Anyone else thankful your interests lie in medicine?

[ineed2stpsmurfn]

Found this today in a law school forum. Was just browsing topic, and they got successively worse until i stumbled upon this little gem. No one even went to disagree, they actually started agreeing and adding their bits of knowledge and that the entering hopefuls wouldn't believe this advice regardless:

Unless you're a rockstar with a 3.9 college GPA (from a respectable school) and a 175 or above LSAT score, law school is a huge mistake. The only way getting a law degree is worth it in this economic climate is if the school pays YOU for the privilege of attending all 3 years, pays your room and board, your food, your entertainment needs, your bar prep class (nothing beats Barbri), your Bar Exam fees, your MPRE fees, your moral application fees, all fees associated with extra-curriculars like law review, journals, legal externships, clerkships, etc. The only way a respectable law school will pay you to attend is if you are a rockstar and they can brag about you in their school stats. Being able to put esquire after your name and having people call you "counselor" is hardly worth being crushed under the weight of $150k of debt. The bank doesn't care that there's more lawyers out there than jobs; like a good loan shark, it will threaten to break your legs if you don't come up with the cash by the due date. And the bank's threats are hardly empty. Don't figure that just because you excel in law school and pass the bar exam on the first try that you are guaranteed anything; you are guaranteed nothing. With debt that mounts by the day, the beloved law school that you are now fighting so hard to be accepted into will have you by the balls and you will be contemplating crimes you learned the legal repercussions of in first year criminal law. Even as I write this I know it will do little to deter the majority of determined students who think a juris doctor is the answer right now. It probably wouldn't have deterred me back then either. But then again, I never read such an unglowing review. Everyone deserves to be informed; this is your informing.

Signed,

Disillusioned in Cali
http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/index.php?topic=4026528.0





Are you ever just thankful medicine doesn't have this kind of crap? granted, we have our own set of problems but law seems to have it really, really bad. For the record, my brother is a lawyer and he and his GF echo this guys sentiments exactly.

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[flatearth22]

There are a lot of people who are interested in medicine because of these advantages, not independent of them. This is especially accentuated during economic downturns (like right now) when the applicant numbers tend to soar far above their bull market counterparts.

 

[Wubbles]

A DVM is quickly going down the same road as JD. MD/DO's are not invincible.

 

[searun]

Agreed, a law degree is a really bad investment now unless you are a student at a top law school like Harvard, Yale, or Stanford. A law student at a second or third tier law school who takes on a large amount of student loan debt has probably screwed him or herself financially for life.

 

[ineed2stpsmurfn]

There are a lot of people who are interested in medicine because of these advantages, not independent of them. This is especially accentuated during economic downturns (like right now) when the applicant numbers tend to soar far above their bull market counterparts.

True, true. I wonder what the lag time between an economic downturn and the peak of applications to grad schools or even medical schools would be.

A DVM is quickly going down the same road as JD. MD/DO's are not invincible.

I NEVER understood what was the huge draw for a DVM. You have to do more crapology to get in, even go to the Carib in some cases, and when you get out you have a mountain of debt that they pay you jack crap with which to pay it off all for the sake of treating that cute little SICK COW

Agreed, a law degree is a really bad investment now unless you are a student at a top law school like Harvard, Yale, or Stanford. A law student at a second or third tier law school who takes on a large amount of student loan debt has probably screwed him or herself financially for life.

Yea, my bro's gf has 150K of debt from a tier 3-4 law school and works in nyc for about 90 grand. Guess how much after taxes and rent that leaves her? And to top it off, who would want to write the technical terminology for a manual at an institution all day long? I'd want to jump off a cliff.

 

[upright]

 

[duress]

Yea, my bro's gf has 150K of debt from a tier 3-4 law school and works in nyc for about 90 grand. Guess how much after taxes and rent that leaves her? And to top it off, who would want to write the technical terminology for a manual at an institution all day long? I'd want to jump off a cliff.

Just to be clear, we're equating 'financially screwed for life' with $90k/year?

 

[gettheleadout]

Just to be clear, we're equating 'financially screwed for life' with $90k/year?

In NYC with $150k debt, who knows.

 

[Cinclus]

I have several friends in law school who probably shouldn't be there. Their lives are hell right now.

 

[Stumpyman]

True, true. I wonder what the lag time between an economic downturn and the peak of applications to grad schools or even medical schools would be.




I NEVER understood what was the huge draw for a DVM. You have to do more crapology to get in, even go to the Carib in some cases, and when you get out you have a mountain of debt that they pay you jack crap with which to pay it off all for the sake of treating that cute little SICK COW




Yea, my bro's gf has 150K of debt from a tier 3-4 law school and works in nyc for about 90 grand. Guess how much after taxes and rent that leaves her? And to top it off, who would want to write the technical terminology for a manual at an institution all day long? I'd want to jump off a cliff.

tier 4, and she has a starting job at 90K a year? I'd be seriously happy if I were her. My close friend who graduated from Northwestern Law was handing out fliers outside of his uncle's shop last time I saw him.

 

[ineed2stpsmurfn]

Just to be clear, we're equating 'financially screwed for life' with $90k/year?

for life? not exactly. That's not my point- what I'm saying is she's between a rock and a hard place. You can't leave manhattan and try to find a job paying that, they aren't really there:

tier 4, and she has a starting job at 90K a year? I'd be seriously happy if I were her. My close friend who graduated from Northwestern Law was handing out fliers outside of his uncle's shop last time I saw him.

She was lucky as heck to get the one she has as you state stumpyman (ignoring the fact it's blow-my-brains-out boring) but take a look at this from the new york daily news:


A New Yorker would have to make $123,322 a year to have the same standard of living as someone making $50,000 in Houston.
In Manhattan, a $60,000 salary is equivalent to someone making $26,092 in Atlanta.
You knew it was expensive to live in Manhattan, but Queens? The report tagged Queens the fifth most expensive urban area in the country.
The average monthly rent in New York is $2,801, 53% higher than San Francisco, the second most expensive city in the country.
"Income levels that would enable a very comfortable lifestyle in other locales barely suffice to provide the basics in New York City," the report concludes.

New Yorkers paid about $34 a month for phone service in 2006. In San Francisco, similar service cost $17 a month.
Home heating costs have jumped 125% in the past five years and are up 243% since 1998.
Full-time day care costs can run up to $25,000 a year for one child, depending on the neighborhood, or about as much as some college tuitions.
Meanwhile, wages in the city have remained mostly flat in all boroughs but Manhattan - even during the boom years from 2003 to 2007.


then add 150,000 dollars of student loan debt on top of that. get the picture?

 

[flatearth22]

What sucks about law school is that not only does it matter where you go to law school but it also matters how well you perform. Even if you attend a t14 school if you only get median or below median you would be lucky to get a job (and it would probably pay less than 6 figures with little room for advancement). Compare that to medicine where even if you graduate from the bottom of your class with poor board scores at a low-tier school you can still do FM, IM, Peds, or Psych and you're still pretty much guaranteed to make at least $160k after residency.

Also, unlike med school, the most important year in law school is the first year followed by the second followed by the third and final year (in med school it's MS3 > MS2 > MS1 > MS4) because the quality of your internship after your 1L year is extremely pivotal in shaping your CV, networking, getting references, etc. for getting future employment. And getting that internship is based on the quality of school and your 1L grades. So if you're a slow starter and screw up in 1L then you're basically screwed for all of law school.

 

[Osteoth]

there are a lot of people who are interested in medicine because of these advantages, not independent of them. This is especially accentuated during economic downturns (like right now) when the applicant numbers tend to soar far above their bull market counterparts.

+1.

 

[ineed2stpsmurfn]

What sucks about law school is that not only does it matter where you go to law school but it also matters how well you perform. Even if you attend a t14 school if you only get median or below median you would be lucky to get a job (and it would probably pay less than 6 figures with little room for advancement). Compare that to medicine where even if you graduate from the bottom of your class with poor board scores at a low-tier school you can still do FM, IM, Peds, or Psych and you're still pretty much guaranteed to make at least $160k after residency.

Also, unlike med school, the most important year in law school is the first year followed by the second followed by the third and final year (in med school it's MS3 > MS2 > MS1 > MS4) because the quality of your internship after your 1L year is extremely pivotal in shaping your CV, networking, getting references, etc. for getting future employment. And getting that internship is based on the quality of school and your 1L grades. So if you're a slow starter and screw up in 1L then you're basically screwed for all of law school.

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

 

[Chrome19]

It's going to happen to medicine. I don't know when, but it will. After then, examinees for the actuarial sciences will increase.

 

[Trilby]

It's already happened for actuaries. My friend in the field says you have to pass an additional 1 or 2 exams just to get an entry level job.

 

[Chrome19]

We are all screwed then

 

[MT Headed]

It's going to happen to medicine. I don't know when, but it will. After then, examinees for the actuarial sciences will increase.

Not to worry. Most of the physicians in the advanced forums don't think the bottom will fall out of the medical system until the end of the decade. The year 2020 will be ugly for board certified doctors, but not before then.

 

[gettheleadout]

Not to worry. Most of the physicians in the advanced forums don't think the bottom will fall out of the medical system until the end of the decade. The year 2020 will be ugly for board certified doctors, but not before then.

So when you say "the bottom will fall out of the medical system," you mean...

 

[duress]

for life? not exactly. That's not my point- what I'm saying is she's between a rock and a hard place. You can't leave manhattan and try to find a job paying that, they aren't really there:




then add 150,000 dollars of student loan debt on top of that. get the picture?

Kind of, but she's not even close to the level indicated by the OP and the person you replied to. You can get plenty of cheaper places within commuting distance (especially if the faraway Queens is a consideration) so unless she's living in an UES penthouse apartment I'm still not sure where all of that salary is going to that she won't rapidly pay off her loans and enjoy a comfortable life.

And I mean, physicians do a lot of repetitive, soul crushing stuff too especially in certain specialties.

 

[MT Headed]

So when you say "the bottom will fall out of the medical system," you mean...

Yeah, I could have been more specific there. Salaries and job opportunities. I didn't mean to imply health care itself would become a scarce resource or anything. My bad.

 

[TACMON]

don't lose sight of the remarkable skills a physician has. if the world were to collapse, people would still need a physician's skills (that alone should make anyone feel great to be a doctor)

 

[gettheleadout]

Yeah, I could have been more specific there. Salaries and job opportunities. I didn't mean to imply health care itself would become a scarce resource or anything. My bad.

Salaries from decreased insurance reimbursement and jobs from older docs delaying retirement then? Anything else? I assume actual encroachment from DNP's/CRNA's/etc is minimal, and I don't see the number of residency positions increasing so I assume no inflation of new US MD grads per year.

 

[ljpm8224]

Yea, my bro's gf has 150K of debt from a tier 3-4 law school and works in nyc for about 90 grand. Guess how much after taxes and rent that leaves her?

hmm, based on my experience of living in Manhattan for 7 years... that would put her at -160k without factoring in loan payments to meet basic cost of living to have an enjoyable life in nyc

wonder if all these disillusioned JDs are gonna become pre-med nontrads as their backup plans?

 

[dr zaius]

hmm, based on my experience of living in Manhattan for 7 years... that would put her at -160k without factoring in loan payments to meet basic cost of living to have an enjoyable life in nyc

wonder if all these disillusioned JDs are gonna become pre-med nontrads as their backup plans?

My cousin, JD '10, recently asked advice regarding the MCAT and the application process.

 

[dr zaius]

If you read law school forums such a TLS (the law-analogous of SDN), you will find that the majority of [but, not all] future JD's are...simply stated: malignant *****s.

Ergo, while they might become premed nontrads, they likely won't be successful premed nontrads.

Nevertheless, it is humorous to search their forums and read their thoughts on premeds, med school and physicians.

From an outsider's perspective SDN premeds look similar. Other message boards have made fun of absurd SDN threads in the past. Those kids might just make it.

 

[ljpm8224]

If you read law school forums such a TLS (the law-analogous of SDN), you will find that the majority of [but, not all] future JD's are...simply stated: malignant *****s.

yeah, but i come off as a malignant ***** on the internet but can pass as perfectly intelligent & respectable irl

 

[sector9]

If you read law school forums such a TLS (the law-analogous of SDN), you will find that the majority of [but, not all] future JD's are...simply stated: malignant *****s.

Ergo, while they might become premed nontrads, they likely won't be successful premed nontrads.

Nevertheless, it is humorous to search their forums and read their thoughts on premeds, med school and physicians.

Hmm I read through a few threads over there and they seemed to be pretty level-headed about med school

 

[sector9]

They aren't malignant *****s necessarily about med school... in case, I accidentally insinuated that. For highlights of those qualities one has to be more of a regular and feel the environment longitudinally.

I did mean that their medical related ideals WERE [often times] humorous/entertaining.

Ah I see

 

[ineed2stpsmurfn]

hmm, based on my experience of living in Manhattan for 7 years... that would put her at -160k without factoring in loan payments to meet basic cost of living to have an enjoyable life in nyc

exactly. lol. 90 grand is good. 90 grand in manhattan is bad.

My cousin, JD '10, recently asked advice regarding the MCAT and the application process.

lol wow.

If you read law school forums such a TLS (the law-analogous of SDN), you will find that the majority of [but, not all] future JD's are...simply stated: malignant *****s.

Ergo, while they might become premed nontrads, they likely won't be successful premed nontrads.

Nevertheless, it is humorous to search their forums and read their thoughts on premeds, med school and physicians.

^that. lol hence why i was on the site in the first place. was interesting to see how they think of their own future practice. Just made me highly thankful I have to put up with more simple things that I can control, like getting enough EC's or research or volunteering... versus sending out 400 resume's and hearing nothing AT ALL.

 

[Coffee Machine]

A DVM is quickly going down the same road as JD. MD/DO's are not invincible.

Can you expand on that?

 

[SunsFun]

Surprised nobody has mentioned dentistry yet.

 

[EBTrailRunner]

I wonder what L2D's take is on all this...

 

[ineed2stpsmurfn]

Surprised nobody has mentioned dentistry yet.

I think it's halfway there.. they are getting surprisingly low salaries starting out from what you'd think considering the debt incurred. And the gpa/dat/debt to get in some places its pretty ridiculous... just go look at tufts d-school.