Any orthos/residents concerned by the 2017 Orthodontic Workforce report?

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mmc12

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Some key points:
Recent graduates making $163,288 first year out (One person even stated only making $100,000 seeing 80+ patients a day in three different states)
One orthodontist 8 years out of residency needing to "move overseas twice just to make a living " and being 40 and still not being able to afford to start a family.
Average debt of $456,036 for ortho grads between 2013-2017 (and increasing)
One person going through chapter 7 bankrupcy to sell his startup practice because couldn't make student/business loan payments
ZERO jobs in certain states, and traveling 200 miles to stay at a motel or fly for a job!

Any recent orthos/residents/prospective orthos discouraged by this?

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Not an ortho grad, but did try to get into ortho a couple times after dental school. Didn’t get in, I am about 7 years out of dental school, and thankful I didn’t after reading that.

I’ve paid off all my loans, make 250-300k per year as a GP with fully funded retirement funds. I’ve taken tons of CE in ortho and do both banded and aligners in my practice. What I learned? Some cases are fun and easy- others are not whether it’s the compliance, the parents, the oral hygiene, etc ortho is no walk in the park and comes with its own set of annoyances.

Bottom line, I’d rather be in my situation as a GP than anyone of those drowning in debt or making less than me like you read in that report.
 
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Only 10k practicing orthodontists in the US? That’s not bad at all. This is a very small number in comparison to the total number of practicing general dentists (150k), pharmacists (300+k), physicians (almost 1million), and lawyers (1.35 million) in the US.

According to this article, there are about 3.27 orthodontists per every 100,000 population. This is not a bad ratio at all. But the real world ratio is probably around 3.27 orthodontists per every 20,000 population because most orthodontists target the top 20% income earners and refuse to treat the bottom 80% income earners. And for many ortho offices that don’t take insurance and only accept cash payments, the ratio would be closer to 3.7 orthodontists per every 10,000 population.

It’s also good to know that the state (CA), where I am practicing in, is not on the list of the 10 most oversaturated states.
 
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I'm sure Ortho is a good gig if you don't attend an expensive residency

Thanks, I am an associate. I probably work 35-40 hours per week.
Did you end up doing an AEGD/GPR after graduating or did you drive into private practice?
 
There is no denying that the practice of orthodontics has changed in the last 10 years. I've seen it 1st hand although I practice in a saturated, urban market. At one time orthodontists had the monopoly on straightening teeth. This is no longer the case. We should not be surprised. GPs have always provided quality care with those simpler specialty procedures: i,e. simple anterior RCT, early stages perio disease, single implants, easy exposed wisdom teeth extractions, etc. etc. Is anyone surprised that GPs are now doing simple ortho corrections? They shouldn't be. Same with SDC. They are targeting the easy stuff that GPs do. Earlier I opined that SDC would hurt the GPs doing ortho more than the specialists and I still believe this.

As for @charlestweed suggestion that orthodontists are not availing themselves to the underserved low income market. Maybe. But I would state that the Dental Corps are all over this market. Typical low income patients usually have more dental problems than just crooked teeth. Restorative, perio, missing teeth, etc. etc. Much easier for these patients to get ALL their restorative, perio and ortho tx under one roof rather than piece meal it with multiple different offices and providers. Not saying the Corp model is good. Just saying that it works for the low income patients.

There are always stories of those who struggled, but there are also many stories of orthodontists that are thriving. Readers love to hear the drama of struggling people. I'm sure you could find many similar negative stories in every field. Seriously.

Orthodontics may not be the golden specialty like it once was, but the lifestyle and income potential is still there. I see first hand the daily crap that the GPs, Perios, OMFS have to deal within the Dent Corp environment. No thanks. I'll stick to putting braces on, choosing archwires, adjusting rets, wire bending, having assts perform a majority of the simpler treatment, no anesthetics, no blood, colored elastics, smiling patients, etc. etc.
 
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I'm sure Ortho is a good gig if you don't attend an expensive residency


Did you end up doing an AEGD/GPR after graduating or did you drive into private practice?

I did a GPR. The problem now with ortho is you used to be able to hang a shingle and double your income as a GP. As has been said, maybe some are thriving but there are going to be winners and losers now. And if you are a loser with a ton of debt you lose hard. Is it worth the risk? I don’t know, wasnt for me.
 
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As for @charlestweed suggestion that orthodontists are not availing themselves to the underserved low income market. Maybe. But I would state that the Dental Corps are all over this market. Typical low income patients usually have more dental problems than just crooked teeth. Restorative, perio, missing teeth, etc. etc. Much easier for these patients to get ALL their restorative, perio and ortho tx under one roof rather than piece meal it with multiple different offices and providers. Not saying the Corp model is good. Just saying that it works for the low income patients.
The corp's goal is to get as many patients to walk into their offices as possible. That's why they accept plans (medicaid, HMO) that most private dental offices don't accept. Their general dental department may not profit much from treating the medicaid and HMO patients but they make a lot of money by referring the patients to their own in-house specialists. At the corp I work for, 80% of the new ortho patient exams are medicaid patients. But less than 5% of these medicaid patients have severe enough ortho problem to qualify for free ortho tx. And with the low ortho tx fee and the affordable in-house finance option, the corp office is able to convert many of these medicaid patients to cash patients. If the corp doesn't accept medicaid/HMO plans, there's no way I can meet their goal of 2-3 starts per day.

I did the same thing when I set up my first office in 2006. I didn't bother visiting the high end GP offices because they already had other well-established high end ortho offices to refer their patients to. Instead, I visited the private GP offices that compete against the corp offices, that target mostly low income patients, that accept medicaid etc.
 
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Most young recent ortho grads don't realize that the traditional one-office location model doesn't work for them anymore. With the corp expansion and new ortho programs that pump out more new orthos, there are just not enough ortho patients to fill all the chairs 8 hours/day, 4-5 days/week in one office location. In order to do that, there have to be at least 5-10 new consults every day and 40-50 starts every month. In order to have those many consults and starts, they have to widen the radius by setting up multiple offices.

I think it's foolish to spend 500-600k to set up a 3000+sf ortho office from scratch, no matter how good the location is. This means that the monthly loan repayment amount would be about $6-7k/month for the next 10 years. The overall monthly overhead for each of my 4 offices is even less than that ($23k/month divided by 4 = $5.75k/month per office). IMO, a good ortho office size should be between 1500-1700 square feet and with good design plan, one can have 5-6 chairs in there. Such small office size should only cost $150-200k to build.....and the monthly rent should be around $2-3k/month. So with $500-600k budget, one can easily build 3-4 offices. Another easy way to add a new office location without having to pay for the high construction and equipment cost is to rent an office space from a GP or from another specialist.

Another problem that many new grad orthos have is they rely too much on new and expensive technology. It's not really their fault for not knowing how to work in a traditional low tech office. Asking them to go back to use the paper chart system is like asking my son to go back to use a typewriter, which he has never seen one in his life. It's hard to make a living when the cost of running an ortho office is so high.
 
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Only 10k practicing orthodontists in the US? That’s not bad at all. This is a very small number in comparison to the total number of practicing general dentists (150k), pharmacists (300+k), physicians (almost 1million), and lawyers (1.35 million) in the US.

According to this article, there are about 3.27 orthodontists per every 100,000 population. This is not a bad ratio at all. But the real world ratio is probably around 3.27 orthodontists per every 20,000 population because most orthodontists target the top 20% income earners and refuse to treat the bottom 80% income earners. And for many ortho offices that don’t take insurance and only accept cash payments, the ratio would be closer to 3.7 orthodontists per every 10,000 population.

It’s also good to know that the state (CA), where I am practicing in, is not on the list of the 10 most oversaturated states.
That may be true that the number of orthodontists is a lot less than general dentists, physicians, pharmacists, etc. But are there a lot of people that actively pursue orthodontic tx compared to seeking a primary care doctor or general dentist? Most people have a PCP physician and GP dentist. The same can’t be said for orthodontics.

Also, some areas of the country have a severe shortage of physicians. In Henderson, NV (right next to Vegas), There’s only one or two endocrinologists. He is booked out four months in advance. Compare that with how many orthodontists are in that area or any major metropolitan area.
 
That may be true that the number of orthodontists is a lot less than general dentists, physicians, pharmacists, etc. But are there a lot of people that actively pursue orthodontic tx compared to seeking a primary care doctor or general dentist? Most people have a PCP physician and GP dentist. The same can’t be said for orthodontics.
There are about 4 million people who wear braces in the US(source: What Did People Do to Their Teeth Before Braces?). So if you do the math, the ratio for these 10k practicing orthodontists to treat 4 million patients would be around 250 orthodontists per 100,000 population, which is still way better than the physicians to population ratio (300 physicians per 100,000 population). Imagine if there are more practicing orthodontists who are willing to accept insurance plans and more willing to treat low income population, this 4 million figure of people who wear braces could easily increase 5-6 times.

Also, some areas of the country have a severe shortage of physicians. In Henderson, NV (right next to Vegas), There’s only one or two endocrinologists. He is booked out four months in advance. Compare that with how many orthodontists are in that area or any major metropolitan area.
They are fully booked but they don't get paid for every case that they treat because some of the patients don't have health insurance...and unlike us, dentists, doctors cannot deny cares to patients who walk into the hospital to see them. So they ended up treating these patients for free. So to make up for this, they have to treat high patient volume.....more stress....higher risk of getting lawsuits.
 
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There are about 4 million people who wear braces in the US(source: What Did People Do to Their Teeth Before Braces?). So if you do the math, the ratio for these 10k practicing orthodontists to treat 4 million patients would be around 250 orthodontists per 100,000 population, which is still way better than the physicians to population ratio (300 physicians per 100,000 population). Imagine if there are more practicing orthodontists who are willing to accept insurance plans and more willing to treat low income population, this 4 million figure of people who wear braces could easily increase 5-6 times.
This assumes that all the patients that wear braces are treated by orthodontists? Many GPs are not only dabbling in invisalign, but are also putting braces on.
 
This assumes that all the patients that wear braces are treated by orthodontists? Many GPs are not only dabbling in invisalign, but are also putting braces on.
The GPs treat very small percentage of the ortho cases because they can only get ortho patients from their own offices. Orthodontists get new patients from multiple sources: advertisements, referrals from multiple GP offices, word of mouth referrals, insurance referrals, difficult cases that the GPs don’t want to touch etc. I think 4 million is an underestimated number. Patients don’t just go to ortho offices to get braces only….there are many ortho offices that do more invisalign treatments than fixed braces. A lot of the same ortho patients paid their orthodontists twice or 3 times (phase I, phase 2, ortho retreatments due to lack of retainer wears etc) get their teeth straightened.

4 million is only 1.2% of the total population in the US. I don’t really need any of these 4 million rich top income earners…..my colleagues can have them. I am more interested in treating the type of patients, whom most of my colleagues refuse to treat.

I hope more dental students and practicing dentists have pessimistic views about ortho like you so they don’t apply. Less people applying for ortho = higher chance for my kids to get in (if they decide to follow my footstep).
 
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The GPs treat very small percentage of the ortho cases because they can only get ortho patients from their own offices. Orthodontists get new patients from multiple sources: advertisements, referrals from multiple GP offices, word of mouth referrals, insurance referrals, difficult cases that the GPs don’t want to touch etc. I think 4 million is an underestimated number. Patients don’t just go to ortho offices to get braces only….there are many ortho offices that do more invisalign treatments than fixed braces. A lot of the same ortho patients paid their orthodontists twice or 3 times (phase I, phase 2, ortho retreatments due to lack of retainer wears etc) get their teeth straightened.

4 million is only 1.2% of the total population in the US. I don’t really need any of these 4 million rich top income earners…..my colleagues can have them. I am more interested in treating the type of patients, whom most of my colleagues refuse to treat.

I hope more dental students and practicing dentists have pessimistic views about ortho like you so they don’t apply. Less people applying for ortho = higher chance for my kids to get in (if they decide to follow my footstep).
Would you consider orthodontics, with all its problems regarding saturation, SDC, etc over a competitive lifestyle specialty in medicine like Dermatology? It seems like medical specialties really look out for their own by tightly controlling the number of graduating residents each year. They would never allow a school like George School of Orthodontics with 18+ residents to form.
 
Would you consider orthodontics, with all its problems regarding saturation, SDC, etc over a competitive lifestyle specialty in medicine like Dermatology? It seems like medical specialties really look out for their own by tightly controlling the number of graduating residents each year. They would never allow a school like George School of Orthodontics with 18+ residents to form.
I met an orthodontist, who used to work at the same corp office with me. Her sister is a dermatologist. She said that her ortho salary and lifestyle are comparable to those of her dermatologist sister.

Not every smart student can become a dermatologist. Dermatology is 100x harder to get in than ortho. First, it's much harder to get into med school than into dental school. Second, to get into derm, you have to do research, have good board score and be the top student in your medical class. While in med school, my younger brother traveled to multiple programs to present his research project. He applied for Derm and got 9 interviews but he didn't match anywhere. He ended up doing 3 years of interternal medicine residency... and then 3 more years of GI fellowship. After graduation, he'd worked in CA for about 4-5 years and last year, he moved to one of the states in the midwest for better salary. I don't need to move out of CA and live in the middle of nowhere in order to make the kind of money that my brother is making right now.

Let me repeat again...companies like SDC, Candid are not a threat to the profession because they can only do minor dental movements. Most of these simple cases are usually handled by the GPs anyway. Orthdontists usually treat patients who have more severe problems (impacted canines, severe crowdings that require extractions of teeth, large OJ, interdisciplinary cases, combine surgical/ortho tx etc).

As you gain enough experience from treating high patient volume and from doing the same things every day, everything in ortho becomes so easy to you. Some people find doing the same repetitive work every day boring.....so they pursue other dental specialties (OS, perio, endo) instead. But for me, I love doing the same easy stuff every day because I am lazy. I hate doing risky procedures that require me to think and to lose sleep at night. Ortho is an overpaid specialty.....I don't have to charge high fees in order to be profitable.
 
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I am lazy. Ortho is an overpaid specialty.....I don't have to charge high fees in order to be profitable.
I disagree with 2 points you made. 1. You are NOT lazy lol.
2. I do not believe Ortho is an overpaid specialty. If anything ... Ortho is under valued for what we do. I.e. 6 anterior veneers are around $6000. Maybe less. We treat the entire dentition for much less. We change everything. We affect young children's and adults self perceptions of themselves. We do so much more than straighten some front teeth.
 
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I disagree with 2 points you made. 1. You are NOT lazy lol.
2. I do not believe Ortho is an overpaid specialty. If anything ... Ortho is under valued for what we do. I.e. 6 anterior veneers are around $6000. Maybe less. We treat the entire dentition for much less. We change everything. We affect young children's and adults self perceptions of themselves. We do so much more than straighten some front teeth.
I work 4 hours: from 2pm-6pm weekdays, 8am- 12 noon weekends. If there are RPE, quad helices to be made, I just come in 30-45 minutes early to make them myself. And I get paid the same as (or more than) many physicians, general dentists, pharmacists, optometrists, and other dental specialists, who work 8+ hours a day, 5-6 days/week. Easy job (clean, mostly young healthy patients, low liablity risk, no call, no sleeping in the hospital), easy money.

In my area, dentists don't charge that much for veneers. And if patients are willing to pay $6k for 6 veneers, they are usually the picky type of patients, who expect perfect results. This means that you have to spend extra time to explain things to patients, extra time to prep the teeth, extra money on labs (diagnostic wax up, provisional restorations, high quality veneers etc)....long doctor's time + hig lab fee = lower profit margin. And dentists don't usually get high productive veneer case like this every day. Most of the time, they do fillings, cleanings, a few crowns here and there. For us, orthodontists, we can book as many patients in one day as we want and have very productive day every single work day.....and for the other free days in the month, we can either work at our satellite offfices or work for the corp offices to supplement our incomes.

Edit: I work from 10am -7pm today at the corp. Right now it's 5:56pm......and I am going home.
 
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I met an orthodontist, who used to work at the same corp office with me. Her sister is a dermatologist. She said that her ortho salary and lifestyle are comparable to those of her dermatologist sister.

Not every smart student can become a dermatologist. Dermatology is 100x harder to get in than ortho. First, it's much harder to get into med school than into dental school. Second, to get into derm, you have to do research, have good board score and be the top student in your medical class. While in med school, my younger brother traveled to multiple programs to present his research project. He applied for Derm and got 9 interviews but he didn't match anywhere. He ended up doing 3 years of interternal medicine residency... and then 3 more years of GI fellowship. After graduation, he'd worked in CA for about 4-5 years and last year, he moved to one of the states in the midwest for better salary. I don't need to move out of CA and live in the middle of nowhere in order to make the kind of money that my brother is making right now.

Let me repeat again...companies like SDC, Candid are not a threat to the profession because they can only do minor dental movements. Most of these simple cases are usually handled by the GPs anyway. Orthdontists usually treat patients who have more severe problems (impacted canines, severe crowdings that require extractions of teeth, large OJ, interdisciplinary cases, combine surgical/ortho tx etc).

As you gain enough experience from treating high patient volume and from doing the same things every day, everything in ortho becomes so easy to you. Some people find doing the same repetitive work every day boring.....so they pursue other dental specialties (OS, perio, endo) instead. But for me, I love doing the same easy stuff every day because I am lazy. I hate doing risky procedures that require me to think and to lose sleep at night. Ortho is an overpaid specialty.....I don't have to charge high fees in order to be profitable.

Your view of derm is a little over the top. Maybe it's skewed by your brother's experience which is understandable. The numbers at fist glance are daunting, but if you look at just allopathic students the match rate is around 80+%. The large number of foreign grads makes the stats look worse. Also, it's much tougher for an osteopath to match at an allopathic derm program so their numbers also skew things a bit. A recent match showed 423 spots and 479 US med students applying. I think that includes DO students. If it does then for allopathic US students there are close to the same number of spots as there are applicants--not exactly an insurmountable task. I have family and friends who recently went through the process. Getting into MD school is a little tougher than getting into dental, but not much. The match rate for orthodontics has generally been much lower than 80%. I believe it's more like a little less than 50%. So is it harder to become an orthodontist (matching to a real ortho program and not one of the recently opened orthodontist factories) or to match to derm? It's unclear.

Your business model is a niche model. Cater to lower income folks who are often ignored in the ortho market place. Good idea. Not revolutionary. Business models that focus on a particular niche are generally good ones. You often comment about enjoying working with people who aren't too picky. That's an indication the ortho you're doing isn't exactly top shelf. They get what they pay for I guess so maybe that's reasonable.

Whether you're lazy or not depends. Laziness isn't a virtue. It's unclear based on your work schedule whether you are lazy or not. Doing excellent orthodontics isn't easy. Ive been at it for many years doing 400-500 starts per year. I've seen a lot and I work hard to do a great job. But no two cases are the same. I also believe in treating the patient, not just the teeth. This requires getting to know them and understanding exactly what their goals are and what they bring to the table in terms of motivation, compliance etc.
 
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Your view of derm is a little over the top. Maybe it's skewed by your brother's experience which is understandable. The numbers at fist glance are daunting, but if you look at just allopathic students the match rate is around 80+%. The large number of foreign grads makes the stats look worse. Also, it's much tougher for an osteopath to match at an allopathic derm program so their numbers also skew things a bit. A recent match showed 423 spots and 479 US med students applying. I think that includes DO students. If it does then for allopathic US students there are close to the same number of spots as there are applicants--not exactly an insurmountable task. I have family and friends who recently went through the process. Getting into MD school is a little tougher than getting into dental, but not much. The match rate for orthodontics has generally been much lower than 80%. I believe it's more like a little less than 50%. So is it harder to become an orthodontist (matching to a real ortho program and not one of the recently opened orthodontist factories) or to match to derm? It's unclear.
My brother is not the only MD in my family. I have nieces and nephews who are currently in medical and dental schools. One is currently applying for dental schools. So I know what I am talking about. Med school is not a little harder….it’s much much harder to get into. This is why my wife and I encourage our kids to work as hard as they can in HS. Take as many AP classes and possible and they need to pass 8 AP exams (with a score of 4 or higher) by their junior year. We hope they will get accepted to a BS/MD program....a guaranteed way to get into med school without having to do well on the MCAT.
Your business model is a niche model. Cater to lower income folks who are often ignored in the ortho market place. Good idea. Not revolutionary. Business models that focus on a particular niche are generally good ones. You often comment about enjoying working with people who aren't too picky. That's an indication the ortho you're doing isn't exactly top shelf. They get what they pay for I guess so maybe that's reasonable.
You can’t grow your business if what you are doing is not top shelf. You need referrals from both the GPs and patients in order to survive. Your tx results will not only be judged by your patients but also by their dentists and your referring GPs as well. So your works have to be top shelf. Before criticizing a colleague without seeing his work and sounding holier than thou, one needs to look at himself in the mirror first.
Whether you're lazy or not depends. Laziness isn't a virtue. It's unclear based on your work schedule whether you are lazy or not. Doing excellent orthodontics isn't easy. Ive been at it for many years doing 400-500 starts per year. I've seen a lot and I work hard to do a great job. But no two cases are the same. I also believe in treating the patient, not just the teeth. This requires getting to know them and understanding exactly what their goals are and what they bring to the table in terms of motivation, compliance etc.
Congrats on your success! That’s a lot of starts. I have much fewer..... around 350 starts a year, which I think is a very good number and I am very happy with it. I guess that’s why I think orthodontics is easy…..since my offices don’t see as many patients as yours.
 
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My brother is not the only MD in my family. I have nieces and nephews who are currently in medical and dental schools. One is currently applying for dental schools. So I know what I am talking about. Med school is not a little harder….it’s much much harder to get into. This is why my wife and I encourage our kids to work as hard as they can in HS. Take as many AP classes and possible and they need to pass 8 AP exams (with a score of 4 or higher) by their junior year. We hope they will get accepted to a BS/MD program....a guaranteed way to get into med school without having to do well on the MCAT.

You can’t grow your business if what you are doing is not top shelf. You need referrals from both the GPs and patients in order to survive. Your tx results will not only be judged by your patients but also by their dentists and your referring GPs as well. So your works have to be top shelf. Before criticizing a colleague without seeing his work and sounding holier than thou, one needs to look at himself in the mirror first.

Congrats on your success! That’s a lot of starts. I have much fewer..... around 350 starts a year, which I think is a very good number and I am very happy with it. I guess that’s why I think orthodontics is easy…..since my offices don’t see as many patients as yours.

Oops. I didn't phrase that very eloquently when I talked about "top shelf" vs not top shelf work. I definitely can't make a judgment on that without seeing your work in person. If you say it's good then I accept that. I guess it was more a reaction to all of your talk about how you are lazy and how easy ortho is etc. That just doesn't sound like something a quality focused clinician would say, but you are probably the exception.

I have lots of close friends and relatives in various stages of dental and medical school training. Med school simply is not much much harder to get into. Baloney. At my dental school the difference in GPAs is less than one tenth of a point. You think one tenth of a point makes a big difference in either the quality of the applicant or in the difficulty of achieving acceptance? The answer is no, it does not. And DO school is definitely easier to gain acceptance than most dental schools.
 
Oops. I didn't phrase that very eloquently when I talked about "top shelf" vs not top shelf work. I definitely can't make a judgment on that without seeing your work in person. If you say it's good then I accept that. I guess it was more a reaction to all of your talk about how you are lazy and how easy ortho is etc. That just doesn't sound like something a quality focused clinician would say, but you are probably the exception.

I have lots of close friends and relatives in various stages of dental and medical school training. Med school simply is not much much harder to get into. Baloney. At my dental school the difference in GPAs is less than one tenth of a point. You think one tenth of a point makes a big difference in either the quality of the applicant or in the difficulty of achieving acceptance? The answer is no, it does not. And DO school is definitely easier to gain acceptance than most dental schools.
In order to maintain the success of your business, you always have to do your best to keep your patients and referral GPs happy. Reputation doesn't happen overnight. This is important, especially when you are practicing in a very competitive area. You can't make a bad chow fun dish, if you set up your restaurant in Chinatown area.

When I said my patients are not picky, I meant they trust me and let me do my job. They don't ask me a lot of questions so I have more time to focus on patient treatments. They don't demand a loose bracket to be repaired at the time and day of the week that they want. They don't look up stuff on the internet. They don't dictate the treatments etc.

I've said ortho is easy because I compare my kind of work to those of my MD brother, my MD anesthesiologist cousin, my family physician, my general dentist friends, my pharmacist sister-in-law etc. If you divide these healthcare professionals' incomes by the total number of hours that they work, I think we, orthddontists, make the most $$$ per hour. I stand by my earlier statement that ortho is an overpaid specialty.

The reason I want my kids to pursue medicine instead of following my footstep is I am afraid they will think like most of the new grad orthos: no medicaid, no insurance, FFS only, rich patients only, no working on Saturdays and Sundays, spending $500k to set up a practice etc. It's hard to succeed as an orthodontist with this mentality. It's not their fault....it's mine because I spoil them. They don't even know how to wash dishes and do chores around the house because I am afraid they will not have enough time to study. The only sacrifice they've made is they study a lot harder than most of their classmates.

My newphew is applying for dental school right now. He took calculus, gen chem, and bio classes at a community college. He then transferred to one of thhe UC schools in CA. His GPA and DAT score are just ok and so far, he has received 5 dental school interviews. His cousin (my niece) got a 3.9 GPA and the MCATscore of 517....and all the med schools in CA that she applied to rejected her. She got accepted to an out-of-state med school. If you have last name Patel, Nguyen, Tran, Chang etc, you have to have much higher stats in order to get in.

Edit: I came in earlier today and I've just soldered this quad helix. It's not the most beautiful looking, most symmetrical looking quad but I am sure it does the job fine. I'll see my first patient at 2pm (15 minutes from now) and I should be done 3.5 hours later....what a wonderful profession!

Edit 2: It's 5:52PM now....and I am already at home watching the Thursday Night football game.
 

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In order to maintain the success of your business, you always have to do your best to keep your patients and referral GPs happy. Reputation doesn't happen overnight. This is important, especially when you are practicing in a very competitive area. You can't make a bad chow fun dish, if you set up your restaurant in Chinatown area.

When I said my patients are not picky, I meant they trust me and let me do my job. They don't ask me a lot of questions so I have more time to focus on patient treatments. They don't demand a loose bracket to be repaired at the time and day of the week that they want. They don't look up stuff on the internet. They don't dictate the treatments etc.

I've said ortho is easy because I compare my kind of work to those of my MD brother, my MD anesthesiologist cousin, my family physician, my general dentist friends, my pharmacist sister-in-law etc. If you divide these healthcare professionals' incomes by the total number of hours that they work, I think we, orthddontists, make the most $$$ per hour. I stand by my earlier statement that ortho is an overpaid specialty.

The reason I want my kids to pursue medicine instead of following my footstep is I am afraid they will think like most of the new grad orthos: no medicaid, no insurance, FFS only, rich patients only, no working on Saturdays and Sundays, spending $500k to set up a practice etc. It's hard to succeed as an orthodontist with this mentality. It's not their fault....it's mine because I spoil them. They don't even know how to wash dishes and do chores around the house because I am afraid they will not have enough time to study. The only sacrifice they've made is they study a lot harder than most of their classmates.

My newphew is applying for dental school right now. He took calculus, gen chem, and bio classes at a community college. He then transferred to one of thhe UC schools in CA. His GPA and DAT score are just ok and so far, he has received 5 dental school interviews. His cousin (my niece) got a 3.9 GPA and the MCATscore of 517....and all the med schools in CA that she applied to rejected her. She got accepted to an out-of-state med school. If you have last name Patel, Nguyen, Tran, Chang etc, you have to have much higher stats in order to get in.

Edit: I came in earlier today and I've just soldered this quad helix. It's not the most beautiful looking, most symmetrical looking quad but I am sure it does the job fine. I'll see my first patient at 2pm (15 minutes from now) and I should be done 3.5 hours later....what a wonderful profession!

Edit 2: It's 5:52PM now....and I am already at home watching the Thursday Night football game.

Interesting stuff. Best of luck to you. I would note that statistically your niece should have approximately an 85+% chance of acceptance so I’m not sure what’s going on there. Maybe CA is tougher for med school. Anyway, nice quad. Enjoy the game!
 
Would you consider orthodontics, with all its problems regarding saturation, SDC, etc over a competitive lifestyle specialty in medicine like Dermatology? It seems like medical specialties really look out for their own by tightly controlling the number of graduating residents each year. They would never allow a school like George School of Orthodontics with 18+ residents to form.

From what I understand, medical residency slots are capped by GME funding. So even if someone wanted to open a medical residency they couldn't. Dental residencies funded by GME money have no such caps, hence why pedo programs have exploded. Private dental residencies only have to show some bare minimum criteria and CODA lets them open.
 
Interesting stuff. Best of luck to you. I would note that statistically your niece should have approximately an 85+% chance of acceptance so I’m not sure what’s going on there. Maybe CA is tougher for med school. Anyway, nice quad. Enjoy the game!
Thanks, but I think it’s an ugly quad. The wire that my assistant gave me was too short….and that’s why everything on the right side (include the right extension arm) was a little bit shorter than the left side. I was just too lazy to get another wire to bend another one:).
 
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