Any serious bodybuilder here?

[D30417995]

By serious I don't mean being competitive but one who would hit the gym and lift weights regularly year in and year out.

For those of you who do, are you taking protein supplements? From what I've learned from nutrition classes, protein supplements are totally unnecessary and could in fact hurt the body if their ratio of amino acids used ain't right. However, if we were to take in 1 g of protein for each pound of body weight, it would be fairly difficult to obtain that amount of protein with whole food. What are you guys' solution to this?

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[Wizard of Oz]

I'm way too fat to be a competative bodybuilder (not to mention too small), but what you are saying is mostly true for someone who eats a balanced diet. The supplement companies believe that they can sell you the product based on muscle protein breakdown following a workout without also telling you that the available amino acids from the breakdown can themselves be used to rebuild. They basically want you to believe that you just pee out the amino acids so that you have to re-consume them. This should not be the case if your kidneys are functioning properly. True, you will need a little bit more to make your muscles ever so slightly larger on a day-to-day basis, but you should have plenty in your diet if you are getting your proper servings in.

There is some research that suggests that supplmenting with branched-chain and other essentials results in mass building for people who eat a protein-limiting diet (such as a professional bodybuilder who can't afford to consume fat). By and large, however, for 99.99% of the population, protein supplements are just a waste of money (especially when you look at how much protein you're getting for the cost). If you want protein, eat a steak! The key is to eat a balanced diet. I advocate amino acid supplements only for people who are intentionally staying low-cal by avoiding whole food groups.

With that said, I have run into a couple of people who swear by the whey because they think it makes them bigger. Having seen them in the flesh, any delusions that the supplements give them more muscle are via placebo effect only, but I let them think that it's the powder that's working.

The solution to the problem that you mentioned is to use kilograms instead of pounds, which is what the 1 gram refers to. I'm quite sure that I meet this expectation each day. In an exercising person, the demand may go up to 1.4 grams per kilo body mass, but it's simply not easy to make that determination because you can't standardize a workout regimen over a significant sample size.

 

[albaniandoc]

I try to be serious when I workout but sometimes I cannot help but stare at the nice looking girls in the gym and a big smile just comes out. Just kidding.

I tend to respectfully disagree with the above poster. I have been working out since I was 14 (now 27) and have also worked as a personal trainer for several years. I think protein supplements are an excellent way of supplementing your diet, but that's it just a SUPPLEMENT. Most of your nutrition should come from solid diet.
I used to work full time and also go to school full time, so often I did not have the time to cook 6 meals. I would consume 2 shakes per day. As long as you realize that your main source of nutrition should not be the shakes you are ok. Right now I only take one shake right after the workout, supplemented with some creatine, glutamine and a multivitamin. I take about 40-50 grams of protein after the workout. The period right after the workout is the most important time to consume protein and simple carbs because the muscles are starving for nutrition. This will tremendously help your recovery.
Finally, I tried to gain some weight a few years back and went up to 220 lbs with a 36 inch waist (5'8" tall) and used a lot of protein and supplements. I gained a lot of muscle rapidly, and it was due to protein consumption and heavy, heavy workouts. I don't recommend anyone taking in 350 grams of protein a day but I think if you are a serious lifter you should take about 1 gram of protein per pound of lean muscle. In other words if you weigh 200 lbs with 10% bodyfat (you have 180 lbs of muscle and 20 lbs of fat) you should take 150 - 180 grams of protein. If you drink two shakes per day you should easily get 80-100 grams and then the rest by nutrition.
As far general population goes, I know people try to reduce their calories in an effort to lose weight and they don't realize that muscle is metabolically active, in other words it needs calories to survive. So they lose a lot of muscle and fat at the same time. If you lose muscle then you reduce your basal metabolic rate which in turn reduces the chances for healthy weight loss. These people feel tired and are cold all the time because their body is trying to work with minimal energy.
The opposite is true. People that are dieting should do so with the help of exercise and a moderate protein diet which helps retain or gain more muscle mass. The more muscle mass one has the more calories they need to maintain the muscle and therefore have a higher basal metabolic rate. So these people lose more fat at rest as well. One example is professional bodybuilders that even though they eat a lot they have a hard time gaining fat because all the energy goes into maintaining their muscle size.

Good luck to you

 

[TexasFool]

I used to be really into going to the gym but I didn´t go for a while and now I´m starting up again

 

[Wizard of Oz]

I tend to respectfully disagree with the above poster. I have been working out since I was 14 (now 27) and have also worked as a personal trainer for several years. I think protein supplements are an excellent way of supplementing your diet, but that's it just a SUPPLEMENT. Most of your nutrition should come from solid diet.

I've also been weight training for over a decade, but when I briefly worked as a trainer, the gym told me to try to sell stuff that I didn't think was appropriate (like selling creatine and protein powder to a 350-lb. sedentary individual). I agree with the last sentence that I quoted above.

Right now I only take one shake right after the workout, supplemented with some creatine, glutamine and a multivitamin. I take about 40-50 grams of protein after the workout.

Creatine has to be loaded to work. Also, keep in mind the absorption threshold for the substance. Most lay people don't understand this. Also, if you really are eating a balanced diet, the multivitamin isn't going to do much for you.

Finally, I tried to gain some weight a few years back and went up to 220 lbs with a 36 inch waist (5'8" tall) and used a lot of protein and supplements. I gained a lot of muscle rapidly, and it was due to protein consumption and heavy, heavy workouts.

Again, if you are 5'8" and 220, you either have the body of someone I would consider to be a professional bodybuilder/boxer or are obese. You also can't separate the effect of the protein from the "heavy, heavy workouts."

As to the creatine, to me, if it works your body is no longer natural. Such decreases my pride in my appearance, so I don't advocate supplements at all. Like I said, if you want protein, eat steak. Overall, what I seek is cardiovascular fitness and an exercise regimen that I can couple with eating right.

Here is my professional advice for 99.99% of all people (since this is resolution season and all). If you are sedentary, focus on the cardio first. Sign up for the gym. If you can exercise for thrity continuous minutes on a cardio modality several times a week for a couple of months, THEN we can talk about weights. (Again, this is why I failed as a personal trainer--people don't need help to use a treadmill.) If you are unwilling or unable to commit yourself to that, then everybody's time is being wasted. If you start with a detailed workout, you reduce compliance and lower your ability to actually help the client.

 

[albaniandoc]

I've also been weight training for over a decade, but when I briefly worked as a trainer, the gym told me to try to sell stuff that I didn't think was appropriate (like selling creatine and protein powder to a 350-lb. sedentary individual). I agree with the last sentence that I quoted above.



Creatine has to be loaded to work. Also, keep in mind the absorption threshold for the substance. Most lay people don't understand this. Also, if you really are eating a balanced diet, the multivitamin isn't going to do much for you.



Again, if you are 5'8" and 220, you either have the body of someone I would consider to be a professional bodybuilder/boxer or are obese. You also can't separate the effect of the protein from the "heavy, heavy workouts."

As to the creatine, to me, if it works your body is no longer natural. Such decreases my pride in my appearance, so I don't advocate supplements at all. Like I said, if you want protein, eat steak. Overall, what I seek is cardiovascular fitness and an exercise regimen that I can couple with eating right.

Here is my professional advice for 99.99% of all people (since this is resolution season and all). If you are sedentary, focus on the cardio first. Sign up for the gym. If you can exercise for thrity continuous minutes on a cardio modality several times a week for a couple of months, THEN we can talk about weights. (Again, this is why I failed as a personal trainer--people don't need help to use a treadmill.) If you are unwilling or unable to commit yourself to that, then everybody's time is being wasted. If you start with a detailed workout, you reduce compliance and lower your ability to actually help the client.

Hey Wizard of Oz, I figured I would try to discuss what you say, not to make it a pissing contest but rather for the sake of an intellectual debate (that and the fact that I got a ****load of time until school starts)

I think we both agree in principle. Supplements should be used only to supplement your nutrition, however how do you know exactly how much protein or vitamins are you getting? Therefore, I find that a multivitamin will not hurt and might supplement somewhat. Plus, for people with busy lifestyles where they cannot cook six solid meals everyday, I find that meal replacement shakes are an excellent way of supplementing your workouts. Now do you really need them? Not really, but I know I don't have time to cook meal after meal, so I would rather eat a shake or two.
Another point is supplements like chondroitin or Arnica, which are invaluable for people. I use Arnica like it's going out of style and love it. And people with joints problems swear about chondroitin. So I think not recommending any supplements at all is not a good decision. Docs I work with that are into fitness take pills by the handful.
Trying to push you to sell supplements is not just unethical but unsafe as well, but working in the industry for 5 years I can tell you that it is pretty common for the companies to do so.
I have also found out that whether you are loading creatine or not the results are the same. This is the sentiment I have gotten from other bodybuilders/fitness people as well. Loading was being advocated a while back, but I think now the companies have done away with it. As far as considering a bodybuilder not being natural because he/she uses creatine I think it's a little rough. Where do you draw the line between natural and unnatural. Creatine is found naturally in beef so it's not that it is an anabolic substance or anything, but you have to eat a ton of beef to get the same amount as the supplement. Does taking a multivitamin make you not natural? Does taking pro-hormones make you not natural? Where is the line?
I think it's perfectly ok to use supplements as long as they are backed up by medical research.
I am not sure that you realize just how big the professional bodybuilders are. Most of them are in the upper 200s lower 300lb range in the offseason, and as a 220 lb lifter I didn't even come close to looking like a pro. At that weight I would have had to drop at least 30lbs to come to contest shape. That meant that I would have probably competed as a a middleweight, (183lbs as per Musclemania standards I believe) considering rigorous bodybuilding competition preps which include fat loss as well as lean tissue loss and water.

 

[degoo_]

Not a serious builder, I just do it for fun and health.
I weighed 175 and took whey protein almost everyday (certainly every workout day), and maintained my weight. I do a good balance of high-intensity cardio (HR = 50, woohoo), and weights.
Surprisingly, I didn't think that the supplement was really doing much. So I stopped buying protein (its been 6 months now without it), and I weigh 165lbs. I can still lift what I was before, but haven't increased any weights all semester. I thought I'd eat a lot of protein in my diet to compensate for the lack of whey, but even with eating lots of fish, chicken, cottage cheese and beans, I still lost the weight.
Its surprising that I'd lose so much weight, which I assume is fat since I haven't lost lifting capacity, when the whey protein stopped. Makes me feel that there is something to the supplement.

 

[cfdavid]

screw the protein powder. go straight for the testosterone cypionate, then use some clomid coming off the cycle, and possible some hCG to get the nuts back.


just kidding ofcourse.

 

[Edison]

knock out the myostatin gene

 

[BellyDancingDoc]

There's a user on here named "Dedikated2Liftin," or something close to that. Try doing a Search for him- he's also a serious bodybuilder.

 

[Hayden2102]

Is HCG = human chorionic gonadotropin? I thought that was only in women?

 

[cfdavid]

Is HCG = human chorionic gonadotropin? I thought that was only in women?

yeah, but in pregnant women, it serves as an LH analog to maintain the corpus luteum. bodybuilders have been on to this for years to prevent permanent testicular atrophy and to reboot endogenous T production, since the "LH" (i.e. hCG) stimulates the testicles to produce testosterone (after having been shut down for a while during the cycle). also, the clomid is a female (and also, sometimes male) fertility pill. It increases FSH. So, the clomid can help prevent testicular atrophy by stimulating the sertoli cells and also combating the traditional (potential) sterility that can result when some yahoo goes bonkers on the juice without first educating himself (and evaluating risk/reward).

 

[cfdavid]

knock out the myostatin gene

A few years back there was a kid in Germany that lacked (or had a non-functional) myostatin gene. I saw a picture of him at 2 years, and he was already pretty bulky (but solid). I've seen pictures of bull cattle with that gene knocked out. Lots of meat on that thing. It was HUGE.

I'm interested to see what happens to this German kid. I don't think it's been seen before, but I'm sure they'll be protecting him from the media to some degree.

 

[D30417995]

yeah, but in pregnant women, it serves as an LH analog to maintain the corpus luteum. bodybuilders have been on to this for years to prevent permanent testicular atrophy and to reboot endogenous T production, since the "LH" (i.e. hCG) stimulates the testicles to produce testosterone (after having been shut down for a while during the cycle). also, the clomid is a female (and also, sometimes male) fertility pill. It increases FSH. So, the clomid can help prevent testicular atrophy by stimulating the sertoli cells and also combating the traditional (potential) sterility that can result when some yahoo goes bonkers on the juice without first educating himself (and evaluating risk/reward).

gee, all these terms i learned in embryology have become a blur already! am i the only one?

 

[eon462]

By and large, however, for 99.99% of the population, protein supplements are just a waste of money (especially when you look at how much protein you're getting for the cost). If you want protein, eat a steak! The key is to eat a balanced diet.

Whey protein supplement is extremely cheap for the amount of protein you get. Especially compared to steak.

Here is my professional advice for 99.99% of all people (since this is resolution season and all). If you are sedentary, focus on the cardio first. Sign up for the gym. If you can exercise for thrity continuous minutes on a cardio modality several times a week for a couple of months, THEN we can talk about weights. (Again, this is why I failed as a personal trainer--people don't need help to use a treadmill.) If you are unwilling or unable to commit yourself to that, then everybody's time is being wasted. If you start with a detailed workout, you reduce compliance and lower your ability to actually help the client.

Resistance training is very important for people trying to lose weight, why would you advise against it to begin with?

 

[Wizard of Oz]

Whey protein supplement is extremely cheap for the amount of protein you get. Especially compared to steak.

Resistance training is very important for people trying to lose weight, why would you advise against it to begin with?

You're probably right about the protein powders with respect to the cost. I was thinking more about the amino acid tablets.

I'm not advising against resistance training, but at the gyms where I've been a member, January memberships typically out-sell all of the other months combined while 3/4 of those memberships are terminated before spring commenses. Why? At least two reasons--1. The individual is not seeing a quick enough benefit from the exercise. 2. The individual isn't really willing to commit the time necessary to make a lifestyle change.

You have a client come in who is 50 lbs. overweight and wants to be healthier. Is he/she going to see any benefit from resistance training within the first six weeks? Prolly not. So they quit. It's not worth their time. However, if you can get them committed to 30 minutes on the elliptical, in my experience, they WILL see an improvement in fitness. Once they install regular cardio exercise as a cornerstone of their daily routine, THEN you encourage the resistance training. If you start 'em on a weight-training plan and they just quit two weeks later, you didn't do them any service.

I am ALL FOR resistance training and how it can help metabolism and body image. Unfortunately, though, we live in a society obsessed with instant gratification. It's just not a realistic goal to get a sedentary person to all-of-a-sudden commit to a full training regimen.

 

[45408]

By and large, however, for 99.99% of the population, protein supplements are just a waste of money (especially when you look at how much protein you're getting for the cost). If you want protein, eat a steak!

You're kidding, right? A steak with 30-40g of protein could easily cost you $10, whereas a scoop of whey with the same amount of protein is more like $0.50. Most serious bodybuilders take in at least 1g of protein per pound of lean body mass, and it works pretty well. I'm not going to lie, I don't understand all the biochem behind it, but based on the results of someone like Coleman, Levrone, or especially Dave Tate, I'd say it builds muscle.

If you are sedentary, focus on the cardio first. Sign up for the gym. If you can exercise for thrity continuous minutes on a cardio modality several times a week for a couple of months, THEN we can talk about weights. (Again, this is why I failed as a personal trainer--people don't need help to use a treadmill.) If you are unwilling or unable to commit yourself to that, then everybody's time is being wasted. If you start with a detailed workout, you reduce compliance and lower your ability to actually help the client.

Weight lifting is good for everyone. Increased muscle mass will increase their resting metabolic rate, burning off the calories faster. The bigger I get (muscle, not fat), the more I need to eat to stay at that size.

You have a client come in who is 50 lbs. overweight and wants to be healthier. Is he/she going to see any benefit from resistance training within the first six weeks? Prolly not. So they quit. It's not worth their time. However, if you can get them committed to 30 minutes on the elliptical, in my experience, they WILL see an improvement in fitness.

Only if their diet is matching. For most people, body composition/size is about 10% genetics, 30% gym time, and 60% diet. There's a reason for the saying "Six-packs are made in the kitchen."


Honestly, it's simple if you're a bodybuilder - Eat big. Lift big. Get big. We could talk until we were blue in the face about 3-board bench presses, eccentric contractions, West Side BB training styles, amino acid supplements, glycemic indexes, etc, but if you eat a lot, lift often and with large weights, you'll gain muscle.

 

[Discobolus]

A guy in my class won the overall at the State Bodybuilding Championship this last Summer. Even more amazing is that it was at the end of his 3rd year.

 

[eon462]

I'm not advising against resistance training, but at the gyms where I've been a member, January memberships typically out-sell all of the other months combined while 3/4 of those memberships are terminated before spring commenses. Why? At least two reasons--1. The individual is not seeing a quick enough benefit from the exercise. 2. The individual isn't really willing to commit the time necessary to make a lifestyle change.

You have a client come in who is 50 lbs. overweight and wants to be healthier. Is he/she going to see any benefit from resistance training within the first six weeks? Prolly not. So they quit. It's not worth their time. However, if you can get them committed to 30 minutes on the elliptical, in my experience, they WILL see an improvement in fitness. Once they install regular cardio exercise as a cornerstone of their daily routine, THEN you encourage the resistance training. If you start 'em on a weight-training plan and they just quit two weeks later, you didn't do them any service.

I am ALL FOR resistance training and how it can help metabolism and body image. Unfortunately, though, we live in a society obsessed with instant gratification. It's just not a realistic goal to get a sedentary person to all-of-a-sudden commit to a full training regimen.

with resistance training, they'll see strength gains before anything... maybe that would convince them its working

 

[Wizard of Oz]

You're kidding, right? A steak with 30-40g of protein could easily cost you $10, whereas a scoop of whey with the same amount of protein is more like $0.50. Most serious bodybuilders take in at least 1g of protein per pound of lean body mass, and it works pretty well. I'm not going to lie, I don't understand all the biochem behind it, but based on the results of someone like Coleman, Levrone, or especially Dave Tate, I'd say it builds muscle.

Honestly, it's simple if you're a bodybuilder - Eat big. Lift big. Get big. We could talk until we were blue in the face about 3-board bench presses, eccentric contractions, West Side BB training styles, amino acid supplements, glycemic indexes, etc, but if you eat a lot, lift often and with large weights, you'll gain muscle.

I'm not denying the fact that it works for professional bodybuilders. Look how how much body fat those guys have. I also already yielded about the whey powder, but I can get a small steak for about $3 at my grocery store. My cost issue is more with the amino acid tablets.

with resistance training, they'll see strength gains before anything... maybe that would convince them its working

I'll buy that, but they're coming to you to lose fat. Thirty minutes on the treadmill a few days a week will bring them closer to that goal than weights.

The issue is about compliance. Let's compare this to medicine. I will share with you a personal experience from my lesser-educated days (not unlike a naive fledgling exerciser). I go to the doc with high blood pressure (150/85). He writes a script for a drug that gives me ED, and my blood pressure never even dropped. I never go back to him, and years later I avoid BP meds at all costs. Why? I'll deal with 150/85 as long as I can get it up when I want to. The penalty to my life isn't worth the trade-off.

Likewise, when an overweight person comes to you and wants help, you can't start them on a 1-2 hour routine. They'll quickly find a reason not to go to the gym because other things in their life are more important. Since the cardio will give them a better health benefit if they are indeed sedentary and overweight, starting there is a better approach.

So back to my analogy. You'll likely counter by saying, "That's why you discuss the side effects," but there is a difference between talking about them and experiencing them. Same goes for exercise. Sure the client KNOWS that it will take time to change their health, but once the person actually commits the time, other things suddenly become more important. So I think it best to focus on the cardio first. If they aren't willing to do it, then there's no use in trying to get them to use weights.

 

[albaniandoc]

I honestly, don't think that cardio increases exercise retention. In fact it's probably quite the contrary. It is hard and it is boring. It is the same thing day in and day out. Unless the obese people are out there climbing the mountains (which I highly doubt) exercising on a bike gets boring as hell. Cardio classes are really hard for beginners. I used to teach spinning and people would train six months before coming to spinning because they could not keep up with it. It's an intense class. I think that resistance training is awesome for everyone.
By the way I bought a big jug of whey protein for $13 at Wal Mart. Awesome price.

 

[D30417995]

I honestly, don't think that cardio increases exercise retention. In fact it's probably quite the contrary. It is hard and it is boring. It is the same thing day in and day out. Unless the obese people are out there climbing the mountains (which I highly doubt) exercising on a bike gets boring as hell. Cardio classes are really hard for beginners. I used to teach spinning and people would train six months before coming to spinning because they could not keep up with it. It's an intense class. I think that resistance training is awesome for everyone.
By the way I bought a big jug of whey protein for $13 at Wal Mart. Awesome price.

$13??! what brand is it? i think a 2 or 3L bottle of whey will cost around $50-60?

trouble is we as consumers have no way of telling the purity of the whey different companies provide; the more expensive brands claim their products are the purest but who knows?

 

[nubbey24]

Weight lifting is good for everyone. Increased muscle mass will increase their resting metabolic rate, burning off the calories faster. The bigger I get (muscle, not fat), the more I need to eat to stay at that size.

I don't think that WizardOz is arguing with you about this point. The simple fact is that on average it takes (and you can look in any exercise physiology text at this) 6 weeks of strength training for any gains in muscle hypertrophy to account for gains in muscle mass. Before that, any gains in strength are primarily neural in origin. You will also burn a lot more calories in a shorter amount of time through cardio vs. weight lifting and for a majority of the population simply losing weight is why they join a gym in the first place, and just based on calories burned, they are not going to get the results they want from lifting weights as quickly. THis I think is the point of Wizards remarks which I also agree with. With regards to protein powder, I have heard it is questionable about the amount of that protein that is actually usable by the body. It is also not " going to build muscle" weight lifting and continually overloading the muscle is going to build muscle. Can the protein help...it is questionable, but for the placebo effect alone it might be worth it. Just my opinion.

Side note about protein building muscle...I have personally spoken with the nutritionist of the Denver Bronco's and Colorado Rockies, and they said that their is little to no evidence to support the use of whey protein for performance enhancing purposes.

 

[osmodiar]

to answer to the OP, i've been bodybuilding for 4 years now and never touched supplements. If you got enough money to buy diversified food, that you get a lot of proteins from your meals and enough carbs, you shouldn't have to take supplements. You might want to check out www.t-nation.com for tips about weightlifting. It's my bible when it comes down to putting on muscles

 

[Law2Doc]

to answer to the OP, i've been bodybuilding for 4 years now and never touched supplements. If you got enough money to buy diversified food, that you get a lot of proteins from your meals and enough carbs, you shouldn't have to take supplements.

If you move serious amounts of iron daily and are trying to grow big, it is very difficult to ingest enough protein in a normal diet, even if you could afford it. As Prowler indicated, a gram of protein per lb daily is what the real body builders ingest, which, if you were say a 200 lb male would be an absurd amount of red meat (There is about 25g of protein in a normal sized steak, I believe). The old school lifters used to chugg several gallons of milk a day, but that's certainly not considered healthy today. Go with whey.

 

[gotgame83]

Honestly, it's simple if you're a bodybuilder - Eat big. Lift big. Get big. We could talk until we were blue in the face about 3-board bench presses, eccentric contractions, West Side BB training styles, amino acid supplements, glycemic indexes, etc, but if you eat a lot, lift often and with large weights, you'll gain muscle.

haha someone else either has heard of/uses West side and 3board presses. Very nice. I al.so love my average green bands on bench. Nothing like trying to lockout 330 with an extra 70lbs of tension on the top

 

[gotgame83]

edit- hit reply twice

 

[osmodiar]

If you move serious amounts of iron daily and are trying to grow big, it is very difficult to ingest enough protein in a normal diet, even if you could afford it. As Prowler indicated, a gram of protein per lb daily is what the real body builders ingest, which, if you were say a 200 lb male would be an absurd amount of red meat (There is about 25g of protein in a steak, I believe). Go with whey.

im 165:
2L of skimmed lactose free milk/day ~~ 90g
2 small flavored tuna cans ~~ 40g
half a pack of plain soybeans ~~ 36g

that covers it and thats only my snacks, I didn't count my meals. The only problem I've read from one of Charles Poliquin's articles, is that consuming always the same protein types could cause "allergies" which reduce amino-acid absorbtion.

 

[gotgame83]

By serious I don't mean being competitive but one who would hit the gym and lift weights regularly year in and year out.

For those of you who do, are you taking protein supplements? From what I've learned from nutrition classes, protein supplements are totally unnecessary and could in fact hurt the body if their ratio of amino acids used ain't right. However, if we were to take in 1 g of protein for each pound of body weight, it would be fairly difficult to obtain that amount of protein with whole food. What are you guys' solution to this?

I am not a competitive bodybuilder but my friends at NJMS did recruit me for flag football, but then again i am larger then most of those people which makes it so much fun lol

Being a med student does make it difficult sometimes to ingest the correct amount of protein and the previous posters covered a lot of information so there is no need for me to repeat any of that. What I personally do to try consume enough protein is I like to make my own protein powders online. This can be done at www.proteinfactory.com You can make your own blends. I like to do this and I try to have about 60grams of protein a day from those shakes. I am on a budget but buying chicken in bulk isnt very expensive. Chicken and beef are my two main whole sources of protein and Id say I eat one of those almost every night for dinner. My other main sources for protein are eggs, peanut butter, and tuna. All cheap.

I really put off lifting a lot my first semester at school but now I like to think i am managing my time better and hopefully I will be able to go more often now. I purchased an IPOD yesterday(first one ever) to listen to lectures while i workout.

 

[Law2Doc]

im 165:
2L of skimmed lactose free milk/day ~~ 90g
2 small flavored tuna cans ~~ 40g
half a pack of plain soybeans ~~ 36g

that covers it and thats only my snacks, I didn't count my meals.

That should totally work if you can stomach it day in and day out. But are you getting bigger/lifting bigger? The proof is in the pudding, and 165 isn't exactly a Ronnie Coleman. There is certainly fitness literature and books suggesting that all protein is not equal and that red meat and whey are perhaps better utilized by the body than other meats and especially soy, but some of the science in these publications' assertions is perhaps dubious. Whey is quick, easy, protein potent, and reportedly harmless, as far as supplements go. If it was good enough for little miss muffett, it's good enough for the typical weekend warrior.

 

[osmodiar]

That should totally work if you can stomach it day in and day out. But are you getting bigger/lifting bigger? The proof is in the pudding, and 165 isn't exactly a Ronnie Coleman. There is certainly fitness literature and books suggesting that all protein is not equal and that red meat and whey are perhaps better utilized by the body than other meats and especially soy, but some of the science in these publications' assertions is perhaps dubious. Whey is quick, easy, protein potent, and reportedly harmless, as far as supplements go. If it was good enough for little miss muffett, it's good enough for the typical weekend warrior.

considering i'm only 5'5, hell i wouldn't want to weigh much more than 165, thank god i'm no Ronnie Coleman =). While it is true that i haven't taken any weight for a good 6 months now, i still keep on lifting bigger which is all I ask for.

On another subject, take a look at that freak, it's insane what people are willing to do to become Mr/miss Olympia
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xt1ck_supersize-she

 

[Law2Doc]

i still keep on lifting bigger which is all I ask for.

Go with what works until it stops working. But plateaus are part of the game in lifting.

 

[osmodiar]

Go with what works until it stops working. But plateaus are part of the game in lifting.

and god knows there are plenty of those in that game.... in every aspect of it

 

[Wizard of Oz]

I honestly, don't think that cardio increases exercise retention. In fact it's probably quite the contrary. It is hard and it is boring. It is the same thing day in and day out.

I agree--cardio probably doesn't increase exercise retention. That's why I suggest using it to build around. If you want to lose weight, cardio is the path to weight loss. So if you aren't willing to follow my cardio prescription, then you're not ready to be fit and lean. It is amazing to me how much better I feel when I supplement cardio with a good diet than diet alone.

Yes now you'll tell me about how lean mass has a higher metabolic rate and so forth. This is true, but the average obese person needs cardiovascular fitness first.

Anyway weight loss is not the point of this thread. Someone going to the gym with a weight problem is not going to realistically want to look like a pro off the bat. But neither does the OP.

Side note about protein building muscle...I have personally spoken with the nutritionist of the Denver Bronco's and Colorado Rockies, and they said that their is little to no evidence to support the use of whey protein for performance enhancing purposes.

Thanks. I learned this too when I was a grad student in exercise physiiology.

to answer to the OP, i've been bodybuilding for 4 years now and never touched supplements. If you got enough money to buy diversified food, that you get a lot of proteins from your meals and enough carbs, you shouldn't have to take supplements.

Thanks!

Just a quick point. People are referencing professional bodybuilders here. The OP's first sentence includes "I don't mean competative [bodybuilders]."

 

[Playmakur42]

Theres some bad advice floating around here....

1. Creatine does not need to be loaded. The recent studies show the regular 5 gram serving is adequate to increase the creatine levels in the muscle cell. The excess goes down the toilet.....literally.

2. Resistance training is one of the best ways to promote weight loss due to the increase in metabolism it causes. The body needs calories to repair the muscle you broke down and build new muscle. The result is days of increased caloric use by your body. When you climb off of the treadmill, the metabolism does not stay increased for a considerable period.

3. It is very possible to get enough nutrition from a diet of normal food. Supplements are simply a matter of convenience. 6 vs 1/2 dozen.

4. The first 6 weeks of lifting strength gains are partially neural, but the tendons/ligaments also strengthen in response to the training. The major muscular hypertrophy beings after about 4 weeks of steady weight training.

5. If you're not squatting/deadlifting until you've reached failure, then you don't need supplements and you probably won't grow too much. (Try it for 6 weeks, and I promise your bench will go up too.)

6. If you've hit a plateau on bench, 3 board presses and pause close grip bench presses work wonders. If you've hit a plateau doing power cleans, doing power cleans with a weighted keg (hammer the edges down to a comfortable grip) will help tremendously.

7. Body composition/size is alot more than 10% genetics.... more like 85%. Without steroids, it extremely difficult to put on more than 30 pounds of muscle without juicing up.

8. To the guy who dropped 10 pounds but didn't lose strength after quitting whey protein. You've simply burned off excess fat by cutting the excess calories the whey protein shakes provided. Whey is not magic.

-Getting off of soapbox now-

 

[Law2Doc]

Just a quick point. People are referencing professional bodybuilders here. The OP's first sentence includes "I don't mean competative [bodybuilders]."

True, but if you want to be a serious bodybuilder (even noncompetitive) it certainly doesn't hurt to see what (legal things) have worked in the pro arena. Nobody in med school has the ability to commit the time necessary to become the next Mr. Universe. But that doesn't mean you can't benefit from what people who devote their life to this sport have learned. If you want to bulk up, you need to have adequate protein in your diet even if you aren't shooting for anything close to competitive status.

 

[Law2Doc]

Without steroids, it extremely difficult to put on more than 30 pounds of muscle without juicing up.

I totally agree with your post, but have certainly seen folks put on this kind of muscle without juice. Depends a lot on (1) the starting point, (2) the person's age, and (3) whether the person is willing to put on a ton of weight (both fat and muscle, and then pare it down to just muscle).

 

[Playmakur42]

I knew someone would call me on the weakness in my post. My college roomate went from 205 as a 20 year old freshman to 275 by senior year. No fat on him either. He plays D-Line in the CFL now. Just good genetics and LOTS or protein shakes/creatine. But, his case is pretty unusual.

 

[D30417995]

considering i'm only 5'5, hell i wouldn't want to weigh much more than 165, thank god i'm no Ronnie Coleman =). While it is true that i haven't taken any weight for a good 6 months now, i still keep on lifting bigger which is all I ask for.

On another subject, take a look at that freak, it's insane what people are willing to do to become Mr/miss Olympia
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xt1ck_supersize-she

holy crap!! listen to her voice in the video

 

[D30417995]

I've tried listening to lecture recordings while lifting weights but have given up very quickly because it doesn't really work; both endeavours require absolute concentration: when you're lifting, you have to focus entirely on the contracting muscles. However, I find it okay to run on the treadmill and listen to recordings at the same time.

 

[Wizard of Oz]

I knew someone would call me on the weakness in my post. My college roomate went from 205 as a 20 year old freshman to 275 by senior year. No fat on him either. He plays D-Line in the CFL now. Just good genetics and LOTS or protein shakes/creatine. But, his case is pretty unusual.

L2D is very good about finding weaknesses here. Much respek.

I also concur with your post. If I had my way, I'd definitely advocate a total body workout complete with cardio plus resistance. I just wish I knew a way to get a beginner to commit to the full program for the long term out of the gate after spending a lifetime behaving sedentarily. My suggestion to start with the cardio is a solution that I've seen work in slowing the rapid defection from the gym every year come February.

 

[gotgame83]

I've tried listening to lecture recordings while lifting weights but have given up very quickly because it doesn't really work; both endeavours require absolute concentration: when you're lifting, you have to focus entirely on the contracting muscles. However, I find it okay to run on the treadmill and listen to recordings at the same time.

crap lol now i have to find another way to justify a 160dollar purchase...

 

[45408]

I don't think that WizardOz is arguing with you about this point. The simple fact is that on average it takes (and you can look in any exercise physiology text at this) 6 weeks of strength training for any gains in muscle hypertrophy to account for gains in muscle mass. Before that, any gains in strength are primarily neural in origin. You will also burn a lot more calories in a shorter amount of time through cardio vs. weight lifting and for a majority of the population simply losing weight is why they join a gym in the first place, and just based on calories burned, they are not going to get the results they want from lifting weights as quickly. THis I think is the point of Wizards remarks which I also agree with. With regards to protein powder, I have heard it is questionable about the amount of that protein that is actually usable by the body. It is also not " going to build muscle" weight lifting and continually overloading the muscle is going to build muscle. Can the protein help...it is questionable, but for the placebo effect alone it might be worth it. Just my opinion.

You need the calories to build the muscle. Whey is a cheap way to get them. I'd argue that it takes a lot less than 6 weeks to START to put on serious mass, and I've done it myself. Also, if overweight people want to start losing weight, IT MUST START IN THE KITCHEN. You can start jogging a few times a week, but if they go home and eat a bigger meal because they're now hungry, those gains from jogging are GONE.

5. If you're not squatting/deadlifting until you've reached failure, then you don't need supplements and you probably won't grow too much. (Try it for 6 weeks, and I promise your bench will go up too.)

Ah, now this guy knows what he's talking about. My bench blows though - I've squatted 405 (to parallel), deadlifted 425, and I've never benched over 200. I'm going to shoot the next person who says, "Oh, I play soccer. My legs are strong enough already."

 

[45408]

7. Body composition/size is alot more than 10% genetics.... more like 85%. Without steroids, it extremely difficult to put on more than 30 pounds of muscle without juicing up.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. I was with you on #5! I was 115 pounds when I graduated high school, and I've gotten up to 164 in less than two years. I've gained 30 pounds in less than four months before, and not much of that was fat (and I have pictures to prove it). I was 134 in July, and 162 in December. (My weight is very directly proportional to the effort I put into staying fit ) 85% genetics is absolutely ridiculous, and you couldn't get anyone (whose opinion in this field I respected) to agree with you.

Eat big, lift big, GET BIG. It happens all the time. Someone who can't gain more than 30-40 pounds just isn't trying hard enough.

 

[myr11]

I am also am a personal trainer and I couldn't agree with what you said more. Clients and people in general worry toooooo much about the specifics when they can't even get into the gym! I always tell people I will give you a set plan once you go to the gym 2-3 times a week for at least a couple of weeks. I know if I give them a plan I am wasting my time because they won't follow it...I tell people just go to the gym! Sit in the corner and stare I dont care just be inside the gym. This way they find the time in the first place to do it since fitness goals don't happen over nite it takes a long time. Its kind of like psychotherapy, you don't delve into every problem right away, you ease into it. This is import not only for physical aspects but mostly for mental aspects. As far as supplements go I also feel that they are just that, supplements. Of course something artificial or somehwhat artificial is not the best option. But it is 100% better than nothing(I am reffering to whey protein). As far as creatine and the other supplements out there, none of us can say all that much because we don't know much about it physiologically. Coming from a top nephrologist I know of, he stated that it is fairly benign. Obviously what he meant was in small doses. Don't take too much of it...Sure it might work...If you want to spend the money and try, go for it, but just think about if it has anything to do with your goals. Personally I only take it when I am training for something serious. In certain instances the known consequences of taking a little bit don't outweigh the possible benefit of increased available energy to the muscles. I think of supplements like cold remedies, or pain relievers. You never need to take any of the over the counter stuff, but usually you do because it might work and the POSSIBLE consequences aren't too bad for some tylenol or what ever you take. But I ain't takin 10 200 mg pills of ibuprofen every day! Just like you shouldn't take 100 grams of creatine every day...To asnwer the OP though, it is not a matter of if it is necessary or not...Are you having trouble getting enough protein? Would taking a simple protein shake be convienient? Then take it! However, I stick to the most basic stuff because it is cheaper and it is all you "need". I take a simple unflavored 100% whey protein. It is made by optimum nutrition in GNC. I mix it with 20 oz of water and 3 scoops of gatorade mix. The people who work at GNC are always surprised that I buy an unflavored, 100% whey. More people should realize this is all you probably even want.

 

[Playmakur42]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. I've gained 30 pounds in less than four months before. 85% genetics is absolutely ridiculous, and you couldn't get anyone (whose opinion in this field I respected) to agree with you.

Someone who can't gain more than 30-40 pounds just isn't trying hard enough.

I've squatted 405 (to parallel), deadlifted 425, and I've never benched over 200.

You disagree with my post about genetics so vehemently, yet in your previous post, you admit that your squat is very good for your weight but your bench press is rather average. You don't think genetics plays a part in your bench press stength limitations (or your strong lower body for that matter)? These same genetics play a huge part in your ability to gain 50 pounds of pure muscle after lifting for 3 weeks, while others on this board don't have that luxury.

Also, it's a known fact that male body weight and strength peaks at about 35 years old. So, to mention a growth spurt you had in early college is not realistic. I gained 40 pounds between 5th and 6th grade...does that disprove my argument too?

Despite being the strongest guy on my football team (overall) I could not get my in season body weight over 225 pounds (with out being flabby, obviously). Genetics.

Someone said something about true muscle gains starting WAY before 6 weeks. Let me look around to find an article supporting my position that the first few weeks are neural/ligament/tendon gains and I'll get back to you (since no one believes this lowly exercise physiology grad.)

 

[Playmakur42]

Journal of Undergraduate Research
Volume 5, Issue 2 - November 2003

Expiratory Muscle Training in Two Healthy Adults
Stephanie White

Muscles that receive an overload on a regular basis will respond with increases in muscle strength and hypertrophy. The increase in muscle strength is partly due to a larger muscle size and partly due to reactions of the central nervous system. In progressive resistance exercises, the central nervous system recruits more motor units in the muscle being conditioned, motor neuron firing rates are altered, the synchronization of motor units during a specific movement pattern is enhanced, and neural inhibition is lessened. Neural adaptations occur at the onset of training, but level off quickly. However, hypertrophy is slow to commence, occurs at a slower rate than neural adaptations, and levels off much later. It is important to note that muscle overloads are followed by adaptation, making it necessary to periodically increase the load.

 

[nubbey24]

You need the calories to build the muscle. Whey is a cheap way to get them. I'd argue that it takes a lot less than 6 weeks to START to put on serious mass, and I've done it myself. Also, if overweight people want to start losing weight, IT MUST START IN THE KITCHEN. You can start jogging a few times a week, but if they go home and eat a bigger meal because they're now hungry, those gains from jogging are GONE.


Ah, now this guy knows what he's talking about. My bench blows though - I've squatted 405 (to parallel), deadlifted 425, and I've never benched over 200. I'm going to shoot the next person who says, "Oh, I play soccer. My legs are strong enough already."

You may be the exception with putting on mass before six weeks, but I am quoting what literature says with regards to muscle hypertrophy...not strength gains...two completely separate things, and on average it takes around 6 weeks for muscle hypertrophy to account for any gains in muscle strength. Look in any undergraduate exercise physiology text and it will tell you the same. I agree with you with regards to the kitchen and diet. We are both arguing the same point I think. Bottom line is, losing weight (for the most part because there is a suggested genetic component to it) is a matter of calories spent vs. calories taken in. I am just arguing that starting out for someone who has been relatively sendentary, the best way (my opinion) for them to get the most calories burned per time in the gym is to do cardio. And then once they have formed a good habbit then they can start working in weights. I think you obviously have a very strong background in training and have had a lot of success in your fitness endevours and I respect your opinion. I am speaking more from the point of view of bioenergetics, and weight management for the average individual, not someone who is looking to get down to 6-8% body fat and gain 20lbs of muscle.

 

[nubbey24]

Journal of Undergraduate Research
Volume 5, Issue 2 - November 2003

Expiratory Muscle Training in Two Healthy Adults
Stephanie White

Muscles that receive an overload on a regular basis will respond with increases in muscle strength and hypertrophy. The increase in muscle strength is partly due to a larger muscle size and partly due to reactions of the central nervous system. In progressive resistance exercises, the central nervous system recruits more motor units in the muscle being conditioned, motor neuron firing rates are altered, the synchronization of motor units during a specific movement pattern is enhanced, and neural inhibition is lessened. Neural adaptations occur at the onset of training, but level off quickly. However, hypertrophy is slow to commence, occurs at a slower rate than neural adaptations, and levels off much later. It is important to note that muscle overloads are followed by adaptation, making it necessary to periodically increase the load.

Thank you playmakur...this is quoted in every single undergraduate exercise physiology text printed recently.

 

[Law2Doc]

I am just arguing that starting out for someone who has been relatively sendentary, the best way (my opinion) for them to get the most calories burned per time in the gym is to do cardio. And then once they have formed a good habbit then they can start working in weights.

Many training gurus advocate a tripod approach -- clean up the diet, cardio AND weights, all at once (not simultaneously, and not circuit training, but over the same months). It is asserted that you get superior weight loss (and ideally some muscle building or at least preservation) if you do all three together rather than cardio first, and then add weights. This is true whether you are just starting out or an old hand. Plus if you just do cardio, you reportedly tend to lose more muscle along with the fat than if you are doing some lifting over the same time period. Plus you can make better use of "off" days if you alternate forms of exercise -- you keep the body guessing. I'm just saying...