Any returned Mormon missionaries out there?

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I am not angry or anything. I was just asking questions. So do the 10 commandments not apply today because they were given too long ago?

Many people say Joseph Smith was evil because of polygamy. I was just trying to see if anybody thought Abraham was evil because he did the same thing. I guess my question was more geared towards Mormon bashers. Sorry about that.

You say that the social context was different back then, so why don't we just throw away the whole Bible if it doesn't apply to us?

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I am not angry or anything. I was just asking questions. So do the 10 commandments not apply today because they were given too long ago?

Many people say Joseph Smith was evil because of polygamy. I was just trying to see if anybody thought Abraham was evil because he did the same thing. I guess my question was more geared towards Mormon bashers. Sorry about that.

You say that the social context was different back then, so why don't we just throw away the whole Bible if it doesn't apply to us?

Certain moral guidelines transcend time. Stealing was wrong 2000 BC and is wrong today. The bible itself is interesting because it provides a series of allegories from which these type of moral guidelines can be plucked. We don't disregard the bible as a whole, but we certainly disregard what is out of date. This is why religions evolve. Why do you think that blacks are now considered equal by mormons, while 100 years ago they weren't? Did they append the literature?

There is no "thou shalt not have 10 wives" commandment. This is not one of the moral guidelines that transcends time. There are numerous examples of punishments etc. that are quite grotesque to us today, which are found in the bible.

In short, we pick the larger, grander moral guidelines out of the bible from the stories it tells and apply them to our society today. But MOST do not follow the bible literally. I believe those people are called fundamentalists and they are dangerous.
 
The grotesque punishments you mention were part of the Law of Moses, which is described at length in the Old Testament. I am not talking about the Law of Moses here. Of course we don't do what was in the Law of Moses and of course those laws don't transcend time. Christ came and fulfilled that law and declared a new law.

Let's take a look at the New Testament. Forget the Law of Moses, which doesn't apply anymore (except to people that don't believe in Christ and still try to live the law of Moses). Are there grotesque punishments in there?

I don't think the world would be a bad place if people took what Christ taught in the New Testament literally. Can you name something grotesque that Christ taught?

By the way, Abraham was before the Law of Moses, so what he taught and did was not part of the law that has already been fulfilled.
 
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I love how this post started with some person wanting to know if there were any other RM's out there, and it turned out to be what I figured it would be.

It always amazes me how people always feel the need to bash Mormons, especially because most of the time they have no clue what they are talking about and have never visited the Church website to find out about the Mormon Church is all about.
 
The grotesque punishments you mention were part of the Law of Moses, which is described at length in the Old Testament. I am not talking about the Law of Moses here. Of course we don't do what was in the Law of Moses and of course those laws don't transcend time. Christ came and fulfilled that law and declared a new law.

Let's take a look at the New Testament. Forget the Law of Moses, which doesn't apply anymore (except to people that don't believe in Christ and still try to live the law of Moses). Are there grotesque punishments in there?

I don't think the world would be a bad place if people took what Christ taught in the New Testament literally. Can you name something grotesque that Christ taught?

By the way, Abraham was before the Law of Moses, so what he taught and did was not part of the law that has already been fulfilled.



I have not studied the bible enough to know what comes from the new testament and what comes from the old testament. your original question asked if we should disregard the entire bible because it is out of date.

I do not argue that Jesus was a remarkable person. I do not argue that his teachings are valuable to our society. I do not need to provide you with anything grotesque Jesus taught because the point of my previous post was simply to show that there is a difference between what was taught by the 10 commandments (simple universal moral codes which transcend time) and Abraham participating in polygamy (something socially justifiable at the time but NOT anymore). The point of this was to ultimately conclude that polygamy 2000 years BC is different than polygamy in the 20th century. Just as slavery in the 16th century was different than slavery today.

I don't think that you have refuted my argument that what is considered moral at one point in time, is not considered moral at a different point in time.

I will say however, that the bible has been used to justify slavery, and it has been used to sponsor some of the most discriminatory laws towards homosexuals that this country as ever seen. That is grotesque whether Christ intended this or not. (I believe he did not). And this is what can be dangerous about religion, not the bible by itself, but the zealous fundamentalist that interpret it.
 
Okay, so polygamy was okay for Abraham at that point in time, and apparently we don't know the reason.

The LDS Church also practiced polygamy for a short period of time. I am not exactly sure why, but it is clear that at certain points throughout history (Abraham and Israel are just examples) righteous people have engaged in polygamy. I agree with you that society changes, so today is much different than Joseph Smith's time.

It is NOT accepted now, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't part of the Lord's plan during the early part of the LDS Church, much as it was part of the Lord's plan during Abraham's time.

And as far as gay people are concerned, Christ taught love. That doesn't mean we have to agree with what people do. The Mormons don't believe in consuming alcohol. Does that mean the LDS Church discriminate against alcoholics? Do they discriminate against alcoholics because they won't allow them to hold church leadership positions because they drink?

The LDS Church preaches love towards everybody, including homosexuals. They will not back down and say that homosexuality is right before the eyes of God, just like they won't say drinking alcohol is right before the eyes of God. HOWEVER, ask any LDS Church leader if he would welcome a gay man to come to church and he would say yes in a heartbeat.

The church does take a stance on this, because they believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I don't think that is grotesque.
 
Okay, so polygamy was okay for Abraham at that point in time, and apparently we don't know the reason.

The LDS Church also practiced polygamy for a short period of time. I am not exactly sure why, but it is clear that at certain points throughout history (Abraham and Israel are just examples) righteous people have engaged in polygamy. I agree with you that society changes, so today is much different than Joseph Smith's time.

It is NOT accepted now, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't part of the Lord's plan during the early part of the LDS Church, much as it was part of the Lord's plan during Abraham's time.

And as far as gay people are concerned, Christ taught love. That doesn't mean we have to agree with what people do. The Mormons don't believe in consuming alcohol. Does that mean the LDS Church discriminate against alcoholics? Do they discriminate against alcoholics because they won't allow them to hold church leadership positions because they drink?

The LDS Church preaches love towards everybody, including homosexuals. They will not back down and say that homosexuality is right before the eyes of God, just like they won't say drinking alcohol is right before the eyes of God. HOWEVER, ask any LDS Church leader if he would welcome a gay man to come to church and he would say yes in a heartbeat.

The church does take a stance on this, because they believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I don't think that is grotesque.

I agree with you. And of course the church has to take a stance on issues, if it didn't, it would not stand for anything. What I was pointing out in the previous post, was that some people use these teachings as an excuse to discriminate. I believe whole heartedly that this is not the intent of the church. Nonetheless, it happens.

Personally though, I don't like the analogy between alcoholics and homosexuals, though I understand the point of it. I guess the difference is that I don't believe that homosexuality is anything more than a choice. I don't believe that it is any better or worse than choosing to be heterosexual. Alcoholism, however has a very negative connotation.

I also discussed the Lord's plan in a much earlier post, which is actually how we got started talking about the change in policy towards polygamy.

I hope that you understand that I have not been bashing Mormons in this thread, just discussing different aspects of the religion because it interests me.
 
OK. Back to the original topic...

I used what I did and learned in my mission. Both ecclesiastical and secular. Some interviewers asked me about it, some didn't. For the most part, it was viewed positively, even at some faith based schools.

As far as the religious discussion goes. While interesting, I don't think this is the appropriate venue for that kind of discussion since it doesn't really pertain to medical school. If you are curious about a faith, get the info straight from the horse's mouth. lds.org
 
To the OP. I talked a little bit about my mission, I served in Hong Kong 2001-2003. In my mind it really comes down to did the mission impact you in a way that is important for the ADCOMS to know. If it did, tell them why, if it didn't then don't talk about it. I find it hard to imagine that serving a mission didn't have any sort of effect on the person that you are today. I wrote a couple of different PS when I applied. In one of them I talked about Hong Kong and in the other I didn't. I ended up going with the version that talked about my mission. That was 10% of my life and it changed my views about alot of things. In most of my interviews I was asked about the experience, most people thought highly about the mission. Only one of my interviwers at University of Colorado thought it was a waste of time, but I don't like them anyway!

To everyone else debating mormonism, I think that Gary in the All About the Mormons episode of South Park said it the best.

Gary: [to Stan] Look, maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up, but I have a great life. and a great family, and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don't care if Joseph Smith made it all up, because what the church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people in this town might think that's stupid, I still choose to believe in it. All I ever did was try to be your friend, Stan, but you're so high and mighty you couldn't look past my religion and just be my friend back. You've got a lot of growing up to do, buddy. Suck my balls.
[turns around and walks off]
Eric Cartman: Damn, that kid is cool, huh?

All lessons can be learned from South Park. It doesn't really matter how or what you believe it matters what you do with your life and how you treat others.
 
Someone said...."I think your irritation might stem from a misunderstanding of WHY we proselytize. Two reasons: 1-We believe we are commanded to share the message of restored gospel. 2-It has been very important in our lives and has made us happy."


How can you be a good doctor if you feel this way? It's disgraceful and absurd?! conversion is the ultimate form of racism and exploitation. if you want to help people, set up schools but don't do it in the name of religion. do it b/c you want to help them. converting them is no different than carrying out colonialist policies.
if i actually felt the way you did about your religion, i'd be ashamed to put mission trips for the purpose of conversion on my application; how can you expect to be a doctor who doesn't judge his/her patients when you inherently believe someone is inferior for not sharing your religious beliefs?
 
I love how this post started with some person wanting to know if there were any other RM's out there, and it turned out to be what I figured it would be.

It always amazes me how people always feel the need to bash Mormons, especially because most of the time they have no clue what they are talking about and have never visited the Church website to find out about the Mormon Church is all about.

Mormons are in a tough spot. They have a history of polygamy, racism, and magic underwear - these are things that the average person has difficulty embracing. These are not 'jump on the Mormons' things, these are real events in their history. Magic underwear is still worn. Most importantly, Mormons poach a lot of Christians - which gets the majority of the US against them.

People somehow think it's okay to bash religions when their religion can be made to sound just as ridiculous because people are short sighted and silly. If religions made sense, they wouldn't require faith. I'm not jumping on the pile, I'm explaining why everyone bashes the Mormons - it's an easy target and people want to somehow feel like their own religion is somehow better (when it's not).
 
Someone said...."I think your irritation might stem from a misunderstanding of WHY we proselytize. Two reasons: 1-We believe we are commanded to share the message of restored gospel. 2-It has been very important in our lives and has made us happy."


How can you be a good doctor if you feel this way? It's disgraceful and absurd?! conversion is the ultimate form of racism and exploitation. if you want to help people, set up schools but don't do it in the name of religion. do it b/c you want to help them. converting them is no different than carrying out colonialist policies.
if i actually felt the way you did about your religion, i'd be ashamed to put mission trips for the purpose of conversion on my application; how can you expect to be a doctor who doesn't judge his/her patients when you inherently believe someone is inferior for not sharing your religious beliefs?

3rd world conversion may be a bit arrogant - "we know the truth and have to teach it to you". But going door to door in the US isn't racist or exploiting. If you believe in your whatever, you're obligated to follow those beliefs.

When a Jehova's witness refuses a blood transfusion and you think to yourself, "this ***** is going to die because they're being an idiot" - you're judging them and assuming you're smarter than them. But, as a physician, you keep your trap shut - Mormons tend to be the same way. I have one in my study group and she knows better than to try to convert any of us.
 
Mormons are in a tough spot. They have a history of polygamy, racism, and magic underwear - these are things that the average person has difficulty embracing. Magic underwear is still worn.

The RM's can correct me, if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that polygamy was practiced during a time of great persecution of the Mormon people. The Mormons had been driven from place to place (sometimes being driven out in the middle of the night in the snow in bare feet with their children), many of the men had been killed by mobs and attacks, and most lost their homes and belongings. These widows needed husbands to help provide for them and their children (shelter and protection.) I think this was the basic premise of the practice of polygamy at that time. And many young women (fifteen or so) were being married at that time, even to older men, so that wasn't terribly uncommon. By the time polygamy was abolished, the Mormons were pretty "settled" in Salt Lake City and the practice was no longer necessary for the survival of its members.

The Church no longer practices polygamy nor tolerates its practice within the church. Mormons support and uphold the law.

Regarding the magic underwear. That's pretty funny. I think "sacred" is a better term. The underwear is really just a reminder that Mormons have made promises to try and live righteously (and also to encourage modesty). Again, they are not required, just recommended.
 
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So here is my understanding of your argument:

God is omniscient. He has a plan for each of our lives, a plan for the entire world. BUT this is not necessarily how things will play out, because we still have free will. If we do give ourselves to Him, we must give up our desire to understand why He chooses certain actions and steps, and recognize it is all part of His grand scheme. This is the right thing to do because in God there is truth, and in God all is right. Day to day sufferings and pleasures are simply steps along the truthful path.

So, allowing polygamy then disallowing polygamy are just steps on this path. When God told Joseph Smith that it is right to have many wives, this was part of God's plan. However, in light of the mounting social pressures put on the church by those who exercised their free will and said "NO POLYGAMY IS WRONG" God was forced to detour. He said "Ok fine, polygamy is wrong" and quickly drew up a new, slightly less efficient version, of His original framework in order to incorporate this new rule.

I believe my view to be much simpler because there is one less force to deal with, God.

In my view, a church was founded to explain things that otherwise were not explainable. It was founded to deal with people's fear that they would join the "wrong church" just as Joseph Smith feared he would. If you join the wrong church, I have been told by pastors and priests, you go to hell. And nobody wants to go to hell right? So this new church, Mormonism, which is the right church, was founded.

Now, if it is a new church, it has to be different than the old churches, or it is the same church. So, Joseph Smith had to set his church apart enough to make it different, but not so much apart that people would have to adopt an entirely new view, and understanding of reality to join. He was smart. He did not want to alienate potential followers. So, he said (among many other things) you Christians are close, but here is where you are wrong. He added polygamy, and a whole bunch of other things, but left the central tenets of Christianity in tact. He gained followers.

The Church grew and grew and I think now is the fastest growing religion in America. It survived, it drew people in, but soon some of those things that set it apart from mainstream Christianity came in to question. Women didn't like having to deal with polygamy, black men wanted equality. So, the church adapted. If it did not adapt, it would die. People would not join a religion that promotes racism and sexism so overtly (I know other religions do this too, and are also guilty of adapting to save themselves). Mormonism changed, not because God said all of a sudden "I decree that there shall be no more polygamy, and yes I suppose black men are equal to white men", but because if it did not change it would die off and be no more.

Darwin's concept of fitness (a very very simple concept) applies to everything, not just finches.

So, this explanation is simpler than the God explanation, because it does not rely on God. It relies solely on the principles Darwin set out hundreds of years ago. It relies only on human nature, and not human nature plus God.


You adapt or you die.


Again, I am always very cautious when I discuss religion because it is very dear to all. Please do not take offense to any of this. This is just what I believe. I respect what you believe, and often have wondered what my life would be like if I was able to trust so much in things I can't perceive. I admire your faith.

Well said.
 
The RM's can correct me, if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that polygamy was practiced during a time of great persecution of the Mormon people. The Mormons had been driven from place to place (sometimes being driven out in the middle of the night in the snow in bare feet with their children), many of the men had been killed by mobs and attacks, and most lost their homes and belongings. These widows needed husbands to help provide for them and their children (shelter and protection.) I think this was the basic premise of the practice of polygamy at that time. And many young women (fifteen or so) were being married at that time, even to older men, so that wasn't terribly uncommon. By the time polygamy was abolished, the Mormons were pretty "settled" in Salt Lake City and the practice was no longer necessary for the survival of its members.

Joseph Smith was a polygamist - they couldn't have been mobbing against the religion before it started. Polygamy is so one man can have sex with lots of women, not so one man can protect lots of women.

The Church no longer practices polygamy nor tolerates its practice within the church. Mormons support and uphold the law.

I wasn't suggesting they do. The crazy off-shoot sects do, but that's a technicality - the main church is no longer racist/polygamist/etc.

Regarding the magic underwear. That's pretty funny. I think "sacred" is a better term. The underwear is really just a reminder that Mormons have made promises to try and live righteously (and also to encourage modesty). Again, they are not required, just recommended.

They believe that the underwear protect them - they really do. There are stories of people in war surviving b/c of their magic underwear. If you call it sacred underwear, it's not nearly as funny. I also use the term magic b/c most Mormons refuse to discuss details about them.
 
BTW, to all the RM's out there reading this - I would like to honestly thank you for chilling out in recent years. I understand that you get excited about what you speak to others about and it's tough to know when to back down when you have something to teach that you feel is so important. A friend of mine sent me an article discussing this movement in the church and I think it will benefit all parties involved.

All the missionaries I've spoken to recently have been much more aware of boundaries but still excited about their message. So, thank you.
 
I believe my view to be much simpler because there is one less force to deal with, God.

Darwin's concept of fitness (a very very simple concept) applies to everything, not just finches.

So, this explanation is simpler than the God explanation, because it does not rely on God. It relies solely on the principles Darwin set out hundreds of years ago. It relies only on human nature, and not human nature plus God.


You adapt or you die.

Well, if God created everything, then all of the "concepts" that are being discovered by humans were already there from the beginning. Humans are just revealing what is already there created by God. If you want to call that science, then be my guest. BTW, I love science because it explains how things work.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." -Albert Einstein. This quote pretty much sums up how I feel.
 
Well, if God created everything, then all of the "concepts" that are being discovered by humans were already there from the beginning. Humans are just revealing what is already there created by God. If you want to call that science, then be my guest. BTW, I love science because it explains how things work.

If malushka the evil sea monster created "God" then all of the "concepts" we are discovering about "God" were already there from the beginning. If you want to call that religion, be my guest.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." -Albert Einstein. This quote pretty much sums up how I feel.

I guess you pretty much feel misinformed?
Read into what Einstein was talking about when he spoke of religion - he was not talking about anything supernatural.
 
If malushka the evil sea monster created "God" then all of the "concepts" we are discovering about "God" were already there from the beginning. If you want to call that religion, be my guest.

WOW :laugh:

I guess you pretty much feel misinformed?
Read into what Einstein was talking about when he spoke of religion - he was not talking about anything supernatural.

I'm sorry if I am misinformed. Could you please post some kind of link that would allow me to read about this. Thanks!
 
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YPyvJacwUI[/YOUTUBE]
 
I'm sorry if I am misinformed. Could you please post some kind of link that would allow me to read about this. Thanks!

http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/

Einstein strongly resented people using his quotes for purposes of religion. Depending on context and period of his life, you can put him somewhere between atheist, agnostic, and pantheist. His talk of religion was very misleading, especially out of context. God not playing dice, for example, refers to his unflappable (and ultimately incorrect) opinion that the universe is too ordered to be probabilistic.
 
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YPyvJacwUI[/YOUTUBE]

There's nothing better than someone who is an atheist to a few dozen religions, but so sure of their own that they refuse to read a single book that could suggest otherwise.
 
http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/

Einstein strongly resented people using his quotes for purposes of religion. Depending on context and period of his life, you can put him somewhere between atheist, agnostic, and pantheist. His talk of religion was very misleading, especially out of context. God not playing dice, for example, refers to his unflappable (and ultimately incorrect) opinion that the universe is too ordered to be probabilistic.

Thanks for the link! I stand corrected.

I wasn't really trying to use Albert Einstein in favor of my argument (sorry if it seemed that way). I just like the quote because it's what I think.
 
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