Anybody do USUHS MD/PhD?

[qqq]

Thoughts anyone?

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[Neuronix]

I've got lots of thoughts on this, but I haven't actually done it, so I'll refrain unless you want my input as a MD/PhD student. Feel free to post in the MD/PhD forum or PM me.

 

[GMO_52]

Thoughts anyone?

When I was there they didn't have this program but a few people did it on a case by case basis. I don't think its a great idea. The issue is that military medicine is clinically driven and there are very few research faculty jobs. If you want to be the clinician/researcher/teacher type of physician, you'll probably find that hard to do while in the military (especially as a junior staff). Also, USU provides a quality clinical education but it isn't a world-class research institution and, as the spouse of a PhD student, I've seen first hand the impact that institution/PI reputation has on postdoctoral options and job opportunities. While we're on the subject of postdocs, its unlikely you'd even get to do one. So...if you want to be a clinical physician, why get the PhD and if you want to be a research-oriented physician, you will probably find your opportunities in the military unsatisfying. Helo doc, you might know better than me, but the guy from our class with a USU PhD isn't doing anything with it, right?

 

[Croooz]

When I was there they didn't have this program but a few people did it on a case by case basis. I don't think its a great idea. The issue is that military medicine is clinically driven and there are very few research faculty jobs. If you want to be the clinician/researcher/teacher type of physician, you'll probably find that hard to do while in the military (especially as a junior staff). Also, USU provides a quality clinical education but it isn't a world-class research institution and, as the spouse of a PhD student, I've seen first hand the impact that institution/PI reputation has on postdoctoral options and job opportunities. While we're on the subject of postdocs, its unlikely you'd even get to do one. So...if you want to be a clinical physician, why get the PhD and if you want to be a research-oriented physician, you will probably find your opportunities in the military unsatisfying. Helo doc, you might know better than me, but the guy from our class with a USU PhD isn't doing anything with it, right?

I gotta agree and disagree...
There are research positions at the various military research centers, problem is you are limited to what research you would do. Same problem with choosing your specialty...it's up to the needs of the Navy. If by some miracle you are doing science which isn't supporting the operational units you will ALWAYS have to write proposals and gear your research with that in mind. Tranplant research will have to be geared toward "how does this help the warfighters?" You have to have an answer and your research better produce publications in the "respected" journals. If an administrator is able to read between the lines that you are merely realigning your proposals to meet this requirements funding will dry up...quickly.

Military research is no picnic and there is ALOT of truth to the respectability of USUHS. The school has a limited scope because of its very nature. The good thing is its location...across the street from NIH. Now before the USUHS student's past and present attack me...I respect what USUHS does. There is no doubt it is limited in the type of science you can get into because the military restricts the type of science you can get into.

As with the HPSP you have to look very hard at how much control you are willing to give up. I can tell you this...consider it "insider trading..." There are many who are "hinting" to active duty PhD's to get degrees in management, MBA's and such. This will allow them to stay in once the hatchet comes down...and it's coming. It is no secret the military is realigning the services so each service isn't doing the same science.

If interested in science...in the military...I would recommend just going in as a physician. Take a few graduate level science classes which you didn't take as a med student and during the years and summers work in science labs...Specifically try to get to the research center in Silver Spring, MD during these science rotations. Come in eager to learn and not show off...meet the O4's and above...ask questions...work...ask more questions...make mistakes...ask more questions...once you go back to school correspond with the people you met (techs up to Director's)......and as long as you are genuine you will find an "in"....

Take what is useful, discard the rest...

 

[qqq]

I can see how pursuing a research career in the military would just be more hassle than it's worth. . . autonomy, funds, alignment with the mission, etc. Maybe I'm biased, but I would think it might be swimming against the current the whole way. I'm definitely not thinking of doing this. On another note,

I would not want to go through a Ph.D program only to find that no one respects my degree, and thus my job opportunities outside of the military would be limited. So would a Ph.D obtained at USUHS really be viewed that poorly as opposed to one earned at say a state school? Obviously reputation is not what one goes into it for, but nonetheless reputation can determine breadth of opportunity, and I'm speaking about being in the civilian world (research/academia). Having gone to a service academy, I constantly get the impression that people see my education as simply not measuring up to a good civilian school. It's funny cause the leadership would always tell us we were the "best and the brightest" but I don't think any one really believes that except for the leadership.

Does anyone get this attitude from having gone to USUHS?

 

[qqq]

So I guess reputation is a big issue. Would the caliber of the reputation of a PhD at USUHS be the same as a bunch of other "poor" schools (research wise, of course), or is it in a class all by itself (PhD anywhere but USUHS if you value future opportunities!). I am under the impression that if you want to be a successful doc you can get an MD at any school and simply work hard and perform well (not talking about being the next Harvard dean). Not the same going the md/PhD route? There are always those glass ceilings that no one likes to talk about, and are sometimes closely tied to whether or not a name brand institution shows up on your resume. Just curious. Thanks.

 

[Neuronix]

So I guess reputation is a big issue. Would the caliber of the reputation of a PhD at USUHS be the same as a bunch of other "poor" schools (research wise, of course), or is it in a class all by itself (PhD anywhere but USUHS if you value future opportunities!). I am under the impression that if you want to be a successful doc you can get an MD at any school and simply work hard and perform well (not talking about being the next Harvard dean). Not the same going the md/PhD route? There are always those glass ceilings that no one likes to talk about, and are sometimes closely tied to whether or not a name brand institution shows up on your resume. Just curious. Thanks.

There's a few issues at hand in this thread and I'm going to address them separately.

First, about MD/PhD training,
I always highly recommend that applicants apply to the so called Medical Scientist Training Program (MSTP) schools. These programs are partially funded by the federal government, and as such the NIGMS regulates them to a certain degree (http://www.nigms.nih.gov/funding/mstp.html). This oversight helps push the administration to provide adequate time of training, support, and above all, allows you to drop out of any MSTP at any time. You can go back to MD studies at any time without any hard feelings and without having to pay back anything for the time you were in the program. In non-MSTP institutions, like USUHS, there's no regulation or oversight of the programs by a student-friendly body, and as such, I would not recommend it. Being a MD/PhD can require strong advocates to move you over obstacles and get your training done well and in a reasonable amount of time. In any case, in the military I don't know whether you can go back to being a USUHS MD with no hard feelings, but you still have that USUHS commitment. As for no payback for leaving the program? This is something the military would never offer anyone who signs up. Again, I leave it to the forum to think about why that might be. so I would still highly recommend those interested in MD/PhD stay out of the military.

After the program,
In academia and to some degree in industry, the reputation of the places where and people with whom you have trained are very important. For the most part, you choose from a ton of options around the world about who and where you'd like to train. This becomes especially important when you do a post-doc or fellowship. Starting your career off with the right mentors at the best institutions is key to doing well. This isn't a matter of simple name snobbery, but also resources, contacts, and guidance. The top training institutions will allow you to train with the best in your field and have access to all the top-notch equipment. In the military, your options for training are much much more limited, and if you do ever leave for academia that could hurt you because you don't have the contacts or guidance. As for resources, I don't know how well the military funds its researchers. Though a key resource can be collaborators. These other researchers may provide you with access to equipment, techniques, and knowledge in areas you may not even know about yet. It's always easier to found collaborations with those at your home instituation, which also means bigger can mean better.

In your career,
In the civilian world, freedom is highly prized by academics. As such, publishing your research and fighting for funding for your research become the most important things on your application for academic jobs. In the military, funding is not as much of an issue as you give it up for being told what to research or having much mroe limited options. As has been said earlier, stalling to publish civilian publications is NOT a military priority. This will probably make it nearly impossible to move to the civilian world. It is possible to move to industry at this point, as the situation is similiar--trading battling for funding and publications for freedom in your research.

I hope this answers all the questions appropriately. To more directly answer the ops questions and summarize, sure a clinician can train anywhere and still become a good clinician. It's important for a researcher to train at the best places they can both during the program and afterwards, not just for name recognition, but for the resources, contacts, and support that big name institutions can provide.

I'll be happy to expand on anything further if anyone would like and I wonder if Andrew Doan would have anything to contribute on this topic.

 

[qqq]

Thanks for the great response !