Anyone here a GS resident at PCOM?

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Hey guys--

I'm considering doing my residency (GS) at PCOM. I will be there for a sub-I in GS, but in the meantime I was hoping to hear some comments/feedback from your perspective on the program. (Are you getting enough OR time, esp. in the first 2 years; are the cases good; etc). Thank you very much!

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I still say "Free JPH". He was so GD opiniated all the time and it would get him in trouble, but he still had some pretty good things to say. I used to enjoy sparring with him on occasion, like when he miraculously discovered the DO way way back when.
 
Hey guys--

I'm considering doing my residency (GS) at PCOM. I will be there for a sub-I in GS, but in the meantime I was hoping to hear some comments/feedback from your perspective on the program. (Are you getting enough OR time, esp. in the first 2 years; are the cases good; etc). Thank you very much!


About 200 operations annually per resident. Rotations at the following: Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, Cooper Hospital, Geisinger Hospital, Deborah Heart and Lung Center, Crozer Health System, Frankford Health System, Roxborough Memorial Hospital, Hospital of University of Pennsylvania and Nazareth Hospital. Laparoscopic and endoscopic simulators surgical training.


Hope that helps.
 
About 200 operations annually per resident. Rotations at the following: Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, Cooper Hospital, Geisinger Hospital, Deborah Heart and Lung Center, Crozer Health System, Frankford Health System, Roxborough Memorial Hospital, Hospital of University of Pennsylvania and Nazareth Hospital. Laparoscopic and endoscopic simulators surgical training.

:eek: That's stretching the residents a little thin, huh?

How many categoricals per year? How many prelims? Which on that laundry list of hospitals is the real "PCOM hospital" (home base)?
 
:eek: That's stretching the residents a little thin, huh?

It may seem so at first sight. The thing is that 5 of those hospitals are within 20 minutes of PCOM. 1 is 45 minutes away and only 2 are truly "away" being ~2 hours from PCOM.



How many categoricals per year?

Abt 30 and increasing this year.

How many prelims?

Not sure.

Which on that laundry list of hospitals is the real "PCOM hospital" (home base)?


PCOM had a base hospital some years back and it was closed together with other philly hospitals. With the type of current hospital affiliations, there has not been a need to scout one to put PCOM's name on it. So basically, for all practical purposes, two of those hospitals are the "base" hospital for PCOM GS program - where residents get all of the cases they need except for Pediatrics and Transplant (namely Frankford and Cooper).



It may seem at quick glance that residents are sort of outsourced to random hospitals but it's not like that.

I hope the following quote from defunct JP clarifies it a bit:

we have 2 main hospital systems (5 campuses total) where we spend most of our time PGY1 through PGY5. We spend more than enough time there to develop a strong relationship with attendings...afterall, they float between the campuses within the same system as well. So lets call these our "home" hospitals.

PGY 1 is all home
PGY 2 you spend 6 months "away" (only 4 months outside Philly)
PGY 3 you spend 4 months "away" (only 2 months outside Philly)
PGY 4 is all home
PGY 5 is all home

So in 5 years you are "away" for 10 months...at our non-dominant hospitals, with only 6 months total being outside Philly or truly "away".

So you can see the great majority of your time is spent within the 2 major hospital systems that we staff. Our residents hardly live out of suitcases and you know your schedule a year in advance.
 
Seems kinda strange - 10 months (i.e. almost a whole year) of your residency spent far away from your home city?

That seems like a lot, no?
 
Seems kinda strange - 10 months (i.e. almost a whole year) of your residency spent far away from your home city?

That seems like a lot, no?


From our home city it's only 6 months out of 5 years. It would be a lot if these would be places you did not want to go to and had to go to anyway. But we are talking places almost anyone would do anything to go train at.

I like comparing it to MS4 electives, if you want to match in something competitive it behooves you to do as many electives, sub-Is and what not at the places you would want to match - many times these are at places away from your school. And so you hear med students who wish their schools gave them more elective time for that very purpose. Likewise, at PCOM these are places residents do want, very much, to go to, in order to interact with the fellowships PDs. As a result > 80% of the residents go on to complete fellowships in pretty competitive areas.

So while it may seem like a lot, it is a "desirable" amount, thus not exactly "a lot" - if you know what I mean chilli bean ;).
 
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I think that fairly common for osteopathic residencies unfortunately.


Due to the caliber of the rotation sites in the PCOM residency, I am of the opinion it is not an unfortune at all, rather a great opportunity to interact with fellowship PDs beyond the LORs and Board scores. I think that explain the high degree of fellowship placement amongst PCOM GS residents.


Ahhh...I think when it was asked above, or generally when we ask how many categoricals per year, we are asking per class.

Sounds like you take 6 categoricals per year...good size program.


Got you!
 
So basically, for all practical purposes, two of those hospitals are the "base" hospital for PCOM GS program - where residents get all of the cases they need except for Pediatrics and Transplant (namely Frankford and Cooper).

Well, Cooper has its own General Surgery residency

So how do the PCOM GS teams shape up in each of these sites? You've got six Chief Residents and only five hospitals. So where are they thrown around?

So in 5 years you are "away" for 10 months...at our non-dominant hospitals, with only 6 months total being outside Philly or truly "away".

True, I suppose. But I guess what's confusing in my mind is how much time you actually spend at each of the sites over the five years and when you show up at, say, Cooper where they've got their own ACGME residency, is there a separate PCOM service from the RWJ service?

And how involved are you when you're at these "away" rotations?
 
Due to the caliber of the rotation sites in the PCOM residency, I am of the opinion it is not an unfortune at all, rather a great opportunity to interact with fellowship PDs beyond the LORs and Board scores. I think that explain the high degree of fellowship placement amongst PCOM GS residents.

My comment was not meant to disparage PCOM or osteopathic residencies, but rather that it can be common to rotate at several different hospitals.

While for some this may very well be a good thing, it can place a lot of stress on residents who have to travel for rotations, especially those with families.

Certainly the ability to meet a lot of people, especially in fellowship, can be a contributing factor in fellowship matching. At any rate, I agree PCOM has a great reputation.
 
The quality of the PCOM GS residency was covered a while back in an osteo thread. It's the greatest thing since sliced bread and going to a bunch of different hospitals is a good experience.
 
The quality of the PCOM GS residency was covered a while back in an osteo thread. It's the greatest thing since sliced bread and going to a bunch of different hospitals is a good experience.

you had to figure that when this topic of discussion was resurrected, it would only be a matter of time before bobo showed up and started making fun of disparaging remarks.

I am a resident at a University based, allopathic residency program (I also happen to be a DO). Our program spends probably about 30% of your 5-year training outside of the main university hospital. We have a VA (7 months), and three private hospitals which we rotate at (14 months). I don't think it detracts from our program at all. In fact, I think that rotating with a variety of different surgeons gives you the opportunity to see many different styles of operating and decide how you're going to do things when you get out. That's a big part of what residency is all about. I rotated at the Frankford hospitals as a medical student, and the residents there crank out a lot of cases with the private practice guys, and they have didactics as well.

My opinion is that the PCOM program produces well trained, competent, professional surgeons (and their fellowship match record would support my opinion).
 
you had to figure that when this topic of discussion was resurrected, it would only be a matter of time before bobo showed up and started making fun of disparaging remarks.

I am a resident at a University based, allopathic residency program (I also happen to be a DO). Our program spends probably about 30% of your 5-year training outside of the main university hospital. We have a VA (7 months), and three private hospitals which we rotate at (14 months). I don't think it detracts from our program at all. In fact, I think that rotating with a variety of different surgeons gives you the opportunity to see many different styles of operating and decide how you're going to do things when you get out. That's a big part of what residency is all about. I rotated at the Frankford hospitals as a medical student, and the residents there crank out a lot of cases with the private practice guys, and they have didactics as well.

My opinion is that the PCOM program produces well trained, competent, professional surgeons (and their fellowship match record would support my opinion).

Friend, settle down. I am a DO and I went to PCOM. I am sure their surgical training is quite good.
 
Well, Cooper has its own General Surgery residency

So how do the PCOM GS teams shape up in each of these sites? You've got six Chief Residents and only five hospitals. So where are they thrown around?

Not sure, quite well I would think. It is not unprecedented, at least in the NE to have hospitals with both allo and osteo residencies in the same specialty.



True, I suppose. But I guess what's confusing in my mind is how much time you actually spend at each of the sites over the five years and when you show up at, say, Cooper where they've got their own ACGME residency, is there a separate PCOM service from the RWJ service?

And how involved are you when you're at these "away" rotations?

I think PCOM residents are as involved as any other residents, our stats show our seniors having in excess of 1200 logged cases.
 
My comment was not meant to disparage PCOM or osteopathic residencies, but rather that it can be common to rotate at several different hospitals.

I am sure it didn't hon, [please don't sue me for sexual harrasment for honying you, it's a bad habit :)]

While for some this may very well be a good thing, it can place a lot of stress on residents who have to travel for rotations, especially those with families.

No doubt, like any other program it has its advantages and disadvantages. The good think is the aways are not that much away. The average commuter in America, with a family probably already does 1 hr + of commuting anyway. But I agree, families would feel the commute more than single residents.
 
I am sure it didn't hon, [please don't sue me for sexual harrasment for honying you, it's a bad habit :)]

I beg to differ...an annoying habit of speech is something that easily slips out and is hard to catch before its said. Once said, you can't take it back. Something typewritten is generally thought out AND can be edited, if something inappropriate is posted.

Nonetheless, I do not take offense but I place these comments in the same category as patients who call me by my first name, inappropriate at the least, possibly offensive at best.

No doubt, like any other program it has its advantages and disadvantages. The good think is the aways are not that much away. The average commuter in America, with a family probably already does 1 hr + of commuting anyway. But I agree, families would feel the commute more than single residents.

The "average commuter" does not work 80+ hours per week. And even with an hour commute (which is only "average" in urban settings), they are still home before 6:00-7:00 pm.

I have no doubts that it is valuable to rotate at other hospitals. But when you are talking about a commute of an hour daily each way, you are talking about an extra 12-14 hours per week on top of the 80+ already worked. It doesn't matter whether or not you are single or have a family...it becomes a problem, possibly a dangerous one.
 
I beg to differ...an annoying habit of speech is something that easily slips out and is hard to catch before its said. Once said, you can't take it back. Something typewritten is generally thought out AND can be edited, if something inappropriate is posted.

Not all habits of speech are of the kind that slip out. Some are conscious and voluntary habits of speech.

Nonetheless, I do not take offense but I place these comments in the same category as patients who call me by my first name, inappropriate at the least, possibly offensive at best.

I used to do the same, until I realized some of the people who called me hon or dear, etc had the best intention at heart and were really not counting on me being so overly sensitive. I have learned to actually enjoy it, reason why I sometimes use it. I know you didn't but I did not mean for you to take it as an offense :love:

The "average commuter" does not work 80+ hours per week. And even with an hour commute (which is only "average" in urban settings), they are still home before 6:00-7:00 pm.

I have no doubts that it is valuable to rotate at other hospitals. But when you are talking about a commute of an hour daily each way, you are talking about an extra 12-14 hours per week on top of the 80+ already worked. It doesn't matter whether or not you are single or have a family...it becomes a problem, possibly a dangerous one.


The average commuter in the U.S. does 46 minutes plus per day:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/28504/Workers-Average-Commute-RoundTrip-Minutes-Typical-Day.aspx


So we are talking an extra 15 - 20 minutes? for some months during the residency. Not a paramount signficance in the big scheme of things when compared to other residents if you ask me.
 
The average commuter in the U.S. does 46 minutes plus per day:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/28504/Workers-Average-Commute-RoundTrip-Minutes-Typical-Day.aspx


So we are talking an extra 15 - 20 minutes? for some months during the residency. Not a paramount signficance in the big scheme of things when compared to other residents if you ask me.

That data states that 46 minutes is the mean length of the total commute time, there-and-back.

Winged Scapula is talking about commuting an hour EACH WAY, which is an extra 74 minutes a day. That's not insignificant.
 
Not all habits of speech are of the kind that slip out. Some are conscious and voluntary habits of speech.

Ok...I'll buy that.

I used to do the same, until I realized some of the people who called me hon or dear, etc had the best intention at heart and were really not counting on me being so overly sensitive. I have learned to actually enjoy it, reason why I sometimes use it. I know you didn't but I did not mean for you to take it as an offense :love:

If you'll allow me a bit of advice here...I am an attending surgeon. I worked hard to get here and it can be frustrating to have people call me honey, dear, nurse, Kim, whatever....when my male colleagues would never be called anything but Doctor.

I am not personally offended, but there are MANY of my female colleagues and even males, who WOULD be. When men call women by terms of endearment in the workplace, regardless of their intent, it has the connotation of derogation and subjugation of the position we have worked hard to obtain. It is even a little annoying when women do it because there is still the idea that its ok to call a female physician by her first name when you would never consider doing that to her male colleagues.

This is is an internet forum so of course we are going to be more casual and while you might feel comfortable referring to me as "hon" here, I think you would agree that it would be unusual and perhaps inappropriate to do in the workplace. I do not expect people here to call me Doctor because this is not the workplace, but at the same time, I find it a bit familiar for someone to refer to me in such terms, especially if they don't know me IRL.


The average commuter in the U.S. does 46 minutes plus per day:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/28504/Workers-Average-Commute-RoundTrip-Minutes-Typical-Day.aspx

So we are talking an extra 15 - 20 minutes? for some months during the residency. Not a paramount signficance in the big scheme of things when compared to other residents if you ask me.

I think it is...whether we are talking about an hour each way (which was stated earlier that some of the sites were) or total. Most residents choose their living quarters as to be fairly close to their residency hospital. If you are being asked to drive 45 minutes extra per day (or whatever the distance is), it quickly adds up...especially when post call. I lived 7 miles away from the hospital during residency and 1 mile during fellowship...I cannot imagine getting on a expressway and driving 45 minutes postcall. We had a 30 minute commute to our VA...each way and it was a nightmare, especially in winter to be driving that when exhausted.

My point is that its not a big deal if you are rotating at other hospitals in the same city and your commute isn't really any different. BUT if they are asking you to go to another city , then I do think its a problem, or at least one residents need to keep in mind.

I get the sense that you and others think this is a DO vs MD argument which it most assuredly is not. I've already commented that I've heard PCOM is an excellent residency but the issue of having to commute for rotations should be one that is seriously considered.
 
That data states that 46 minutes is the mean length of the total commute time, there-and-back.

Winged Scapula is talking about commuting an hour EACH WAY, which is an extra 74 minutes a day. That's not insignificant.

I meant to use the other source I found from the U.S. census that had about 30 minutes each way.

Nonetheless, based on the 46 both way one - so you are out of your home, say 11 hours a day in a surgical residency, is an extra 74 minutes a day, to transport yourself, that significant as to pass on a good opportunity to train? I like to think it isn't.
 
Ok...I'll buy that.



If you'll allow me a bit of advice here...I am an attending surgeon. I worked hard to get here and it can be frustrating to have people call me honey, dear, nurse, Kim, whatever....when my male colleagues would never be called anything but Doctor.

I am not personally offended, but there are MANY of my female colleagues and even males, who WOULD be. When men call women by terms of endearment in the workplace, regardless of their intent, it has the connotation of derogation and subjugation of the position we have worked hard to obtain. It is even a little annoying when women do it because there is still the idea that its ok to call a female physician by her first name when you would never consider doing that to her male colleagues.

This is is an internet forum so of course we are going to be more casual and while you might feel comfortable referring to me as "hon" here, I think you would agree that it would be unusual and perhaps inappropriate to do in the workplace. I do not expect people here to call me Doctor because this is not the workplace, but at the same time, I find it a bit familiar for someone to refer to me in such terms, especially if they don't know me IRL.


Interestingly, as I mentioned before, I used to be as anal as you described about the use of "hon", "dear", etc. Even more interestingly, it was working with mostly women that I learned [or rather taught] to look beyond than anality I used to judge those who addressed me that way.

I doubt anyone who has gotten minimally far in this field, would'nt know not to use those terms IRL. Nonetheless, thank you for your well-intentioned advice.

WS, throughout the years, I have enjoyed your posts, your humor and I have admired your participation on SDN. Of all people on SDN, you would have been the last person I would have expected to even remotely misinterpret my use of the word in question. Nonetheless, I retain my position, and am done explaining the innocuity of the word in its proper context.



I think it is...whether we are talking about an hour each way (which was stated earlier that some of the sites were) or total. Most residents choose their living quarters as to be fairly close to their residency hospital. If you are being asked to drive 45 minutes extra per day (or whatever the distance is), it quickly adds up...especially when post call. I lived 7 miles away from the hospital during residency and 1 mile during fellowship...I cannot imagine getting on a expressway and driving 45 minutes postcall. We had a 30 minute commute to our VA...each way and it was a nightmare, especially in winter to be driving that when exhausted.

I can only imagine. The driving distance is indoubtedly not an advantage of the program. However, how much driving is the average general surgery resident in the U.S. driving each day? I find it hard to believe that it would be less than 30 minutes in average each way.

My point is that its not a big deal if you are rotating at other hospitals in the same city and your commute isn't really any different. BUT if they are asking you to go to another city , then I do think its a problem, or at least one residents need to keep in mind.

As I have concurred with before, it is by no means an advantage. However, I beg to differ that in the big scheme of things it is a huge issue. Much less in view of the counterpart advantages of the program.

I get the sense that you and others think this is a DO vs MD argument which it most assuredly is not. I've already commented that I've heard PCOM is an excellent residency but the issue of having to commute for rotations should be one that is seriously considered.


Not in what respects me, the DO vs MD issues has not crossed my mind while at this thread. Adding an extra 60 - 75 minutes of drive a day is clearly not a desirable trait of a program, however it is, in my opinion one of those undesirables whose significance is by far exceeded by the weight of the advantages of the PCOM GS program.
 
Medhacker, I think an extra hour drive time a day is horrible. There are plenty of training programs that are at least equivalent to "PCOM" that do not require their residents to drive this far to get to work. I think that is the point that folks here are making.

Also, I object to the tone of your posts, and your argumentative stance with regards to the use of the term "hon". KC is a very reasonable person, an attending surgeon, and a very important member of the SDN community. I feel that you should be more respectful to her.

Thank you. Have a nice day.
 
Plus your posts arguiing over minutia are making what should be an informative thread incredibly boring to read.
 
Nonetheless, based on the 46 both way one - so you are out of your home, say 11 hours a day in a surgical residency, is an extra 74 minutes a day, to transport yourself, that significant as to pass on a good opportunity to train? I like to think it isn't.

Wait, wait, wait.

What year are you in med school? I gather from other posts that you're a 2nd year.

You may "like to think" that 74 minutes of transportation time "isn't that significant," but you'd be wrong. VERY VERY wrong.

I am a third year med student at another med school in Philadelphia (obviously, not PCOM). I live out in the suburbs, where it is cheaper. It takes me about an hour to get to campus each day (I don't drive, I generally take SEPTA.)

Sweet mother of God, if it wasn't so cheap to live out in the suburbs, I'd move to Center City in a heartbeat. You haven't been on rotations, so you don't know how exhausted you can be after being on call. It wasn't so bad on psych or outpatient stuff, but on ob/gyn and surgery...oh my God. I considered pitching a tent in the cafeteria and just living in the hospital, just so I wouldn't have to commute.

On OB/gyn, I'd stumble to the train station, sit on the train, and pass out. I'd wake up discombobulated and unsure of where I was. Driving would be more convenient (because I wouldn't have to wait for a train), but I'd probably have had an accident by now.

I'd try to read on the train, or do work, but that rarely panned out. Trying to read a textbook on a shaky train would make my sleep-deprivation headache worse. Obviously, if you're driving, then trying to study or do work during your commute time is impossible.

If I had to do that much commuting as a surgery or ob/gyn resident, I'd shoot myself. Forget it.

The driving distance is indoubtedly not an advantage of the program. However, how much driving is the average general surgery resident in the U.S. driving each day? I find it hard to believe that it would be less than 30 minutes in average each way.

If the average general surgery resident had to drive > 15 minutes each day to get to work, the resident drop-out rate would shoot up exponentially. I'm not kidding - commuting to work during residency doesn't sound so bad in the abstract, but wait until you actually have to do it.

I mean - use your head. The motto in surgery is "Eat when you can, sleep when you can, pee when you can." Do you think that 74 minutes is such a trivial amount in such a specialty?

I'm sure that PCOM's surgery program is great. PCOM is a good school that produces good physicians. But you're being naive (or seriously in denial) if you don't think that being forced to commute so much is not a significant downside to a program, no matter how good the training may be.

I think it is...whether we are talking about an hour each way (which was stated earlier that some of the sites were) or total. Most residents choose their living quarters as to be fairly close to their residency hospital. If you are being asked to drive 45 minutes extra per day (or whatever the distance is), it quickly adds up...especially when post call. I lived 7 miles away from the hospital during residency and 1 mile during fellowship...I cannot imagine getting on a expressway and driving 45 minutes postcall. We had a 30 minute commute to our VA...each way and it was a nightmare, especially in winter to be driving that when exhausted.

My point is that its not a big deal if you are rotating at other hospitals in the same city and your commute isn't really any different. BUT if they are asking you to go to another city , then I do think its a problem, or at least one residents need to keep in mind.

Listen to her! She's experienced and reasonable!!
 
Medhacker, I think an extra hour drive time a day is horrible. There are plenty of training programs that are at least equivalent to "PCOM" that do not require their residents to drive this far to get to work. I think that is the point that folks here are making.

I am sure you can find programs where your daily drive will be 3 minutes, however to someone who prefers to pursue the PCOM program, or for someone whose only opportunity to do a similar program is PCOM I am making my point that the extra time is not that significant as to pass on a great educational opportunity.

Also, I object to the tone of your posts, and your argumentative stance with regards to the use of the term "hon". KC is a very reasonable person, an attending surgeon, and a very important member of the SDN community. I feel that you should be more respectful to her.

Thank you. Have a nice day.

That is your opinion and, I guess, your right to object anything you wish. The issue was between KC and me, as such I have made my last stance on that issue, perhaps you should leave it at that. In addition, I would hope you take such a stance not only for someone who is an attending surgeon, or a very important member of SDN but for anyone in general. If I have argumented my position it is because I disagree with the qualification of my comment as disrespectful (irrespective of how many people believe it otherwise), and also because I simply love to argue :)
 
Plus your posts arguiing over minutia are making what should be an informative thread incredibly boring to read.


For a boring thread you sure keep on coming back ;)
 
Wait, wait, wait.

What year are you in med school? I gather from other posts that you're a 2nd year.

You may "like to think" that 74 minutes of transportation time "isn't that significant," but you'd be wrong. VERY VERY wrong.

Come on smq123 I did drive and commute before medical school... it's not like one starts driving after graduation - I know a thing or two about commuting after a demanding job, or two or three a day.


I am a third year med student at another med school in Philadelphia (obviously, not PCOM). I live out in the suburbs, where it is cheaper. It takes me about an hour to get to campus each day (I don't drive, I generally take SEPTA.)

Sweet mother of God, if it wasn't so cheap to live out in the suburbs, I'd move to Center City in a heartbeat. You haven't been on rotations, so you don't know how exhausted you can be after being on call. It wasn't so bad on psych or outpatient stuff, but on ob/gyn and surgery...oh my God. I considered pitching a tent in the cafeteria and just living in the hospital, just so I wouldn't have to commute.

I am not denying one can be exhausted. In fact, exhaustion after work is not limited to medical students, residents, physicians smq123. Also, if one talks to people who have been through medical school, and had jobs before medical school, one can get an idea of what one will face during rotations. Particularly if one is a nontrad who has had more than two jobs, family, church etc. So when I express my opinion that it is not that significant, I am not just blowing smoke. I am giving an opinion with enough basis to deem it reasonable. If I am right or wrong isn't that important, it's only my opinion.


On OB/gyn, I'd stumble to the train station, sit on the train, and pass out. I'd wake up discombobulated and unsure of where I was. Driving would be more convenient (because I wouldn't have to wait for a train), but I'd probably have had an accident by now.

I'd try to read on the train, or do work, but that rarely panned out. Trying to read a textbook on a shaky train would make my sleep-deprivation headache worse. Obviously, if you're driving, then trying to study or do work during your commute time is impossible.

If I had to do that much commuting as a surgery or ob/gyn resident, I'd shoot myself. Forget it.

While the ammount of commute we are talking about isn't a bundle of joy, year after year, many residents go through it successfully and even manage to land some pretty nice fellowships. So, while to you it may seem like an issue to get shot over, many many people before have undertaken it and continue to do so today. My point is, it seems to be doable, not exactly something to get shot over.




If the average general surgery resident had to drive > 15 minutes each day to get to work, the resident drop-out rate would shoot up exponentially. I'm not kidding - commuting to work during residency doesn't sound so bad in the abstract, but wait until you actually have to do it.

PCOM'S GS completion rate is almost 100% if not 100% (I would have to look it up though) so the prediction has not become true, and I suspect it won't in the future.


I mean - use your head. The motto in surgery is "Eat when you can, sleep when you can, pee when you can." Do you think that 74 minutes is such a trivial amount in such a specialty?

no doubt, if we extrapolate extremes, even 2 minutes may be seen as greatly significant. In the great scheme of things, I think 74 minutes a day, while not negligible, it is hardly something to (to use your own words) get shot over.

I'm sure that PCOM's surgery program is great. PCOM is a good school that produces good physicians. But you're being naive (or seriously in denial) if you don't think that being forced to commute so much is not a significant downside to a program, no matter how good the training may be.


smq123, that is your opinion, which I truly respect. While here we are arguing about the significance of the travel time during a number of months, PCOM'S GS program grows its training spots every year, residents graduate successfully, move on to highly desirable fellowships, the program advances its reach qualifying for double accreditation (AOA/ACGME), its residents (from first hand experience) seem well-adapted guys in general, they [seniors] seem to log more than 1200 cases and so far I have heard from them the commute while no cake, it isn't that significant.


So, really, I am giving you my opinion and that which I have heard from others. We are free to speculate how significant it really is, all I am doing is responding to the OP and to any question I may happen to know the answer to.
 
Come on smq123 I did drive and commute before medical school... it's not like one starts driving after graduation - I know a thing or two about commuting after a demanding job, or two or three a day.

I am not denying one can be exhausted. In fact, exhaustion after work is not limited to medical students, residents, physicians smq123. Also, if one talks to people who have been through medical school, and had jobs before medical school, one can get an idea of what one will face during rotations. Particularly if one is a nontrad who has had more than two jobs, family, church etc.

You know, it's funny. There are lots of nontrads in my school and on my rotations. I never heard any of them say while on surgery, "Boy, having had a career before med school really prepared me for this!" They were all very tired. Yes, you had a job before med school, and you had to commute.

At your previous job, though, did you have to stand on your feet for 12 hours a day? Were you required to be AT WORK by 5 AM each morning? (Which means waking up at 3:30 and being in your car by 4 AM?) At your previous job, were you suddenly called down to the ER at 2:30 AM to evaluate an acute abdomen? At your previous job, did you have 2-3 hours worth of reading to do each night? At your previous job, were you frequently faced with the odd dilemma of "I have 5 minutes - should I use that time to cram down a sandwich, lean against a wall and rest my eyes, or go to the bathroom?"

I appreciate that you're a nontrad. But it doesn't mean that you know what a surgical residency is like.

While the ammount of commute we are talking about isn't a bundle of joy, year after year, many residents go through it successfully and even manage to land some pretty nice fellowships. So, while to you it may seem like an issue to get shot over, many many people before have undertaken it and continue to do so today. My point is, it seems to be doable, not exactly something to get shot over.

Of course it's doable. But I think that anyone dismissing the massive amount of commuting required is not looking at the situation objectively.

Look, medhacker - I can appreciate that you're proud of PCOM and its gen surg program. I can even assume that you're hoping to gain entrance into PCOM's gen surg program. It's a good program, and it will train you well. If you're willing to commute that much, that's great. But, for other people, I think that it is very important to mention how much commuting is involved. Dismissing it by saying that getting to train at Geisinger and MSK is worth it - it's up to other people to figure out if that's true in their case.

Again, please, wait until you actually start third year - and see how your surgery and ob/gyn rotations go before saying that you know how hard it is. After 4 and one-half straight months of ob/gyn - surgical subspecialties - surgery, I would say that commuting made those months harder than they could have been. I loved those rotations - don't get me wrong - and I certainly never told my residents that I lived so far away (so that they wouldn't treat me any differently and cut me any slack). But it was very, very, very hard, and very crazy. (And all of these rotations were at the same hospital! It would have been even crazier if I were shuttling between different hospitals.)

no doubt, if we extrapolate extremes, even 2 minutes may be seen as greatly significant. In the great scheme of things, I think 74 minutes a day, while not negligible, it is hardly something to (to use your own words) get shot over.

No offense - but now I KNOW that you're a 1st or 2nd year. No third year student who has done surgery would say that "74 minutes a day" is no big deal. :rolleyes:
 
You know, it's funny. There are lots of nontrads in my school and on my rotations. I never heard any of them say while on surgery, "Boy, having had a career before med school really prepared me for this!" They were all very tired. Yes, you had a job before med school, and you had to commute.

smq123, hundreds of thousands people have more than one job they have to go daily. No one said it would prepare you for a surgical experience. It was mentioned to reasonably demonstrate medical professionals are not the only ones with exhaustive daily work and a long commute.


At your previous job, though, did you have to stand on your feet for 12 hours a day? Were you required to be AT WORK by 5 AM each morning? (Which means waking up at 3:30 and being in your car by 4 AM?) At your previous job, were you suddenly called down to the ER at 2:30 AM to evaluate an acute abdomen? At your previous job, did you have 2-3 hours worth of reading to do each night? At your previous job, were you frequently faced with the odd dilemma of "I have 5 minutes - should I use that time to cram down a sandwich, lean against a wall and rest my eyes, or go to the bathroom?"

Yes to most the things you said, and even some other undesirable ones. I will not say what it was as it will ruin whatever is left of my anonymity on SDN :)

I appreciate that you're a nontrad. But it doesn't mean that you know what a surgical residency is like.

I never said I did, I said I knew what commuting with comparable work demand was like - based on comparison with other fellow nontrads who have done rotations and have had similar past lifes to mine.



Of course it's doable. But I think that anyone dismissing the massive amount of commuting required is not looking at the situation objectively.

I am not dismissing it, I am stating my opinion, that I believe while the commute is not a bundle of joy it needs not be blown out of proportion as something unmanageable.

Look, medhacker - I can appreciate that you're proud of PCOM and its gen surg program. I can even assume that you're hoping to gain entrance into PCOM's gen surg program. It's a good program, and it will train you well. If you're willing to commute that much, that's great. But, for other people, I think that it is very important to mention how much commuting is involved. Dismissing it by saying that getting to train at Geisinger and MSK is worth it - it's up to other people to figure out if that's true in their case.

So stating my opinion that the commute is not too significant is dismissing the inherent difficulty with such a commute? the world isn't that black and white.

I do value the PCOM GS program, however, it is not my top choice. I would prefer training at JMH in Miami and even they have their share of commute. ACGME program # 4401121074 , 2nd year 1.3 months of commute (from "base hospital) of about 40 minutes each way [of course traffic jam exclusive]. 3rd year, 2 months rotation at another site about 25 minutes away [traffic jam exclusive]. 4th year, 2 months rotation at another site about 45 minutes each way [traffic jam exclusive].

They also seem to have a nice program, nice completion %, and I dare to say that there's a lot of programs out there where, despite the pain of residency as you have so eloquently described it, residents have a good amount of commute. Nonetheless, year after year people do it. I think if it was that significant, we would not see them succeeding. Would they prefer their commute was shorter, sure, I would think so. But, and I reiterate, in the big scheme of things, it seems that it is not that significant. Should it be considered? definitely.


Again, please, wait until you actually start third year - and see how your surgery and ob/gyn rotations go before saying that you know how hard it is. After 4 and one-half straight months of ob/gyn - surgical subspecialties - surgery, I would say that commuting made those months harder than they could have been. I loved those rotations - don't get me wrong - and I certainly never told my residents that I lived so far away (so that they wouldn't treat me any differently and cut me any slack). But it was very, very, very hard, and very crazy. (And all of these rotations were at the same hospital! It would have been even crazier if I were shuttling between different hospitals.)



No offense - but now I KNOW that you're a 1st or 2nd year. No third year student who has done surgery would say that "74 minutes a day" is no big deal. :rolleyes:

No offense at all. It is senior, 4th, and 3rd year residents who have stated to me, that it isn't that significant smq123.
 
Nonetheless, based on the 46 both way one - so you are out of your home, say 11 hours a day in a surgical residency, is an extra 74 minutes a day, to transport yourself, that significant as to pass on a good opportunity to train? I like to think it isn't.

An extra 74 x 6 = 444 minutes, or 7.4 hours a week? That's a lot! :eek:

You're usually so busy as a resident that an extra 7 hours a week would be heaven.

BTW, long commutes aren't an option when you start to take home call. You have to live close to the hospital, lest you find yourself in-house every time you take home call.

We're not even considering the potential dangers of an extended, hour-long drive from the hospital back home when you're exhausted post-call.
 
It is impossible to argue against anyone in support of the PCOM GS program over any point, no matter how minor. Gotta be the biggest bunch of blowhards ever. A 74 minute commute flat out sucks eggs.
 
At your previous job, were you frequently faced with the odd dilemma of "I have 5 minutes - should I use that time to cram down a sandwich, lean against a wall and rest my eyes, or go to the bathroom?"

Any reason why you can't have a sandwich and use the bathroom at the same time? :) Remember to try and be a two-handed surgeon.
 
Any reason why you can't have a sandwich and use the bathroom at the same time? :) Remember to try and be a two-handed surgeon.

:laugh: Thanks for the advice.

Actually, yes, there IS a good reason why I can't have a sandwich and use the bathroom at the same time. But, trust me, you don't want me to explain myself.
 
I am not dismissing it, I am stating my opinion, that I believe while the commute is not a bundle of joy it needs not be blown out of proportion as something unmanageable.

I'm with smq. An extra 74 min a day sucks hard, and I'd only choose that if I had absolutely no other choice. smq is also right in saying that 74 min might not seem bad in theory, but in practice it is absolutely horrendous. I've done it during 3rd year, and I'll do everything in my power to not do it again.
 
. Likewise, at PCOM these are places residents do want, very much, to go to, in order to interact with the fellowships PDs. As a result > 80% of the residents go on to complete fellowships in pretty competitive areas.
If you do a DO residency
followed by ACGME fellowship
leads to problems sitting for your fellowship boards, at least in critical care or colon-rectal, does it not?

so who cares how many PD's you know?

BTW- I know a few PCOMers and they seem solid
 
. Likewise, at PCOM these are places residents do want, very much, to go to, in order to interact with the fellowships PDs. As a result > 80% of the residents go on to complete fellowships in pretty competitive areas.

If you do a DO residency
followed by ACGME fellowship
leads to problems sitting for your fellowship boards, at least in critical care or colon-rectal, does it not?

so who cares how many PD's you know?

BTW- I know a few PCOMers and they seem solid

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Chief of Trauma at Columbia in NYC is a DO who did GS residency at St. Barnabas (a DO program) and the Surgical Critical-Care at Shock Trauma...I would imagine he's all set with his fellowship boards...
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Chief of Trauma at Columbia in NYC is a DO who did GS residency at St. Barnabas (a DO program) and the Surgical Critical-Care at Shock Trauma...I would imagine he's all set with his fellowship boards...

He is Board Certified by the American Osteopathic Board of Surgery for his residency and by the Osteopathic Board of Critical Care for his fellowship. Generally, when doing a non-osteopathic fellowship, applicants need to make sure that they will be board eligible for that specialty - the Osteo Board often gives credit for allopathic fellowships, especially when they do not have a corollary program. There is no board for Trauma Surgery.
 
Right. Doing a DO residency and then an ACGME fellowship WILL NOT qualify you for the American Board of Surgery CAQ or for board certification if that specialty has such a board.
 
There is no board for Trauma Surgery.

Point taken, I meant boarded in Critical Care. My point (which you much more eloquently explained) was that even though he did an DO residency and an MD fellowship he's probably all set with his boards and whatnot...
 
Point taken, I meant boarded in Critical Care. My point (which you much more eloquently explained) was that even though he did an DO residency and an MD fellowship he's probably all set with his boards and whatnot...

I knew that's what you meant.

The critical issue for osteopaths pursuing allopathic fellowships is to make sure that they can get Board Certified...either by the ABS or osteopathic affiliate. I'm not sure students understand that unless they do an allopathic residency, they cannot be BC by an allopathic body and same goes for the osteopathic boards unless they are awarded reciprocity.
 
By the way, what's the point of an osteopathic residency becoming dual-accredited by both the AOA and the ACGME?

I would think that an ACGME residency gaining dual-accreditation is only good for the osteopaths in said program, but I see no advantage for an already osteopathic program becoming ACGME accredited. Do you mean that, for example, the residency at PCOM would be part of the American Board of Surgery and thus their grads will qualify for ABS Board Certification?
 
By the way, what's the point of an osteopathic residency becoming dual-accredited by both the AOA and the ACGME?

I would think that an ACGME residency gaining dual-accreditation is only good for the osteopaths in said program, but I see no advantage for an already osteopathic program becoming ACGME accredited. Do you mean that, for example, the residency at PCOM would be part of the American Board of Surgery and thus their grads will qualify for ABS Board Certification?

Who ya talking to?

I simply meant that if you do a DO residency and an MD fellowship that you cannot be BC in that specialty unless you get permission from the AOA (or whomever award their BC). I don't see the need for a dual accreditation scheme...it should be one system, IMHO.
 
Who ya talking to?

I simply meant that if you do a DO residency and an MD fellowship that you cannot be BC in that specialty unless you get permission from the AOA (or whomever award their BC). I don't see the need for a dual accreditation scheme...it should be one system, IMHO.

It should also be one match...but judging from what my fiance (a 3rd year DO student) is going through right now, thats not happening any time soon. I would venture to guess that the match will become the same at the same time as accreditation becomes the same, which won't happen until the 5 states (West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Oklahoma, Michigan, and Florida) that require DOs to do a year of rotating internship stop requiring that...
 
Who ya talking to?

I simply meant that if you do a DO residency and an MD fellowship that you cannot be BC in that specialty unless you get permission from the AOA (or whomever award their BC). I don't see the need for a dual accreditation scheme...it should be one system, IMHO.

To the PCOM resident who said that the program was in the process of being dual-accredited. Sorry. Can't quote when I respond via my Blackberry. :) Gotta do something to kill the time while riding the train.
 
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