicine. I have experienced personally the benefits of different complimentary therapies including massage therapy, chiropractic, acupuncture, naturopathic, homeopathy, and herbal medicine. And in my experience I have developed my own opinions of what therapies I personally like, what therapies have worked well for what conditions and what therapies do not work. Because of my experiences. I decided to spend 4 years in a Traditional Chinese medical school to learn acupuncture and Chinese medicine, became a licensed Acupuncturist in California, and have treated patients for the past three years. So yes, I guess i do lean towards the supportive side of alternative, natural medicine. But my clinical experience has led me to realize, that while complimentary medicine(specifically acupuncture and Chinese herbal med) can be used succesfully in the treatment of different conditions, like any medical treatments it does not work all the time. Some conditions respond well, and others do not. So I have developed the opinion that utilizing the best, most effective treatments from the history of human medicine is what is best for the patient. Essentially having a very large medicine bag to draw from as a physician, whether the treatment be natural, pharmaceutical, surgical etc. The patient is the one who benefits. With this understanding, came the decision that to become the physician I strive to become(???redundant) requires returning to medical school-DO(my personal preference). So just like most everyone else in this forum, as a non-traditional student I have spent the past year back in school fulltime(in a postbacc program) to finish the pre-med requirements, as well as studying for the MCATs, and will hopefully get into a program by 2007.

I have the utmost respect for allopathic medicine, and the exceptional strives it has made in medicine over the past century, and will gladly utilize it in my future practice. But I am also very aware of its limitations, because the patients who experienced its limitations came knocking on my clinic door to see what Chinese medicine might be able to offer them. But I want to be able to offer these patients more than what only one type of medicine can offer them.

I can guarantee you, one day when you have a patient who you are trying so hard to cure, but for whatever reason you are not able to help them, you will also start wondering if maybe other forms of medicine might offer them the cure they are so desperate to find. This is really what integrative medicine is about.

Buffett, you are right about the research behind natural medicine- it is lacking, and if there is research(such as for acup. and chinese medicine) it is many times not up to our countries gold standard. But the push towards this research is growing, as well as the $$$ behind it. In fact all you have to do is visit the NIH website, under the NCCAM and they have a list of the current research projects their organization has funded. While no where near the extent Pharma is funded(of course Pharma has lots of dough in their coffers) it is growing significantly due to consumer response.

Integrative medicine, IMO, is an exciting field of modern medicine. But to each their own.....I just hope you will remain open to its use, and maybe experience it first hand(if you have not already) before passing complete judgement on the field.

 

[EastWestN2grt]

Have you heard of any "fellowships" in an ND route? Like a back door to be certified ND if you are MD/DO? With this field growing I'm sure regulation (or at least hope) would come out of this. Although I find it amusing that pharm is one of the most regulated industries yet natural organic remedies aren't (which I belive there was talk withing the FDA to extend this? Any truth to this?)

I know as an MD/DO you get advanced standing at a ND school(only need I think 2 years instead of the 4 years. But an even better option for MD/DOs interested in Integrative/Complimentary medicine is a fellowship program in Arizona started by Andrew Weil, MD at the University of Arizona. This is the link: /integrativemedicine.arizona.edu/fellowship/ I would personally love to be able to go through that fellowship one day. But first need to get into med school...

Your right, natural remedies for the most part are not regulated, but the FDA is taking notice and have already begun the regulation of a few traditional herbs including Ma Huang.

 

[Beau Geste]

Thanks for the clarification, and if you do come across any research studies please pass them on. And you can call me Megboo.

 

[jackbnimble]

Initially, back in 1991(?) when the NIH first started the office of Alternative medicine, now called the Division of Alternative and Complimentary Medicine, the allotted budget was 2 million. A miniscule drop in the bucket of research funding. The alloted budget today is now >100 million. You should more correctly say the NIH is 'spending' money on research into evidence -based complimentary medicine(not in the past tense). While the money is no where near the funding of pharmaceutical drugs(with the big$$$$ from Pharma industry), and it probably never will be because it is in direct competition with Pharma, the funding and interet continues to grow-led by consumer interest.

While, yes there are disciplines out there who do take advantage of the term physician, I dont think it is fair to say this about the NDs. These are big, powerful, progressive states that are allowing licensure-not just some hippie communes . In the case of Cali, the debate for licensure of NDs was a very long, and difficult one. And you can imagine the Cali Med Assoc. was very against the proposal. But there was enough support for the profession(and the significant strives they have made in a science-based medicine curriculum) that licensure happened. Thus they can diagnose, order tests, and treat disease(primarily using natural therapeutics but with certain pharma privileges) as licensed physicians.

Its funny, DOs are so accepted today, but I know that this same discussion about the validity of Osteopathic medicine was probably taking place 50-60 years ago, by the established medical community. I believe 50-60 years from now NDs will be just as recognized and cherished as an integral part of medicine as the MD/DO professions. And then this discussion will seem pointless....

Simple question:

Of the $100million NCCAM budget, what research have they done that has gone on to promote a treatment that helps people? Traditional medical researchers do not get "so many bites at the apple" before their research is required to put up or shut up.

For instance all the articles I run accross on homeopathy end with some version of, "...no positive results beyond the placebo effect were identified. Further research may be useful." If my grant is funded, doesn't pan out, and I resubmit it, I am laughed at. That CAM has managed to claim entitlement to a double standard (well it might work, or it hasn't been disproven) methinks will not serve them in the long-run.

Jackb

 

[jackbnimble]

Welcome back Megboo-I thought you had deserted this thread.

Yes, I agree with almost everything Dr. Alias had to say, but not everything.

First of all, lets clarify a few things. There are two types of Naturopathic practitioners-1. Licensed physicians, who go through 4 years of med school-same didactic course work as MDs/DOs, who work either independently or in integrative medical settings in states that license them. 2. Naturopaths who get their training from online courses, and are not licensed whatsoever adn can practice in any other state.

Type 1 are the NDs I am specifically talking about. They as a profession have worked hard over the past twenty plus years to validate their abilities as docotors of naturopathic medicine, using science and evidence based medicine. Type 2 are unlicensed, untrained and IMO dangerous. Enough said about them.

I actually believe the interest in the use of complimentary therapies by MDs/DOs is partially fueled by the desire for more $$$$. I mean why not, it makes sense to treat not ONLY sick patients, but also healthy patients to try to prevent illness. It doubles the income, GREAT!!. But I do realize from personal experience with many of these neo-complimentary MDs/DOs that there is something deeper. (to be continued since my computer session is expired).....

I think you mean "complementary"

Treating "well patients" is not the sole domain of NDs. Haven't you heard of "well-baby exams? Those are provided by MD pediatricians.

Jack

 

[jackbnimble]

Just an intersting email I received:

Additional comments from Dr. Mark Hyman:

The future of healthcare and the future of integrative medicine are intimately intertwined. A consumer tsunami of interest and spending in this area cannot be turned back.

Over $55 billion is spent in the natural products area alone: $17 billion on dietary supplements, $11 billion on natural and organic foods, $4 billion on natural personal care products and $18 billion on functional foods. Combined with over $30 billion in spending on alternative or integrative medical care, consumers are asking for something different. More than 30 university medical centers now have research, education and/or clinical programs in integrative medicine. NIH funding through the NCCAM continues to increase. Conventional physicians are adopting practices once seen to be alternative, including fish oil for heart disease prevention and glucosamine for osteoarthritis.

The health conditions afflicting Americans are predominately lifestyle diseases caused by our poor diet, sedentary lifestyle and excessive stress. By necessity, the future of medicine will be integrative medicine Ð a disciple that puts primary importance on prevention and health promotion. As Andrew Weil once said, the terms "integrative, complementary, alternative" are transitional terms that will all one day be the basis of "good medicine".

William Frist, MD, Senate Majority Leader, in the Shattuck Lecture, "Health Care in the 21st Century," outlined a vision of medicine espousing the fundamental principles of CAM/Integrative Medicine: a patient-centered, consumer driven, provider-friendly, personalized medicine that will pre-empt illness and prolong life. The future of integrative medicine is the future of medicine.

Enjoy,

Mark Hyman,
MD Editor in Chief
Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine
Medical Editor

"Natural" while oft equated with safe, is in many instances far from it.

Read about Ephedra leading to over 50 deaths, Valerian leading to premature delivery, SJW leading to renal damage.

Read about adulterated Chinese herbs, or those laden with heavy metals.

DSHEA served to allow a disclaimer on dietary supplements stating, "this material has not been tested following FDA protocol to be safe and efficacious." Buyer beware while a nice manufacturer loop-hole is not so nice for the victims.

Please don't reply with how many mistakes result from pharmaceutical meds. As your mother, and mine, said, "two wrongs don't make a right."

jackb

 

[CerealBox]

NDs are also licenced to practice in Washington and Montana. A lot of people go to NDs for primary care. And insurance companies actually pay for ND visits. Here, in Seattle, there are LOTS of NDs. My best friend ia studying at Bastyr too, so I hear a lot about it.

I can say that their training is quite different than MD training (WAY less intense)... and I believe their field is completely different. I kind of think they are making money off of peoples' phobias of complicated and not easily understandable MD medicine. So many people here are freaked out by medication side effects and think natural=safe.

BUT, if the placebo effect is working for them and they're happy... that's great. I just hope NDs are responsible enough to admit when a condition is serious and refer them to specialists.

 

[jackbnimble]

BUT, if the placebo effect is working for them and they're happy... that's great. I just hope NDs are responsible enough to admit when a condition is serious and refer them to specialists.

Hi Seattle PostBac,

I also hope they are willing, able, and sufficiently knowledgeable to refer when presented with situations beyond their scope of practice. Oftentimes, I have seen otherwise. Read about the ND in Hull, Quebec that recently took a child with IDDM off insulin or the one in South Carolina that did the same.

I might beg to differ on the placebo effect being "great." I think there are ethical issues surrounding prescribing sugar pills.

SIncerely,
Jackb

 

[MSc44]

Hi Seattle PostBac,

I also hope they are willing, able, and sufficiently knowledgeable to refer when presented with situations beyond their scope of practice. Oftentimes, I have seen otherwise. Read about the ND in Hull, Quebec that recently took a child with IDDM off insulin or the one in South Carolina that did the same.

I might beg to differ on the placebo effect being "great." I think there are ethical issues surrounding prescribing sugar pills.

SIncerely,
Jackb

I dont understand. If ND's are not able to prescribe regular meds, then how do they not get suied by taking patients off meds if they dont have pharm training isnt that practicing with out a license. Maybe i just dot get the whole ND idea

 

[1Path]

Lets look back at my original reason for this thread, shall we..... I asked simply if their were any non-trads interested in Naturopathic medicine, as an option outside of the MD/DO degrees.

I think most of the confusion in this thread is between naturopathy and naturopathic medcine. The Naturopathic medical degree at least in the first 2 years looks EXACTLY like the MD and DO degrees as far as basic science is concerned. The only difference I could see is in the last to years where the Nat med students learn techniques like acupuncture in addition to having rotations.

http://www.bridgeport.edu/pages/2632.asp

Still I don't care what anyone says, the field looks quite interesting to me and seems like a great compliment to anyone interested in preventative/complementary/alternative medicine.

 

[mshheaddoc]

I think most of the confusion in this thread is between naturopathy and naturopathic medcine. The Naturopathic medical degree at least in the first 2 years looks EXACTLY like the MD and DO degrees as far as basic science is concerned. The only difference I could see is in the last to years where the Nat med students learn techniques like acupuncture in addition to having rotations.

http://www.bridgeport.edu/pages/2632.asp

Still I don't care what anyone says, the field looks quite interesting to me and seems like a great compliment to anyone interested in preventative/complementary/alternative medicine.

You are correct in 2 of your assumptions. The first two years are the same and the field is a great "COMPLIMENT". The fact that rotations are completely different are where you are wrong. Look at the actual "clinical" hours and you will see what I mean. I pointed them out in a prior post. They don't have the same clinical experience as a DO/MD and also don't have the residencies which is what worries most of us on here. Otherwise its a great program.

 

[1Path]

They don't have the same clinical experience as a DO/MD and also don't have the residencies which is what worries most of us on here. Otherwise its a great program.

When I speak of complimentary, I specifically mean the ND in addition to the MD or DO, making the distinction between the curriculums a moot point. I do see your point, though.