Any older students thought of going the MD/PHD route?

[ZanMD]

I was just curious if there are any older (30+) students out there who have decided to embark on this path.. maybe you want to be a medical researcher?The prospect seems daunting even as a traditional student. As a non-trad maybe extremely difficult, but I've always wanted to do medical research-particularly cancer research.

So how about it.. anyone over 30 thinking of this?

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[pathdr2b]

Add me to this list, although the exact path of how I'm going to do this (PhD first then MD or combined MD/PhD program)hasn't been quite worked out yet!

I currently do cancer research (urological oncology/pathology) at the NIH/NCI and plan to continue with my current PI in grad school.

And, I haven't given one iota of thought to the fact that my daughter will be graduating high school 2 years after I finish school!

 

[ZanMD]

Yes my daughter will graduate High school 2 years before I finish. I'm just taking things one day at a time.

 

[Ottercreek]

I think one can develop a dynamic research career with an MD only, but one can not be a clinician with a PhD. If time is a factor (as it might be with non-trads) then forget the PhD and go for the MD alone. If money is a factor, obviously most MTSP programs pay for your education.

 

[N-toxicologist]

I'm applying DO or MD/Ph.D Before I'm done, my oldest will be starting college, if he chooses to do so (I'm 31, BTW). If I don't get into the dual degree program, I'll still be able to do research as a doctor. Just as there were several paths to get to this point, there are still several paths to live out my dream (some less travelled than others ). Whichever one gets me there is fine.

 

[pathdr2b]

I think one can develop a dynamic research career with an MD only, but one can not be a clinician with a PhD. If time is a factor (as it might be with non-trads) then forget the PhD and go for the MD alone. If money is a factor, obviously most MTSP programs pay for your education.

Perhaps this is a stupid question, but why should time be a factor for nontrads more than anyone else?

I'm not God so I won't pretend to know how long I have here on earth. But as long as I'm here, I'd like to make the best of it and pursue my life's passion. Besides isn't that what life is really all about?

 

[ZanMD]

Perhaps this is a stupid question, but why should time be a factor for nontrads more than anyone else?

I'm not God so I won't pretend to know how long I have here on earth. But as long as I'm here, I'd like to make the best of it and pursue my life's passion. Besides isn't that what life is really all about?

Time is only a factor from the perspective that if you aren't able to pay off all your student loans before you die, it could impact your beneficiaries or your estate. Your wife/husband could get stuck paying off your loans.

other than that, time shouldn't be a factor.

 

[Ottercreek]

Yeah, I was thinking about those with families. My wife has been kind enough to put up with grad school, and now med school. I'm lucky.

 

[marleybfour]

Time is only a factor from the perspective that if you aren't able to pay off all your student loans before you die, it could impact your beneficiaries or your estate. Your wife/husband could get stuck paying off your loans.

other than that, time shouldn't be a factor.

Hey Zan,

I was told by the student loan people that came to my school that my spouse was NOT responsible for my student loans if I die. Are you sure of the info that says otherwise? I need to take out more life insurance if my husband is stuck with that debt. By the way.....who is Fruit Loops if I may ask?

 

[tr]

I was just curious if there are any older (30+) students out there who have decided to embark on this path.. maybe you want to be a medical researcher?The prospect seems daunting even as a traditional student. As a non-trad maybe extremely difficult, but I've always wanted to do medical research-particularly cancer research.

So how about it.. anyone over 30 thinking of this?

I'm not a nontrad, but I am in an MD-PhD program, and a couple of people in my entering class were in their late twenties. (I think one didn't have a science major in undergrad, then spent some years doing research at the NIH. I'm not sure about the other, she might have just been bumming around.) Haven't heard of anyone 30+, but I don't see why it couldn't be done. There are a couple of straight PhD students at my institution who are in their forties.

Like someone else said, if your issue is time, go straight MD then postdoc; it may be a slightly bumpy ride but you'll get to the same place in the end. If money is your issue, go for the MD-PhD. I'm starting to feel a little old myself right now compared to my classmates who are residents; but when it starts to get me down I just think about how I don't have $100,000 in debt hanging over my head.

 

[efex101]

I was under the impression that going M.D/Ph.D should NEVER be for the money issue? am I missing something? I have spoken to many of these folks and all said do it because you want to combine medicine with research NOT because you want to get a free ride to medical school. BTW all of them stated that going this route is for those that just love research and that most will end up doing 80% research and 20% clinical. So the bottom line is know what you are getting into and why because if you just want to do *some* research on the side the MD/Ph.D is not the best route just fyi.

 

[pathdr2b]

I was told by the student loan people that came to my school that my spouse was NOT responsible for my student loans if I die.

EXACTLY! I've never heard of what Zan is talking about either EXCEPT for private loans.

And I always find it funny when premeds/med students talk about 200K debt, then as soon as they get their first job offer at 180K, go out buy an 800K home and 7 series BMW.

 

[pathdr2b]

I was under the impression that going M.D/Ph.D should NEVER be for the money issue? am I missing something? I have spoken to many of these folks and all said do it because you want to combine medicine with research NOT because you want to get a free ride to medical school. BTW all of them stated that going this route is for those that just love research and that most will end up doing 80% research and 20% clinical. So the bottom line is know what you are getting into and why because if you just want to do *some* research on the side the MD/Ph.D is not the best route just fyi.

I say if money is your motivation go for an engineering degree with an MBA!

 

[efex101]

He he...no kidding. I have to tell you the path to the MD/Ph.D is long and ardous and many folks that initally thought hey free ride...well some fall of the wagon and others fall off because they realize that to truly combine these two your focus IS bench research so some drop off this track.

 

[ZanMD]

Hey Zan,

I was told by the student loan people that came to my school that my spouse was NOT responsible for my student loans if I die. Are you sure of the info that says otherwise? I need to take out more life insurance if my husband is stuck with that debt. By the way.....who is Fruit Loops if I may ask?

I may have been wrong about the loan responsibility. fruit loops is some kid who died of cancer.

 

[tr]

I was under the impression that going M.D/Ph.D should NEVER be for the money issue? am I missing something? I have spoken to many of these folks and all said do it because you want to combine medicine with research NOT because you want to get a free ride to medical school.

The OP stated that his major interest was research, so I took that as a given.

Assuming a major interest in basic or translational research, money *is* an important factor for most people, because salaries in these fields are generally far lower than salaries for practicing clinicians. It's much more difficult to pay off med school loans if you're making $35,000 as a postdoc for five years, and then maybe $70,000 as junior faculty afterward.

As I said, if money is not an issue then it is possible to do the same basic or translational research with an MD as with a PhD. You'll need some catch-up training, but eventually it can be worked out.

Obviously there's no point in doing a dual degree if you aren't interested in research. I can't imagine the free ride would be worth the extra years and all the headaches. But that doesn't seem to be the case with the OP.

 

[medanthgirl]

I've been looking at MD/PhD in the social sciences, particularly anthropology at Case Western and Chicago. But at those places, there's no break on the length of the anthropology PhD - it would still take the 'normal' 5-7 years. I'd be starting at 28 or 29 if I got in, but I'm worried about 1) i'd like to have children someday! and 2) would i forget everything i've learned in med school!!

 

[pathdr2b]

It's much more difficult to pay off med school loans if you're making $35,000 as a postdoc for five years,.

Most folks defer their loans while in a potdoc, so this is a nonissue.

and then maybe $70,000 as junior faculty afterward.

You're assuming EVERYONE with an MD/PhD wants to work in academia. I have a close friend that was offered a 250K salary at a pharmaceutical company (she interned at) with an MD/PhD and she doens't have to complete a residency!

Obviously there's no point in doing a dual degree if you aren't interested in research.

Some peole don't know what they want to do for a career research, clinical, both, so I say it's best to be prepared for ANY possiblility within your interests. Besides, residents with PhD's make more than those with just the MD from what I've seen. Additionally, when fellowship time rolls around, places like the NIH give up to 10K more is salary to MD's with PhD's.

 

[pathdr2b]

1) i'd like to have children someday! and 2) would i forget everything i've learned in med school!!
:

There's really no delimma here. Have you kids in grad school when you'll get a "break" from the intensity of med school. Look at it like a "job" and keep on steppin!

 

[medanthgirl]

There's really no delimma here. Have you kids in grad school when you'll get a "break" from the intensity of med school. Look at it like a "job" and keep on steppin!

hee! i like your perspective!!

 

[pathdr2b]

hee! i like your perspective!!

I'm definitely not saying it's going to be easy, but trust me coming home every day to look into that cute little face, will be worth it!

 

[ZanMD]

I definitely not saying it's going to be easy, but trust me coming home every day to look into that cute little face, will be worth it!

Someone mentioned something about money. I don't think anyone goes into research for the money. It's more about commitment to medicine. Something along the lines of teaching. If you want to make money, be a clinician.

 

[pathdr2b]

Someone mentioned something about money. I don't think anyone goes into research for the money. It's more about commitment to medicine. Something along the lines of teaching. If you want to make money, be a clinician.

Unfortunately, I think MOST people interested in medicine are doing it for the money, but I've found that money is the least likely motivating factor among nontrads.

 

[ZanMD]

Unfortunately, I think MOST people interested in medicine are doing it for the money, but I've found that money is the least likely motivating factor among nontrads.

small correction: people in MEDICINE are in it for the money.. people in MEDICAL RESEARCH should know they "typically' won't become rich doing it..

The reason most non trads aren't in it for the money is situational. Your typical non trad has an established career. and when you figure in the age + lost income in thier current career due to retraining time to become a doctor -lost income years due to advanced age compounded by your typical med school loans= not a chance of becoming rich. living comfortably- maybe but doubtful we'll see anything that puts them on easy street. There are of course always exceptions to every rule. I'm sure there are rich med researchers with healthy financial backing, just as I'm sure there are non trads who do well financially. But the deck is stacked against you.

Also wanted to add that though I have to agree with you that there are a significant percentage of people in it for the money, it shouldn't be your sole motivating factor. If you want a lot of money, spend 4 years in school to get an engineering degree, and your lifetime earnings will be pretty decent. Too many people see medicine as another job with a really big paycheck, when they should realize (and I'm sure they do once they get past a certain point) that it's a huge commitment, not just a paycheck.

 

[uptoolate]

Most folks defer their loans while in a potdoc, so this is a nonissue.


As Ph.D student with a whole lot of debt, I don't think this is true. A post-doc is considered a salaried position and I was advised I would not be able to defer my loans unless I claimed hardship-not likely since I'd be receiving a salary. I could be wrong...

 

[pathdr2b]

Most folks defer their loans while in a potdoc, so this is a nonissue.


As Ph.D student with a whole lot of debt, I don't think this is true. A post-doc is considered a salaried position and I was advised I would not be able to defer my loans unless I claimed hardship-not likely since I'd be receiving a salary. I could be wrong...

I should clarify what I meant. I'm referring to MD/PhD grauduates in post docs and I don't know any (and I work around quite a few) that are paying off student loans. They all have deferments of one sort or another since as MD/PhD's they qualify for different types depending on how ther training program is structured.

 

[njbmd]

I was just curious if there are any older (30+) students out there who have decided to embark on this path.. maybe you want to be a medical researcher?The prospect seems daunting even as a traditional student. As a non-trad maybe extremely difficult, but I've always wanted to do medical research-particularly cancer research.

So how about it.. anyone over 30 thinking of this?

Hi there,
I started out as a pre-graduate student Analytical Chemistry major. At the time, I had no interest in medical school. My undergraduate degree was totally paid for by scholarships, my Ph.D was totally paid for by scholarships and department research stipend. When I entered medical school, I had no educational debt and had never borrowed money. I received a full-ride tuition scholarship for medical school and only borrowed for living expenses. I have deferred payment of my medical school loan until end of residency because the interest is so low and I owe less than $50,000. I was far older than 30 when I began my Ph.D work and still older when I began medical school. It can be done so age is not a factor.

If you are in an MD-Ph.D program, you need to meet the requirements for both programs. Your tuition will be paid by the department that accepts you. You will be providing research and publications for your institution so you become an asset for them. MD-Ph.D scholars are expected to maintain higher averages than MD students because of the scholarships so keep this in mind. On the other hand, you get a nice quiet office to study in, your own lab-work and in my case, my own lab (heaven on earth) and very generous library priviledges as I had the title assistant professor once I had passed my qualifying exams for my Ph.D. Since you will be spending far more time at the school than your MD candidates, you have a few extra little perks to keep you comfortable. All in all, not a bad way to go and doing research is great fun no matter what age. I also had a great relationship with the faculty both pre-clinical and clinical as I was often tutoring students.

The bad side is that you will be spending more time at school and away from your family. You just have more work to do and you start with one class and graduate with another. You become very intolerant of people who waste your time in any way. (Some people have referred to this as arrogance, I refer to this a practical.) Your colleagues will often be much, much younger too but again, this is not necessarily a bad thing. (I enjoyed working and learning with my younger colleagues).

njbmd

 

[ZanMD]

Hi there,
I started out as a pre-graduate student Analytical Chemistry major. At the time, I had no interest in medical school. My undergraduate degree was totally paid for by scholarships, my Ph.D was totally paid for by scholarships and department research stipend. When I entered medical school, I had no educational debt and had never borrowed money. I received a full-ride tuition scholarship for medical school and only borrowed for living expenses. I have deferred payment of my medical school loan until end of residency because the interest is so low and I owe less than $50,000. I was far older than 30 when I began my Ph.D work and still older when I began medical school. It can be done so age is not a factor.

If you are in an MD-Ph.D program, you need to meet the requirements for both programs. Your tuition will be paid by the department that accepts you. You will be providing research and publications for your institution so you become an asset for them. MD-Ph.D scholars are expected to maintain higher averages than MD students because of the scholarships so keep this in mind. On the other hand, you get a nice quiet office to study in, your own lab-work and in my case, my own lab (heaven on earth) and very generous library priviledges as I had the title assistant professor once I had passed my qualifying exams for my Ph.D. Since you will be spending far more time at the school than your MD candidates, you have a few extra little perks to keep you comfortable. All in all, not a bad way to go and doing research is great fun no matter what age. I also had a great relationship with the faculty both pre-clinical and clinical as I was often tutoring students.

The bad side is that you will be spending more time at school and away from your family. You just have more work to do and you start with one class and graduate with another. You become very intolerant of people who waste your time in any way. (Some people have referred to this as arrogance, I refer to this a practical.) Your colleagues will often be much, much younger too but again, this is not necessarily a bad thing. (I enjoyed working and learning with my younger colleagues).

njbmd

Thanks Natalie.. As always your wisdom is extremely useful. Lots of things to mull over. My family is small but very supportive, so I'm sure I could make it work from that standpoint- and luckily I have a decent enough income to enter med school with no debt as well, so it just may be doable. Decisions decisions.

Thanks!

 

[Pili]

I was just curious if there are any older (30+) students out there who have decided to embark on this path.. maybe you want to be a medical researcher?The prospect seems daunting even as a traditional student. As a non-trad maybe extremely difficult, but I've always wanted to do medical research-particularly cancer research.

So how about it.. anyone over 30 thinking of this?

I was treated by the director of admissions as if I was in the early stages of Alzheimer's during the whole process.

 

[Termwean]

MD/Phd...No way Jose!...I'll turn 34 right after I start medschool( hopefully if I get an acceptance next week) . I will be old as it is ...can't think about adding time to it by going Phd also.

 

[Paws]

I think there is a bias against older MD/PhD applicants. I have a friend in his thirties who asked about this and made progress at several schools, but in the end after being told several times by PI's that he was too old, he gave up and did the MD thing.

People were pretty blunt with him, as if he was dimwitted to think he had much to offer 'at his age'.

 

[ZanMD]

I think there is a bias against older MD/PhD applicants. I have a friend in his thirties who asked about this and made progress at several schools, but in the end after being told several times by PI's that he was too old, he gave up and did the MD thing.

People were pretty blunt with him, as if he was dimwitted to think he had much to offer 'at his age'.

It's too bad that there is that bias.. it's not as if after 30 our good ideas just "dry up".. they may be saying no to cure for aids cancer, or some other great contributions..

I mean, at least with MD, I can sort of understand the bias- the physical demands are great, and you need to be able to keep up.. but it's not as if you're going to get a hernia lifting beakers..

I guess I lucked out and missed that alzheimers that everyone apparently gets when they hit 25 and become unable to perform research

 

[pathdr2b]

I guess I lucked out and missed that alzheimers that everyone apparently gets when they hit 25 and become unable to perform research

I think there is a bias against older MD/PhD applicants. I have a friend in his thirties who asked about this and made progress at several schools, but in the end after being told several times by PI's that he was too old, he gave up and did the MD thing.

If I allowed "people" to determine what career goals I should have, I wouldn't have ANY of the 3 college degrees I've earned.

The great thing about being a nontrad in this process is that as you get older and wiser, you have very litle problem telling people where they can put their antiquated opinions!

 

[ZanMD]

If I allowed "people" to determine what career goals I should have, I wouldn't have ANY of the 3 college degrees I've earned.

The great thing about being a nontrad in this process is that as you get older and wiser, you have very litle problem telling people where they can put their antiquated opinions!

Amen.. a toast.. here's to telling people where to collectively shove it when it comes to achieving your goals!

 

[QofQuimica]

I was just curious if there are any older (30+) students out there who have decided to embark on this path.. maybe you want to be a medical researcher?The prospect seems daunting even as a traditional student. As a non-trad maybe extremely difficult, but I've always wanted to do medical research-particularly cancer research.

So how about it.. anyone over 30 thinking of this?

Yes. I'm finishing my PhD in chemistry this year, and I want to go back now for my MD. It's kind of a convoluted way of doing an MD/PhD, but I'm getting there slowly but surely!