Any PGY-5s unable to find a job by this point?

[20181121]

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Any PGY-5s unable to find a job by this point, now that we are close to the end of the year?

 

[goodbyeABR]

Yes. Contracts have been held up due to COVID with no additional updates as of yet. Hopeful something comes through but who knows.

 

[radoncgrad2019]

Yes. Contracts have been held up due to COVID with no additional updates as of yet. Hopeful something comes through but who knows.

this happened to you?

 

[medgator]

this happened to you?

Does it matter?

Several institutions in my region as well as nationally have cut pay for existing practitioners and put moratoriums on hiring post covid.

This shouldn't be surprising to anyone.

 

[radoncgrad2019]

yeah that's happened everywhere. that's a different matter.

what I'm curious about is if anyone has had contracts to get hired taken back. I have many friends in the class of 2020, and I want to know.

 

[seper]

I know a RadOnc who had a written offer to start June 1, but her contract has not come in the mail, and communication from the employer has been somewhat vague and evasive thus far .

 

[radoncgrad2019]

june 1?

oh i guess you mean a practicing rad onc, not a grad. yeah June 1 is coming up, that's prob a no go for her

 

[medgator]

june 1?

oh i guess you mean a practicing rad onc, not a grad. yeah June 1 is coming up, that's prob a no go for he

In the current job market, a BC physician with experience trumps a BE grad coming out of training....

 

[radoncgrad2019]

In the current job market, a BC physician with experience trumps a BE grad coming out of training....

what does this have to do with what was posted

 

[medgator]

what does this have to do with what was posted

Plenty. If you can read between the lines.

Hint: there are people applying to the same jobs as PGY5s and can, in fact, start before July 1st

 

[goodbyeABR]

this happened to you?

Should have been more specific, yes, this is my current situation. Offers haven't been officially pulled, but i'm not holding my breath either...

 

[radoncgrad2019]

Should have been more specific, yes, this is my current situation. Offers haven't been officially pulled, but i'm not holding my breath either...

sorry to hear

 

[scarbrtj]

Any PGY-5s unable to find a job by this point, now that we are close to the end of the year?

This of course is essentially the most germane question in the universe to about 1000 Americans: the ~800 rad oncs in training and the ~200 waiting in the ranks to join them. I do not think, even if someone shows up here with a bad story, an SDN post or two will tell the whole tale. I have hypothesized mostly what we get here is the "I Cheated Death and Survived" stories. Not getting a job right now as a graduate would easily be the most eventful and horrific event in lives of those ~200 people graduating right now. SDN wouldn't be a place they'd wanna work through that grief, more than likely. (Also, a high risk for doxxing by posting a no-job story in our little insular club.) However we SORELY need the data. I still also hypothesize that "gravity" exists: eg the gravity of hypofractionation, oversupply, APM and supervision stressors, COVID pressure, etc. However if gravity does not exist I need to really rework my theories.

And a side note: is getting a fellowship a job? Or underemployment? I don't consider it a job. Fellowship entry has been on rise for past several years too. It's a sign of lack of great job prospects usually. (Especially given that ours are not standardized and ACGME approved.) We also need that data.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Should have been more specific, yes, this is my current situation. Offers haven't been officially pulled, but i'm not holding my breath either...

this is very sad stuff,hope it works out for you.

it is an important point that medgator brings up, whenever you apply for a job you aren’t just competing with the oversupply of residents per year but with all other BC people who have a good track record and are Experienced. Its tough out there for a playa.

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

This of course is essentially the most germane question in the universe to about 1000 Americans: the ~800 rad oncs in training and the ~200 waiting in the ranks to join them. I do not think, even if someone shows up here with a bad story, an SDN post or two will tell the whole tale. I have hypothesized mostly what we get here is the "I Cheated Death and Survived" stories. Not getting a job right now as a graduate would easily be the most eventful and horrific event in lives of those ~200 people graduating right now. SDN wouldn't be a place they'd wanna work through that grief, more than likely. (Also, a high risk for doxxing by posting a no-job story in our little insular club.) However we SORELY need the data. I still also hypothesize that "gravity" exists: eg the gravity of hypofractionation, oversupply, APM and supervision stressors, COVID pressure, etc. However if gravity does not exist I need to really rework my theories.

And a side note: is getting a fellowship a job? Or underemployment? I don't consider it a job. Fellowship entry has been on rise for past several years too. It's a sign of lack of great job prospects usually. (Especially given that ours are not standardized and ACGME approved.) We also need that data.

Nailed it. All of the "employment surveys" have low response rates; sometime dreadfully so. Comprehensive reporting of >80% of graduates in the last five years is the only mechanism to determine the "state of the job market". Historically surveying residents/early career ROs has low response rate. Another solution is to require an accounting from all programs of what happened to its graduates. Of course they could lie but then the ACGME could use this to penalize those programs not providing accurate information.

 

[scarbrtj]

Comprehensive reporting of >80% of graduates in the last five years is the only mechanism to determine the "state of the job market"... Another solution is to require an accounting from all programs of what happened to its graduates.

Would be easy I think. I'm pretty sure that BSN programs e.g. do this.

 

[medgator]

Would be easy I think. I'm pretty sure that BSN programs e.g. do this.

Gainful employment is a pretty basic metric to look at in higher Ed

Dropping gainful employment means for-profits keep billions in student aid

Education Department's decision to drop gainful-employment rule will mean lowest-performing programs keep $5.3 billion over next decade.

www.insidehighered.com

 

[radoncgrad2019]

Plenty. If you can read between the lines.

Hint: there are people applying to the same jobs as PGY5s and can, in fact, start before July 1st

right - seper is talking about his friend who is a practicing rad onc who looks like her June 1st start date has been possibly rescinded. Again, I don’t think you quite understood the posts you were replying to.

 

[medgator]

right - seper is talking about his friend who is a practicing rad onc who looks like her June 1st start date has been possibly rescinded. Again, I don’t think you quite understood the posts you were replying to.

ROG2019 got banned. Shocked, i tell you, shocked.

In other news, heard through the grapevine MDA pulled two contracts for current PGY-5s.

There are still jobs out there in rural Minnesota, Michigan etc so hopefully they land somewhere

 

[thecarbonionangle]

In other news, heard through the grapevine MDA pulled two contracts for current PGY-5s.

There are still jobs out there in rural Minnesota, Michigan etc so hopefully they land somewhere

WOW sad stuff, very sad

 

[ProtonElectronNeutron]

ROG2019 got banned. Shocked, i tell you, shocked.

In other news, heard through the grapevine MDA pulled two contracts for current PGY-5s.

There are still jobs out there in rural Minnesota, Michigan etc so hopefully they land somewhere

Heard that !! If thats what’s happening at MDA, what will happen in all other places?

 

[deleted941485]

Heard that !! If thats what’s happening at MDA, what will happen in all other places?

I think the better question now would be how many people had their contracts rescinded, start dates delayed, or contract renegotiated?

 

[Mandelin Rain]

We’re getting to the point where graduating residents would be (potentially) buying houses in their new locales.

So now you have a house in Houston that you need to quickly dump from across the country in the midst of record unemployment and global pandemic?

I hope there is legal recourse to recoup damages if any sustained by these two residents.

 

[2014XRT]

When did these two residents find out?

 

[taserlaser]

We’re getting to the point where graduating residents would be (potentially) buying houses in their new locales.

So now you have a house in Houston that you need to quickly dump from across the country in the midst of record unemployment and global pandemic?

I hope there is legal recourse to recoup damages if any sustained by these two residents.

I sold my house a week or so before things got really crazy. I am so thankful I still ended up closing around Easter despite all of the craziness. There’s no way I would be able to sell in the current market, and prices have dropped since then.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

I sold my house a week or so before things got really crazy. I am so thankful I still ended up closing around Easter despite all of the craziness. There’s no way I would be able to sell in the current market, and prices have dropped since then.

I would say it may all depend on where you live. I spoke with a real estate agent recently who told me that a bunch of people in NY are trying to get down south to get away from another potential spike in the fall/winter. Now them being able to sell their houses is another story.

 

[taserlaser]

I would say it may all depend on where you live. I spoke with a real estate agent recently who told me that a bunch of people in NY are trying to get down south to get away from another potential spike in the fall/winter. Now them being able to sell their houses is another story.

Location location location. My house was in a an already downtrodden market where I did residency and not where I have been for the past academic year. It had already been on the market for most of that as I had been a bit of a stickler on price, and I consider it a small miracle it did sell. Absolutely there are going to be reasonable differences. Apparently there are still showings but I wouldn’t want to be banking on anything right now.

 

[deleted941485]

Nailed it. All of the "employment surveys" have low response rates; sometime dreadfully so. Comprehensive reporting of >80% of graduates in the last five years is the only mechanism to determine the "state of the job market". Historically surveying residents/early career ROs has low response rate. Another solution is to require an accounting from all programs of what happened to its graduates. Of course they could lie but then the ACGME could use this to penalize those programs not providing accurate information.

Like a lot of healthcare, there is zero transparency here. These crappy surveys only allow for the piggies to keep expanding while having plausible deniability.

Well now there are some desperate overachieving ROs out there who will pretty much work for peanuts. PPs may go fishing to see if they can hire one on the cheap.

 

[KHE88]

ROG2019 got banned. Shocked, i tell you, shocked.

In other news, heard through the grapevine MDA pulled two contracts for current PGY-5s.

There are still jobs out there in rural Minnesota, Michigan etc so hopefully they land somewhere

The Hibbing, MN looked legit if you're really desperate. At least you can make some decent money, and there's something to be said for that these days.
You basically have to be single to take these jobs. Getting a spouse or SO to move to these places is virtually impossible. I always think it's funny when they try to screen for that.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

The Hibbing, MN looked legit if you're really desperate. At least you can make some decent money, and there's something to be said for that these days.
You basically have to be single to take these jobs. Getting a spouse or SO to move to these places is virtually impossible. I always think it's funny when they try to screen for that.

how do you find your partners then? i cant imagine the tinder/Grindr game being too hot

 

[RadOncDoc21]

how do you find your gals then? i cant imagine the tinder game being too hot

Amazon prime might have some good options. Also need to add DoorDash for some biryani. I have a feeling this post might get deleted. My apologies to Evil and Neuronix!

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Amazon prime might have some good options. Also need to add DoorDash for some biryani. I have a feeling this post might get deleted. My apologies to Evil and Neuronix!

Discussions of SO and job market are undoubtedly intertwined.

that rural indiana job is still looking Evansville? Whats the deal?

 

[KHE88]

how do you find your partners then? i cant imagine the tinder/Grindr game being too hot

LOL. Not needed. Those are trashy enough even in big cities. Yuck.
Something about being a big fish in a little pond. People are constantly trying to set you up and the recently divorced crowd are literally throwing themselves at you. If that kind of thing interests you. The downside is what you would expect with small town nonsense. Everyone knows your business. My advice to the future Hibbing employee: keep your head low and resist the constant temptation to dip your pen in company ink.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

LOL. Not needed. Those are trashy enough even in big cities. Yuck.
Something about being a big fish in a little pond. People are constantly trying to set you up and the recently divorced crowd are literally throwing themselves at you. If that kind of thing interests you. The downside is what you would expect with small town nonsense. Everyone knows your business. My advice to the future Hibbing employee: keep your head low and resist the constant temptation to dip your pen in company ink.

i mean i wouldn’t know but i will take your word for it!
Stay away from nurses and therapists or coworkers. We all know someone who goes there, never ends well.
Sounds like you’re the big man Big HOSS on campus, even dabbling in the newly divorcée game. Good for you, and counting gold coins when you get home!

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Like a lot of healthcare, there is zero transparency here. These crappy surveys only allow for the piggies to keep expanding while having plausible deniability.

Well now there are some desperate overachieving ROs out there who will pretty much work for peanuts. PPs may go fishing to see if they can hire one on the cheap.

i agree the peanut game is just beginning in RO. I foresee the coming job cycle being very underwhelming

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Discussions of SO and job market are undoubtedly intertwined.

that rural indiana job is still looking Evansville? Whats the deal?

I saw an episode of Hoarders that was in Evansville, IN. Didn't look great.

 

[RADONC4285]

In other news, heard through the grapevine MDA pulled two contracts for current PGY-5s.

How confident are you in your sources? if this is true, imagine what it's like at other places and what hope do we rising PGY'5s have?

 

[medgator]

How confident are you in your sources? if this is true, imagine what it's like at other places and what hope do we rising PGY'5s have?

Fairly confident. They were not cancelled, rather pulled/deferred. Talk is cheap though in this job market imo and still screws people for a year assuming they are reinstated next summer

 

[RADONC4285]

Fairly confident. They were not cancelled, rather pulled/deferred. Talk is cheap though in this job market imo and still screws people for a year assuming they are reinstated next summer

Agreed. Wouldn't bank on them honoring the contracts for next year and what're those poor grads supposed to do for a year? Tough times

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Fairly confident. They were not cancelled, rather pulled/deferred. Talk is cheap though in this job market imo and still screws people for a year assuming they are reinstated next summer

I won't get too specific here, but I can also corroborate negative changes being enacted to graduating resident contracts at MDA (from real life, non-SDN sources).

Although to be clear, I believe this is COVID related and not necessarily oversupply related.

 

[medgator]

I won't get too specific here, but I can also corroborate negative changes being enacted to graduating resident contracts at MDA (from real life, non-SDN sources).

Although to be clear, I believe this is COVID related and not necessarily oversupply related.

Oversupply didn't help the specialty going into covid. So in a way, it still is

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Oversupply didn't help the specialty going into covid. So in a way, it still is

True. No matter the specialty though, 2020 and 2021 are not the best times to be a graduating resident.

I've always thought about going into HVAC...

 

[medgator]

True. No matter the specialty though, 2020 and 2021 are not the best times to be a graduating resident.

I've always thought about going into HVAC...

APM+supervision regs+covid the big FU trifecta to rad onc residents everywhere

 

[RADONC4285]

I guess this may be the year all of those middle of nowhere jobs get filled. Possibly without the nice salary that usually accompanies such jobs

 

[Palex80]

Stay away from nurses and therapists or coworkers. We all know someone who goes there, never ends well.

Not always true. I married mine. It can turn out very well!

 

[OTN]

I saw an episode of Hoarders that was in Evansville, IN. Didn't look great.

I have a good friend who is from Evansville and lives there. I've visited and enjoyed myself. It's actually a bigger town than you would think, with some nice areas. If you're ok with not being in a large city, it wouldn't be the worst place in the world.

 

[deleted774703]

I won't get too specific here, but I can also corroborate negative changes being enacted to graduating resident contracts at MDA (from real life, non-SDN sources).

Although to be clear, I believe this is COVID related and not necessarily oversupply related.

Yes COVID related but still sucks

Offers being pulled so painful. Can’t even imagine being in those shoes

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

I saw an episode of Hoarders that was in Evansville, IN. Didn't look great.

Never been to Evansville, but if I watched someone who lived in a house full of Elvis posters and dead cats pour soup bowls of diarrhea in their yard in Honolulu, I probably wouldn't want to head there.

 

[Gfunk6]

In other news, heard through the grapevine MDA pulled two contracts for current PGY-5s.

Can also verify this with 100% certainty

 

[2014XRT]

Can also verify this with 100% certainty

I am less than 100% certain but what I heard was it is two MDACC grads and it is still part of the plan that they will stay there but that it is a delayed hire. perhaps months.